Game Tunnel redesign complete...I hope...

[cyrus_zuo]

Baring any major bugs that are found the Game Tunnel redesign (known as gt3) has been completed.

I checked in other browsers and it definately looks best in IE, but is passible in Netscape & FireFox, terrible in Opera, but I'm not going to fix that.

The piece that I think will cause the most stir is the top sales section at the bottom center of the main page. It is obviously not industry wide since well there is no-way to gather that inforamtion. Instead it is based soley off of affiliate sales through GT (those games that don't have any type of affiliate program would therefore be exculded).

The forums will be officially launched with a game giveaway using some of last years GOTY winners as the titles to be randomly given away to registered members of the forum.

So there you have it. On we go :)

[Andy]

Good transition from independent games news site down to the site selling affiliated Reflexive Arcade games. :D

Game titles in the both lists on the main page - it would be better to make them as links to game info - peoples would like to check more specifically what are the bestsellers and best downloaders.

[Scorpio]

The site update looks great, congrats!

I did notice that you have "Feeding Frenzy" as "By: Big Fish" but it should be "By: Sprout Games".

Also, if you'd like to use a copy of Puzzle Express as another game give-away freebie, send me a PM.

-Scorpio

[Dan MacDonald]

Generally very nice, In the main content panel I would loose the small "Game Tunnel" at the top and the first horizontal rule image, they push the main content of the site down too far and dont really add much use for the reader. That's one of the first places that people look when they visit the page.. better to have content there then fluff :)


Just as a note to readers here, it's sort of hidden but...

The top selling games are...

*Based solely on information collected through Game Tunnel's affiliate partners. Top Selling games is based on sales this year. Top Downloaded games are based on downloads in the last month.

;)

[Chris Evans]

You also have Mutant Storm listed as made by Reflexive in your top ten list.

Overall, I like it. Top ten lists are always fun to see. However on your download page it would be nice to see some non Reflexive games. :) I have to kind of agree with Andy, it almost seems you've turned the site into one big affiliate site for Reflexive.

I understand you have to pay bills, but I just want to see GameTunnel remain a Indie news/review site and not become another run of the mill affiliate download site.

Again though, nice redesign!

[Jack Norton]

I agree about seeing other games. Also because other developer can affiliate their games as well, like I did with UBM :)

So the moral is: put UBM in the frontpage now! :D

[Andy]

Seriously,

I was talking to Russel long a year ago - "we are ordering the advertising at your site mostly to support you". And probably we could consider together with another developers how we can help on current stage.
But right now the site isn't looking like it can deliver the objective information after all this affiliation.

Look Russel - this is obvious - you give some specific downloads to your visitors and later mesure the best ones between them. And it would be OK and correct till/if you not position your site as Independent Gaming News site. We can't change or require anything. But you should agree that this step dramatically changes the status of your site.

Please accept this as my two cents and attempt to help.
Thanks for reading,

[Sean Doherty]

I am kind of wondering if it even maters any more. Have a look at this url:

http://www.msngamecenter.com/category.htm?code=1002

Looks like Microsoft is getting into the independent market?

[cyrus_zuo]

-> Thanks for the Mutant Storm and Feeding Frenzy catches, I fixed those...I think...
-> On the 'Game Tunnel' at the top, that is actually something that is built in from phpNuke...I agree it is VERY annoying. I'll start searching and see where in the code it is. Probably have that fixed late today or Monday.

->On the downloads:
Interesting I honestly didn't figure the downloads piece would make any difference the sales piece yah...but the downloads?

Last November I ran into a problem with the downloads section I had and it needed to be recoded. I didn't have the time to deal with it at the time as I was working on the GOTY awards at that time. It was about the same time Reflexive launched a customized page that could be used in an iframe. I figured it would be a good stop-gap until I had time to fix my downloads section.

So we hit January and I took a look at redoing the downloads. Thinking about it the biggest pains I had were
1) It takes a ton of work to stay on top of the downloads, it would have to be automated with PAD to be at all considerable, but even at that I didn't have the know-how to do it. Broken links as sites changed and approving downloads after checking them took a fair amount of time.

