Retail vs Indie Game Designer & Earning Money

[SteveZ]

I came across this article while browsing the internet:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/14

Thinking about it twice, it seems that successful indie game designers DO probably make more than the retail game designers - like those we hear and read in magazines. The irony is, I was thinking of using my indie gaming design skill to help land me a job as a starting retail game designers.

What is your take on the article?

Regards,
Steve Z.

[Allen Varney]

This is currently being discussed in the thread "The Escapist refers to this forum" (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?p=57121).

[cliffski]

You must be kidding! you really want to leave indie game design to go work on a 'triple A' retail title? I'd be very suprised if they earned very much (unless they are also shareholders like Meier, Molyneux etc), and watching some of them work , you can tell its hugely frustrating, depressing and soul-destroying work, even assuming you are lucky to work on a game thats vaguely a genre you like.
Don't do it!

[Christian]

Ahh, the love for the money...dont do it!, itll only destroy your soul as cliffski said!!

[Savant]

Well, the advantage with a good retail developer job is a reliable income stream. Note that "good" means a stable developer who didn't just start up last week. Landing a job at a place like id or Epic or Valve is a stable job. The offset being that you generally work insane hours and it's hard to fit in time for indie projects around those hours.

The advantage of being a full time indie is freedom in everything you do but at the same time it's a huge risk. If your games aren't making money, then you aren't making money - hence, you aren't eating or paying your mortgage. It's scary but if you can pull it off, it certainly seems like a nice gig.

Another option might be to get a boring database programming job - good pay, 9-5 hours, and stability. Leaves you with time in the evenings/weekends to get your indie business stabilized.

[monco]

Another option might be to get a boring database programming job - good pay, 9-5 hours, and stability. Leaves you with time in the evenings/weekends to get your indie business stabilized.

That's me in a nutshell (system integration, not database).

[cliffski]

contracts will state working hours. just because a retail games manager is stupid enough to think he can intimidate everyone into working stupid hours doesn't mean that he has a leg to stand on in terms of forcing it. Good teams have producres who schedule the work sensibly. There should be no reason for crunch. 90% of the time, there is a crunch mode because people expect there to be one and put up with it. Nobody physically stops you leaving the office. If developers worked sensible hours, managers would learn and schedule them sensibly.
Thats one of my pet hates about retail.

[Savant]

cliffski

I agree that crunch mode sucks and nobody is stopping you from leaving the office - but there are lots of reasons why people do it. Friendship, being part of a team, etc. It's not always because they don't realize they can go home.

It doesn't win you many friends to say, "Well, my contact doesn't say I have to stay here and work late so I'll see you losers in the morning".

Peer pressure has a lot to do with it as well. How does a junior employee find the balls to stand up and leave at 5pm when the rest of the team is working until 2am to meet a deadline?

Maybe you're immune to these societal pressures and, if so, I commend you. The majority of the population, however, isn't.

[Hamumu]

It's a lot more than merely peer pressure that makes crunch mode a reality. The simple fact is, if the people you're working for don't like how you're doing ("Hey, he's not a team player!"), they can find ways to decide it's just not working out with you. And sticking to the stated hours instead of crunching with the rest of the team is exactly the kind of thing that causes this. Around here, our teachers went on 'strike' by working only their contracted hours. It was devastating! They normally work about double what they're contracted to. And if it hadn't been a general strike, but just one person saying "this is all you're paying me to do, it's all I'm doing", they would've lasted about a week before they were found to not be "teaching to standards" or whatever it takes (a little harder due to tenure, but they can do it! Or at least make it unpleasant enough for you that you'll leave).

Working for the man sucks! I'm not doing it again! Honestly, I would sooner go work at a bookstore or grocery store than return to that (partly because I don't want to burn out my mind at a mentally challenging job, making me too tired for gamedev when I get home).

[Olivier]

Liquidation happened to the retail games company I worked for. And this is one of the best thing that ever happened to me!

[milieu]

The one advantage I see to retail game industry jobs is for acquiring skills. Someone else is paying you to sit there and learn about making games. In a small company, you can manage to learn a lot of varied skills; in a big one, you'll probably be more focused on a single skill. Either way, it gives you the experience and knowledge to work on your own projects later.

If you already have these skills, then I don't see much upside. You could make more money, work 8-5 with proper breaks, and have better benefits by working in other industries - medical, banking, university, etc.

[Hamumu]

Yeah, I only worked at a company for about 10 months, but I learned a lot. Of course a lot of it was what NOT to do, but it's all valuable. The biggest value was in being exposed to so many other programmers and their code in person.

[cliffski]

thats more true for code than design though. maybe its worth doing 6 months as a low paid trodden on designer to see how the big boys do it, but you wont get as much job satisfaction as you will as an indie. Designing a whole game gives you a better picture than just balancing unit data for 6 months.
I am lucky enough to be immune to peer pressure. Its a huge life skill :D I'm the only person I know who ever agreed to be a best man on condition of not making a speech, and then never made a speech on the day :D
Crunch mode is the worst thing about big games, that and the crap they make you put in (nothing too complex for the mass market, unskippable logos, adverts... etc etc).

[Jay_Kyburz]

I would imagine both retail and indie developers have times of crunching. We all face deadlines.

If you are working more hours that you want to, have some self respect, get up and leave or quit.

In my opinion the biggest difference between working for the man and working for yourself is in the potential reward. When working for somebody else you will only ever earn your salary.

By making my own game there is at least a very small possibility that I will have a big hit and be financially comfortable for the rest of my life.

(yes a very very small chance)

[Anthony Flack]

I would imagine both retail and indie developers have times of crunching. We all face deadlines.


Not me! I'll sit here and overrun my launch dates by years, and not lose any sleep over it. I am an example to you all.

[BitBoy]

Not me! I'll sit here and overrun my launch dates by years, and not lose any sleep over it. I am an example to you all. The question is if you're a good or a bad example for us! ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist.. You know we're all waiting patiently for Cletus!)