Mouse only controls for casual games?

[James C. Smith]

Mouse only controls for casual games?

This is in response to a question about making a casual platform game (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=4269 ) but I though I would spin it off into a whole separate topic. I am sure isn’t the first time we discussed this topic, but I see a lot of people confused and frustrated by the “mouse only” controls idea and some people go overboard cramming all kind of strange things into mouse controls to satisfy a goal they don’t understand.

Talking about primary input device... do you think a jumpman on steroids which would require keyboard usage (says arrow keys (move), space (jump) ctrl(pick/release)) could be well accepted, or should I go for mouse only input ?

Right now, I can think about a (near-)mouse-only startegy (poll for left/right relative moves, click to jump, right click to pick/release) but I'm not sure if it would work well... anyone has ever tried this approach compared to keyboard ?

Thank you all for the valuable input so far.

Lilian

I am not sure I am correctly interpreting your “left/right relative moves” statement but I am guessing that there would be no mouse cursor and you would make the character walk at a constant rate to the left when the mouse is moved to the left. But I could be wrong and all of the fallowing would be irrelevant.

I think the main reason people talk about using mouse only controls for casual games is to make the controls as intuitive as possible. That is the real goal. Make the controls simple and intuitive. It is possible to completely miss that goal and still use the mouse only. Whenever possible you should use a mouse cursor. Usually casual games have a cursor and the player clicks on objects to interact with them. The main exception would be if the player avatar is the mouse cursor. In games like Platapus, Feeding Frenzy, and any breakout game, the player character moves nearly in sync with the mouse and there is no need for a cursor. I can’t image you accomplishing this with “left/right relative moves” in a platform game with a walking and jumping character. It seems like the character would be connected to the mouse only very loosely and it may not be that intuitive at all. You may want to consider showing a mouse cursor and having the character walk towards it or maybe even walk to the point of a click.

Either that, or just make the bold move to use the keyboard! My point is, use whatever controls and simple and intuitive. Forcing yourself to use the mouse does not necessarily result is intuitive controls.

Here are the options as I see them for casual games in order of preference from best to worst
Intuitive mouse controls (best options)
Intuitive keyboard controls (not a bad options but will take extra pop-up message to make sure the player knows to press the keys
Nonstandard use of the mouse. Control that seem forced into a mouse system (bad option)
Using the mouse and keyboard at the same time (such as run with keys and shoot with mouse. This words great for Crimsonland but is not very accusable to the casual player)
Complicated keyboard controls with many keys to remember (good for a some types of hard core game but bad for a casual game)

Good keyboard controls are better than bad mouse controls even for a casual game. Don’t make bad controls just to satisfy the “mouse only” design goal of casual games.

[Hamumu]

PLEASE if your game plays with keyboard, let the menus work with keyboard too. And more importantly, make dialogs that pop up during play alos work with keyboard! I hate it when games make me keep swapping.

[clilian]

Well, I have uploaded a small test (www.vlsolutions.com/free/jumpman/index.php) (Java 1.5 applet) illustrating mouse input...

I'm not impressed by the results... but may be someone could comment on enhancing this. I'm open to all suggestions.

Lilian

edited : changed the link to allow more tests

[soniCron]

I'm not impressed by the results... but may be someone could comment on enhancing this. I'm open to all suggestions. Actually, I'm surprised how well it works. Unfortunately, you could never have a windowed or browser version of the game, but for fullscreen, it's a good start. Of course, I'm not interacting with anything, so my opinion (and everyone elses') will be heavily biased.

[clilian]

Actually, I'm surprised how well it works. Unfortunately, you could never have a windowed or browser version of the game, but for fullscreen, it's a good start. Of course, I'm not interacting with anything, so my opinion (and everyone elses') will be heavily biased.


Well, I still can grab the mouse and force it to stay in the center of the applet (but that would require a signed/trusted applet). Or create a "really big applet" and ask politely for a maximized browser window.

Lilian

[Ricardo C]

How about having a free floating cursor that only controls the character when within a certain distance? Say you click the player to "grab" the character, then if you move it x amount of pixels ahead, the character will walk. Further out, it will jog, still further out, it will run up to its predetermined limit. Jumping could be activated with a mouse click, while the direction and of the jump would still be controlled by the mouse movement.

