Do not install games from sunnygames...

[Dan MacDonald]

http://www.sunnygames.com/skyfire.html

I tried their latest games skyfire because the screenshots looked decent. When i played it I was apalled at the game design, it was horried. The controls would only respond to one arrow key at a time.

I didn't get it until a couple hours later spyware and searchbars started poping up all over the place. Not cool.

[Chris Evans]

Wow really?

Doesn't one of the developers post here? He posted his Bugix beta for feedback a few months back.

I wonder what made them turn to Spyware all of a sudden...

[Mike Boeh]

Can anyone confirm this? It would be really surprising... Looks like he has several new games out...

[Dan MacDonald]

I double checked, both times i got something called "Favoriteman" and another called "NetPal" .

[anothersomething]

Sunny Games is apparently trying to make a little money with adware. NetPal isn't that bad from what I have seen. Check out http://www.justfreegames.com/

They seem to be doing well with google ads (their alexa rank has sky-rocketed)

Also, spyware != adware

edit: I don't know what favoriteman is, but NetPal is developed by http://www.addictivetechnologies.com.

[BantamCityGames]

Dan, could it be a hacked version of the game you downloaded? or do you think it was integrated by design? He posts here pretty often I think, I'd like to hear what he has to say before I condemn him, but I hate to think that a good 'ol indie would purposely do this... :confused:

[anothersomething]

WHAT HAS HE DONE? You guys act like adware is a bad thing. It isn't if he tells you in the license agreement. If he sneaks it on to your PC, then i'd be happy to call him an evil moron who deserves to rot in hell. If he doesn't, he's a perfectly honest person trying to make a living. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ADWARE. THERE IS ONLY SOMETHING WRONG WITH PEOPLE WHO SNEAK IT ON TO YOUR PC.

[FlySim]

Who reads all of the license agreement?
If they put it in plain sight near the download link, then fine.
Otherwise, I feel its sneaky and I would never download or buy
a game from that site. I also think adware/spyware will hurt all
of us - makes people hesitant to download and try games.

-J.R.

[anothersomething]

Who reads all of the license agreement?
If they put it in plain sight near the download link, then fine.
Otherwise, I feel its sneaky and I would never download or buy
a game from that site. I also think adware/spyware will hurt all
of us - makes people hesitant to download and try games.

-J.R.

How will adware and spyware hurt all of us? It sure hasn't hurt me... I have WhenU's adware installed, it's one of the most useful apps ever. (Whenever you search or buy something online it shows you competing products. If they are a better deal, you can buy them. )

SOME adware is bad. But not all.

Also, you should read the TOS. If you don't you are agreeing to whatever it says anyway. I don't believe in software pirating (I used to have tons of illegal stuff on my PC, but soon I figured out programmers had to eat, so I either bought it, or removed it) or breaking license agreements on programs.

I think that if someone gives you a 10 page license agreement though, that's sort of nasty. I think it should be kepy under 1 page.

[Andy]

@Another

I suppose ALL adware has terrible influence on whole our business. Amount of peoples don't trust anymore to any developers - don't download and don't buy anything.

You were stating in the previous thread about your plans (I hope I'm wrong) to flood your upcoming versions with amount of direct spyware. So, looks like this is not any problem for your mentality. But believe me - Spyware and Adware are exactly the way how the shareware business will die.

[anothersomething]

lol, are you talking about the post Dan MacDonald locked? I'm not a shareware game developer, I just figured it might be a good idea to stop piracy. (great way to pay back those evil thiefs anyway)

Also, If shareware were to be killed by adware, who cares? Instead of selling your games, you'd bundle them with eZula or WhenU, and give them away for free. You'd make more than you ever would with shareware, and people would get top-quality games for free. All the evil adware companies would go out of business because no one would use them, and people would learn to start reading license agreements.

And people don't trust developers anymore? Almost everything on download.com that isn't for sale is bundled with adware, yet download.com is still one of the most popular sites on the net (And people there seem to HATE shareware. They had an old poll asking how long trial limitations should be, and most said "More than 60 days.")

