IndieGamesCon is October 7th [Archive] - Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards

James C. Smith

09-01-2005, 05:10 PM

The IndieGamesCon (http://www.indiegamescon.com/) is only 5 weeks away! October 7th - 9th in Eugene Oregon. Is anyone going? Does anyone want to suggest a topic they wish someone (like me) would speek about? According to the web site they say “If you would like to nominate a speaker for IndieGamesCon 2005, send an email to events@garagegames.com” and “If you have a suggestion for a session for IndieGamesCon 2005, please contact events@garagegames.com.”

terin

09-01-2005, 05:39 PM

I may end up there James.

We physically move into our house Oct. 1st. That gives me 6 days to decide if I want to drive 30 minutes down to Euege from Corvallis...

However, it is a 3,500 mile drive to get there and Im not sure I will be totally recovered in 6 days (epsecially since it wont be 6 days of resting)

-Joe

kevryan

09-01-2005, 08:34 PM

The last couple of years I ended up buying airplane tickets the night before the conference and going. I was going to drive up with the whole family this year, but my son started play football and he has a game on that Saturday.

The Casual Gaming Roundtable is always fun. Are you going to be speaking on that one? I see Reflexive is listed on that one.

Home prices in Eugene have gone up. When we bought our home there many years ago, it was only $46,500.

James C. Smith

09-01-2005, 08:50 PM

Someone from Reflexive will be on it. I am not sure if it will be me.

Greg Squire

09-01-2005, 11:28 PM

I'll be there again this year. It was a great experience for me last year, and I'm hoping this year will be a great one too.

James, as for speaking topics. How about "Designing and Creating Games that Sell". ;) I know that's a pretty broad topic and there's a lot of subjectiveness in there, but it would be nice to hear your take on some of this. There probably some "rules of thumb" you've come up with over the years.

Joe, Good Luck with the move! That will be one exhausting trip. ;)

Cartman

09-02-2005, 08:42 AM

I'll be there. I always go. And hopefully I'll finally have my first game there.

Talks I'd like to see:

Best tools to use (not engines, more day to day free tools, and cheap tools)
Anything on Marketing
Legal Issues
Post Mortems ( and please be prepared, some of presentations last year were very much "fly by the seat of their pants" and it showed )

MrPhil

09-02-2005, 08:54 AM

I'm planning to go. It'll be my first time. I also plan to do the boot camp aftewards.

Phil Steinmeyer

09-02-2005, 09:23 AM

How heavily is this conf. likely to be focused on Torque itself the action-oriented games that seem to gravitate towards Torque? Are all the portals likely to have a presence there?

Torque itself and action games are of no interest to me, but if the conf. has a more general focus, it might be worthwhile for me.

Ciperl

09-02-2005, 09:47 AM

Well, since I'm pretty much putting together a bunch of the stuff for IndieGamesCon, I thought I'd bring people up to speed and try to answer a bunch of questions:

First, yes, we will have a Torque track that talks about everything from T2D to TSE to Scripting and even Xbox development with Torque.

BUT... we also have other tracks as well as keynotes.

Some interesting talks that I think might interest people
** Mac OS X Development by Ryan Gordon
** Machinima by Ill Clan (Paul Marino & Frank Dellario)
** How to take a game idea and put it into production
** Advanced Lighting Techniques in Games
** Animation and Sequencing
** The Indie Artist Production Cookbook
** Starting a game studio (legal issues) by Thomas Buscaglia
** So what's next? Marketing your game from the other side. (This is a roundtable discussion with different indie press talking about how to best market your game and how to use the press to your advantage.)
** The $1 billion dollar indie opportunity (Where's the money and how do indie's go after it)
** Building a game studio from the ground up (Really cool roundtable)
** Microsoft is coming in to give several pro-talks about development
** Ageis is coming to talk about the new PhysX chips
** The Casual Gaming roundtable is always a hit with some of the leading portal/publishers of indie games.

And those are just some of the tracks and talks...

Plus, we've got the famous Show-Off center with 50 killer gaming rigs hooked up in a huge lan-center for anyone who comes to the conference to install their games on and get people to play them. Saturday night is also a monster LAN party with prizes and competitions. Plus anyone who brings a game is eligible for the IGC Players Choice Award at the end of the event.