[Bmc]

look at the snowy games from alawar or iggle pop from sprout

imo if the mouse input is done right it's much more fun and immersive then keyboard controls could ever be.

[Martoon]

PLEASE if your game plays with keyboard, let the menus work with keyboard too. And more importantly, make dialogs that pop up during play alos work with keyboard! I hate it when games make me keep swapping.
Amen to that! That is a pet peeve of mine in so many games. It seems to especially plague a lot of otherwise very cool Flash games. They make you take your hand off the keyboard to proceed to the next level, dismiss dialogs, or start a new game.

[svero]

I would say that if you use keyboard, no matter how simple and intuitive you make the keyboard controls, you will end up cutting out a certain percentage of the buying population. Some people just wont play any games that use keyboard controls. For them it's an immediate quit and move on to the next demo. I've seen this with various customers and players. Im not really sure how big that population is though but Im quite sure there's some truth to the notion that a game "must" use mouse controls. (in the sense that yes you are cutting out some of your potential as soon as you make the decision to use keys... I just dont know how much.. it may be a very small population in the end.)

I think you'd be worse off trying to force mouse control only into a game that just isn't designed for it though. Pacman with mouse only doesnt strike me as a very good design. Mouse only pacman would probably sell worse than keyboard pacman.

[Mike Boeh]

look at the snowy games from alawar or iggle pop from sprout

imo if the mouse input is done right it's much more fun and immersive then keyboard controls could ever be.

To me, Iggle Pop is a perfect example of forcing mouse control in a keyboard game. IMO it really detracts from an otherwise excellent game. A game I made, Best Friends, is another example. I may have been better making it keyboard only...

[Bmc]

To me, Iggle Pop is a perfect example of forcing mouse control in a keyboard game. IMO it really detracts from an otherwise excellent game. A game I made, Best Friends, is another example. I may have been better making it keyboard only...

dunno about that. I think best friends was fine with mouse control, same with Hamsterball.

[soniCron]

dunno about that. I think best friends was fine with mouse control, same with Hamsterball. Hamsterball was way better with the mouse. (Actually, it was best with both the mouse and the keyboard.) Of course, Hamsterball is a very physical game, so the natural analog control of a mouse felt much better and offered much finer control than keys ever could.

[Mike Boeh]

Turtle Odyssey is #3 at Real this week... And it's keyboard-only :-)

[clilian]

I've update the applet with some platforms to jump on !

Ricardo, I'll try your suggestion asap.

I'll also try the other games to see how they manage mouse interaction...

Any feedback on the applet is still welcome (now there's something to do with it :) ).

the applet (www.vlsolutions.com/free/jumpman/index.php)


Lilian

(edited : typo)

[Bmc]

the controls demonstrated in that applet aren't very good. Go and play Wik, and also any Snowy game. Wik, to see how a player could jump on a platform, and Snowy to see how it to make em walk... basically you get a vector from the characters locations, depending on the distance and angle you character could walk, jump, run etc.

mouse control will limit you but limits drive you to be more creative

[Rory]

thanks for the applet lilian. Although try as a i might, i couldn't make it onto the highest platforms. :)

But i think it does show that the mouse is a decent controller for platformers. The movement of your character / rectangle feels a lot more fluid when using the mouse to control it as opposed to using the arrow keys. With this in mind, the combination of digital controls and the traditional flat, horizontal platforms as seen in Mario games may not be completely suitable to a mouse based approach.

...

Rory

[HappyCat]

I actually thought Cillian's example nearly worked great. Only things that bugged me was the way the mouse froze when you clicked to jump, and the mouse occasionally jumped around seemingly at random when I was jumping (edit: of course these might actually be the same problem). If the mouse was free to move (left and right) at all times I think it'd work quite well.

Wik works well because of the tounge idea - it's not really something you could transfer to any other concept.

[clilian]

I actually thought Cillian's example nearly worked great. Only things that bugged me was the way the mouse froze when you clicked to jump, and the mouse occasionally jumped around seemingly at random when I was jumping (edit: of course these might actually be the same problem). If the mouse was free to move (left and right) at all times I think it'd work quite well.