I usually don't keep any software on my PC for longer than 60 days. (Other than game dev tools and firefox)

[oNyx]

>THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ADWARE.

That's must be the ulitmate truth, because it's written with the subtle power of CAPSLOCK.

Spyware/Adware is ok if it's clearly written next to the download link like they did with the adware sponsered divx pro version (the other options were free and full version for somewhat like $20).

Well, the thing is - if it's bundled with spy/adware it's NOT free, but hey... it's just lying - no problem for you, right? ;)

[anothersomething]

>THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ADWARE.

That's must be the ulitmate truth, because it's written with the subtle power of CAPSLOCK.

Spyware/Adware is ok if it's clearly written next to the download link like they did with the adware sponsered divx pro version (the other options were free and full version for somewhat like $20).

Well, the thing is - if it's bundled with spy/adware it's NOT free, but hey... it's just lying - no problem for you, right? ;)

I actually used the shift key there.

Free of what? It's free of charge. But not free of advertisements. Besides, look at the shareware game market. "Free Game Downloads - Dexterity Software", "Free Computer Game Downloads" (from retro64), etc...

If that isn't lying, then I don't know what the definition of "lying" is.

I guess it would be a good idea putting something like "Downloads on this site are sponsored by company1.com, company2.com, and company3.com" in the footer of your page, or next to the download link.

[Dan MacDonald]

All I know as a user is that after installing the game I started getting popups that appeared to be helpful messages "your computer is trying to send your personal information over the internet, click yes to allow blahblah to protect your machine" but for all I know if I click anything on the dialog its going to run some trojan or worse on my machine...

I checked the EULA and the Privacy agreement on sunnygames, no mention was made of installing or right to install anything but the game. Not only that they were popping up faster then I could close them. Regardless of if the programs are "good" or "bad" addware/spyware I don't think game developers have any right to install them on my machine. If they need to make money make better games or get out of the business, last I checked there was still some value to ethics.

http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=7583

I downloaded the game directly from the site so I don't think there's any chance I got a corrupted/compromised build.

AnotherSomething: What exactly do you think you are playing when you download a game demo from one of the sites you listed, and how much do you pay?

[anothersomething]

Dan, I'm playing a demo version of the game. A game that you have to pay for isn't free. I am not playing the full version of the game. I have to pay for that.

If there was nothing in the EULA/TOS/Privacy Policy, and there was adware in the game, then yes, they are filthy pieces of trash.

Also, there are numerous honest and unscummy game developers who'll bundle adware with their games. Why should you get to play someones games that they put a lot of time and effort into for free? You only should if they are compensated fairly, and in the opinions of some, adware IS fair compensation. I downloaded j-ball from justfreegames.com, it was quite good. Not good enough to sell, but it is worth the adware that I got from it. However, since they didn't tell me about the adware in the first place, they are scum.

[Holmqvist]

How will adware and spyware hurt all of us? It sure hasn't hurt me...
Well I tell u this much I don't think anyone from this forum (unless there was some other explanation) will be going to sunnygames to download games in a hurry. Adware has just efficiently scared us away, and I doubt that everyone else are OK with adware..

If a customer has a bad experience with one small software company, they might not trust another one the next time.

Most people here (I hope) don't use adware for the same reason they don't spam, they would get bad reputation, bother people and maybe violate their ethics.

/ Jacob
PS. I hate adware.. oh, and spam. DS.

[Jack Norton]

The day I'll put adware in my games it will mean that I'll want to definitely close my indie business... hope that day is still far :D

[SyneRyder]

I don't know what favoriteman is...
Always helps to check Google before posting: Pest Patrol entry for FavoriteMan (http://www.pestpatrol.com/PestInfo/F/FavoriteMan.asp)

Highlights include:
FavoriteMan seems to try to find your e-mail address on installation to send to its controlling servers.
Adds advertisers' web sites to the Favorites menu.
The software executes any arbitrary code which the controlling servers points it to.

