Patents

[DanMarshall]

Just reading the post about how mini-games in loading screens are patented. Is that how come you never see any?!

How do I know what else is patented? What if running is patented in a videogame? What if Menu Screens are patented. Shooting? Being Shot? Surely it's a legal minefield?!

Being a UK citizen, does any of this concern me?

[Robert Cummings]

How is that patented? it was available on c64 games.

Ignore the patent, prior work exists everywhere.

[Sharpfish]

The thing that gets to me about patents is, I may never have seen a feature before in my life - and through weeks of brainstorming come up with my very own "unique" idea. Only to get sued for using it. That has got to be wrong. Obviously we don't want zero protection for anything, but as usual, this sounds like a daft patent that should never have been granted. I am sure a lot of devs over time have thought of adding interactivity to delayed sections of game, all for the good of the player - and someone who probably DOESN'T even use the idea anymore removes it forever from the gaming spectrum. :(

[milieu]

There's really nothing you can do. It's better, legally speaking, to be unaware that you are violating a patent, because then it's not willful violation. Like Robert said, a lot of these patents are bunk, and will eventually get thrown out as obvious or due to prior art. The problem is that no one has fought them in court yet.

Look at it this way...if your game makes no money, then there's nothing to sue you for. If you make mad money, you'll have the funds to afford defending yourself in court or paying the bastards off.

[Abscissa]

How is that patented? it was available on c64 games.

Ignore the patent, prior work exists everywhere.
Unfortunately the issue is isn't so much "Am I in the right? / Is the law on my side?" as it is "Could I afford to actually defend myself if I did get sued?". IANAL.

[Jim Buck]

Was this as a result of the Galaxian mini-game while waiting for Ridge Racer PS1 to load?

[Abscissa]

Was this as a result of the Galaxian mini-game while waiting for Ridge Racer PS1 to load?

As I understand, yea, Namco got a patent for that.

[PoV]

Yeah, the new Ridge Racer on PSP did that too. It had this cheesy little 2d racing game to play. Quite nifty.

[Robert Cummings]

The earliest I know of is it on the C64.

If I did a game with this feature and I had a solicitor's letter, then I would politely write back with the full details of the prior work plus links etc. I am pretty sure they would not take it further because I am correct. I am happy to take it to the bitter end.

Here in the UK we are entitled to legal aid if we cannot afford to defend ourselves as well however I do not know the ins and outs of it.

[Abscissa]

The earliest I know of is it on the C64.

If I did a game with this feature and I had a solicitor's letter, then I would politely write back with the full details of the prior work plus links etc. I am pretty sure they would not take it further because I am correct. I am happy to take it to the bitter end.

Here in the UK we are entitled to legal aid if we cannot afford to defend ourselves as well however I do not know the ins and outs of it.
Sounds nice. (And it would certainly be great to see that particular patent smacked into oblivion.) In the US we're entitled to legal aid if we're the defendant in a criminal case. But I'm fairly certain (although I suppose I could be wrong) the free legal aid doesn't apply to civil cases. Although, the free legal aid in criminal cases has a reputation for being kinda crappy (Don't know if that's really true or not, but I suspect it is).

[Jim Buck]

Wow, very interesting they have a patent on that.

I can understand how people would be upset about it, but how would they have been able to go about knowing there was prior art back in 1995? I mean, speaking for myself, Ridge Racer PS1 is the *only* place I ever saw this type of thing. (The same goes for other patent threads that show up on here.. I almost never have heard of the prior art some of you guys come up with.)

These days, someone could potentially post on a gamer messageboard, and almost certainly someone could come up with some obscure prior art, but this would not be the case in 1995. It would be a rare individual working at the USPTO office that would be familiar with many C64 games, and though Namco employees would have a higher chance at this, certainly none of the the Namco higher-ups who knew about getting a patent for this would not be C64 experts (Namco lawyers, etc).

[Anthony Flack]

But it does make you wonder why they even bother having an approval process for patents. It sounds like you just send the patent application in, and some guy goes, "Errrrr.... yeah. I don't see why not."

Practically every tech-related patent that comes to light has prior art up the wazoo.

[Robert Cummings]

I would like it if patent law was changed slightly so that they can be far more easily contested.

For example you would be able to email them and say patent so and so has no right to exist due to xyz, and provide proof.

And they'll have a little team working on all those little cases, and they can throw out patents which are obviously crap.

It is fairly ridiculous. I mean I would prefer it if patents for inventions just did not apply to computer software at all...

[Fabio]

Luckily at least in Europe we don't have this software patent crap.

But I wonder.. if someone in the USA sues someone in Europe, where will the latter defend himself? I mean, will the court case be in USA or in Europe?

Because to travel costs too, prohibitive costs aren't only about paying lawyers in advance.

[baegsi]

I'm wondering: has anyone ever heard of a small company being sued because of violating a game patent?