Should work now, I wasn't using the full set of mouse events.

Lilian

[HappyCat]

I think that works really well. I'd happily play a game like that :)

[sparkyboy]

To me, Iggle Pop is a perfect example of forcing mouse control in a keyboard game. IMO it really detracts from an otherwise excellent game. A game I made, Best Friends, is another example. I may have been better making it keyboard only...

That is exactly how I felt about Iggle Pop. Having to use the bleedin' mouse when I was ITCHING to use the keyboard!
Even if you provide the option within your game to use keyboard or mouse, seems evident to me, for the casual player anyhow, to be TOO MUCH INFORMATION!!!!!!

To my mind, it's gonna take someone like POPCAP to show these players that the mouse is not the BE ALL AND END ALL!!!


All the best


Mark.

[Anthony Flack]

I recently added mouse support to my game, that works very similar to how it works in Best Friends. Of course, it's not the ideal use of the mouse. But I was thinking "well, why not?" - the game gives you a very clear choice to use mouse or keys (as does BF for that matter), and it might help some people out.

Certainly, my wife could "sort-of" play the game once I added the mouse controls, but couldn't work the keys at all. And lots of other people I observed trying to play with keys would do crazy stuff like be running left, and then when they wanted to run the other way, they would look down and move their finger from the left cursor key to the right cursor key. Obviously you aren't going to get very far if you have to look at the keyboard every time you switch keys.

And actually, since adding mouse control, I've been using it myself. It's not as precise, but it's nice and lazy - you only need one hand.

Of course, of course, a mouse-only game with a mouse pointer is the most intuitive and accessible option. But it's also only appropriate for certain sorts of games - and it's totally inappropriate for lots of really cool sorts of games which I would love to see more of. So I don't think it's a matter of "missing the point" of mouse control - the real question is, whether it really is true that using the mouse as a sort of poor-man's analogue stick really is less intuitive and accessible than using the keyboard - and whether having both options is worse than just sticking to one.

Would Best Friends really have worked better with just the keyboard? I have my doubts - it requires 8-directional movement, which is the trickiest sort for people to get to grips with. I suspect that if Mike had've done things over, knowing what he knows now, he wouldn't have made the game keyboard only - I think he wouldn't have made the game at all. He would have made a mouse-pointer game instead.

And that, quite frankly, sucks. I much prefer games where you control the character, not a pointer.

[Anthony Flack]

Oh, Mike has just alerted me to the fact that the #3 game on Realarcade is a platformer at the moment. And it's keyboard only.

People seem to be liking it okay - it's worth noting that the controls are very simple indeed; I played through the first seven thousand levels (well, it seemed like it) using only left, right and up. Later on, you use down as well. It's also a very, very easy game, so dying isn't much of an issue.

All in all, a positive sign I suppose. Although it doesn't exactly reassure me that my game (with fairly complex controls by these standards I'm afraid) will go down well with "the masses".

[Mike Boeh]

Would Best Friends really have worked better with just the keyboard? I have my doubts - it requires 8-directional movement, which is the trickiest sort for people to get to grips with. I suspect that if Mike had've done things over, knowing what he knows now, he wouldn't have made the game keyboard only - I think he wouldn't have made the game at all. He would have made a mouse-pointer game instead.

That's a tough question. The game has been a financial success, despite a poor conversion ratio compared to games like Cosmo Bots. It also is a perfect game for kids, and it seems most of its sales are parents buying it for kids. Also, the Sponge Bob reskin of the game is still the featured game at nickarcade.com. So I guess I would make it againm but there was some luck there for sure in that it was able to find an audience outside of the traditional 40-year-old female.

But I still like keyboard/joystick for it much better than faking it with a mouse pointer. And man did I try every which way possible to make the controls better- I spent weeks! At one point, it worked just like hamsterball, but people kept running out of mousepad. You would be amazed that people refuse to pick up their mouse and move it back to the center of the pad :(

I have a half-done donkeykong'ish platformer based on the Best Friends code, and I have dropped and picked up the project a few times, mainly because I fear it won't sell...

[Martoon]

I have a half-done donkeykong'ish platformer based on the Best Friends code, and I have dropped and picked up the project a few times, mainly because I fear it won't sell...
Would that be the one featuring a dog?

