Indie Game Development Choices

[NothingLikeit]

Hi.

I'm fairly new to indie game development. As I've seen what my fellow developers are making I've noticed that most of the games that are complete and get press are ones that are updates or derivatives of older arcade games. The others are 2d style puzzle games. With all the engines available I was just wondering why there's not many 'mainstream like' titles such as sports, action, strategy, rpg, whatever.... Is it a business reason?

Are casual games easier to sell?

Or is it just what everyone wanted to make at the thime? Or could afford to make?

[tentons]

I don't know much, but it seems to me that one reason there aren't as many hardcore games (besides the amount of time/effort involved) is that there aren't many good marketing channels for these games. It's between a rock and a hard place.

For instance, you have a huge number of sites that sell puzzle games etc (Yahoo, Real, tons of smaller sites, etc), so if you release a good one you can get a decent amount of exposure pretty easily.

If you create something more hardcore, the bigger sites that focus on hardcore games (IGN, GameSpot, etc) are not going to give you much press because you aren't "news" (ie, $25 million budget) and the puzzle sites aren't going to cover you since they don't cater to a hardcore audience. This leaves you with no easy way to generate exposure and get downloads/sales.

With time, I think more hardcore downloadable games will appear, but not until there are better marketing channels available. Exceptions exist, of course, but on the whole you will have a hard time marketing a small scale but hardcore game. Not to discourage by any means--it's definitely possible to make a hardcore game and be successful--but it's not easy and thus the path of least resistance is to make a simpler game that is more prone to get exposure in the dominant online market.

(Again, I'm conjecturing here, but this is my perception of that aspect of the issue in the context of your question.)

[terin]

Hey there chief, welcome to the forums.

As the resident marketing chump, here's your answers :)

Plenty of developers go way outside the boundries, and in fact, these are the guys who get the most coverage. However, it is not neccesarily more profitable.

Casual titles are quick to produce and the #1 purchaser of online goods are housewives. This means that they are fast to produce and have the largest market. It's not stunning that there are so many produced with variables like that.

However, there are some who go after mainstream audiences: take Trash for instance (www.inhumangames.com) or Jets and Guns (www.rakeingrass.com) or the Spiderweb RPGs, or Void War (www.voidwar.com) or I of the Enemy (www.ioftheenemy.com) or StarPeace (www.starpeace2.com)

the list goes on and on and on. It is very risky to take over a year to produce a game when you know that the market is not the largest... Of the above listed titles I imagine only Spiderweb and Jets N Guns will get returns worth their while, even though every game I just listed is absolutely superb. You can figure it out just by looking at the development time on some of them:

Trash: 5 years
I of the Enemy: 3 years
Void War: 1.5 years(quasi accurate)
Spider Web: Not sure, but probably about 1 year because they recycle art.
Jets N' Guns: Probably less than a year.

Go figure the shortest dev cycles are the most likely to profit.

If you are referring instead to creating TOTALLY unique games... that's horrible. Don't do it till you are stable... its like putting all your eggs in one basket and dropping them off a building... it COULD land in a nice pillow truck but it will probably land on a police officer.

(that is a very weird anaology)

Ok, rant over... so that is why you see so many of the same types of games. You can make a game outside those casual games and do very well, just keep scope of project in mind and if it is a hardcore game, hire VGsmart to help you.

-Joe
(Owner of VGsmart)

[Hiro_Antagonist]

FWIW, Land of Legends aims towards a 'mainstream' audience (it's turn-based strategy). It took 1.5 years to develop, and I plan on turning a profit.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[Black Hydra]

I think that the big reason you don't see a lot of more 'mainstream' titles is because it is much harder to be competitive when making these titles. Big studio's can afford to make mainstream titles of superb quality, so competing with their budget's and experience is difficult for most indies. That is why many move to the casual gaming sector where you can put together a professional casual game with less resources and a smaller budget.

Because although a game like Trash may be "excellent" it is still excellent for an indie, and I doubt it can compete with the likes of Warcraft III or other AAA RTS games.

But hey, what do I know?

[terin]

I should interject that "profit" in this case refers to net profit less potential profit for using your time elsewhere.

With regard to Lands of Legend your profit must be your net profit (gross revenue less costs) and then subtract what 1.5 years of your time should be worth (maybe 60k?)

Will it still turn a profit? I hope so! If you had produced 2.5-3 casual games (as good as Lands of Legends in quality) could you have made more? That's the question here as I read it.

I suspect the sad answer is you could... and the SUPER IMPORTANT THING TO NOTE is that my above statement puts ZERO DOLLARS IN VALUE ON "DOING WHAT YOU ENJOY"

Note the all caps to emphasise the point: Most of us make or work with hardcore games because we enjoy it, not to make the most for our time. As its been said many times... if we wanted to make money we would make utlitities :)

-Joe

[NothingLikeit]

That's what I'm getting at. I guess for some independents we're still truly not independent because you still have to eat. :-) But the glut of puzzle games suprises me.

In part i guess that could be that that's the hot thing of the moment. Similar to the FPS craze of the mid 90s. As far as the lack of exposure for core titles I'm hoping that my indie news site will help shed light on lesser known titles.