So if you've got any questions, just let me know. The final track schedule will be going up on the www.indiegamescon.com website later today.

PS... James, I'll be calling you in just a bit.

SimmerD

09-02-2005, 09:59 AM

Having never gone before, I'm not sure if I want to go or not.
I'm making an indie game, although not casual, and not with Torque. I suppose networking would be the main point. Any pointers or suggestions?

Looks like flights are ~250. Taking the overnight train is $550.

Dan MacDonald

09-02-2005, 10:54 AM

I've been going since the first IGC and I will be attending again this year. In my experience there Torque track exists because a large number of developers from the GG community demand torque sessions, but you are never forced to attend any torque sessions. There is always some other session going on that you may find useful or just plain old networking in the LAN center.

IGC has always been a highlight of my year.

JoeMaru

09-02-2005, 11:01 AM

Personally, for me, the (now yearly) round table with Dave Nixon, John Welch, and the others is a high point. Good info is always presented, as is the ability to have some time to talk to these guys at length.

Networking is some of the best too.. lots of time and space to just sit down and chat with other developers. Getting to catch up with Dan MacDonald, Phil Carlisle, and my buddy from the Netherlands Pascal Bos is fantastic.

Many of the sessions indeed lead to long 'after session' discussions of the topic with small sub groups breaking off to talk over game design, budgeting, marketing, legal issues.. etc, that can go on into the evening over beers. You can drop in on some very serious 'shop' talk with some coding experts who have been making games (both small and large) for many years.

the showoff center is really neat. You get to play games in all stages of development, meet the developers, and talk to them (and give/get direct feedback)

for me, it was great to see a TON of people playing our demo of dRacer last year. I was running arounf taking notes the whole time.

It is one of the highlights of my year, and I always feel recharged afterwords.

If anyone wants to meet me, I am usually easy to find.. short guy with a chain tattooed on his arm, outside smoking cigarettes. I would really love to be able to put faces to the names.

Greg Squire

09-23-2005, 12:07 PM

Okay, we're now only 2 weeks away. Surely there are others from this forum going. Anyone else care to chime in?

Mark Fassett

09-23-2005, 03:20 PM

I'm going mostly for the free beer. Not too many sessions I want to see - just going to have fun and hang out.

TimS

09-23-2005, 04:10 PM

Wish I had the approximately $1000 it'd end up costing to go to this... would be fun... I especially wanted to check out Pisciotta from Chronic Logic during the forming an indie studio roundtable...

Where do you crazies get the money? :D

DrWilloughby

09-23-2005, 04:56 PM

I'll be there, heckling anyone I know or have any sort of vague acquaintance to during their talks.

-Andy

Hiro_Antagonist

09-23-2005, 06:17 PM

I just learned a couple of days ago that I'll be able to attend!

I'm looking forward to meeting many of you guys that I haven't had a chance to meet yet!

-Hiro_Antagonist

James C. Smith

09-23-2005, 08:34 PM

I'll be there for sure. I am looking forward to meeting many of you in person. Be sure to introduce yourself with you IndieGamer handle when we meet.

Curiosoft

09-24-2005, 07:47 AM

Hey,

If I finish my project by then, I may attend the conference. My question is...do I have to pay the conference fee if I just want to lounge around; I do not find any of the panels interesting, but would like to meet other game devs.

Let me know,
Curiosoft

Mark Currie

09-25-2005, 08:41 PM

do I have to pay the conference fee if I just want to lounge around; I do not find any of the panels interesting, but would like to meet other game devs.

Yes you have to pay to enter the building, but food and beer is included!

I've gone every year, but I'm not sure if I can make it this year. I probably will be in Orlando doing some contract work.

James C. Smith

09-25-2005, 09:17 PM

I just want to lounge around

That is half of what the conference is all about. There is a lot of time and space dedicated to this. There are computers set up where you can play other people’s game or show off your own. You don't have to pay to be an exhibitor to do that. That is what the show is all about. Indies talking and playing games together. There are not that many formal lectures and they are only a curtain separates them from the "lounge around" section of the conference.