[Mike Boeh]

Would that be the one featuring a dog?

Yup... I have one more idea I want to try before I give up on the project... Just have to find the time to implement it :)

[James C. Smith]

Mouse only pacman would probably sell worse than keyboard pacman.

That's what I am talking about! Good mouse controls is the goal. But force keyboard controls into a mouse is worse than using the keyboard. Good mouse controls are the best solution, but keyboard controls are still a better solution than some forms of mouse controls.

If I had to make a PacMan clone, and I was trying to make it sell well on RealAracde, I would NOT use mouse controls. The kayboard is a better fit for that game. Then again, I wouldn’t make a Pac Man clone if I had a choice because the core play mechanic does not lend itself to intuitive mouse controls.

[James C. Smith]

Turtle Odyssey is #3 at Real this week... And it's keyboard-only :-)

I am not at all surprised to hear that a keyboard only game made the top 10 on Real. I think there is a lot of truth to the notion that games target at the causal audience do better if they have mouse controls. But this has been blown way out of proportion by some people in the past. That is why I stated this topic. Not to talk about specific control for a platform game, but to try to dispel this myth that all implementations of keyboard controls are inferior to all implementations of mouse controls. And to dispel the myth that you can take an existing game, and adapt it to use the mouse, and you will end up with a better selling game because of the adoption of the controls. The top selling mouse only games were designed to be played with a mouse, not adapted to mouse controls after he fact. Sometimes adapting a joystick or keyboard game to mouse can go well. But often times it makes a worse game rather than a better one. I am glad someone finally proved a good keyboard game can do well.

[sparkyboy]

Just downloaded and played Turtle Odyssey! :)
Nice to see simple keyboard controls working (plus joystick). The game for me was way too simplistic though, but that's just me!!

The other thing I noticed is that the game requires DIRECTX 8.0 or higher, which is a big plus in my book. That's probably due to the fact that most people probably have XP as compared to other OS's, but I could be wrong.


All the best


Mark.

[soniCron]

Really odd that Realore (makers of "Turtle Odyssey") use an up arrow for their download button... http://www.realore.com/images/download_en.gif

[Bmc]

they're all about turning conventions on their eye lol

that is very strange.

[Martoon]

Really odd that Realore (makers of "Turtle Odyssey") use an up arrow for their download button... http://www.realore.com/images/download_en.gif
Guess they're a little egocentric. I mean, from their perspective, it's an upload, right?

[Anthony Flack]

If I had to make a PacMan clone, and I was trying to make it sell well on RealAracde, I would NOT use mouse controls. The kayboard is a better fit for that game. Then again, I wouldn’t make a Pac Man clone if I had a choice because the core play mechanic does not lend itself to intuitive mouse controls.


Well this is what I'm getting at here. First, you would decide to make the Pac Man game keyboard only. Then, immediately after that decision, you would decide not to make it at all, and make a mouse pointer game instead. That is the logical conclusion of this line of thinking. It's a real lose-out situation.

These mouse pointer games make good money I'm sure. But I am so bored of mouse pointer games, I don't want to see any more right now. It's getting to the point where I'm starting to forget why I ever liked videogames in the first place. Not good. I am really, really hoping to see more games where you directly control your avatar.

The real question is, whether "keyboard controls are still a better solution than some forms of mouse control" is actually true or not. Because making good mouse controls the goal is killing games for me. I really would like to find out the best way to make other sorts of games work.

My mouse control option is a little different from BF - you don't have to keep slowly moving the mouse further and further to keep going. And it's mostly digitial... and there are some other exceptions... well, it's kind of hard to explain. But I think it sort of works. I should put out another demo soon and see what you think. Of course it's a compromise. But it's not a compromise made for no reason.

[Mike Boeh]

My mouse control option is a little different from BF - you don't have to keep slowly moving the mouse further and further to keep going. And it's mostly digitial... and there are some other exceptions... well, it's kind of hard to explain. But I think it sort of works. I should put out another demo soon and see what you think. Of course it's a compromise. But it's not a compromise made for no reason.

Maybe you're thinking of Hamsterball, because you don't have to keep moving the pointer in Best Friends. You can "peg" the little arrow.

