RE: your first game sales....

[NothingLikeit]

Okay I'm going to release my first title real soon. I dont really expect to get rich. I'd be happy just to generate a few sales early on. Especially since this is only my first game. so anywho.

What were you guys/gals first commercial game expectations and how dead on were they?

Were you disappointed? Elated?

[Nexic]

I was hoping to make about 10,000 sales, but I expected more like 500, I actually got 1.

[NothingLikeit]

did you have any advertising or marketing on the game? Or did you just post it on your website. I guess I'm askin' because I don't know what to expect without a portal release and just doing direct selling on my web site. Did you ever figure out why your sales were so low?

[Savant]

I was expecting some decent performance from Dr.Germ but a few things are surprising me/teaching me things:

1) The Mac version is outselling the Windows version by a country mile. It's scary really. It's going to hit a few Windows based portals in the next week so we'll see if things change but I'm not entirely hopeful. I think Windows users are burning out on indie games.

2) Real Arcade didn't want it. That surprised me but unfortunately I haven't figured out the lesson there yet. I will eventually.

3) Overall I'm happy with Dr.Germ as a personal accomplishment and it's selling well enough that I can say, "Yeah, that was worth it".

[soniCron]

I think Windows users are burning out on indie games. Why do you think that?

[Nexic]

Did you ever figure out why your sales were so low?

The game was rubbish.

[Savant]

Why do you think that?
I think only entrenched portal sites can sell games in any significant quantities these days. I run a small game site (Game Savant) and people are very interested in downloading the games but sales are far less than stellar. Just what I've observed over the last 6 months or so.

My opinion - Windows users are so inundated with new game demos they have no reason to buy anything. Even solely focusing on Reflexive Arcade, you have 4-5 new games coming out every week. Why would you buy any of them when you have 5 more coming your way in a week? Just download the games this week, play out their hour long demos, and download the next batch in a few days.

Factor in all the other game sites, online games you can play in your browser, and other demo outlets and you've got more demos than you could ever finish playing.

Eh, just talking I guess. I know that someone will post soon saying that I'm insane since they are able to sell lots of games. There are exceptions to be sure. But, on the whole, unless you're selling through portals or you have an established user base that you've had for the past 5+ years - odds are that you're not going to do very well on Windows.

Mac, as I said, seems to be a whole different world. I would highly recommend that every indie do a Mac version of their game. Don't even think about it - just do it. They are apparently starved for games and are willing to buy.

[soniCron]

Sorry to continue this off-topic discussion, but do you think it may have something to do with lack of originality? Why buy something if you've already got one just like it, and/or you can expect another three in a week?

[Savant]

Sorry to continue this off-topic discussion, but do you think it may have something to do with lack of originality? Why buy something if you've already got one just like it, and/or you can expect another three in a week?
Of course it does. Why would someone buy 7 clones of arcade lines or bejeweled?

The trouble is, the flood of knock off puzzle games each week is crowding out anything that might be unique and cool. It can't get noticed without the kind of marketing that most indies can't afford.

I think the market is turning. I think people have been burned by clone after clone and they're buying less as a result.

Again, this is all my opinion and I've only been doing this for around 6 months now. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

[Ricardo C]

The game was rubbish.

After hearing so much about your "infamous" first game, I finally managed to track it down (alright, so it only took a couple of minutes, but still ;)).

Quite an experience, I must say.

[Greg Squire]

...Real Arcade didn't want it. ...

Savant, did Real Arcade give you any reasons why they wouldn't take it? If they did, I'd be curious to know what those were, as Dr. Germ seems like a very portal friendly game to me.

[Savant]

Savant, did Real Arcade give you any reasons why they wouldn't take it? If they did, I'd be curious to know what those were, as Dr. Germ seems like a very portal friendly game to me.
There's not much to the story. I showed them an early version and they seemed interested but when I showed them the final they said:

"We did review Dr.Germ again and I am sorry to say that we are going to pass. It is looking better but still not quite what we are looking for. I hope this does not discourage you in any way and look forward to hearing from you any time."

So, very nice and cordial. They just aren't interested in it. No specific reasons given and I didn't push the issue.

[Nexic]

They are pretty busy this time of year, lots of very high quality releases coming out. They are thinking about running Desperate Space but I'm certainly not keeping my hopes too high.