The admission is very reasonable and includes food and drinks. Most people will spend a lot more on travel than they will on admission.

Greg Squire

10-05-2005, 11:22 AM

Okay, just two days and counting! Hope to see you all there. Looks like some guys from Microsoft and even Chris Crawford will be there this year too. Anyone else going that hasn't chimed in?

terin

10-06-2005, 11:47 AM

Hey all,

Just letting you know you will be able to find me in the BRIGHT BLUE AND YELLOW Vgsmart Marketing shirt. I don't have anyone scheduled to talk with me so just walk up and say hello... and ye shall be spewed with marketing advice...

;-)

-Joe

Phil Steinmeyer

10-10-2005, 06:34 PM

So how was it?

Dan MacDonald

10-10-2005, 08:53 PM

A lot of fun, some really nice games this year. One of my favorites was one just past the concept stage called "Determinance", the developer had done some cool stuff with IK to make a very natural sword fighting interface. It was a third person game where you could fly around using right click. If you held the left button you could manipulate your sword arm. Moving the mouse left to right would make a slashing motion with the sword left to right. The speed of the movement was determined by the speed in which you moved your mouse. Similarly moving the mouse up and then down would raise the sword and then bring it down in a chopping motion. It wasn't limited to cardinal directions however, all possible directions and combinations between the axis were possible by moving the mouse.

The players had location based damage and depending on the hit would take different amounts of damage. It was multilayer only but I had a great time playing it. It's one of the few times in a game where you feel like you are doing something that you've not done before. For once in a sword game it wasn't based on a fixed set of moves, the moves I made where limited only by what I could come up with on the mouse. It felt like real sword fighting.

ChrisLabombard

10-11-2005, 04:15 AM

Did anyone play Basic Bob ?

Josephuk05

10-11-2005, 05:18 PM

terin

10-11-2005, 05:30 PM

I look like I am balding in that picture!

I better go fix my toupe.

I think I know when that pic was taken ;-)

-Joe

terin

10-11-2005, 05:35 PM

Ok and "how was it?"

It was great. I met a lot of people, killed a lot of people at Determinence... much like Dan.

I also got to be a guest speaker, which was interesting.

Overall, I have a stack of business cards I now need to go through and a whole lot of work potential in the near future.

The games themselves... many of them weren't too inspiring, but a few (like Determinence and Fascade) were quite cool.

So yes, I met a lot of great people, some of whom I may actually remember meeting next year. My blue and yellow shirt was a huge hit and it actually worked on people.

I'm looking forward to seeing if anyone took any pictures of me, russel, dan, and Kelly giving our combined 8 cents on marketing.

-Joe

Greg Squire

10-12-2005, 04:10 PM

Here's some blog writeups and photos from IGC 2005 for anyone that missed it. (I'm sure I've missed others). It was definiately a good experience and would recommend it to those that have never been there.

http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/29221/8909 (also see Days 1 & 2)
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/8341/8899 (pics)
http://blog.dannyngan.com/2005/10/ (lots of photos)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/indiegamescon/ (More photos)
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/1828/8902
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/8863/8889
http://www.macradio.com/shows/igameradio/index.php (iGame Radio was there but I can't find the feed)
Also I believe Russell Carroll (Game Tunnel) has a write up coming as well.

Did anyone play Basic Bob ?
Yes, I saw some people playing it.

Josephuk05

10-12-2005, 06:41 PM

I look like I am balding in that picture!

I better go fix my toupe.

I think I know when that pic was taken ;-)

-Joe

It was taken by the IGC webcam :)

terin

10-13-2005, 09:38 AM

Yes I know. I was standing in front of it for about 30 minutes before I realized I was. At the time I was discussing publishing opportunities for indie games in music CD shops worldwide. A great opportunity btw. More info as I get it.

Long story short was: Indie Games + Indie Music = Sales Potential

-Joe

PS: STILL NOT A GOOD PICTURE... but its better than the webcam!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/86997312@N00/51965356/

Plus you can see my shirt ;-)

PPS: Igames IS Macradio now. I have their business card to prove it.

