Must Indie Game Developers make Casual Games?

[indiemaker]

It seems like the only type of Indie games that are sucessful are Casual games. Is there any other option for Indie Developers than the Casual route?

I wish I could make games that I want to play, but is there a market for those?

RPGs. Driving games. etc.

[Black Hydra]

No, of course you don't have to make casual games.

Whether or not that is the most financially viable route is another story, however.

People here tend to make casual games simply because these games can be made to a professional level at tiny fractions of the cost of hardcore games.

[Jack Norton]

Are you sure of what you are saying?
http://www.positech.co.uk
http://www.spidweb.com
http://www.nbsd.de
http://sillysoft.net

maybe more but I'm lazy... ah check also my signature ;)

[indiemaker]

Are you sure of what you are saying?
http://www.positech.co.uk
http://www.spidweb.com
http://www.nbsd.de
http://sillysoft.net

maybe more but I'm lazy... ah check also my signature ;)


No, I'm not really sure of what I'm saying. That's why I asked.

From what I can see, the large portals have games that are mostly casual oriented, implying that the market for downloadable games is mostly for casual gamers. Otherwise, we'd see games from spiderweb, positech on these portals, right?

[Jack Norton]

http://www.realarcade.com/game?gameid=starlinesinc
http://www.realarcade.com/game?gameid=geneforge
http://www.realarcade.com/game?gameid=geneforge2

on the other hand, none of those games was in top#10 I think, so if you want to get rich with portals sure you need to make a casual game!

[papillon]

From what I can see, the large portals have games that are mostly casual oriented, implying that the market for downloadable games is mostly for casual gamers. Otherwise, we'd see games from spiderweb, positech on these portals, right?



.... or you could also say that there is no market for shoes, because there aren't any shoes in the hat shop. :)

There is more than one customer and more than one type of customer out there in the big wide world.

[cliffski]

a game like Democracy isnt on portals for two reasons:

1) i dont want most portals to have it, I like taking 90% of the money thanks :D
and
2) Most portals have no idea that a game like that sells as well as it does.

And long may that situation continue. I like the fact that my genre of games is not portal friendly. My next game probably won't be either (haven't got far enough in to be sure yet.)

[indiemaker]

Do you both make enough to make a living on your games? I notice both of you (Cliffski, Papillion) have a decent sized catalogue of games that are not casual.

That's what I want to do. Make games that are not casual games but games I want to play. But is there a market for them? How do you find your customers?

Ok..I realize this thread is going off Design subject so please move this thread if necessary to another section.

[svero]

Id just like to say that casual games are not really that cheap to make anymore. The standard for what a top casual game looks and plays like is so high now that they're actually pretty expensive to produce nowdays if you want AAA quality. Companies are spending 6-8 months or even longer developing some of the titles that are being released. It's still technically possible to release something quicker, but it's getting harder if you want to be competitive.

[indiemaker]

Id just like to say that casual games are not really that cheap to make anymore. The standard for what a top casual game looks and plays like is so high now that they're actually pretty expensive to produce nowdays if you want AAA quality. Companies are spending 6-8 months or even longer developing some of the titles that are being released. It's still technically possible to release something quicker, but it's getting harder if you want to be competitive.


But how expensive could a casual game be? One programmer could do it all, and all you need is a top notch artist.

But after awhile, the market will be saturated with casual games if every month, a batch of new highly polished games enter the already crowded market.

I think that in the long term, casual games will die off because it's not sustainable. These games don't have the depth of gameplay to keep the market going. Or these casual games will become throwaway games, something to be played for a short while, and forgotten.

But I could be wrong. I still don't get why certain Casual games are hits, and selling well.

[Anlino]

Check out Gish (http://www.chroniclogic.com/gish.htm) from Chroniclogic. Man, if that game is casual, then every game is. The most amazing game i have ever played, period.

[indiemaker]

Check out Gish (http://www.chroniclogic.com/gish.htm) from Chroniclogic. Man, if that game is casual, then every game is. The most amazing game i have ever played, period.


nice game, I agree. I wonder if it sold well.

No offense to all the casual game makers, but games like Gish is what Indies should be making. Gish should be a top seller, not another arkanoid clone. No offense.

[Sillysoft]

I make a good living from selling my strategy game Lux. It's non-casual and also non-hardcore. I started making it not for the money, but because it was the game that I wanted to play. Money has come out of it, but it has been a longer growth period then I think some casual games provide. I gradually built up the game and the player community over a few years, and the sales steadily grew. Also, I have continued to market the game as much as possible, created a well optimized website and I pay for advertising every month (google adwords mostly).

So I'm not saying that it's a walk in the park, but it's definitely possible to make your living creating downloadable games that fall outside the 'casual games' label.

[baegsi]

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=4727

One can make quite a comfortable living in niches nobody heard of before, I guess.

[digriz]

The reason i'm writing my own "indie" game is because the games i work on in my day job are not necessarily the games i want to play myself.

From my own personal standpoint i wouldn't spend my evenings and weekends writing a game i don't enjoy playing.

There are "indie" developers out there that make the games that they want and they most definately wouldn't be classed as casual. Retro64 for example.

To me, "Casual" is starting to sound like a dirty word. I associate it more and more with match-3 games and the markets being flooded with them. I don't blame people for writing them though, the perception is that you will get some sales. But i wouldn't write one, generally they don't interest me anymore.

[Michael Flad]

Here's an example for a racing game - it's of course a pretty big project and not something one would just do without a really good plan and with enough knowhow/experience.

http://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=whatislfs

I do not know if they're profitable or how sales are, but judging from the screenshots they're not that far away from the typical big budget racers in terms of quality.

[vjvj]

The game I'm working on is not a casual game at all, and I'm breaking a lot of the rules typically set forth on these forums.