[NothingLikeit]

I don't care if this goes off topic. After all we're here to talk arent we? :D

But along the lines of what Savant was saying. I read the casual games white paper over the summer. They made a point very simmilar to what you said. There's just too many demos of the same game out. The example they gave was a player runs out a demo of his/her game they can download a new demo from a different portal and just play the game again. I mean sure they may have to start over but would they care if they're casual? Probably not.

Thatsaid we can't get rid of demos it's engrained into our shareware history. But something should be done about very simmillar games posted. I mean honestly how many break out clones do we need? There's actually a category on gametunnel's site just for all the breakout/arknoid clones. The glut of similar titles is what nearly killed the industry way back in the day. But as indies we get to make what we want. So if you want to make a puzzle game don't try to be bejewled becuase you may have a tough time selling it..... But by looking at some game portals... maybe you won't.

On another unrelated note. Savant your GameSavant site does something very simmilar to what I wanted to do. I wanted to make an editorial site for reviewing the games of others. Plus make some affiliate sales via downloads.

What was your reason for doing this site? Do you discuss your own games throught the GameSavant editorial? Do you get affiliate Sales? Did you find it better to approach the developers themselves? Or did you hook up with an affiliate program?

Sorry for the 40 questions but I'm just starting out. I'm kinda new at this business thing....

[AlexN]

There's not much to the story. I showed them an early version and they seemed interested but when I showed them the final they said:

"We did review Dr.Germ again and I am sorry to say that we are going to pass. It is looking better but still not quite what we are looking for. I hope this does not discourage you in any way and look forward to hearing from you any time."

So, very nice and cordial. They just aren't interested in it. No specific reasons given and I didn't push the issue.

This is sad. :( I also intend to publish my first title on RealArcade, I hope I won't receive this kind of reply. But then again, I don't think anyone would want to receive such replies.

I'm sorry they didn't accept your game. :(

[lakibuk]

I hope I won't receive this kind of reply. But then again, I don't think anyone would want to receive such replies.I think the reply is ok, it's honest and friendly. Most portals i have contacted didn't even bother to send me a reply.

[Savant]

I think the reply is ok, it's honest and friendly. Most portals i have contacted didn't even bother to send me a reply.
No, I don't have any problem with the reply. It was polite and professional. I was just surprised that they didn't want it, that's all.


On another unrelated note. Savant your GameSavant site does something very simmilar to what I wanted to do. I wanted to make an editorial site for reviewing the games of others. Plus make some affiliate sales via downloads.

What was your reason for doing this site? Do you discuss your own games throught the GameSavant editorial? Do you get affiliate Sales? Did you find it better to approach the developers themselves? Or did you hook up with an affiliate program?
I wanted to do a download site and see if I could make a go of it. And I still am trying, of course. But thus far the results have been less than exciting.

I have an affiliate deal with Reflexive that lets me sell games via their arcade program. I also set up affiliate deals with developers via - well, just about any payment provider out there although I prefer Plimus just because it's the easiest of any of them.

I generally post the Reflexive games as they come available and if a developer approaches me independently of that and wants their game added (and has an affiliated version), I'll add it. I'm not too choosy at this point which I -think- is a problem. Trying to be everything to everyone is generally a mistake and I believe that's what's hurting me.

I might open another site in the coming months that is highly specialized on a certain kind of game and see where that takes me. This general portal direction doesn't seem to be panning out.

[Jack Norton]

Eh, just talking I guess. I know that someone will post soon saying that I'm insane since they are able to sell lots of games. There are exceptions to be sure. But, on the whole, unless you're selling through portals or you have an established user base that you've had for the past 5+ years - odds are that you're not going to do very well on Windows.

Mac, as I said, seems to be a whole different world. I would highly recommend that every indie do a Mac version of their game. Don't even think about it - just do it. They are apparently starved for games and are willing to buy.
It might just be because on windows the piracy is 1000xtimes more than on mac? :eek:

[Savant]

That could be. But, really, with the way most indie games are distributed on the Mac (dmg files) it's even easier to pirate stuff than it is on Windows. Yet, they're buying.

[Jack Norton]

Well don't forget that you are featured in main page. That makes huge difference...I still sell more UBM on windows than mac, but UBM was never featured in mainpage of apple.com ;)

[NothingLikeit]

Is piracy really a big issue among indie games? I'm sure its not as big as 'mainstream' industry games.