James C. Smith

10-13-2005, 04:19 PM

So how was it?

It was great. There were lots of interesting people to talk to and I got to see people try to figure out how to play my game. You should have been there. We could have compared lots of notes on how to make a word game. :-)

Greg Squire

10-13-2005, 04:30 PM

More coverage of IGC 2005 (even some professional coverage)

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051013/dillon_01.shtml (Gamasutra coverage)
http://futurenet.vo.llnwd.net/o2/pcgamer/pcgp_006_20051010.mp3 (PCGamer Pocast coverage)
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/1605/8932
http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/37490/8944
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=35597 (IGC keynote video)

http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/3/8938 (Jeff Tunnell - Not really IGC coverage, but he talks about some future GG stuff)

Sillysoft

10-13-2005, 05:28 PM

2 more good write ups from IGC:
http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/10/08/live-at-the-indiegamescon/
http://grandtextauto.gatech.edu/2005/10/09/live-at-the-indiegamescon-day-2/

DrWilloughby

10-13-2005, 07:53 PM

My post-IGC thoughts on an issue that was talked about a lot at the show: the name for our industry. In my blog:

http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/44702/8948

In it, I suggest calling the games we make "microgames", which fits a whole hell of a lot better than "indie" or "casual" in terms of describing the whole industry without being creatively restricting.

GameStudioD

10-13-2005, 09:24 PM

I suggest calling the games we make "microgames", which fits a whole hell of a lot better than "indie" or "casual" in terms of describing the whole industry without being creatively restricting.

Alternative Games ?

DrWilloughby

10-13-2005, 09:34 PM

Alternative Games may be broader, but I don't think it encompasses some of the more "pop" games like Bejeweled or Luxor. When I think of alternative games, it seems to exclude the Britney Spears of the gaming world.

soniCron

10-13-2005, 10:43 PM

In it, I suggest calling the games we make "microgames", which fits a whole hell of a lot better than "indie" or "casual" in terms of describing the whole industry without being creatively restricting. Microgames is creatively restrictive -- many independent games are far from "micro." What's wrong with "indie?"

DrWilloughby

10-14-2005, 12:11 AM

The first thing I found myself doing when trying to sell my game to publishers was shedding the term "indie" for "casual", because "indie" has an implication of low-budget, low-quality, crazy, fresh, and new, which are all things that make publishers curl into a fetal position.

Indie isn't very marketable in today's climate. Casual is. Casual is winning, which kinda sucks.

Hamumu

10-14-2005, 06:59 AM

But you were trying to sell to a publisher... that's not indie! If an indie band gets picked up by a record label, they are no longer indie by definition. Indie has true meaning from decades in other industries (music mostly, but also writing, film, and art). Granted, most game indies don't fit the mold (well, the successful ones don't, but then being successful is generally not an indie trait anyway), but the mold is there and well established. Indie does it for me. I still try to get publishing deals, but it's not my prime mode of operation - I'm here to create my art and serve it direct to the public and rock their socks off, indie-style. Some of my games are casual, some are micro, some are hardcore, some are megaultramacro. But they're all indie!

Ciperl

10-14-2005, 09:08 AM

I think it was John Welsh (PlayFirst) who no longer wanted to use the term "casual" or "indie" but wanted to call those types of games "popular games". His rational was that LOTS of people were playing the quick match 3 games and puzzle games so they were popular. And the word popular also has a very positive spin on it.

DrWilloughby

10-14-2005, 10:29 AM

Popular is fine with me -- although it also seems to exclude the more niche markets.

Maybe it's best to let the terms "indie" and "casual" fight it out until they eventually split in a giant fireball and become distinctly different markets. It's too bad -- What I'd really like to do is find a way to describe the art form that we practice, rather than the business model or genre of our games.

ChrisLabombard

10-14-2005, 10:47 AM

So why not just shed both terms and just call them games ?

I dont make indie games or casual games.... I just make games.