[mahlzeit]

How about Thomas Warfield (http://www.asharewarelife.com/2004/01/computer-solitaire-patented-patently.html)? I know of other shareware (non-game) developers who have also been targeted by patent holders. Usually, the only option is to settle, which means: giving them a portion of your profits (including any profits you made on the "infringing" product since you began selling it).

And software patents already do exist (http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/stats/index.en.html) in Europe.

[baegsi]

How about Thomas Warfield (http://www.asharewarelife.com/2004/01/computer-solitaire-patented-patently.html)?
Wow, patenting card play? This is insane. Or a clever rip-off.

[Repton]

Bump.

A new patent site:
http://www.patentcommons.org/

[Abscissa]

Since this has been bumped, I thought I'd add that I just found out (at least according to the game's case) that Namco also has a patent on Time Crisis's "Duck and cover/reload" system. Between that and the loading screen games I can't say I'm all thaat thrilled with Namco at this point.

[Robert Cummings]

I think that comes under gameplay, how can the patent be enforced?

[Adrian Cummings]

I think this whole issue/area regards patents is very gay... sorry I mean grey indeed :)

[gpetersz]

First. Ideas cannot be patented, only the ways of process, or the ways something is being made.
Nobody can patent a steam engine, only how he put together the steam engine. Nobody can patent a card game
, only the ways of how his card game is working. Shuffling a deck is cannot be patented...

So, loading screens cannot be patented. How can they be? "showing images to players while loading"?
There is only one way to show images (loading things into the screen buffer, the video cards memory), they can't ban you
from your PC/Mac whatever.

I'll put an image on-screen while loading. I'll say that it is done otherwise.
And how will they prove it? Reverse engine my code? What is ILLEGAL?
The court will ask me to show how I've done it? I'll show them a different code. I show them 3 different source to do it and say it
is randomly chosen by the program which to use what I've done to avoid breaking any patents... I don't care about this
damned brigands, I just don't care this scene-killers.

The EU's parliament just rejected the legal enforcement of software patents. So there ARE software patents in the EU but nobody can sue you. Maybe you can't sell the stuff in the US where the idiotic patent law is alive, but I sell it on-line, who cares?

My behavior is that I simply ignore these bastards.

[steve bisson]

Yeah, the new Ridge Racer on PSP did that too. It had this cheesy little 2d racing game to play. Quite nifty.

yeah and the psp load time is so fast that before you start your mini game its done haha. Quite useless :) its probably only there because it always been ( ps1 , ps2 version )

[Greg Squire]

I'm not opposed to other types of patents, but there is a fundamental problem with "software patents". IMHO they have done more harm than good. Here's just a sampling as to why they stifle innovation instead of protect it.

http://perens.com/Articles/PatentFarming.html
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/patent-reform-is-not-enough.html

[arcadetown]

I would like it if patent law was changed slightly so that they can be far more easily contested. For example you would be able to email them and say patent so and so has no right to exist due to xyz, and provide proof.
You have the ability to file for re-exam of a patent but it's not easy or even cheap. The patent office can say yes/no to the re-exam and if does re-exam (unlikely) later simply says yes/no again.

What I'd like to see is a 1 year public review and comments period during which outsiders can submit prior art examples to contest weak patents before being granted. IMHO the patent system is in crisis, patent office reviewers are way overworked, have very limited time/knowledge/resources to review, and once rubber stamped fighting can be very problematic/costly.

[arcadetown]

Wow was just reading this patent story about Blackberry (http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/28/technology/blackberry_fortune_121205/index.htm).

"To elevate an already troubling situation to a surreal one, the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office began reexamining NTP's patents in 2003 and as of September 2005 had preliminarily invalidated all 1,921 claims in the eight pertinent NTP patents, including all those that form the basis for NTP's suit."

Yet even with that the judge is rolling forward with decisions forcing a king's ransom type settlement on something even the USPTO preliminarily says is junk. Outrageous if ask me (is the judge getting payola?!). Perhaps might be good if shuts Blackberry down as could generate a public outcry and draw attention to how broken the patent system is.

[electronicStar]

Here's another fun bit of patent-related trivia from the Killer List of Videogames (http://www.klov.com/):


(about Gauntlet)
In June 1994, Atari applied for and was later granted a patent for a "Multi-player, mutli-character cooperative play video game with independent player entry and departure". (#USRE035314)

[Jim Buck]

In '94??? Gauntlet came out in '85! Couldn't you jump in/out of multiplayer Doom games in '93?

[vjvj]

I'm wondering: has anyone ever heard of a small company being sued because of violating a game patent?

FWIW, Creative threatened to enforce their patent on stencil shadow volumes right before Doom 3 shipped. After much bitching and controversy, id and Creative decided to compromise and do some comarketing/branding with Doom 3.

Pretty lame overall IMHO.

[cliffski]

The worst thing ever to happen to the games industry was introducing lawyers to it. The Movies cost millions, yet the lawyers wanted to can the game in the last few weeks, and throw all the work away. That tells you everything you need to know about these 'people'.