The Pest Patrol entry for NetPal (http://www.pestpatrol.com/PestInfo/N/NetPal.asp) is also concerning:
Sometimes tampers with the security settings for the Internet Zone
Opens large pop-up advertisements when directed to do so by its controlling servers.
Sends URLs visited and terms entered into forms to its controlling servers.
If e-mail addresses are configured in Outlook or Outlook Express it will send them to be sold for junk e-mail.


That's just plain nasty.

[oNyx]

>I'm playing a demo version of the game. A game that you have to pay for isn't free.

If you play the demo you don't have to pay for it. Demo versions are still playable games, which are free. Duh. Oh and most demos offer way more than those freeware games.

>I am not playing the full version of the game. I have to pay for that.

And your point is? It's try before you buy. You get 1h to several days of fun for free and if you want more you can buy the full version.

>Why should you get to play someones games that they put a lot of time and
>effort into for free?

Bla bla... it's a fair deal. You (the developer) get a nice possibility for promoting the fullversion whereas the user get some entertainment in return. That's the whole idea. Fair n square. Never heared of it huh?

[ragtag]

To quote Monty Python... :)

H: We use only the finest, juicy chunks of fresh Cornish ram's bladder, emptied, steamed, flavored with sesame seeds, whipped into a fondue, and garnished with lark's vomit.

I: Lark's vomit?!

H: Correct.

I: It doesn't say anything here about lark's vomit!!

H: Ah, it does, at the bottom of the label, after monosodium glutamate!

I: I hardly think that's good enough! I think it would be more appropriate if the box bore a big red label, "WARNING: LARK'S VOMIT!"

H: Our sales would plummit!

[luggage]

Also, If shareware were to be killed by adware, who cares? Instead of selling your games, you'd bundle them with eZula or WhenU, and give them away for free. You'd make more than you ever would with shareware, and people would get top-quality games for free. All the evil adware companies would go out of business because no one would use them, and people would learn to start reading license agreements.

Rubbish, so I make a game that takes a year or so, don't charge and bundle it with WhenU. Someone else makes a game, doesn't charge and bundles that with WhenU. Who gets the money? There'd be just more and more versions of adware and spyware and the entire industry would crash (as well as just about every machine). Good thinking!

And people don't trust developers anymore? Almost everything on download.com that isn't for sale is bundled with adware, yet download.com is still one of the most popular sites on the net (And people there seem to HATE shareware. They had an old poll asking how long trial limitations should be, and most said "More than 60 days.")

It's not surprising when asked how long trial limitations should be that most would say "More than 60 days". It would save them buying it. You may as well ask them "would you like good games for free?" And you class that as 'HATE' - quite strong words there.

As for download.com it's getting littered with maps and addons for games more than original games. One machine can only have so much spyware\adware and what happens when a users machines slows down to a crawl because of all the software you advocate having put on it? They'll take it somewhere to get fixed, get charged a nice sum of money and then the user suddenly doesn't like downloading software in fear it'll cost them again.

[cliffski]

I am utterly astounded that anyone on here sticks up for adware. If I install a game from someone and its bundled with some adware, then not only do I uninstall the game immediately (and the adware) I make a mental note never to even consider buying a game from that same developer. Anyone who thinks bundling adware with their game is a good long term business model is just plain ill-informed, and they are certainly not people I would want to do business with.
When will people learn that annoying your customers is not the way to retain them. Nobody reads the licence agreements, because they are too long and full of legal bullshit nobody understands.
My games don't even HAVE a licence agreements, because I don't want to insult my customers by making them read/accept that kind of crap.
me and my customers have a deal. I make great games, they try them for free, if they like them, they buy them. Its that simple, and that way everyone is happy. I see no room for adware in my business. ;)

[Greg Squire]

Adware, Spyware and even the appearance of spyware in your games will tarnish your reputation for a very long time. My advice is DON'T DO IT! Don't sell out your good name for a little extra cash. It isn't worth it.

Even the appearance of spyware can be bad. There is increased awareness of what spyware is today, and many people use personal firewalls that alert them when applications are wanting to access the internet (such as ZoneAlarm). So, any time your game or application "phones home", you better be sure that the user knows it's okay. Some examples of times that a user might expect a game to access the net are: During an in-game purchase, during a multiplayer game session, and during a software update check (if your game or app is that sophisticated).