[simonh]

The problem with adding mouse control that 'sort of works' is that it may crate an initial bad impression that your game is unable to recover from.

People are most likely to use the mouse first, and if they don't like how the controls feel straight away, they may not be inclined to start experimenting with the keyboard.

I had similar problems with Super Gerball. Personally I find the mouse control to be absolutely fine. But others find the keyboard easier to use, and sometimes I start questioning whether it is worth keeping the mouse control or not.

In the case of Cletus, I personally would like to see you keep it as a keyboard/joypad only game. It is clearly not a mouse game, and adding something that 'sort of works' may end up working against your game in the long-run.

[Anthony Flack]

Maybe you're thinking of Hamsterball, because you don't have to keep moving the pointer in Best Friends. You can "peg" the little arrow.


When I was playing, it seemed like the arrow would gradually return to the centre if you kept the mouse still, so it required you to keep it moving ever so slightly. I thought that was part of your cunning design. Did I imagine it?

Mine is digital, you peg it at the full extention of the circle and it is "on". The arrow becomes 100% opaque and your little guy is away. Back off a little bit and the arrow becomes 50% opaque and you stop moving. Also, certain actions (like shooting, which makes you stop temporarily) cause the mouse to back off slightly from full extention, so you need to give it a little flick to get going again. Also, things like turning around on the spot don't require full extention of the mouse, and a few other exceptions like that.

In the case of Cletus, I personally would like to see you keep it as a keyboard/joypad only game. It is clearly not a mouse game, and adding something that 'sort of works' may end up working against your game in the long-run.

Well I think it's going to be a case of wait and see what you think next time I beta it. It might be better than you think it is - and my observations of people using the keyboard is that that is also a solution that only "sort of works" for a lot of people. And I can't go around handing out gamepads to everyone, much as I'd like to. So, we find ourselves in this awkward situation.

Will having mouse support spoil the game for people who should have been using the keyboard but don't? I don't know, but I think it really depends how it's handled. There must be an optimal solution, but it needs testing. I think this is an area where the research has been weak.

[Mike Boeh]

When I was playing, it seemed like the arrow would gradually return to the centre if you kept the mouse still, so it required you to keep it moving ever so slightly. I thought that was part of your cunning design. Did I imagine it?

Yes you imagined it. Mine works much like yours, when the arrow is fully extended, it sticks and is fully opaque :)

[Anthony Flack]

Damn, I must be losing my mind then.

But still, I wonder how much room for experimentation there is in using the mouse in these sorts of ways. The little implementation details could make a big difference.

[Robert Cummings]

I prefer mouse control a lot of the time. It allows me to pick my nose and chill out.

Keyboard control will always be hardcore, including joystick control.

[James C. Smith]

The problem with adding mouse control that 'sort of works' is that it may crate an initial bad impression that your game is unable to recover from.


This is a very important point. Adding optional mouse controls to a keyboard game will likely mean that most users will never try the keyboard. If these optional mouse controls are not as good as the keyboard controls then you would be better off not having them at all. Giving the player the choice between mouse and keyboard is not the ultimate solution because they will likely not understand they had a choice. And it is always dangerous for you (the game creator) to be play balancing your game using one input device and allow the players to use a different input device. Taking it to another extreme, the worse thing you could do is use a joystick or game pad to play test your own game. You will likely end up tuning the difficulty and balancing of the game to be great for gamepad players and not so great for keyboard or mouse players. This would be fine if most players were going to use gamepads. But that is not realistic unless you are making a console game or a game bundled with a gamepad.

[Anthony Flack]

And therein lies the problem, of course. People don't have gamepads any more, damn them. The vicious cycle of games not using them, and people not having them... I'm not sure where it all went wrong, but if it wasn't for the fact that the only open game development platform we have left no longer has game devices attached to it, we wouldn't need to be talking about alternatives.

Adding optional mouse controls to a keyboard game will likely mean that most users will never try the keyboard. If these optional mouse controls are not as good as the keyboard controls then you would be better off not having them at all. Giving the player the choice between mouse and keyboard is not the ultimate solution because they will likely not understand they had a choice.