2) I made $0 off of my downloads, but in the 2 months I'd been running my stop gap I'd brought in a fair amount of income to the site. (right now my affiliate program with reflexive accounts for about 25% of the income on the site (other affiliate programs account for about 35% all together, 25% is paid advertising, 15% is paid reviews) Overall I checked today and I'm in at about $0.40/hour this year for my work on the site. If I had spent the time working at McDonalds I would have had enough to buy a car new car...)

3) Not a single soul said a word to me about the switch to the reflexive downloads...that has continued up until today?

Considering the above I determined:
1) It would be a lot of work to change to a different download section
2) It would cost me a lot of potential revenue to chagne to a different download set-up
3) No one cared that I had changed to my current download set-up with Reflexive.

So back in January I decided not to worry about it and moved on...
So fast forward 9 months later...and um...interesting response...

You get about the same top ten that I have on the front page by clicking on my "Downloads" link on the left of every page on the site. Basically I made it a click easier to help with revenue obviously, $.40/hour doesn't keep things going forever (though it is a great improvement over going in the hole last year)

Anyway, with that in perspective I'm happy to discuss it, but it has to be from that perspective. With that in mind fire away...how can things be made better without cutting my pay down to $.30/hour? Why did no-one care for the last 11 months about this?

[Anthony Flack]

Weeelll... up until now, wasn't it the case that it was a list of the most highly recommended games in that place? Which seems far more appropriate for a review site.

But leaving that aside - what about those links to larger screenshots in the monthly round-up, eh? And also, are the monthly roundups archived and indexed? I couldn't find that anywhere, but it would seem like madness to chuck them out at the end of the month, so surely...

[cyrus_zuo]

Most highly recommended on the front page makes sense to me. Could definately make that switch when I have a minute (probably on Monday). Wouldn't change the download section though...

The Monthly Round-Ups are available through the editorial section. Click on articles on the left and then on the monthly round-up category. I'll get you better thumbnails for the September one ;).

[Andy]

The whole your first page at your site states that all good games are at Reflixive Arcade only - after redesign. That guys made and got pretty good games. But you got no any alternative now. It would be good media catalogue to their arcade. Of course with some outside news - but look - that's very common way to mix news to highlight what ever you need - amount of guys are using the same.

Russel. I got a problem. I see your position as very honest - you want money. You are not ready to spend your time to support independent news media any more. And personally I got no any idea what to propose to you in change here.

Perhaps let things go like they do - there are no any free press in the world - so we just know specifically from whom depend your media. :D

Good luck anyway!

[Jack Norton]

I made $0 off of my downloads, but in the 2 months I'd been running my stop gap I'd brought in a fair amount of income to the site.
Hmm... well you sold 1 ubm sometime ago, if I remember well, and with only 290 downloads... ;)
I'm not saying that you should replace completely your Reflexive games, but also give other dev games more exposure, of course in exchange of affiliation link.
If you say "I'll put only games if you give me affiliate link" I wouldn't mind at all, I understand if you need money (everyone does) and I'm willing to give all my games to you as affiliate and I suspect that lot of other devs would.
This seems a fair deal to me.

[Gmicek]

1: That Microsoft site is another download portal. I don't see reviews on there. I don't see news. I don't see any editorial voice whatsoever. What I do see is the same shit* found on every other download portal.

*I do not mean 'shit' in referring to the quality of the titles, but rather the range of titles, I.E., these games are available on a zillion other websites.

2: Russell, the reason no one mentioned it was because either A: no one noticed, or B: it did not seem significant because it was hidden away on the website to a certain degree.

3: Other websites do what Game Tunnel is doing by going through Reflexive. JustAdventure+, a well respected adventure game site, has an online store that up until recently was a carbon copy of the one at GT. Now they've switched over to Oberon Media like the MS one.

4: It seems perfectly reasonable to be alarmed at the generous amount of real estate is devoted to what is essentially a sales section. It does not seem reasonable, however, to call Russell to task for trying to make some money on what is essentially a bottomless time pit that is always in need of attention.