[Anatoly]

But pretty much anyone can google for "[nameofjustdownloadedsharewaregame] crack" and crack it! It is a big issue because you don't sell so much copies as AAA titles do!

[Andy]

Is piracy really a big issue among indie games? I'm sure its not as big as 'mainstream' industry games.

Why do you suppose so NothingLike? Because of that stupid reports of Big Brothers about billions they have lost on piracy?

When you will get your game cracked - if it wouldn't done immediately after the release you will notice 10 times more dowloads per day in the nearest month or so.. - These are pirates came for their harvest ;)

[papillon]

But pretty much anyone can google for "[nameofjustdownloadedsharewaregame] crack" and crack it!


Not if you're using a separate full version. But that whole discussion has been had SO many times already that it would really be more sensible to just go read more board archives than make us hash it out again. :)

[Jack Norton]

Not if you're using a separate full version.
Yes, in that case they need to do a different google search "[nameofthegame] bit torrent" :D

[Black Hydra]

Even if piracy sucks, is there much of anything any of us can really do about it? The consensus I keep hearing is that any effort you spend into anti-piracy beyond minimum protection is going to have minimal results. Unless the internet changes aren't we just going to have to live with it? Am I wrong? :(

[Leper]

Ok this topic has sparked me up to say something, because I dont think you guys have the same backround as your gaming-audience.


Excuse (1) -- People just play demos and move on
Only if the games suck. If I find a game that truly entrances me I buy it. And that's rare. I've always found myself ending up buying a casual game or another after a while. Sometimes I'll play a few demos of some games and then I'll want to play a game again and go ahead and purchase it!!

Excuse (2) -- People will just go to other affiliated sites and replay the demos
Honest people won't. Stop acting like "people" are all out to screw you for one. And for two, realize that the majority of people that own PC's aren't this savvy!! I didnt even know I could do this until now! I suppose it was only a matter of time but thanks for letting out your little secret! Also, I'm sure that this doesnt ALWAYS work. Unless someone is EXTREMELY computer-smart (which probably takes up a small percentage of your market) and can modify the registry.

Excuse (3) -- People will download cracks!!!
Some will, some won't. But that's not going to stop your sales. A lot of people (like me) want to own things. Look at iTunes for crap's sake. iTunes sales are in the millions. But people can download the music for free. People aren't as evil as you might think. Also, the more people know about your game, the more people will buy!!

Excuses, excuses, excuses.
Your games are great, people WILL buy them. Dont worry! Dont give up! and dont come up with excuses like this. Your target audience is most likely not made up of computer whiz's that know how to crack games, know how to look for cracks, and like to be into piracy. Your taget audience is made up of a lot of moms and dads and kids and real working people that dont believe in THEFT!!

The only reason why people aren't buying your games is because they ARE NOT AWARE. I have stressed this in another thread. I myself, have never heard of more than 60% of the games here because they werent marketed to me, nor anyone I know, or my family. Keep that in mind sirs.

[Savant]

The only reason why people aren't buying your games is because they ARE NOT AWARE. I have stressed this in another thread. I myself, have never heard of more than 60% of the games here because they werent marketed to me, nor anyone I know, or my family. Keep that in mind sirs.
OK, then help us out. You seem to be the target market we need to reach - how do we do that? Where should we be advertising that you'd see it? How should we go about getting your attention?

And, for the record, I'm not blaming piracy. I'm blaming apathy. Tons of new games come out every week. Why buy CloneA of bejeweled when CloneB is coming out in a few days followed by CloneC next week?

[Leper]

OK, then help us out. You seem to be the target market we need to reach - how do we do that? Where should we be advertising that you'd see it? How should we go about getting your attention?

And, for the record, I'm not blaming piracy. I'm blaming apathy. Tons of new games come out every week. Why buy CloneA of bejeweled when CloneB is coming out in a few days followed by CloneC next week?

I hardly ever buy clone games.. I never bought bejewlled (my mom did) oops I did BUY bejellewed! for my phone!! haha.. but not for the PC.. Honestly I only knew about Real Arcade and that's it. it took me months to find other portals simply because I didnt even realize they existed. Yahoo is too busy, way too many crappy games on there too.

