Mouse control, is it really necessary ?

[yanuart]

To my suprise, even games like JetsnGuns (which is clearly an action game) support mouse control. Now I wonder is there any of us play that kinda game with mouse ???
Is it worth the trouble to make your game adapt to mouse as mean of input (even if it means to loose some aspect of the game design since clearly you can only have two buttons.. oops.. one button)?

I've come to the final stage of my game and was wondering about this. I know that it'll only take a day of work or less to add this but I think/feel stupid doing it... pls prove me wrong ;)

[zppz]

I would say if in doubt and its less than a days work, do it. Some casual pc users barely touch the keyboard.

[Nexic]

You will get more sales if you have mouse control, simple as that. This doesn't mean that you can't have keyboard aswell, but having some kind mouse control is pretty much essential. You won't believe how many people say the main reason they wont buy one of my older games is that it was keyboard only.

Personally I don't mind keyboard control, and am quite happy playing any game with it alone, but if a game has well implemented mouse control I almost always use that instead.

[Leper]

I prefer using the mouse! The mouse is easier than the keyboard IMHO. I think a lot of people would agree with me. Even though I've been playing video games on the texas instrument and 286's, 386s, 486s, p1-now I still dont like the keyboard as much as the mouse.

[joe]

Hey, forget about the mouse: Joypad's rules :-)

Sadly, most gamers haven't a joypad altough they so cheap. It's real fun to play with them. I LOVE it to lay down in my bed, put on my notebook on my legs, take my joypad and have some fun :-)

But I also agree with Nexic that mouse control is a big plus if you want to reach a casual gamer audience (which most of us want) :cool:

[DanMarshall]

I kicked and screamed about putting Joypad support in my game. My flatmate and girlfirend were complaining "oh, it's so clunky with keys" so, just to shut them up, I bought a couple of joypads for a fiver each. Never looked back.

I think the lesson here is, that the more options you give for control the better (and that includes making sure your keys are user-definable)

d

[yanuart]

I know about the whole "but casual gamers this ...." and "but casual gamers that.." but I still think it's utterly silly to push mouse control just to appeal to them.
I can understand if it's just puzzle game but for ex. a driving game like good old TestDrive (my game isn't like that but i hope you get the gist of it), do you really want to play it using a mouse ?

but.. i give up.. yes I want the money.. yes I'll add mouse control :o

[Nexic]

still think it's utterly silly to push mouse control just to appeal to them.

It's not silly if 90% of your sales are coming from 'them' :D

[Leper]

I don't consider myself a casual gamer, but I just prefer to use the mouse to control the ship. C'mon even in FPS you use the mouse, as well as in any strategy game.

Just because you have mouse control in the game dont ever think that you're just doing it for the "casual audiance" - because quite simply the mouse is easier than both the keyboard and the joypad.

For example, Absolute Blue.. In HARD mode I PWNED the game with the mouse. I could not PWN the game in HARD mode using the keyboard or the joypad.

The mouse just makes manuvering the ship a lot easier. Because its not going at an 8 Directional method but at a 360 directional method.

I'm sorry folks, but 8 Directions aint enough. Give me 360 please. And I dont want 360 on my left thumb either.

I think that shooters that use the mouse are by far better.

Take Desperate Space for example.

If DS was using the keyboard it would be 10x harder to control that ship. Using arrow keys isn't necessarily hard, but the fact that you hold the left direction down to turn left makes the possibility to "overshoot" your turn that much easier.


If anyone makes a shooter game and adds mouse, keyboard, joypad and custom keyboard support then they will appeal to everyone. That's the most important I think.

[joe]

But lot's of joypads have also analogue sticks, some has two. But this of course only works if the game supports it.

My personal preference are digital controls in classic arcade games while I prefer mouse for Strategy and Puzzle games, analog joypad for example for soccer games (pro evolution soccer) and keyboard/mouse for fps games.

[Leper]

analog sticks just dont have the same control as a mouse(for me of course!), when looking at anything 2D. I do prefer analog sticks in some 3D games, but mostly I'm a mouse person.

I do like the joypad with analog control in a platformer game. The only appeal keyboard or joypad have with shooters is the "retro appeal" - but for me control overrides the retro feel.

Ultimately I think we all are different and prefer different controls, which is why adding custom control settings is a great way to boost sales.