The mainstream doesn't take the indie market seriously yet. I think that's our biggest problem. But I think you're right the shorter the dev cycle the faster the return.

[Hiro_Antagonist]

With regard to Lands of Legend your profit must be your net profit (gross revenue less costs) and then subtract what 1.5 years of your time should be worth (maybe 60k?)

Will it still turn a profit?
Ah, well then, by that measure almost certainly not. And you're right, I could easily have made $60k+/year if I'd stayed in traditional development/project management, and I seriously doubt I'll be able to rake in $100k for myself from this project. In fact, I'm aiming for that for my whole team (they are paid on commission) and I think that's an agressive goal.


If you had produced 2.5-3 casual games (as good as Lands of Legends in quality) could you have made more? That's the question here as I read it.
Well, I doubt 2-3 casual games made by me would make as much for me as Land of Legends will. Part of that is because I probably would have been on my own for publishing and what-not -- basically crossing fingers to get onto portals. I think Land of Legends is a significantly original product in an underfilled space, whereas any casual games I could personally make would probably get lost in the shuffle and therefore not have made much money at all.

That said, I want to point out that I *do* find tremendous value in being able to make LOL as my own project rather than working for 'the man'. Also, I consider LOL the foundation of a very long-term investment (5-10 years) where future games will be more profitable. So some of the 'profit' of Land of Legends is really just setting myself up for more future profitability.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[terin]

And there you have it: I have goaded my fellow artisan (we're waxing poetic here) into displaying exactly why there IS development into this hard core market that you claim is non-existant (or at least non-popular).

So, from the mouth of the beast, a very friendly friend o' mine... he has proclaimed why you would want to go the hardcore route and the risks and rewards thereof.

How'er!!!! (The thredjack...) Hiro, pish posh mon fraire! Rather than finger cross and hope for portals you finger crossed and snagged a publisher :) Tit for tat and sumsuch! Can't go claiming you'd not be in the same boat yer in now should you've given to developin them thar casual games.

The moral of my poorly written yet insanely comical (does anyone else think I am having a very strange day) dialogue is this:

There are risks in both directions you select to go. Know the strengths and weaknesses of each market and make a business decision factoring in your personal enjoyment and SKILL.... and if you are a business minded individual who really likes to go bugnuts with numbers, give each personal attribute a monitary value.

And there we have it. I've been working way too hard and I apparently have this strange penchant for throwing together phrases and slang into an otherwise dull and uninspiring business discussion.

-Joe (crazy for marketing) Lieberman

[NothingLikeit]

I pretty much agree with you terin. I asked the original question becuase my first two titles are nothing like what's published on the game portals. Not that they're original.... they're just not puzzle games.... :D . I myself feel that the core audience is underserved.... Basically people like me. They have a ps2 and play thier PC but won't upgrade right away for the glitsiest game. I think that the budget PC market is a tottally underutilized business model. the portals are giving the casual gamer cheap games.... but what about the middle of the road audience?

[tentons]

I agree that there's a middle ground. With all the talk about the death of the AAA market and the coming crash of the casual market, maybe this is the next big goldrush.

[terin]

Hah! Hah er... hah I goaded Hiro into giving away his true identity (aka, why he didn't just make a casual game).

-Joe

PS: Your site's top link (armor) links back to your review page. It also displays with some errors... but thanks for taking a look at I of the Enemy :)

[NothingLikeit]

Hah! Hah er... hah I goaded Hiro into giving away his true identity (aka, why he didn't just make a casual game).

-Joe

PS: Your site's top link (armor) links back to your review page. It also displays with some errors... but thanks for taking a look at I of the Enemy :)


was that your game? ha ha it was actually a good one... My new plan for the site is to do a game publication. NO one does strategy guides..... so I'm going to delve into that. Kinda giving back to the industry and helping in a waqy that I can.

I have a few things to fix on the site..... expect an update soon.

[alfie]

My new plan for the site is to do a game publication. NO one does strategy guides.....

Do you have any cost pricings on strategy guides/books? Assuming you dont mean some sort of ebook format.

[papillon]

no one does strategy guides because usually going to gamefaqs.com or the universal hint system is in order... :)

However, gamefaqs is snooty about accepting guides for non-retail games, so if you can find enough complex indie RPGs... :)

[NothingLikeit]

Yeah my whole reasoning with the indie game guide is to give the same type of exposure to indie games that gamespot,gamespy, and game faqs gives to the 'mainstream' game industry.

I'm not planning on charging for the guides. It would be like the hints and walktrhoughs featured on gamespot. There are some indie games that could sorely use cheat codes or at least a walkthrough.

[alfie]

Yeah my whole reasoning with the indie game guide is to give the same type of exposure to indie games that gamespot,gamespy, and game faqs gives to the 'mainstream' game industry.

I'm not planning on charging for the guides. It would be like the hints and walktrhoughs featured on gamespot. There are some indie games that could sorely use cheat codes or at least a walkthrough.

That makes sense, there seems to be a gap in the market.