5: Guess what, it's not 1999 anymore, it's actually difficult for websites to make money without whoring themselves out just a little. At DIY we've made enough money to pay our hosting fees for the next two years, and I'm confident GT has made more than we have, but that still doesn't mean it's a significant amount of money.

6: Andy, your comment that Russell is "...not ready to spend <his> time to support independent news media any more." is shameful. Most everyone here toils for hours on end every day on indie projects, and yet most all of them have some real hope of making a decent amount of money. The gaming news sites do not create new products and sell them. When Russell is writing entries for the end of the month article he is not able to think "man, if I do this right I'll make some money!" because he won't. Posting poorly written or deceptive press releases, reviews, or news stories about games most people could care less about isn't a great way to make money in case you haven't noticed.

It is admirable that you supported GT by giving up some cash for advertising, just as it is for anyone who has advertised or donated money to GT (or DIY for that matter, eternally grateful, you guys know who you are). But that was how long ago? What else have you done to support it? I don't notice a link to them on your website anywhere. I don't know about Russell, but if every developer I ever mentioned at DIY linked back to us we'd be doing alright.

7: Anyone that wants to criticize GT (or DIY if you get around to it) for their money making plans should really try to see where those involved with the site are coming from. Russell has a family and can not be expected to utilize valuable resources (time and money) on a website that offers little chance of return if he doesn't do something proactive and imaginative to make money. I don't have the same personal responsibilities that Russell does but I do know that I put as much into DIY as I can. There's a reason why I've been living on Top Ramen for months and working countless hours of overtime at my day job. And let me tell you, it sure as hell isn't for my health. Obviously if there's a conflict of interest then please, by all means, get upset (how do the Reflexive arcade games rate at GT? is there a disproportionately high number of good reviews for them?)

8: We all need to support eachother. Whether that's by giving honest reviews and coverage of your games, or by giving a little love (monetary, or just links) to the indie news sites. Neither Russell or I are perfect at covering every aspect of the indie games scene, and quite frequently things go unintentionally un-mentioned or ignored. So continue to send your news stories and review requests, but try not to take it personally if nothing becomes of it, just keep bugging us :) On the flip side, I'm not sure how often it's happened to Russell, but I know I have more than half of my emails to developers and, especially, the indie publishers ignored. This includes review, interview, article, and news item requests.

Ok, i'm starting to ramble. Is the new GT design perfect? Hell no (using Opera over here, hello! hehe), but it's damn good, especially when compared to the first version.

[Chris Evans]

I don't know about Russell, but if every developer I ever mentioned at DIY linked back to us we'd be doing alright.

I did my part. I put up your guy's link as soon as I launched my site several months ago - http://www.outsidetheboxsoftware.com/links.html :) I agree, it would be good if more developers linked back to you guys.

Anyway, the reason I noticed it now is basically what Greg said. The sales area of the front page now takes up a large portion of the real estate.

The banner Ads never bothered me much because 1) You need to make some money. 2) The banner Ads seemed to be distributed evenly and were basically open to anyone who paid for the Ad or for a full review.

However, with your download sections it seems to be exclusive to Reflexive affiliate games. It's not really fair to other developers who are not affiliated with Reflexive. The top ten list is being presented as informative content or a resource that represents the Indie community when it's actually purely a sales piece that's only open to a small subset.

To be honest, I'd prefer you guys make a "Game Store" section instead. Set it up like a mini-store and put all your affiliate stuff in there, so you don't mix it with your editorial content. Check out http://www.insidemacgames.com Their front page has a few banners and there's even a side-bar about upcoming releases to their store, yet the front page still contains tons of editorial content, so you don't feel overwhelmed by the sales areas.

Right now at GameTunnel, I'd say the editorial content on the front page makes up less than 1/3 - 1/4 of the page. Banner Ads and Google Ads surround surround the entire page and the download sections take up a good portion of the center page. The tiny news section is just squished in the middle. If you did what Anthony said by making the Top Downloads, "Recommended" downloads by the GT staff then that would help expand the editorial content on the front page a bit

Though personally, I just don't think there's enough text given to the news and reviews on the front page. Again, it's just my personal opinion and I'm sure most people prefer the compact look. But I still would like the editorial voice to be louder on the front page.