Even if the information you are gathering is not "personally identifiable", it will still be viewed by many as spyware. Look what happened to WildTangent's reputation. Their web driver collects some stats on the machine (mostly video card info), and then sends it to WildTangent. Their privacy policy here (http://www.wildtangent.com/default.asp?pageID=privacy_webdriver) states that this info is used so that they can update the web driver to support the largest amount of hardware out there. (Conspiracy theorists might think otherwise, but I'm willing to accept that that is the case). So even though they info wasn't "personally identifiable", I think they went about it in the wrong way. There was no option to "opt-out", and they didn't make it real obvious that this was what they were going to be doing. A lot the bad press and misconceptions could have been avoided if they had a simple question in the install like, "would you like to send system config data to WildTangent for the purpose of bettering our WebDriver?"

[indiemaker]

They had a link in their Installation that basically says there will be Adware junk installed. I don't like it, and I cancelled the installation.

I'm amazed how fast they have grown. They have like 9 games on there now.

Are those games they developed or 3rd party?

[Coyote]

My machine was once crippled by adware. The crappy code replaced a segment of TCP/IP code so that it couldn't be removed, and when the buggy code broke down, all my TCP-IP based communication died. UDP still worked - which was the reason I knew I hadn't just lost all internet communication.

Any program that is not part of the core O.S. that tries to obscure itself or the fact that is running or makes itself difficult to install, and runs even after the core program that it piggy-backed its installation onto has exited (or worse, been uninstalled) is cybernetic thievery, stealing system resources like CPU cycles and bandwidth against the user's knowledge or informed permission.

Anything that would not be installed if it didn't hide its existance by burying itself in the depths of a EULA is IMO Malware, unethical and only given a veneer of questionable legality by clinging to a loophole.

Now, this is something totally different from (for example) in-game advertising. I completely support that. But once you shut down the game, the advertising goes away.

I also agree completely that adware / spyware could be the death of shareware. Think of it... television (broadcast, at least) has been a dominant entertainment medium for decades now - completely supported by advertising. But if the technology existed and was used when TV was introduced that would blare commercials throughout the house at all times of the day or night even when the TV was shut off, unplugged, and even thrown into the garbage, how many homes would have a television today?

[anothersomething]

Maybe people missed the fact that I said WhenU was actually USEFUL and that I leave it installed ON PURPOSE even though I could EASILY go to the control panel and REMOVE it. It HAS NOT messed up my computer at all, and HAS NOT slowed it down either.

Anyone who thinks bundling adware with their game is a good long term business model is just plain ill-informed, and they are certainly not people I would want to do business with.

Plain ill-informed eh? I wonder why eZula, WhenU, and others are doing so well and why people install there apps on purpose. According to WhenU's website, they have a 3-20% CTR on the advertisements they show. Anything doing that well can't completely suck.


SOME ADWARE IS BAD, AND SOME WILL MESS UP YOUR COMPUTER. But not all.

Also, I repeat that adware is NOT spyware.

Any adware that is hard to remove, or any developers that sneak it on to your PC are evil. But if they have a 20 line TOS, and they state that this download includes adware, they haven't done anything wrong.

[indiemaker]

Maybe people missed the fact that I said WhenU was actually USEFUL and that I leave it installed ON PURPOSE even though I could EASILY go to the control panel and REMOVE it. It HAS NOT messed up my computer at all, and HAS NOT slowed it down either.



Plain ill-informed eh? I wonder why eZula, WhenU, and others are doing so well and why people install there apps on purpose. According to WhenU's website, they have a 3-20% CTR on the advertisements they show. Anything doing that well can't completely suck.


SOME ADWARE IS BAD, AND SOME WILL MESS UP YOUR COMPUTER. But not all.

Also, I repeat that adware is NOT spyware.

Any adware that is hard to remove, or any developers that sneak it on to your PC are evil. But if they have a 20 line TOS, and they state that this download includes adware, they haven't done anything wrong.



