car racing indie games - factors of success

[clilian]

Hi all,

Are you aware of :
- any indie game featuring car racing ?
- successful or not ?

And as we are in the game design thread, what kind of strategy would you choose for developing such a game ?
- top view 2D or full 3D ?
- mouse or keyboard ?
- fun or serious ?
- team management or pure arcade style ?
- physics engine or simplified movements ?
- simple gameplay / real simulation ?
- any other thoughts ?

It's not that I'm planning to create one myself (well, never say never...), but it's a game genre not often discussed in this board and I'm wondering why. Too much AAA competition ? Too much work ?

Lilian

[Miguel Tartaj]

- any indie game featuring car racing ?
- successful or not ?

We've done a few, all of them sold to retailers and with different levels of success. One of them was sold to Infogrames (Bettle Buggin/Bettle Crazy Cup)


And as we are in the game design thread, what kind of strategy would you choose for developing such a game ?
- top view 2D or full 3D ?
- mouse or keyboard ?
- fun or serious ?
- team management or pure arcade style ?
- physics engine or simplified movements ?
- simple gameplay / real simulation ?
- any other thoughts ?
Lilian

That depends on your perception and skills. My personal view (considering the amount of games out there and the standard quality):

3D, keyboard (and every possible devices supported), fun, some management but not intend to be fully realistic, physics engine, real simulation with simple gameplay, very original and distinctive somehow.


It's not that I'm planning to create one myself (well, never say never...), but it's a game genre not often discussed in this board and I'm wondering why. Too much AAA competition ? Too much work ?
Lilian

Too much competition, really big teams working on this genre and usually with big brands and marketing behind them. The users of this genre normally buy the games from stores so you have to be ready to compete with the big fishes if you really want to make money. It's possible thou, but get ready to work really hard and find something trully original.

[BarrySlisk]

"- top view 2D or full 3D"

Top view (but could be 3D). Making a "normal" race game to compete with AAA titles is near impossible I think. But I could see myself buy a GOOD and improved SuperCars clone.

"- mouse or keyboard ? "

Keyboard and perhaps Wheel.

"fun or serious"

Little of both.

"team management or pure arcade style"

Arcade, but that is just opinion. Don't know if there is a demand for mangement race games.


"physics engine or simplified movements"

Physics but does not have to be super realistic, but close. And when doing top down it should be simpler. Car does not HAVE to rotate upside down. But I want to be able to slide etc.

"simple gameplay / real simulation"

Didn't I just answer that?


PS! My opinion does not matter. I have not released a single game :)

[electronicStar]

I'm not sure about the competition. When I looked at the latest state of the retail/big players market I did see a lot of racing games , but all of them seemed to go the rout of ultra-"realism", big licenses and very few fun.
I prefer games like the ones released before the year 2000 (sorry I can't remember a particular name right now) with crazy graphics and fun, rather than a boring rally simulation with big name X or Y which seems to be all the retail market can propose us nowadays.
I think there's room for indie games if you can make a fun game and not a simulation and don't let the 3d get in the way.

[Sharpfish]

Re-Volt was a good fun 3D racer (radio controlled cars) and can still look good today with hi-res and all effects running at 300fps ;)

RC Racer is also cool but not as good as re-volt.

Top down racers are great, not sure there is a "massive" market for them at the moment but make what you like...

I used to love supercars on the Amiga (and Nitro wasn't bad either).

Overdrive was a solid late attempt by Team17 at a dying genre (at that time).

Mashed - this is a fairly modern game that was more about FUN than serious racing, quite addictive in multiplayer.

Personally, if I were doing a racing game now - I would go with 3D top down with MASSIVE fun factor, and/or a Mashed style full 3D game which is achievable by a dedicated indie dev. ;)

[ManuelFLara]

Although I like racing games a little, I'm a big fan of "not serious" racing games, particularly those featuring in Nintendo consoles: Super Mario Kart series, Diddy Kong Racing (N64), ¿Street Racing?, and all.

One game I also liked and played a lot, and that could be (today) made by an indie team is Re-Volt (http://pc.ign.com/articles/160/160647p1.html). Single player was good, but the multiplayer was really great. Even more over LAN, when you can hear all your enemies yelling at you when you hit them with a water baloon or a rocket.

Also, I think no gaming experience beats a 4 player mario kart multiplayer session. As far as I've read, Mario Kart DS's multiplayer is gonna be HUGE (8 players over LAN with just a cartridge? I'm all for it!)

[Sharpfish]

Although I like racing games a little, I'm a big fan of "not serious" racing games, particularly those featuring in Nintendo consoles: Super Mario Kart series, Diddy Kong Racing (N64), ¿Street Racing?, and all.