Your target market is all over the net. They are on Myspace, Friendster, they might be involved in Pro-active churches(like Vineyard church or Christian Life centers, etc, the ones where people actually do things besides worship), etc.

Another great way to increase sales would be to set up a deal with other distributors to include a Demo disc inside their game's box, or even retailers like GameStop or EBGames (or other mom and pop stores) and put up free demo CD's that people can grap at the counter(AOL does it, so can you), or even at game arcades, or even in PC GAME MAGAZINES. (coconut monkey for example)

Lobby RealARCADE.. Get your friends, family, and everyone on here to email them and complain that they want more diverse games.. That they're sick of clones. That needs to be done, because I FOR ONE, hate seeing 10 versions of the same game for sale on there. That was the REAL reason why I un-subscribed from them.

I am a business man, I do marketing and sales in real life as part of my diverse profession. If anyone wants to talk about ideas or anything just drop me a PM! I love to discuss business and marketing!! :)

[NothingLikeit]

Leper,

I think my audience is a bit different than everyone elses. I don't think soccer moms want to shoot nazis in a world war II environ. But I'm not really worried about pirates too much. Like you said most people are too lazy to steal games. I'm one of them. Theres a lot that goes into it and i'm too lazy to figure it out. As far as people replaying the demo goes. 2 things will hapen.

1) they'll get bored with the demo and just buy the game

2) they'll bget bored witht the demo and not buy the game.

I'm not too worried about them going to different affiliae sites because the demo all seem to give you the same stuff. so only a really casual player who just wants to play the game and doesnt care about advancing would do that.

I do think that the current casual games portals give out too much for free. Honestly. If I get to play free mode for an hour and get through most of the game what incentive would I have to purchase it for 20 bucks? Not much.

I agree with your point about no visibilty = 0 sales. because if no one knows about your super ultra great game, who's gonna buy it.

[Sirrus]

2) Real Arcade didn't want it. That surprised me but unfortunately I haven't figured out the lesson there yet. I will eventually.


I had my gf take a look at Dr. Germ - she usually loves indie games. Her first reaction was that she had no interest in playing it (which surprised me). I asked why and it she said she couldn't tell what those things were - I told them they were germs, but she said they weren't identifiable enough. She saw these stuffed germ dolls at a store once and loved them...they were cute representations of that. Didn't seem to feel the same about this.

Hope that offers some insight into why RealArcade didn't take it - but honestly you should ask them why. They responded when a game of mine was declined with an explanation of why.

[Leper]

Leper,

I think my audience is a bit different than everyone elses. I don't think soccer moms want to shoot nazis in a world war II environ. But I'm not really worried about pirates too much. Like you said most people are too lazy to steal games. I'm one of them. Theres a lot that goes into it and i'm too lazy to figure it out. As far as people replaying the demo goes. 2 things will hapen.

1) they'll get bored with the demo and just buy the game

2) they'll bget bored witht the demo and not buy the game.

I'm not too worried about them going to different affiliae sites because the demo all seem to give you the same stuff. so only a really casual player who just wants to play the game and doesnt care about advancing would do that.

I do think that the current casual games portals give out too much for free. Honestly. If I get to play free mode for an hour and get through most of the game what incentive would I have to purchase it for 20 bucks? Not much.

I agree with your point about no visibilty = 0 sales. because if no one knows about your super ultra great game, who's gonna buy it.


If you want to promote your game to world war enthusiests, or war game enthusiests, there are places on the net you need to go.

Its amazing how far you can go by just posting your work on a highly used forum.

I would look for gamer forums and go to WWII section and introduce your game there. Dont worry if people will flame for advertisement, because you can always say that you just thought it would be something that they liked and that might make them pause and check it out. There are just tons of game enthuisiest places to go..

Also, other ideas mentioned above would work fine.. Friend networking sites are great for promotion, passing out demo cd's etc.

[SquareDanceSteve]

1. If someone bothered to crack your game, you should feel proud.

2. If someone intends to use a crack they do not intend to ever buy your game.

The big company’s like to say how much they lost to piracy by estimating how many pirated copies exist and then multiplying that number by the price of the game.

People who download hacked games and bit torrent games are not going to buy the games anyway.

Let’s be realistic. Don’t worry about piracy.