All ADWARE is bad. They have no business being in a game in the first place. It gives shareware and downlaodable software a bad name, and harmful to our industry. These developers who put Adware are not thinking of the long term reprecussions, only thinking of short term gain.

[anothersomething]

No, SOME ADWARE HAS GIVEN IT A BAD NAME. NOT ALL OF IT.

edit: And many developers think about long term stuff, and overall, they think they will gain for it. As I said, WhenU SAVES PEOPLE MONEY AND TIME. Anything that figures out what you are buying and then shows you competing products instantly, as well as their prices, is EXTREMELY USEFUL in my opinion.

[cliffski]

you have made your point. it seems nobody else here agrees with you (along with 99% of the web) so lets leave it at that shall we?

[robleong]

Perhaps I should put a notice on my website that "downloads on this website do not contain adware, spyware, etc." - might now be worthwhile doing.

[anothersomething]

you have made your point. it seems nobody else here agrees with you (along with 99% of the web) so lets leave it at that shall we?

...and no one else here has said HOW ALL adware is bad.

[cliffski]

*sigh*
it annoys people. We don't want ads with everything we install. You might enjoy adverts plageuing every second of your life. the rest of us don't. You are obviously obsessed with adware. fine. Go become a millionaire using adware and spam emails. None of the rest of us want to discuss it any more, we all agree. adware sucks. As potential customers we don't have to justify why we hate adware, we just do. ever heard the phrase "the customer is always right?" or dont you care what they think?

[Andy]

...and no one else here has said HOW ALL adware is bad.

:confused:

Dan. Please... Time to close this. No?

[cliffski]

*LOOK COOl V*iagR_A get it NOW No Prescript3ion N33D^ded


point made?

[Bluecat]

...and no one else here has said HOW ALL adware is bad.
Ok, I'll bite. ALL adware is bad.

[Greg Squire]

No offense, but I’ve never understood the mentality of people who love ads and deliberately seek them out. (Maybe they are “marketing wannabes” or something) Obviously these people exist, as there are many people who watch and buy stuff from infomercials, QVC, and the Home Shopping Network. (Side Note: Some people have gotten so caught up in “impulse buying” that it has destroyed their credit, their lives and they ended up in therapy.)

Personally I can’t stand most ads, so that’s why use pop-up blockers and watch pre-recorded TV (Dish PVR, kind of like TIVO) so I can “zap” those commercials. To each their own I guess.

[indiemaker]

No offense, but I’ve never understood the mentality of people who love ads and deliberately seek them out. (Maybe they are “marketing wannabes” or something) Obviously these people exist, as there are many people who watch and buy stuff from infomercials, QVC, and the Home Shopping Network. (Side Note: Some people have gotten so caught up in “impulse buying” that it has destroyed their credit, their lives and they ended up in therapy.)

Personally I can’t stand most ads, so that’s why use pop-up blockers and watch pre-recorded TV (Dish PVR, kind of like TIVO) so I can “zap” those commercials. To each their own I guess.


Not to belabor this for too long but Adware is far more pernicious than simple TV commercials for the main reason being that your privacy and control over your computer is being compromised in a serious way. I don't mind TV commercials since sometimes, they do provide information that I want such as a movie or such. But Adwares are in another category altogether.

[Greg Squire]

Not to belabor this for too long but Adware is far more pernicious than simple TV commercials for the main reason being that your privacy and control over your computer is being compromised in a serious way. I don't mind TV commercials since sometimes, they do provide information that I want such as a movie or such. But Adwares are in another category altogether.

Totally agreed. Luckily TV and radio ads haven't started popping out of my toaster yet. :D

[Greg Squire]

Perhaps I should put a notice on my website that "downloads on this website do not contain adware, spyware, etc." - might now be worthwhile doing.

It's probably a good idea for all us to have a Privacy Policy Page on our websites.

[Hamumu]

http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/whenu-spam/

I would tend to agree that adware isn't the problem. I used to use Go!Zilla, which was entirely ad-supported. The problem is deception and false advertising. I KNEW Go!Zilla was going to phone home and track ads, and that was the price I paid for it being otherwise free. They were very upfront. What appears to be happening on Sunnygames is utterly deceptive and reprehensible.