[Midnight Synergy]

Is Mouse support "necessary"? I'd say no. While many a game might sell better with mouse support, the essential question to ask is, imho, "What is the best control for this particular game".

With Intensity XS I needed the ship to be moved very rapidly across the screen for the design of some of the challenges. So I made the game mouse-only! It was actually one of the first shmups to use (certainly require) mouse control, and I tell you I initially got a lot of flack from Shmup sites about this - but it turned out to be just the right thing for this particular game.

With Wonderland - even though I get the occasional question about mouse control - I could not come up with a mouse driven scheme that was anywhere near as smooth to control the characters with than the keyboard. You had to be able to start and stop and turn on a dime in later levels, and here the mouse just didn't work. As someone said in another thread (I'm paraphrasing) - "putting an inferior control scheme (e.g. mouse control for a keyboard game) into a game can actually harm the sales of your game, since players will likely choose mouse control as a default, and hence be playing an inferior version of your game." It might make some the game "look" better to the casual market, but it would have made the game less good, and that's were draw the line.

And yes, both games sold/sell quite well.

Having said all this, if I were starting a new game design, I would be tempted to mold the design around a good mouse control - i.e. plan the game from the start to be best played with a mouse, given the players in the casual market.

Just my two cents. Carry on.

[oNyx]

Adding mouse control to a shmup as an afterthought is pretty silly imo. It really breaks the balance, because the player can react way slower now, making it alot easier. The whole timing thing is off and you dont need to plan anything.

One could argue that controls which make the game easier are certainly the better controls. But its not that simple. It removes gameplay elements, which make the game easier as a side effect. And well, there are people who like this elements. There are also games with two moving speeds (Eg you are slower when using the secondary fire) and other games use upgrade systems where you can speed up your ship. With mouse control these elements go directly to the trash bin.

Some games try to get rid of that blanace-breaking-advantage by using damping, but imo it doesnt solve anything. It feels indirect and fuzzy. Meh.

Intensity XS for example is ok, because it was build with mouse controls in mind from the very beginning (I think it doesnt even support keyboard/joypads). So, the difficulty is just right - even with mouse controls.

Oh and most mouse controlled shmups (w/o damping) have a glitch. You can just press pause, move the mouse to some save spot and continue the game. Its like warping ;)

[svero]

Well... I think maybe trying to force mouse control onto a game that isn't designed for it might actually be bad. Because then some players who would have otherwise bought may use the mouse by default and not realize there's a better control sceme and not enjoy the game because the controls aren't so hot.

[Nexic]

I think the best way to go if you are not sure about the mouse control in your game is to make sure you allow the player to use both without them having to set an option. This is what Xeno Assault did, ie if you move the mouse the ship will move, but if you start pressing keys the ships will also move with those aswell, and you can use the left mouse button, or the space bar, or the joy button etc.

Iggle Pop allowed both without anyone having to change any options and I think that worked quite well. When I first played it I immediately started pressing the keys because it felt more natural to me, but my girlfriend tried using the mouse first. I think this is by far the best way, let them choose the best control method for themselves without them even needing to spend time setting an option!

I'm pretty certain that if Iggle Pop required her to use the keys my girlfriend wouldn't have played it.

[joe]

I think the best way to go if you are not sure about the mouse control in your game is to make sure you allow the player to use both without them having to set an option.

Wow, this is a very cool way to provide various controls. I will defnitly keep that in my mind!

[bignobody]

I think the best way to go if you are not sure about the mouse control in your game is to make sure you allow the player to use both without them having to set an option.

I totally agree. My work in progress will allow the user to play with keyboard, mouse and joystick/gamepad. The more choice for the player has, the less chance they'll be disappointed!

[Leper]

I think the best way to go if you are not sure about the mouse control in your game is to make sure you allow the player to use both without them having to set an option.

Yes, a very wise statement indeed!

[ravuya]

Provide as many choices (not "options") as possible. Like Nexic said, let them use the mouse or the keyboard (or joypads, if possible) without having to toggle an option or read the manual.

Of course, if your game uses both the mouse and keyboard intentionally (like mine) you probably should offer remappable functions in case someone wants to move with the mouse and shoot with the keyboard, or vice versa.