The thing is though, that "not as good as the keyboard" is subjective, too. The reason I added mouse control was because I observed a fair few non-gamers (who didn't usually play games, but wanted to play mine) having a terrible time struggling to use the keyboard. And I don't know this for sure, but I have a suspicion that the people who wouldn't understand the choice would mostly be the ones who would have had a hard time with the keyboard anyway. Hardcore game players, who would be the natural keyboard users, should hopefully understand the choice. But, we'll see, eh?

I think so much of this area is just guesswork at the moment. Because, with all the fine-tuning and refinement of the classic casual game (and the blueprint is pretty well established now), all the research in this area has concluded with "make a mouse pointer game" and left it at that. And while that is undoubtedly the most accessible and intuitive input device for a casual user, it's also a very restrictive choice for the future of PC games. I love direct avatar control, and I think it gives the game an extra kick if you're directly in charge of your little guy. Not having mouse-pointer controls is certainly points off for accessibility - but direct avatar control may be points on for appeal. Perhaps it will never have the same popularity as mouse-pointer games. But do think it's important that these games continue to be made (I was looking forward to Hero, dammit), and that we figure out the best strategies to go about it - so that at least they can hopefully be profitable, even if they don't become #1.

Is it better just to bite the bullet and go with keyboard only? I don't know. Is mouse control really more of a compromise than using a keyboard if you're not good at using a keyboard? I don't know. Will the choice confuse peole? I don't know. Right now, we're just guessing. I'd like to hear more about the Best Friends experience though - were people confused by that? (The choice is made very plain, about as plain as could possibly be). And were most fans of the game keyboard users or did some appreciate the mouse control? How much of it is down to the game itself (I found BF to be a bit tricky to play with the mouse myself - but on the other hand, I know doing 8-way movement on the cursor keys is basically an impossible ask for many people).

* * * * *

Now, as far as gameplay tuning goes, that is of course where extra complications arise. I use all the different devices when testing, but gamepad and keyboard are pretty much the same thing to me anyway. I will default to the keyboard, but I'm used to using it like a gamepad. I'm probably too good at using the keyboard (judging by other people's performances).

The mouse, though, is a little bit different. I've been playing with the mouse ever since I added it (maybe I'm using it too much - don't want to get too good at it). But the mouse does tend to lend itself to certain things better than others. Running around and blasting things is fine; tricky jumping platformy antics are a bit harder to pull off. This may end up having an influence on the gameplay - I'll probably make sure the running and blasting stays in the foreground, with some of the trickier manouvres being used more for extras and secrets. We'll see. I also have a lot of leeway between people playing on "Easy" and people playing on "Hard". It might be that it's too hectic to play "Hard" with the mouse. It may be a good idea to get a gamepad for that even, if you're not so good with the keyboard. But a mouse user probably shouldn't be playing on "Hard" anyway.

[Mike Boeh]

Here is the platformer i was/am working on, it has mouse controls, but I am not too keen on them... Hero The Dog (http://www.retro64.com/bf2222/hero323.zip)

They are okay, but it still (well, to me anyway) feels like it was shoehorned...

[svero]

This is a very important point. Adding optional mouse controls to a keyboard game will likely mean that most users will never try the keyboard. If these optional mouse controls are not as good as the keyboard controls then you would be better off not having them at all.

This reminds me of another design conundrum thats slightly off topic, but Ill mention it because it does follow naturally from this comment. I find the same is true of skill levels. I think one of the pitfalls of offering easy/medium/hard to the player is that they may initially pick a skill that isn't fun for them. But then you're of course faced with the fact that different players do in fact have different levels of ability. In Beetle Bomp we dont offer any skill levels except hidden as a feature on the player dialog. However, if you start losing badly the game will popup a message asking you if you want to change to an easier skill level. I think thats a pretty good solution for a game with 2 skill levels because you funnel everyone into the tweaked ideal game (from your own design perspective) and then still give people a chance to switch if its beyond them. (assuming they dont quit really early on but the slight increase in difficulty in the levels mitigates that as the earliest are essentially into levels)

I wonder if a similar thing could work with mouse controls. Maybe play some little tutorial keyboard control thing and if the player is having trouble getting through it then popup an option to let them use the mouse instread. Im not sure how it would work exactly, and mouse may often just be a preference thing, but .. something to think about anyway. I know my ex girlfriend would never play any keyboard games simply because she found using the keys really difficult. So in her case this sort of solution might have worked.