Of course, I say "adware isn't the problem" with the understanding that the adware business is utterly disgusting and completely filled with predatory business practices like the link above indicates. So I guess I'm more saying that IN THEORY it's not the problem - you can do a completely ad-supported product and be upfront about it and non-evil... in theory.

[BantamCityGames]

I agree with Andy, 86 this thread.

[Cartman]

I was just thinking the same thing. It's the same as saying, "We do not sell your email addresses." Some people may appreciate you putting that in big bold letters on the front of your web page.

[anothersomething]

No one here apparently has any experience with adware, yet they all say it is bad. I would think successful indies should be a bit more open minded. Someone download one of the games from www.free-windows-games.com. (I don't run it.) Check out the installer: A full page is dedicated to the fact that it comes with WhenU. And look at the quality of some of the games on that site. Ore No Ryomi 2 is extremely addicting, so is Jumper. Squarez is a very nice and challenging puzzle game.

Are you telling me that this is scummy and evil? And that he is sneaking it onto your PC? And it is bad? I think you guys just want something for nothing, which isn't exactly fair.

[anothersomething]

http://www.benedelman.org/spyware/whenu-spam/

I would tend to agree that adware isn't the problem. I used to use Go!Zilla, which was entirely ad-supported. The problem is deception and false advertising. I KNEW Go!Zilla was going to phone home and track ads, and that was the price I paid for it being otherwise free. They were very upfront. What appears to be happening on Sunnygames is utterly deceptive and reprehensible.

Of course, I say "adware isn't the problem" with the understanding that the adware business is utterly disgusting and completely filled with predatory business practices like the link above indicates. So I guess I'm more saying that IN THEORY it's not the problem - you can do a completely ad-supported product and be upfront about it and non-evil... in theory.

Yes, and it happens a lot. There are SOME assholes who have ruined it for everyone. There are many honest unscummy people who bundle adware with their games and are completely honest about it.

edit: Regarding the search engine spam, yes that is a bit scummy. But look at some of these overly optimized indie sites. I believe Retro64 gives free-games-net.com free hosting in exchange for the featured games on that site. What is with the text "from the <a ...>computer games</a> at retro64"? Shouldn't it be "from the the computer games at <a ...>retro64</a>"? Nothing wrong with SEO in my opinion, but just pointing it out. Also, the title of retro64 is "Free Computer Game Downloads". It doesn't even include the name of the site in the title. Still, I think it's great that retro64 has a top 10 ranking for popular keywords like "computer games".

[luggage]

No one here apparently has any experience with adware, yet they all say it is bad. I would think successful indies should be a bit more open minded. Someone download one of the games from www.free-windows-games.com. (I don't run it.) Check out the installer: A full page is dedicated to the fact that it comes with WhenU. And look at the quality of some of the games on that site. Ore No Ryomi 2 is extremely addicting, so is Jumper. Squarez is a very nice and challenging puzzle game.

Are you telling me that this is scummy and evil? And that he is sneaking it onto your PC? And it is bad? I think you guys just want something for nothing, which isn't exactly fair.

No. The thing is we ALL have experience with Adware and none of use like it.

those games might be really good but that has nothing to do with it containing adware.

Customers don't like it. End Of.

[anothersomething]

No. The thing is we ALL have experience with Adware and none of use like it.

those games might be really good but that has nothing to do with it containing adware.

Customers don't like it. End Of.

Customers don't like paying for games either.

[Dan MacDonald]

I think everyone's had a chance to state their positions. I'm convinced part of the reason these forums are successful is because we dont have Adds all over the place. Sure Retro64 and Twilight Games have their links in the footer of the page (I be 90% of you haven't even noticed), but other then that the setup, matinence, bandwidth and other overhead of these forums is all absorbed by the Admins of this forum. According to anothersomething we have everyright to put up adds and make some money from our efforts.

I personally think putting adds on this forum would be wrong and ruin it. I feel exactly the same way about any game that installs addware on my machine regardless of if they inform me about it or not.