[Leper]

1. If someone bothered to crack your game, you should feel proud.

2. If someone intends to use a crack they do not intend to ever buy your game.

The big company’s like to say how much they lost to piracy by estimating how many pirated copies exist and then multiplying that number by the price of the game.

People who download hacked games and bit torrent games are not going to buy the games anyway.

Let’s be realistic. Don’t worry about piracy.

Well said..

[Anatoly]

Well, yeah! if the game is good enough - I'll buy it! Platypus convinced me!
Other games I might consider - "Dungeon Scroll" is a nice one, but I feel that it's too pricey and that there are games with better quality for lower price, but it's so damn entertaining I might buy it soon!
Piracy will always be there - there's nothing we could do about it...

[soniCron]

If someone intends to use a crack they do not intend to ever buy your game... People who download hacked games and bit torrent games are not going to buy the games anyway. Let’s be realistic. Don’t worry about piracy. Wrong! Unless you've got some numbers to back that up (something that's damn near impossible to prove), then don't make that assessment. The only data I have to share with you is anecdotal, and that comes from knowing a lot of computer geeks who liked to bypass protection schemes. If they liked something enough to try to crack it, but they couldn't find the crack, they'd:
Try to crack it themselves, and if they couldn't...
Buy it!

Surprisingly, yes, they bought the software if they couldn't crack it! Now, I'm talking about quite a few people I've known through the years. If it was worthy of them to use it on a regular basis (or want to), and they couldn't crack it or copy it, they'd buy it.

Now, the only thing you could offer me is anecdotal evidence as well -- people you know that don't buy software at all. That's fantastic. It only proves that we're at a perpetual showdown. Neither of us can prove your statement true, or false. Because of this, let's not go around spouting things of as fact when we have no basis of proof. It's just as absurd as the game industry claiming they lose x billion dollars to piracy every year. (And how do they come to that number anyway? They know how many CD's everyone's burned? Downloaded?)

Point is: Please, everyone, stop making the judgment that they wouldn't buy it anyway! There is no grounding in fact with that argument. It's just plain ignorant!

[Andy]

Please, everyone, stop...

Yeah, Daniel! This one was even better than your attack on me personally.

So, following by this simple example we can I assume that you are only one who is right and everyone else is wrong. Is it correct?

REM: Pardon for offtopic guys - just couldn't resist. :)

The guy who doesn't buy wouldn't buy by any chance. This is follows exactly from the defenintion and the wording - "he doesn't buy"
Anything else just Daniel's romanitcs but we will fogive him as always.

Just my two cents. As always, ;)

[soniCron]

Prove me wrong.

[Nexic]

My guess would be Daniel is right to some extent. There are people who will crack, and then buy if that doesn't work out. However I think this is something that more applies to expensive applications like 3dstudio etc, where people don't mind spending a couple hours trying to crack it, as they are saving $1000s. But when its a $20 game, impluse will take over if they *really* like it.

But when it comes to game I think the number is just too insignificent to be worth thinking about. Plus you have also got to bare in mind that you literally can't stop crackers, unless its an online game.

[NothingLikeit]

I was pretty much gonna do just that. By simply posting a link on myspace/facebook i got way more uniques just by doing that.

And I work on a college campus fourtunately. So I may do some kinda demo giveaway.

[Savant]

Prove me wrong.
You're battling anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence.

Both sides have proven nothing.

[soniCron]

You're battling anecdotal evidence with anecdotal evidence.

Both sides have proven nothing. Thank you! That was my point:


It only proves that we're at a perpetual showdown. Neither of us can prove your statement true, or false. Because of this, let's not go around spouting things of as fact when we have no basis of proof. It's just as absurd as the game industry claiming they lose x billion dollars to piracy every year. (And how do they come to that number anyway? They know how many CD's everyone's burned? Downloaded?)

EDIT: Don't misread the purpose of the original post. It was not to prove that people who crack games may buy them. Rather, I wanted to prove there was no justification for claiming they won't buy them.

[Leper]

Ok Sonicron, what do you think.. throwing facts and evidence (which arent being discussed here) out the window.. What does your intuition tell you? What does common sense tell you?

[soniCron]

Because this is getting way too off-topic, I've moved it to another thread:

Would a Theif Pay? (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=4605)