[James C. Smith]

svero: You are right that this is similar to LOD in many ways. But at least most level of difficulty situations involve the user making a choice. I don’t see that decision point happening for the input device. In the situation I am reefing to, the user never knew he had a choice.

[James C. Smith]

I'd like to hear more about the Best Friends experience though - were people confused by that? (The choice is made very plain, about as plain as could possibly be).

Actually, I think the “choice” in Best Friends is not plain at all. By that, I mean most users will have no idea they have a choice. Yes, it is very easy to the switch between mouse and keyboard. It is as simple as it could be. But the user is never presented with a choice. I just downloaded it again and played it to me sure. After downloading and installing the demo I was playing within seconds. Since I used the mouse to launch the game I was playing it with the mouse. It seemed like I was supposed to use the mouse. It worked. Why would I go search for keyboard controls? Since I was never forced to select keyboard or mouse, and the mouse was working, I just used the mouse.

There is nothing wrong with this if you think the mouse controls are good. But if you think the keyboard controls are better, and the mouse is just an option for those who refuse to use the keyboard, then you need to make it more clear that the keyboard is a possibility. I would suggest popping up a dialog box at the start of the game with separate buttons for “Keyboard” and “Mouse”. Force the user to make a conscious decision. Or at least force them to be aware that they can switch controls later if they want.

I stand by my statement that “Adding optional mouse controls to a keyboard game will likely mean that most users will never try the keyboard.” However, I think it is possible to improve the situation a lot if you forced the player to make a conscious decision. Best Friends does not do that. I believe it does exactly what I was afraid of. Ite encourages the player to play with the mouse without ever exploring the keyboard possibility.

I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing. If the mouse controls are the preferred input for the design of the game then this is fine. Best Friends is probably fine the way it is. I am just making the point that if you think the game is better played with the keyboard, then adding a mouse option could hurt you more than it helps if it is done wrong. Adding “optional” mouse controls could mean the most player will never use the keyboard controls.

[Anthony Flack]

Perhaps BF has changed, because in the one I have here (v1.01), after you start, you get three enormous pictures on-screen - a joystick, a mouse, and a cursor-keys-and-spacebar. And you have to click on one of them. I don't know if Mike took that out later, but if he did that's kind of interesting too (Mike?)

I've put in something similar, with 3 really big buttons and pictures of mouse, keyboard and gamepad. And also a little bit of guiding text describing the different options (mouse for novice, keyboard for experienced gamers, gamepad: if you have one, use it!) - wording will probably change, and the details of how the interface and menus fit together is being hammered out at the moment... but that's the general idea I'm working with.

[James C. Smith]

That sounds great.

I wonder why Mike changed Best Friends or if I am just crazy.

[Bmc]

That sounds great.

I wonder why Mike changed Best Friends or if I am just crazy.

i've downloaded and played it recently and don't recall being told I have a choice either.

[Rainer Deyke]

It sounds horrible to me, having to use my mouse to click on a button just to get to play the game with a keyboard.

[James C. Smith]

Give me a break. What make syou think you can't navagate the menu buttons with the kayboard? Just press enter and you are playing with the keyboard.

[Mike Boeh]

I did change it, quite early on. The screen to pick controls wasn't necessary... Sorry for the confusion :)

[Drake]

The screen to pick controls wasn't necessary...
I know I'm just a new guy here :D , but... I have to say I'm with James on this. An option as important as "what device will I play the game with" needs to be put in the player's face, especially if you're hoping to attract a wide audience (i.e. casual + hardcore). It's just one extra click/keypress, and it could be the difference between them enjoying your game or not.

The screen Anthony described seeing in an older version of your game sounds exactly like the one I have in my (upcoming) game - big pictures, very obvious, very painless prerequisite to starting the game. I show this screen every time the player starts or continues a game, unless they dig into the input options to set a preferred controller.

[Mike Boeh]

I know I'm just a new guy here :D , but... I have to say I'm with James on this. An option as important as "what device will I play the game with" needs to be put in the player's face, especially if you're hoping to attract a wide audience (i.e. casual + hardcore). It's just one extra click/keypress, and it could be the difference between them enjoying your game or not.