But I think you should seriously consider having a mini-store. It's better to have a store where people know you're trying to sell stuff to them rather than an affiliate download page, which is being passed off as editorial or informative content. Again, take a look at Inside Mac Games to see how it's done nicely. It's something to consider whenever you do your next redesign. :)

[Andy]

Andy... What else have you done to support it? I don't notice a link to them on your website anywhere. I don't know about Russell, but if every developer I ever mentioned at DIY linked back to us we'd be doing alright.


Greg, I suppose you can understand that I just have to answer. ;)
I can't give link backs to sites publishing "absolutely incorrect, unprofessional and subjective review" on our game. :D

I'm really kidding on current stage. But you should agree: this is not a game for us. We are trying to feed our families from the money we get from this business. That's why I don't see any reason to show our customers that (stupid, f***ed) incorrect review.

------- I have to divide the message on two parts / system doesn't let to send it all together -----

[Andy]

Again, just forget my explonation above - that have no any connection to the fact that I do (we do) respect Russel and your efforts. Even if I dissapointed by some mistakes that cann't change the fact you spend amount of your time on that.

And again (one more time ;) ) - I can agree that amount of affiliated developers who get good reviews from Russel's guys should give (and probably do so) links back to him. Now, I'm pretty not sure if they'll agree to do so - what for? to help selling Reflexive titles? I said you Russel stepped into another business. This is not bad, this is not good (for us) - this is just how the things are going with him.

PS Greg - did you noticed how many links back we have on site? And you should know for sure how many requests we get per the week. So, this is obviously not against Russel specifically :D

PSS "We all need to support eachother." I want to support you and Russel!!!

PSSS Where are our review on INVASION WAVES at DIY btw ;) I know for sure that I was asking and expecting your (personal!) detailed review (opinion really!!! with advices and suggestions...) on the game in last two months (check PMs, check email, check request at your site!) :D

I'm really sorry for such a long answer - I was trying to explain the things as specific as possible to not offend anybody by somewhat.
With respect to your efforst,

[Sean Doherty]

It would seem that this is a very explosive topic and people, for the most part, are on one side or the other. I will say that it does take a long time to maintain and grow a site. As such, it would be nice if people could:

- link back to Game Tunnel, DIY, Freelance Games, Byten (if you can);
- provide custom affiliate builds;
- keep your download links static for the latest version.

I suspect that everyone understand how much work it is it to maintain a site that generates so little revenue. Speaking only for Freelance Games, there are a lot of features that I would like to implement; but it is difficult to find the time given the de-motivation of revenue. It would be very helpful if people link back and provide custom affiliate builds.

Lastly, I do appreciate the unsolicited emails of support and press released that the site receives.

Thanks to those people

[JoeMaru]

I actually don't understand the argument. It all depends on the Goal of GameTunnell. Does one want to be seen as a fair and respected site for high quality journalism or does one want to make money doing it?

If one wants to be seen as a journalist, then taking heed of the comments posted here would be wise. If one just wants to have fun and make it worth their while to continue doing so, then just about everything is in play as a means to that end.

As far as GameTunnell is concerned, myself (and other business associates) consider Game Tunnell to be a place where the reviews are especially subjective. I never saw the site as an objective outlet for information, so I really don't see any conflict here.

Now, as Game Tunnell moves from a review site to a 'business' site.. the comments posted here should be taken in context of 'business'. We are in the business of making games. To a non dev, having affiliate games being on the 'top ten' everywhere affects our business as it gives potential game purchasers a slanted perception of the state of indie games, and it has the potential to hurt our businesses.

Like it or not, the indie games business is becoming like the 'big' games business where subversive 'pay to play' marketing tactics are taking over and those that win the game of getting people to see their games depends on how much $$$ has changed hands.

I think many here or responding to this development because it comes across as hypocrisy. Reading your editorials, one would get the impression that you are promoting experiementation and innovation.. but by becoming an affiliate, you are becoming a cog in a marketing machine.