The reason I stick around here is because I really like the community and think there are a lot of smart/experienced people. Signal to noise ratio is much better here than say, gamedev.net ;)

[puggy]

it really depends on your term "indie" (and i don't want to get into this arguement). The very small (and thus numerous) 1-3 man teams don't have the resources normally to make the biggish games to tend to stay on the casual front. while not true for all it is a trend. You then have the more well funded teams which do make bigger games, an example could be lionhead studios which make black and white, the movies. While there a big company, they are still, in my opinion independant. They make the games they want to make and the way they want to make it. A good example would be there up comming game "the movies", could you really see the likes of EA making this type of game. Most of the inovative games they publish are made by other companies, the only real exception is "the sims", but they were relavtivly safe becuase it's based on there popular brand sim city with a big following, which they got from buying out maxis.

There will probably be a more varied smaller indie market as specialied and cheap tools (torque, realmcrafter etc etc) are comming out, aimed at the smaller development teams and people who want to try to make games. There strategy is to make a good tool but to sell it low and to sell many. A good example is realmcrafter. Just released this month and selling for $55 per seat there has been a big demand. last month they pre sold 100 copies and these were snapped up within a few hours. The tool is very easy to use and you can make a mmorpg relativly quickly (esp if you get they models instead making them) with a visual quality of between EQ1 and EQ2. With promised continual development and inproved graphics this package could provide the ability to rival some of the top mmorpg's out there.

The tools are out there to be able to create good game quickly which arn't casual, downside is you might not be able to do everything you want with the engines. It's all about your idea, ability to carry out that idea and funding.

[soniCron]

...the only real exception is "the sims", but they were relavtivly safe becuase it's based on there popular brand sim city with a big following, which they got from buying out maxis. Off-topic, but for the record: EA tried to kill The Sims numerous times before it was released.

[Greg Squire]

"casual" games have gotten a focus of late as "being where the money is". I don't think you have to make a casual game to make decent money. In fact it might make sense to do just the opposite, that is "appeal to a niche market". Doors are also opening in the "ex-gamer" (or "casual hard-core", not sure what to call it) space, with Live Arcade on the xbox 360 (see http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=4744).

I think other doors will open elsewhere as well (just keep an eye on the market). "where one door closes another will open". I think the advice to "make a game you are passionate about, and then find (or build) the market for it" is some good advice. There will be a market for your game, but the size may be smaller, and the channels to get to the customer may not exist (you might have to build them). I believe it can be done. (I've heard too much pessimism lately) It may not be the path to riches, but at least you'll have a good feeling about what you've done.

[soniCron]

I think the advice to "make a game you are passionate about, and then find (or build) the market for it" is some good advice. There will be a market for your game, but the size may be smaller, and the channels to get to the customer may not exist (you might have to build them)... It may not be the path to riches, but at least you'll have a good feeling about what you've done. I'm not sure that I agree with that advice. At the very least I think it's important that you identify the market, or potential market, and channels of distribution for any product you wish to create before you develop it. Otherwise, you could find yourself committing suicide without realizing it. If a developer isn't in it for the money by any stretch of the imagination, then that's a suitable approach, but for any serious developer, it's a little irresponsible. Making something you care about may give you a good feeling, but trying to sell a product nobody wants will quickly dash those feelings on the rocks. But, then again, if you're not in it for money or acceptance, then go right ahead. :)

[Greg Squire]

I'm not sure that I agree with that advice. At the very least I think it's important that you identify the market, or potential market, and channels of distribution for any product you wish to create before you develop it. Otherwise, you could find yourself committing suicide without realizing it. If a developer isn't in it for the money by any stretch of the imagination, then that's a suitable approach, but for any serious developer, it's a little irresponsible. Making something you care about may give you a good feeling, but trying to sell a product nobody wants will quickly dash those feelings on the rocks. But, then again, if you're not in it for money or acceptance, then go right ahead. :)

I agree you don't want to enter anything "blind" (it's import to do up front research), but I don't think you should "give up your dream game" just because someone says it won't sell. There are always "nay sayers" out there. Lots of succesful companies never would have started if they had listened to the negative voices. Market research can give an indicator of things, but it's not a "crystal ball" to see into the future. Basically I agree with what Dan is saying in his article Passion before Profitability (http://www.gametunnel.com/html/section-viewarticle-116.html).

[Geom]

Writing the kinds of game you want to play is definitely the way to go IMO. That's where the job satisfaction is. And it gives you the best chance of coming up with something truly original and fresh.

True, in a worse case scenario you run the risk of writing something that you like but nobody else does. But, I think that alpha & beta testing mitigates that risk to a great degree. You can always incorporate player feedback and compromise on some aspects of the game's design to reach to a wider audience.

Indiemaker, I'm in somewhat the same boat, I plan to write an RTS and that's about as non-casual as a game can get. I have some ideas which, as far as I know (and that's not very far :) ) are original for an RTS game. I'm hoping that when veteran players see those ideas they'll say, "hey, why didn't anyone do that sooner!" That's my strategy for some small measure of popularity and success. But even if that doesn't happen, I plan to have a blast writing the game!

[James H]

Writing the kinds of game you want to play is definitely the way to go IMO. That's where the job satisfaction is. And it gives you the best chance of coming up with something truly original and fresh.Yes, but with some notable exceptions. I have seen some people get very wrapped up in developing certain types of games that I'd argue there isn't a market for. A good example is the retro shooter redone with lots of glowy GPU effects and so on. New video hardware enables the effects, but the fundamental flaws are still there, namely that abstract sci-fi games, especially those requiring a high degree of skill, don't have enough broad appeal to bank on as an indie developer.

In this case the developer isn't being fresh or innovative, but pandering to his own nostalgia.