[GBGames]

The question reminds me of those "Do you have to make casual games to be an indie?" or some variation of "Where can I formally sign up to become officially validated in whatever I endeavor?"

B-)

That said, obviously it isn't mandatory, but I know that when I sit in front of a menu after loading a game, using a mouse to select the options is my first instinct. After some time, I will get comfortable enough to use the keyboard instead. Games that provide either keyboard or mouse input but not both tend to throw me off.

How many of us use a mouse? I play RTS, TBS, FPS, and all sorts of games that make use of a mouse. Shooters especially make sense either way.

So why fear the mouse control? As said, if it won't take long, do it. If you are really scared to implement this functionality, then just ask your customers what they think. They'll be the ones to validate it's existence for you better than common wisdom or peers would, right?

[Anthony Flack]

I think the best way to go if you are not sure about the mouse control in your game is to make sure you allow the player to use both without them having to set an option.


Something to be wary of here is the unintentional moving of another input device. A mouse is very easy to bump, and a joypad sitting on the floor can screw up your game as well. Both of these I can attest to first hand (the number of times I've gone hunting for a "bug" that was actually a joypad lying facedown under the computer...)

Also, with a few exceptions (mostly scrolling shooters), mouse controls and keyboard controls don't function the same way. You don't usually move a mouse pointer with the keys, and you don't usually move an avatar directly with the keyboard. The upshot of this is that these two input methods can clash with each other and cause your controls to lock up if you're not very cunning and careful.

There is also the issue that James raised a while back - if you don't explicitly give people the choice, then whatever they try first will be assumed to be the only option. Which is fine if what they try first is what they prefer, but it might not always be the case.

[CabalDoug]

I know about the whole "but casual gamers this ...." and "but casual gamers that.." but I still think it's utterly silly to push mouse control just to appeal to them.


Silly to appeal to potential customers? To me that statement seems silly. I don't mean any offense. Listening to consumers is vitally important. Unelss you don't care about making money of course. But you bring up a good point. Don't put mouse input in the game if it just doesn't make sense. If it confuses the user, then that's worse than not adding it. This is especially true in your example of test drive.

The reason the mouse is absolutely necessary for most types of games is because users think of it as the easiest most intuitive device to use for input. There is a reason everything is "point in click". Whatever you decide, good luck with your game!

Doug Linley
Presient/Producer, Cabal Games LLC
doug.linley@cabalgames.com

[yanuart]

Don't put mouse input in the game if it just doesn't make sense.
that's what I'm trying to raise by this thread.

I think the best way to go if you are not sure about the mouse control in your game is to make sure you allow the player to use both without them having to set an option.
great idea.. jetsnguns use this approach.. but..

There is also the issue that James raised a while back - if you don't explicitly give people the choice, then whatever they try first will be assumed to be the only option.
holy crap.. that is true! Now I wonder if there's a chance some potential customers get turned off because they happen to experience mouse control first (for ex. after menu it's obvious that you'll still holding the mouse when you get into the game) and feel it's weird.
What do you guys think is the best :
1. Having all 3 input (keyboard, mouse, gamepad) operate at the same time so player don't have to switch anything
2. Lock the/some input control from the player unless the player wants it , for ex : there's an option to "enable mouse control"

[oNyx]

There is also a third (pretty weird) option: <edit>for shmups</edit>
-Having two totally different ships #1 can be controlled mouse only and #2 can be controlled with keyboard/gamepad

Hmm... could be fun. Two player, too :)

[Nexic]

I really doubt that if they can use any method they would automatically try the the method they least like first, doesn't make much sense to me. Eitherway this problem is easily fixed by putting hints/info screens into the game.

The thing with accidentally touching one of the other things could be a mini problem, but I doubt the user would blame the game for them knocking the mouse off the desk while playing... The joystick thing is a fairly major one though, with Xeno Assault I got tons of people emailing me saying the ship kept flying to the top of the screen, in 100% of the cases it was because their joystick wasn't centered or was laying on the floor. So for the next game I'm doing dual keyboard and mouse, but joystick/gamepad has to be activated in the options and defaults to off.

[Anthony Flack]

I really doubt that if they can use any method they would automatically try the the method they least like first, doesn't make much sense to me.


No, they'd automatically try the mouse first, since they have it in their hand when the game starts. Whether that is the method they least like, we don't know.