One game I also liked and played a lot, and that could be (today) made by an indie team is Re-Volt (http://pc.ign.com/articles/160/160647p1.html). Single player was good, but the multiplayer was really great. Even more over LAN, when you can hear all your enemies yelling at you when you hit them with a water baloon or a rocket.

Also, I think no gaming experience beats a 4 player mario kart multiplayer session. As far as I've read, Mario Kart DS's multiplayer is gonna be HUGE (8 players over LAN with just a cartridge? I'm all for it!)


Just mentioned Re-Volt above..

As for mario kart DS I agree it sounds great.. it is the main reason I am picking up a DS this xmas.. I watched a ninty vid on gamepspot about it the other day (30 minutes long) and some of the stuff in it makes me think it probably will be the greatest implementation of the game yet.. I have MKDD on the gamecube and it didn't feel as good as MKadvance on the gameboy - and neither felt as good as N64 or the "always favorite" Snes version.. but I'm getting a good feeling about the DS version. No more hangers on on the back of the karts slowing you down, choice of "real karts" (low slung with great cornering feel) or the more overblown character karts (I welcome both)...

.. some cool "gimmicks" too which should provide some fun... inflating the balloons in battle mode by blowing into the microphone?? oh yes ;)

[baegsi]

I always wanted to play a good 2D racing game. Something more realistic, even strategic. Maybe a Nascar 2D sim, with pit-stop strategy and so on. Never found it. I recently played Mad Cars, which is not realistic at all, but if would create a game that feels and plays like this one plus you make it more realistic and strategic, you have your first customer :)

Not sure about market potential though. But in my very biased view I'd go to a more hardcore / niche game anyway.

And for me, it definitely has to be 2D.

[gpetersz]

There is a racing game at: http://www.conitec.net/english/gstudio/index.htm

3D Game Studio is a 3D engine and a Game Authoring tool. It looks quite adequate. They refer to a racing game which is the best selling product
ever made with their engine (1.5 million units sold, shareware model).

So seemingly, I think it all depends on THE racing game you make. If it is good then it will sell.

[Anlino]

Slightly offtopic, but as far as i remeber, the game was not about racing, it was about learning to drive.

[soniCron]

Excellent 2D driving games:
Super Off Road for the SNES
Micro Machines for the NES

These two games are gold, and totally worth checking out!

[3dben]

Excellent 2D driving games:
Super Off Road for the SNES
Micro Machines for the NES

These two games are gold, and totally worth checking out!

And dont forget RC Pro Am 1 & 2. :)

-=ben

[Greg Squire]

Are you aware of :
- any indie game featuring car racing ?
- successful or not ?


There's dRacer (http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/17990/7612), but it's still under development. I like kart racers (Mario Kart style) better than standard racers personally. Anyone know of any Indie Mario Kart clones out there?

I imagine that developing a racer (of any type) would take quite a bit to do, as it's a very content heavy game, and most of that content is enviroment that just whizzes past you fairly quickly.

[HairyTroll]

And what about Lotus Turbo Challenge 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_(computer_games)) for the Amiga? I still fire that thing up.

Enter 'DEESIDE' as the password and have a blast.

[puggy]

rock and roll racer. old snes game, excellent game play, don't see anything simalar these days though :(

[Jim Buck]

Check out Rally Cross (http://www.gamespot.com/ps/driving/rallycross/index.html) and CART World Series (http://www.gamespot.com/ps/driving/cartworldseries/index.html) for the PlayStation 1.. be sure to check out the credits as well. ;)

[chanon]

Here's what I'd try to emulate if I were to do a racing game:

http://english.kbs.co.kr/life/trend/1349162_11857.html
http://www.broadbandinfo.com/got-high-speed/games-and-chat/kart-rider.html

Here's another great article about the game
http://www.businessweekasia.com/technology/content/jun2005/tc20050623_2687_tc024.htm

And a blog post
http://www.intuitive.com/blog/glimmers_of_the_virtual_economy_nexons_250_million _kart_rider.html

[soniCron]

Here's what I'd try to emulate if I were to do a racing game... For what it's worth, I suspect its massive popularity can be heavily attributed to the fact that it is free to play, without accessories. That type of payment model is a strong draw for any MMOG and has proven to be a highly effective way to expand the customer base.

[electronicStar]

For another example of fun 3D racing game, take a look at "speed busters" from UBI soft(1999).
That type of game could IMHO do well as an indie product.

[gpetersz]

Slightly offtopic, but as far as i remeber, the game was not about racing, it was about learning to drive.

No, excuse me but it's wrong. There are TWO titles, one is a racing game and one is for learning to drive...

But it is all my fault, I had to be more specific. :)

So the racing game is: "Great Clips Racing"
The learning program is: "3D Driving Academy"

According to the site FAQ the first one sold 1.5 million units, while the second one was the "most sopisthicated", and until the end of 2004 it sold over 100,000 units.