I was thinking about commisioning a small guide ( paper format ) for one of my games and selling it as an extra add on to the game.

[NothingLikeit]

well since there's no equivalent of the gamefaqs for indies you may have something there. but some net savvy customers may be put off by you charging for hints. since they're used to getting them for free nowadays.

But if you're interested in a review or a strategy guide or even just posting codes on my site. Send me a private message

[James C. Smith]

I was just wondering why there's not many 'mainstream like' titles such as sports, action, strategy, rpg, whatever.... Is it a business reason?

I don't want to compete with EA, Valve, Blizzard, and ID. I would rather take on Retro 64 and make a better breakout game than they did. ;)

[NothingLikeit]

I don't want to compete with EA, Valve, Blizzard, and ID. I would rather take on Retro 64 and make a better breakout game than they did. ;)

so are you motivated more by competition James or just personal goals like: "this is the game I want to make"?

yeah personally i don't have the staff, time, money or the wherewithall to compete with those big guys. But I've noticed a gap (Maybe its just my imagination) So hopefully I can make something to fill it.

My mantra is if you can't compete with the big guys don't..... Do the best you can with what you can

[Jay_Kyburz]

I don't want to compete with EA, Valve, Blizzard, and ID. I would rather take on Retro 64 and make a better breakout game than they did. ;)

I don't plan to compete with these guys, I want to complement their games.

I've read the WoW now has over 4 million players.

My game will be set in a world that is a cross between Warcraft and Warhammer Universes.

A strategy game that will offer players another opportunity to play with familiar looking Orcs, Elves and Dwarves.

[soniCron]

I don't plan to compete with these guys, I want to complement their games. But can you compete with their production quality? Because if you can't, you're headed for some rough waters... Why play yours when I could be the 4 millionth and one WoW player?

[NothingLikeit]

But can you compete with their production quality? Because if you can't, you're headed for some rough waters... Why play yours when I could be the 4 millionth and one WoW player?

I would say because it's cheaper and maybe it seems interesting at the time... I played this game that came out about a year ago called "The Deadly Dozen" and its sequel "Pacific Theater." They we're just 10 buck games I picked up at Walmart. But they were actually really good. Mind you it was made by a small developer. I would say they were just as fun as Medal of Honor which was released around the same time. I would venture to say i got the same fun value out of the playing the $10 deadly dozen. as opposed to $50 Medal of Honor.

So I say if you can make an experience that's just as fun as the big guys but cheaper... someone (hopefully enough to sustain your financial needs) will check it out.

That said, unless you're doing something ground breaking I doubt few players will get converted.... But more people are starting to check out Independent titles as the industry gets exposure....

Some publishers also have a whole division that aquires 'budget' titles. Valusoft, Activision Value, and some smaller publishers seem to be having luck with this model. But I'm almost baffled with the titles they publish under these brands. Some look really bad. I mean what are they looking for?

End Rant....

[Jay_Kyburz]

But can you compete with their production quality? Because if you can't, you're headed for some rough waters... Why play yours when I could be the 4 millionth and one WoW player?

I'm a 3d artist working on AAA games so I'm already competing on that front. The game will be a turn based strategy to keep the code as simple as possible. Sound could be a problem. :)

The point is to attract players who are already playing WoW and enjoy it, not to steal customers away. I'm not going to make the same game, I'm going to try and complement what they have. When you are bored of WoW come and play my game that is X-Com in a WoW like world.

The trick is the leverage their marketing without infringing their copyright.


<Edit>

Oh and I should add that I think allot of people who visit the forum could easily meet their production quality. It's the "quantity" that we can't do.

[James C. Smith]

so are you motivated more by competition James or just personal goals like: "this is the game I want to make"?


It has nothing to do with motivation, or trying to be “the best”, or making the game I want to make. It is just the simple reality of what I think will do well in the marketplace. I think that if I tried to make “'mainstream like' titles such as sports, action, strategy, rpg” it would end up looking cheap and simplistic compared to the sports and RPG titles that the consumers are used to seeing. I am afraid I could not be profitable making a sports game because people who play sports games expect a level of quality and a volume of content that I can not deliver.

Don’t get me wrong, It is important to make a game you like. And I always do that. I make a list of all the games I would like to make for personal reasons, and then cross off the ones that I don’t think would sell well. I develop what is left. Certain types of games are always crossed of the list because EA does them better than I can. I am sure you could argue that you (or I) could do them cheaper than EA, or fill some niche that they don’t fill. That is fine. You can do that. But I am was giving you my reason for why I don’t do it.

[NothingLikeit]

James, I respect what you've done because you've actually finished games... I'm still sitting at the starting gate..

But you brought up a very good point. If you are making games for commercial endeavors (which is what i'm don't) it makes sense to do what you think you can do best. I used to think I was only going to make games for my self. But When I took my writing for games class my teacher reminded me that it's not about what the developer wants its about the customer.... So now my process is after I come up with a design and see if anything else like it already exists... and I see how I can improve on it.

The exception is my first game. The World War II thing has been done. but I made a promise to finish it....

That said America is a big enough place that someone will buy what you have....