They'd probably be least likely to try a gamepad, even if they had one nearby and it was their preferred control method. Especially if things have already gotten rolling with the mouse.

As for bumping the mouse - how serious this is depends on the control method of the game. I've got keyboard and mouse enabled at the same time on my game here, and I've experienced the clashes. They won't be staying like that for release, it's a liability for keyboard players. The mouse will always be enabled for menus, but not in-game unless you ask for it.

And that's the thing, really - if you're going to tell the player about the different control options (and you should), you might as well ask them which one they'd like to use while you're at it.

[yanuart]

No, they'd automatically try the mouse first, since they have it in their hand when the game starts. Whether that is the method they least like, we don't know.
hmm.. what about player's instinct ? when i play shmups/action games my instinct is to go to the keyboard first and not mouse.
It's suprising that many japanese games (PC) are using a standard configuration for keyboard with arrow keys and Z&X, maybe we ought to do this.

Gamepad is a whole lot of trouble though, I'm having a hard time setting up the default gamepad configuration. The problem is that buttons configuration varies among gamepad manufacturers so it's hard to tell wether Button N is either a start button/L/R/X, etc :confused: .
For those of you who had gamepad support in their game, how do you solve this problem ?

I'm trying to put as many hints as possible in the game regarding this but I wonder it'll turn off player instead. The other option is : to force gamer to use keyboard (mouse and gamepad must be enabled through option) and give hints that they can actually have option to choose other input device.
What do you guys think ?

[soniCron]

The other option is : to force gamer to use keyboard (mouse and gamepad must be enabled through option) and give hints that they can actually have option to choose other input device.
What do you guys think ? First, It depends on the game. If any control scheme breaks the game, or makes it incredibly "unfun," then don't use it. Period. Second, making the player click through all the menus with the mouse only then to start forcing them on the keyboard isn't very nice. It's a very uncomfortable transition from a mouse-based menu to a keyboard input game, the first time. Perhaps you could pop up a "choose one" box with the three options of control before playing the first time.

[papillon]

Speaking of accidents detecting a "preferred" method... when I was trying out the demo for Farenheit/Indigo Prophecy, it noticed I had a gamepad plugged in and defaulted control to that, not giving me any chance to change it until AFTER they'd given all the instruction on how to play the game.

Problem is, it's a *SNES-style* gamepad for playing retro games, and all their instructions involved "Now use the LEFT joystick to do this and the RIGHT joystick to do that...."

Had to unplug the stupid thing to get the game to give me instructions for using the mouse!

[KNau]

It's suprising that many japanese games (PC) are using a standard configuration for keyboard with arrow keys and Z&X, maybe we ought to do this.

Oh my god, please no! I know Japanese and even some European developers like to use z,x type controls but it makes no sense when there's a big friggin' space bar and CTRL key. I can't believe the stupidity of games that require me to hit the tiny little z to fire but leave the bigger, more user friendly keys vacant.

Designers need to start thinking in terms of the strengths and weaknesses of the platforms they develop for. The massive strength of the PC is this super-accurate and intuitive control device called a mouse. They keyboard is also a strength in terms of allowing more inputs and interactivity (also known as "why no flight simulator will ever be any good on consoles").

The mouse should always be the primary point of interactivity.

[Anthony Flack]

I know Japanese and even some European developers like to use z,x type controls but it makes no sense when there's a big friggin' space bar and CTRL key.

Nobody likes to use the space bar - it's rattly and unwieldly... bigger isn't always better. And it's too far away from the ctrl key, if that's going to be your other one. I like using ctrl and alt, but the problem a lot of other people have with that is that stupid windows key in between them. Z and X is actually pretty comfortable and easy to use, and less likely to clash with the cursor keys too, I think. But the keys should be redefinable anyway, of course.



The massive strength of the PC is this super-accurate and intuitive control device called a mouse.

Trouble is, the mouse is only really suitable for controlling mouse pointers. It's no good saying that you should always use the mouse if you're writing a Mario-style game.

[Nexic]

You've also got the problem of some keyboards that don't let you push certain arrow keys when holding down the control keys like alt, ctrl and space bar.

[oNyx]

Yea, the key matrix of most keyboards (eg cherry) doesnt allow space together with all 8 cursor directions. Well, space shouldnt be used anyways... its noisy and tiresome.