The screen Anthony described seeing in an older version of your game sounds exactly like the one I have in my (upcoming) game - big pictures, very obvious, very painless prerequisite to starting the game. I show this screen every time the player starts or continues a game, unless they dig into the input options to set a preferred controller.

Actually james was agreeing with me. All the control options work all the time. If you move the mouse, the character moves. If you press an arrow key, the character moves. If you tap your gamepad, he moves.

[Drake]

All the control options work all the time. If you move the mouse, the character moves. If you press an arrow key, the character moves. If you tap your gamepad, he moves.Actually, I think the “choice” in Best Friends is not plain at all. By that, I mean most users will have no idea they have a choice. Yes, it is very easy to the switch between mouse and keyboard. It is as simple as it could be. But the user is never presented with a choice. I just downloaded it again and played it to me sure. After downloading and installing the demo I was playing within seconds. Since I used the mouse to launch the game I was playing it with the mouse. It seemed like I was supposed to use the mouse. It worked. Why would I go search for keyboard controls? Since I was never forced to select keyboard or mouse, and the mouse was working, I just used the mouse. Sorry, am I really confused? :confused: That doesn't sound like agreement to me. I thought James was saying that it's fine to allow all input methods on the menus, but that the player should be forced to make a conscious choice of input method before entering the actual game. That would be my opinion, in any case.

[Anthony Flack]

I'm not so sure he was agreeing either, Mike. It sounded like the opposite to me.

I think the choice should really be explicit, too. Not to mention avoiding awkward situations like bumping the mouse when you're trying to play with the keyboard. Oh, and I've been very careful to design the interface so there's no bias towards any input device. You can navigate and play entirely with the mouse, or entirely with the keyboard or gamepad if you like. You can navigate with any input device up until the point you make the choice. And mouse control is always enabled on menus, but disabled for gameplay if you haven't chosen to use the mouse.

[James C. Smith]

Actually james was agreeing with me. All the control options work all the time. If you move the mouse, the character moves. If you press an arrow key, the character moves. If you tap your gamepad, he moves.

Actually, I was not agreeing with you Mike. I think it is fine that all the controls work all the time.(keyboard and mouse). And I understand that technically the "select controls" menu is not needed. But I think it should be shown anyway. Heck, you could ignore what they click on and still allow all controls to work all the time. But it is still useful to show this option and force them to pick one. Don't display a message and let them just click "OK" to continue. Make them make a decision in their mind. Make them select "Keyboard" or "Mouse". And then, if you want, you can make them both work anyway.

If you don't force them to make this choice, most users will never know the keyboard is an option and will be stuck in mouse world forever.

[Mike Boeh]

I did an a/b with and without that screen for a period of 2 months. The game sold better without the screen. It wasn't by a 2-1 margin or anthing, but it was better. I can't say why, perhaps making them think about the controls isn't a good thing.

[James C. Smith]

I think it depends how well the mouse controls work.

If you have a keyboard game, you may think that adding some optional mouse controls “couldn’t hurt” and may appeal to some players. My point was, in some cases I think it could hurt. If the mouse controls are significantly worse than the keyboard controls, and it is not obvious that the keyboard is an option, then the mouse controls could detract from the game rather than adding to it. Apparently that is not the case is Best Friends but I still think it is something you should carefully consider when adding “optional” mouse controls. You may think this is ridicules. Why would anyone add mouse controls if they were significantly worse than the keyboard controls? Well, they may do it because they think it couldn’t hurt. Player can still use the keyboard if they want to. And they may do it because they personally prefer the keyboard, but everyone tell them they are supposed to add mouse controls to make it “casual”. They may personally hate the mouse controls but hope that they will appease the uncomprehendible player who insists on using the mouse for everything.

I am a little surprised that the version of Best Friends without the forced option did worse. But I am more surprised that the difference was so great. How could a simple A / B choice make the game sell that much worse?

[ManuelFLara]

But I am more surprised that the difference was so great. How could a simple A / B choice make the game sell that much worse?
Actually Mike said the sales difference was not 2 to 1, just that it was better.