I personally don't mind it, as I respect the fact that people need to do what they need to do to stay around. I just find the whole thing kind of ironic.

[cyrus_zuo]

I just find the whole thing kind of ironic.

Well spoken point (I can at least see the reasoning for that little bit of it, there was plenty of resentment in their from I think that discussion long ago on Dexterity where you felt I was clueless and only you understood what was going on, I sense a good bit of that attitude here, but there are some good points regardless), and I did begin my part of this 'discussion' by stating I would be willing to change things...it just couldn't impact me financially...why?

If I decreased the income from the site I'd stop today. In fact without increasing the income on the site long term Game Tunnel will cease to exist.

I have to date reviewed two reflexive games, so Andy not sure where your point is there other than the fact that you are still upset that the review of your game on GT wasn't higher. I suppose I could change that though?


So it seems that the suggestion is that I change the download section into a section that allows developers to submit games and requires an affiliate link. I think that is a great idea, here are my concerns:
1) Who will program that section? It sounds like a custom coding, which costs money, so that is a concern.
2) How much time will it take for me to keep it up to date? With the system for downloads that I used from Jan-Nov of last year I ended up having to enter many of the games myself. There was also a thread on Dexterity with people complaining that they shouldn't have to enter in the information themselves and instead they should only have to give a PAD file. I think a modified PAD/manual system to get all the info would be good, but it goes back to getting the games, making sure things are correct, checking the links, updating links when they go out of date, etc. So the time it will take is also a concern.

Thoughts on how to overcome some of those? Do we think that it will create more revenue in the long run? (I think that may be possible but don't have any kind of business model to build that on) It will take more time for sure. What I have right now takes no time and creates 1/4 of the revenue on the website and allows me to sell some games, like Think Tanks, that I wouldn't be able to sell otherwise. I've mentioned that I thought changing the downloads piece on the front page is something reasonable, I think maybe something I'll do this week, though this thread is actually motivating me to just take the week and play with my kids.

Thanks for the thoughts all. I appreciate people writing even if they have taken liberty of forming opinions on me based on doing very little reading on the site. At least you are willing to share your contempt! That to me means we can probably still figure out how to get along with differing viewpoints. :)

[Gmicek]

Even if I dissapointed by some mistakes that cann't change the fact you spend amount of your time on that.

If there's factual errors in the review I'm sure Russell would change them. Early on I noticed a review on GT that has a factual error that really affected the score. I emailed Russell and it was fixed, and the score was adjusted appropriately.


Now, I'm pretty not sure if they'll agree to do so - what for? to help selling Reflexive titles? I said you Russel stepped into another business. This is not bad, this is not good (for us) - this is just how the things are going with him.

No, to help promote the larger scene. If all your interested in is promoting your own game then you're going to be very lonely. Most developers see the wisdom is supporting gaming news sites/publications because generally speaking it helps everyone, even if it's in an indirect way.


PSSS Where are our review on INVASION WAVES at DIY btw ;) I know for sure that I was asking and expecting your (personal!) detailed review (opinion really!!! with advices and suggestions...) on the game in last two months (check PMs, check email, check request at your site!) :D

I got a PM from you saying to check it out, you said in it you didn't care whether I reviewed it or not, just wanted me to check it out. I won't even comment on your developer interest note because it's just too funny. With any luck you don't use the same wording with other review sites.

[tentons]

Well, you've got to make money to survive. And how many print magazines do you read that don't contain ads every 1-3 pages? How is that different from a web site that also has to survive?

It seems that some developers here creating games to make money don't seem to want to acknowledge that necessity in others. :rolleyes:

[Mark Sheeky]

For the record, Bytten has not made any money at all in 18 months. Andrew and I never intended Bytten to be commercial, I want to illustrate it is possible to run a website without making money from it! The subsidiary benefits of new friends and contacts, staying in touch (by force of deadline) with the indie game world and the occasional review copy of software can equal the sometimes large workload of running a website.

Mark
Bytten Independent Games Magazine
http://www.bytten.com

[Sean Doherty]

I want to illustrate it is possible to run a website without making money from it!