Z/X/C is pretty nice in theory, but its quite annoying on a german keyboard (Z and Y are exchanged there). X/C/V or A/S/D doesnt have that problem. But X/C/V would be irritating for some, therefore I wouldnt use it as default. Z/X/C and A/S/D (together) should work very well as default bindings. Or just ctrl if you need only one button.

[jankoM]

We have Z and Y switched too (slovenia) and it really kills a lot of fun playing Z(Y)/X/C games A/S/D would be great to have in that case. I too hate pressing big space key... fells so much work.

[Anthony Flack]

It's an interesting point - what should the default keys be?

We'll assume that the keys are redefinable, because they should be (for the above reasons, and more). The cursor keys are the obvious choice for movement, which I don't think anyone would dispute. But what about fire buttons? What is the best default choice for 1 button games, 2 button games, or 3 button games? Is it a good idea to play it safe with multiple buttons, and where do you draw the line? (IIRC, Jet Set Willy defined pretty much the whole keyboard to be either left, right or jump)

[Coolhand]

the problem a lot of other people have with that is that stupid windows key in between them

You're right on the mark there. The windows key is from the devil I tell you... THE DEVIL!!!! :mad:

[HappyCat]

The closest I could find to a standard was cursors + Z, X, and C. Looks like Z is a bad idea though, so I'd be interested to hear what others think. I'm not a big fan of the spacebar (for the reasons mentioned before), but it is the most obvious choice for a default "fire/jump" key.

[Leper]

I like the CTRL key and spacebar actually... But if I can use mouse I will use mouse 1st. If the game has an extreme retro feel, I'll use the gamepad. :)

[Anthony Flack]

Ctrl+Spacebar is a fairly uncomfortable (to me) 4-5cm apart on my keyboard, but on Japanese keyboards (which have a few extra keys on the bottom row and typically have spacebars about the size of a regular shift key) it's closer to 10cm.

Then again, like Z & X, if it doesn't work out so well on certain keyboards that's okay. People can always redefine. But what are the most usable, friendly, hopefully non-matrix-clashing, and above all expected keys to use, I wonder?

Not academically, either. I'll be setting my own default keys soon. And right now it's a toss-up between CTRL-ALT and Z-X I think.

[Leper]

. But what are the most usable, friendly, hopefully non-matrix-clashing, and above all expected keys to use, I wonder?


Man I'm tellin 'ya its CTRL and spacebar, shift and alt.
Those keys were used in the DOS days and are still used today.
Z and X I never seen used except in an SNES emulaor.
I know that there are peeps that dont like CTRL and spacebar, shift and alt BUT I really think they are used the most.

[Sharpfish]

Well, the space bar certainly is a bit more rattly and cumbersome than other keys, though this largely depends on the quality of your keyboard. However in 99% of FPSs I (and millions of other users) tap the space bar with our thumbs while to jump while using WASD movment and have no problems! And in these games jumping ability counts big time so it must be ok?

If it was the sole "button" in your shooter game ( to fire) I agree it would feel flappy and unresponsive but the ctrl/shft/alt/space layout described by Leper is fine because you again rest your THUMB on the spacebar and for some reason space bars just work with thumbs (the same way they do when typing) but with normal finger presses it feels rubbish... :)

[Leper]

... you again rest your THUMB on the spacebar and for some reason space bars just work with thumbs (the same way they do when typing) but with normal finger presses it feels rubbish... :)
Very True. The thumb uses the spacebar. It does feel weird when pressed by another finger.

When I play a keyboard shooter

I use my right index finger, middle finger, and ring finger on the arrow keys. I then put my left index finger (sometimes my left middle finger shares the same key for some reason lol) on the left CTRL key.

I dont like the right CTRL key used for shooting, but the left.

Now I do admit that since windows keyboards came out that I had pressed the windoze key on accident a few times, but I learned not to after just a couple months. I also think that anybody who started using PC's after the DOS days were long over, that they dont experience the CTRL key / windows start menu key mistake at all. I think that mistake only occures for those who were not used to such a key in existance (the older peeps who played with MS DOS 3.0) Anybody who can recall the "640k barrier" or anything like that probably has hit the winbloze key on accident, haha.