Hamumu

10-14-2005, 12:01 PM

Definitely, if your goal is to describe your art form, casual and indie have nothing to do with it... it's "games"!

soniCron

10-14-2005, 01:34 PM

Maybe it's best to let the terms "indie" and "casual" fight it out... Why are you balling "indie" and "casual" together? Not all indie games are casual, and not all casual games are indie.

...until they eventually split in a giant fireball and become distinctly different markets. The public doesn't make that distinction. To them, they're all just games. Some are good ones, some aren't. Hardcore gamers recognize hardcore games vs. "those other ones," but they're pretty much the only ones.

It's too bad -- What I'd really like to do is find a way to describe the art form that we practice, rather than the business model or genre of our games. Your art form? You make games. You're a game designer. :)

DrWilloughby

10-14-2005, 09:53 PM

Ha! You are both absolutely right! I make games. But I also know that what I am doing is different in process and product than what I used to do in the big studio game world. Like I said in the blog piece, its the difference between a short story and a novel -- both are written by authors -- but they are different art forms in many ways. Same thing with a movie short vs a feature length movie, same thing with a little game made by 1 guy and a few contract artists as opposed to a behemoth game made by 150 people in a game factory!

DrWilloughby

10-14-2005, 10:00 PM

Why are you balling "indie" and "casual" together? Not all indie games are casual, and not all casual games are indie.

Read the blog piece ;)

I am NOT balling them together, but right now there is a big overlap on the developer side. At IGC, I actually heard very little talk about indie games, though. All the talk was about casual games. What does this mean?

Indie gamers are the great hope of the game industry -- they can bring innovative new concepts to the table at low cost. But as indie devs /pubs/dists start to see more financial success, that innovation may go away just like it did in the big console world because publishers get fixated on a few formulas. Once they get fixated, costs go up, indies get forced out because they can't compete with team size or marketing muscle, and then we are right back to where we started.

And so a name that stays away from the limitations of "casual" that promotes innovation without being publisher-averse like "indie" would be a good thing. Perhaps that's too big a rock to move, but it's worth trying ;)

soniCron

10-14-2005, 10:54 PM

And so a name that stays away from the limitations of "casual" that promotes innovation without being publisher-averse like "indie" would be a good thing. Are publishers sensitive to "indie?" And how do they view studios like Oddworld Inhabitants or Q Entertainment, both independent developers. Perhaps what you're looking for is right in front of your face -- something simple, like a distinction between "indie" and "independent." Of course, they both mean the same thing, literally. But perhaps "indie" could refer to the hobbyist game developer, while "independent" would fit the more serious, and often more successful, developers.

DrWilloughby

10-15-2005, 01:31 AM

That's actually a great point. I don't see the problems with the term "independent" that I do with "indie".

I'm scared though. Curling up in a corner, drunk and crying scared. Scared because my friend just emailed me and told me he had just shipped his first game as a "casual" game developer.

Wait a second, shouldn't he mean "indie"? Well, no his game IS a casual game. But the fact that so many people (including the IGDA) confuse "indie" for "casual" means he made the mistake of diving into a pool that's pretty crowded rather than picking a niche he could dominate. And while the game is cute, it probably won't compete with other games in the space.

If this confusion continues to ossify, non-casual indie games won't be given as much incentive to grow, which is kinda sad.

(I'm sure there's something in this post that will be fun to pick apart, it's freakin late. Have at ye!)

(By the way, you guys see my puff piece in BusinessWeek? ;) It got slashdotted.)

soniCron

10-15-2005, 01:41 AM

It is kind of embarrassing that the gaming industry isn't thoroughly capable of effectively administering its own terminology:
Confusing "indie" with "casual."
Complete bastardization of genres. (Bejeweled is...a puzzle game? Think about this...)
"A," and "AAA" instead of "B," and "A." (What? We really had to use sports as a grading reference, instead of the more adequately suited entertainment industry grading, ala film? And where's the "AA?" At least get it right.)

I could go on...

(By the way, you guys see my puff piece in BusinessWeek? ;) It got slashdotted.) Yes. I saw it the day before yesterday. Congratulations! :)

Chris Evans

10-15-2005, 02:55 AM

(By the way, you guys see my puff piece in BusinessWeek? ;) It got slashdotted.)