Hey Mark,

I know I am taking your quote out of context, but I am pretty sure this was proven by quite a few companies in the year 2000. :D

All kidding aside, the important thing to remember here is the term "free press" does not mean you work for free. It means you are free to report on anything (well it used to). Mark is in a unique situation because he has a coulple of quality shareware titles to sell.

I would be interested in hearing people sugestions on business models for sites such as Game Tunnel. I am pretty sure charging the end user is not workable?

[Gmicek]

For the record, Bytten has not made any money at all in 18 months. Andrew and I never intended Bytten to be commercial, I want to illustrate it is possible to run a website without making money from it!

You also develop, and sell, your own games. At least one of which is advertised on Bytten. Think of it like this. If the staff of PC Gamer released their magazine without advertisements every month, but also created their own commercial games, how do you think people would react?

Illustrating that you can run a website without making money from it doesn't accomplish anything, because millions of people do it every day. Having GT and DIY generate income is a good thing in my opinion, not just for Russell and I. I know that at DIY we've managed to pay for our next two years of hosting. Next we'll spend our money on advertising and helping to pay for IGC and GDC. That income is helpful for everyone involved with DIY (whether it's the staff, or the people who have their products featured there) because it means more traffic for DIY, more exposure for indies in general, and (hopefully) more exposure for individual games and developers.

[fusionlab]

If the staff of PC Gamer released their magazine without advertisements every month, but also created their own commercial games, how do you think people would react?


Er, you probably didn't pick the best example - in the UK at least, PC Gamer has its own budget label of PC games (in conjunction with a company called Mastertronic). They even have the cheek to review their own games!

I agree with you Gmicek that there's nothing wrong with mixing editorial with self-serving advertisements. I used to publish video game magazines which were crammed with adverts for our own gaming products (and the odd feature too!). Neither game publishers nor readers seemed to mind - I think I only ever received one letter from a reader complaining about the ads.

At the end of the day no one is forcing you to have your games featured on any of these sites. If you don't like the way they act then, with all due respect, their are other gaming sites out there which have much larger readerships so perhaps you should be focusing on them.

[Gmicek]

At the end of the day no one is forcing you to have your games featured on any of these sites. If you don't like the way they act then, with all due respect, their are other gaming sites out there which have much larger readerships so perhaps you should be focusing on them.

You actually lost me about halfway through your post. I know the first two paragraphs were directed at myself, but I'm not sure about the third, hehe. Anyway, I think the point of the whole conversation is that if someone doesn't like the way things are being done they should possibly make constructive suggestions, or spend 30 seconds to think about the situation. There most certainly are websites with much larger websites than us, but very few websites post about the latest puzzler, or side scrolling coin collection game being released, much less actually reviewing them.

[fusionlab]

I just re-read my post Gregory and you're right - the third paragraph wasn't directed at you. ;)

[cyrus_zuo]

Well here are my verdicts (for better or worse ;))

I'm leaving my downloads section as is.
No-one had any suggestions on how to make the changes that had been suggested, and I'm affraid that no work on my part to keep a download section that is continually updated and generates a large percentage of my site's revenue is a no brainer.

I will, however, be changing the front page so that the downloads listed there are 'recommended downloads' that will list whatever downloads I'm high on at the moment. The list will probably look something like:

Gates of Troy
Wik
Outpost Kaloki
Gish
Chromentum
Global Defense Network
Airstrike 2
Ricochet Lost Worlds
President Forever
Smugglers 3

Anyway, thanks for the input. I do want to just agree with what Greg has stated here thoughout. More indie exposure helps everyone, and GT and DIY do more and can do more with more income, its just natural. I'm pretty sure none of you started a 3rd game without any hope of making income on it. And there have been plenty of developers who have called it quits after not making enough off of their first couple of games even though they did it for 'enjoyment.' Same goes here, I do the site b/c I enjoy it, however there comes a point where if there isn't enough pay for the time, then it is time to move on to something else (which would only thrill my wife and family ;) ).

Thanks again for considering the sites as you consider how to plan your marketing strategy and for wanting them to be better, certainly if Greg and I had unlimited time and capital they would be giving Gamespot a run for its money. :D