[Ronkes]

- top view 2D or full 3D ?
I wouldn't approach the problem from this angle. You're probably better of finding a good angle for your racing game, something unique, and then deciding whether your game idea works best in 2D or 3D.

- mouse or keyboard ?
If you're doing a 3D racing game, definitely keyboard. Using a mouse is just weird. With a 2D racing game I'd still think of keyboard first, but maybe you have some elements where a mouse could work. For example, if you mount weapons on the cars, you could use the mouse for aiming.

- fun or serious ?
That's a matter of taste, really. I don't now if there is a bigger market for one or the other. Just pick the one you like best and stick with it, because they require a completely different design approach.

- team management or pure arcade style ?
Again, a matter of taste. However, I think it's best to choose one and not go for a hybrid.

- physics engine or simplified movements ?
That depends on what type of game you decide to make. If it's 3D, people expect more realistic physics. If it's 2D, you can get away with simpler movement. This is probably not really an upfront decision, but something you arrive at by balancing the gameplay. You'll have to find what works best for your type of racing game.

- simple gameplay / real simulation ?
I'd go for simple gameplay. I think the fans of simulation racers are already well-served by the retail market. I suspect doing an accurate simulation is also much harder.

- any other thoughts ?
Yep. :-) There are a lot of racing games out there and they cover quite a wide range. I think the best approach to finding a good design for a new racing game, is to play a few and look for one particular aspect that you like and then design your entire game around it. Really take it all the way. For example, Burnout is all about the crashes. Stunts (remember that one?) is all about stunt car driving. Carmageddon is all about gore and mayhem, etc. Or you could really change your thinking completely and do something like Mexican Motor Mafia (http://www.mexicanmotormafia.com/).

If you can find one such an angle to a racing game, you can make a really nice and unique game out of it. Personally, I'd go for a racing game with great tactics, because I know of no other racing game that took that approach (but I haven't played them all, of course).

[clilian]

Thank you all for all this much interesting feedback !

Lilian

[Ande]

Since no one has mentioned my game, Turbo Sliders (http://www.jollygoodgames.com/turbosliders/), I have to do that :). It has been a long-term hobby project for me and the original idea was to make a game like Slicks'n'Slide (which was a popular shareware game in Finland about 10 years ago) that works over network. The main emphasis has been to make a game I want to play, not something that might maximize the number of customers. I can't give you sales numbers and it is nothing compared to the big games in big portals but at least something - mainly in Europe and especially in Finland.

Here are answers to some stuff you asked:

* 2D

* Keyboard controlled (or gamepad/joystick/wheel but I don't know if anyone uses that)

* "Fun" as the basic controls are easy and physics are not very realistic but "Serious" in that it is very hard to be good and there are not arcade-style power-ups, rubberband algorithm or car tuning. And some people are very serious about the lap records (http://ts1.jollygoodgames.com/records/) :).

* No team management (people have of course organized clans etc. though)

* Simple physics. Most cars slide a lot (that's where the name comes from). Not a real simulation.

[stanchat]

Race Cars The Extreme Rally, just appeared on Reflexive and the screenshots look pretty good.

http://reflexive.net/index.php?PAGE=game_detail&AID=427

[GhostRik]

It's very simple to make 3D racing games in 3D Rad.

www.3drad.com

One of the demos and tutorials is a racing game, and most of the logic is built-in. Even in the free version.

This is an end-of-life product and dubious for a commercial venture, but was always fun to play with.

[Greg Squire]

Here's a few more Indie Racers that I've come across (First one is released, the other two are under development).
BuggedOut Rally (http://www.inoculousgames.com/products.html)
Ambush Racing (http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/49327/9224)
Nitro (http://www.garagegames.com/mg/snapshot/view.php?qid=787)

[DFG]

I was surprised at how poorly Realore's Tiny Cars did for me - http://www.realore.com/tinycars

Maybe it was a lack of variety and not many incentives to win the races. I would think an RC ProAM clone would do well. Seems like that game was very popular on the NES. Maybe make it multiplayer over the net?

[Anlino]

No, excuse me but it's wrong. There are TWO titles, one is a racing game and one is for learning to drive...

But it is all my fault, I had to be more specific. :)

So the racing game is: "Great Clips Racing"
The learning program is: "3D Driving Academy"

According to the site FAQ the first one sold 1.5 million units, while the second one was the "most sopisthicated", and until the end of 2004 it sold over 100,000 units.

Ooops, sorry about that. I haven't heard about any racing games made with it, only the racing academy, so i though that it was what you meant.

[jasoniscool]

i'm surprised no one here has mentioned trackmania sunrise

it's such an awesomly fun game, including the multiplayer