Yep! Congrats! :)

However reading this topic clarifies that article a little bit more for me. Initially I was surprised to see your game in a "Casual Games are the Next Big Thing" article. :) I don't really see Wildlife Tycoon as your typical casual match-3 game or other derivative puzzle clone. In fact, I think Wildlife Tycoon is a perfect example of a good non-casual Indie game that we need more of. So that's why I thought it was funny to read in the article it being lumped in with other "typical" casual games. :) But now I understand how that happened. I didn't realize "Indie" was becoming a bad word with publishers. But I suppose it makes sense. Casual games have been getting a lot of hype over the past year and a lot of companies feel the need to rush to stake their claim.

Personally, when I talk to companies, I say I make Independent games (not "Indie" games). It basically gives them the idea that we're not "hired-hands" to make games for big companies and that we actually sell our own software. The word "Independent" also doesn't limit or define the type of games we make. It can be anything, so I'm not pinned into a particular corner like if I were to say "Casual" game developer. So using the term "Independent game" developer has worked for me. However, I haven't got any huge retail deals, so what do I know. :p

Hamumu

10-15-2005, 07:04 AM

Like I said in the blog piece, its the difference between a short story and a novel -- both are written by authors -- but they are different art forms in many ways. Same thing with a movie short vs a feature length movie, same thing with a little game made by 1 guy and a few contract artists as opposed to a behemoth game made by 150 people in a game factory!

You're right that a short story and novel are different as a short film and a feature are. However, what does that have to do with the number of people and money spent developing it? My game Supreme with Cheese is a BIGGER game, contentwise and hours of play, than virtually any non-indie game. It's definitely indie though. Other indie games are big - Spiderweb RPGs for example. Indie shooters aren't big, but neither are commercial shooters - shooters are a genre of short games. And yes, lots of indie games are small, like all the casual ones, and lately I've been discovering a disturbing trend (now that I get free full versions)... indie games are often overly short!

But regardless, the distinction of size has nothing to do with who made it. It's a different artform, you could make that argument (not nearly as different as it is in film and writing though). But it's certainly not the divider between indie and not! Just as indie filmmakers make both shorts and features, and indie authors make both short stories and novels (and poems, and novellas...), an indie developer can make both small and big games. After all, we're not tied to any release schedule or standard of quality that limits that. Big n' crappy, that's my motto.

DrWilloughby

10-15-2005, 08:37 AM

HA! I'll make sure that when I send my game to GameTunnel I double the amount of levels with crappy content just to assuage the dreaded MH!

I suppose as long as a thriving community is still committed to innovation and a wide variety of games, the word "casual" isn't in danger of taking over the indpendent world entirely. I'll cross my fingers that this remains true and non-casual games remain viable.

impossible

10-16-2005, 06:59 PM

Complete bastardization of genres. (Bejeweled is...a puzzle game? Think about this...)
Eh, what is Bejeweled then? I think most people would call it (and all match 3 games) a puzzle game.

Jim Buck

10-16-2005, 07:41 PM

A puzzle game would be something like Dweep or Aargon. There are actually puzzles to solve. Matching 3 items and having them disappear ad infinitum isn't a "puzzle" in the literal sense of the word. Hence, the fact that the word "puzzle" has been bastardized when used in this industry.

Phil Steinmeyer

10-16-2005, 07:54 PM

DrWilloughby

10-16-2005, 07:58 PM

Non-issue. Look at the terminology used in all these posts. Match-3 is breaking away as its own genre. It's a clean birth. :)

soniCron

10-16-2005, 09:32 PM

Under that logic, then Tetris is not a puzzle either. And yet pretty much every gamer considers it to be the defining game for the Puzzle genre, so in practice, 'Puzzle' is a very apt description of Bejeweled and other match-3s I'm not so sure I agree. Tetris has a much deeper strategic level than match-3s. The sheer volume of tiles in match-3s makes it almost impossible to employ any critical problem solving beyond maybe a turn or two. Combine that with severely limited movement options per turn, and you've got not much more than..."match three." Tetris, on the other hand, can sustain a certain level of strategy with the player able to think ahead several turns in advance to maximize his potential outcome.