From table top into computer environment...

[cheese_phantom]

Hi all,

as you might know from some other threads, I am an amateur designer with no programming or computer graphic skills. Whatever I design or prototype is table-top or pen-and-paper. However, I want to develope my skills and want to be able to create more of the stuff using my computer. I need your advice for developing my practical skills to use my computer more efficient for design issues. For now it's just like a typing machine and used to write basic documentation for the games.

Usually I draw all my stuff, maps, GUI, character and object models by hand or use clay and stuff to make them 3-D. But when I try to get something like this with a graphics or paint program, the result is usually terrible. So I prefer to have the hand-made stuff as a basis and would like to use these for work with computer. However, I have no clear idea what methods are available to transfer such hand-drawn material into my computer. (Scan them and use Photoshop?? What about 3-D models?) Besides, even if I could transfer the stuff, they would remain "still images" and I wouldn't be able to check out how certain functions I assigned on the GUI or models really work.

My goal is to become able to do this stuff on my computer and make use of my hand-made drawings and models in the computer environment.

Now my questions are:

1. What methods or programs do you use to get your sketches into a computer environment?
2. What programs or methods do you use to work on these sketches and turn them into professional looking computer graphics?
3. What do you do to make them interactive? Do you have certain programs available that allow you to simulate the UI functions or do you write your own programs or editors? How do you animate these models, once you have them in the computer?

The questions in brief are like: What do you do to get the table-top version of your game into the computer and have a "living" thing you can play with? Maybe not as a whole, but at least the various "units". Is that already stepping into implementation and can't be solved without programming and professional CG skills, or do have designers a chance to keep this part of the development in the early-design and preparation phase, without really needing the help of a programmer or a CG artist?

The same goes for playing with stats that decide avatar/NPC actions and determine outcomes. Say I have a character class with certain attributes/actions and values assigned to them. Also weapons or tools that add or subtract form these values and create state changes or other outcomes. Usually I'd simulate a confrontation between two warriors on table and I would calculate damage etc by hand.

4. Do you know of any method or program that would allow me to "create" such entities or objects in my computer, enter the values and the formulas and then simulate the actions automatically? I don't need to see the actions, it's enough to see how the stats change and what the outcome would be. I heard that for some RPGs they use Excel for that kind of stuff.

I'd appreciate any advise or help...

[Hiro_Antagonist]

Hey there.

I think the short answer is that this stuff is much, much more effort than you probably think, even if you're just trying to make a personal prototype. Making games is tough, tough work that requires a lot of knowledge in a lot of disciplines.

As Tim Sweeny (Epic Games) once told me when I was in 10th grade or so: (paraphrased) "Everybody's got ideas. But it takes a developer to make those ideas real. If you want to be able to manifest your ideas, you've basically got to become a developer."

Of course, normally if you are a developer, you need an art person too. It sounds like you can be the art counterpart to someone, which is good, but real-life physical art skills don't translate directly to computer art skills. There's an awful lot to learn to get these skills, and you have to learn a fair amount of math too.

In order to be a viable artist to make working 3d models, textures, and animations for a decent game, you will need at least a year or two of schooling and/or rigerous self-directed study. There are better communities where you can learn which programs to be studying to develop such skills -- this isn't the best place for that.

I'm not sure of our age, but I'm guessing your relatively young (low 20's at most), but have a passion for wanting to make games. I'm guessing if you set yourself on the path now for learning at least one crucial skill (development, computer art production, etc.), then in a couple/few years you may be in a position to work on something. School is probably the best way to do this.

Sorry, I know I didn't exactly answer your questions, but these forums aren't the best place for those sorts of questions. These particular forums are for people who already have the skills to put together a project, and are working to bring it to market (or have already put products on the market).

-Hiro_Antagonist

[Christian]

Well, the things that hero say are right, but i dont think you meant that...

I think that you want to make is to take table-top design to a computer, not to make a "real" video game, and you also want techniques to translate the graphics into the computer.

Well, since this kind of games only require moving parts, wich is really easy to do in programming, i would recommend you one of those game making programs, the best of them that i recommend you is called Game Maker, really powerfull, fast to make games, and not many knowledge required. With this program you can make the graphics, move the parts, and programm the calculations you require for your game.

[cheese_phantom]

Hey,

@Christian:

I think that you want to make is to take table-top design to a computer, not to make a "real" video game, and you also want techniques to translate the graphics into the computer.

Exactly :-)

Thanks a lot for the suggestion. Got some more?? :-) I downloaded Gamemaker already, but couldn't check out its features. If it's like you tell, it will be of great help. Did you have a chance to use it? You can also upgrade to a full version and I wonder if doing this makes a big difference. Have any idea about this?

@Hiro_Antagonist:

Yeah, it was not quite the answer I was looking for, but thanks a lot for taking the time. So Tim Sweeny was your teacher? Lucky you!

[Christian]

Yes i am a fan of game maker :), its so easy and fast to use and also powefull. You dont need to upgrade unless you want more advanced features like particle effects and stuff like that, you can make anything you want with the unregistered version, also try to check its features, and also check the older version 5.0 if you need less requirements.


Another suggestion?, well, you plan to release you games commercially?, if yes, you need to learn to use the computer to make graphics, maybe 3d modelers like blender too. You have a lot of things to learn...how old are you???

[tunca]

In the starting post by cheese_phantom, if artwork stuff is swapped with technical stuff, then the same thread holds true for me.

I have the required technical skills, but I can't do any good artwork! I tried to learn photoshop and 3dsmax. I also tried to compose music. And I tried every way to write stories. I could never do some artwork that people loved. Now I finish most of my games first and then go to an artist to polish them.

[cheese_phantom]

@tunca:

Oh, it's not only me who has this problem? Yeah, I'd love to go to an dedicated artist, but I couldn't yet find a person here around. I was in the hope to find some tools or methods that a designer could use to do at least some part of the transfer of the hand-made stuff without the need to go an artist or programmer.

@christian:
Thanks again. If it is like you say, Gamemaker can be used as sort of a test-bed for many features of a game, if not for the whole game. It would help me a lot, since I could check out earlier if the things I plan to implement in the game work or not. You get estimates when you do it table-top, but there is nothing like seeing it on screen.

You have a lot of things to learn...

Yeah, I know I have to learn art packages. It's a matter of time. But right now I am not able to use them efficiently. There are many tutorials out there and I also know about the communities. I have no problems with story design or sound design since I am a teacher in creative writing and also work for a radio station.

how old are you???

You would be surprised to know how "young" I am. I think two things make people think I am a teenager: 1. I am a newbie in many aspects of game development and ask beginner questions that usually come from the U20 age groups; 2. My english has flaws.

The awful truth (for me at least) is that I past my low-20s long time ago.:) In my own country and language I am an established writer since many years and for sure there are a thing or two I could teach people here about story design... never underestimate the various talents of a newbie games designer in his 30s. :cool:

But thanks god there is no age limit for people that want to learn to make games... even if sometimes the professionals feel that their peace is disturbed ;)


@all:

So, anyone out there who wants to share how s/he solves early-design problems I mentioned in the first post in this thread??

[Christian]

Well, i allways liked to draw, but i dont draw at a pro level, still i have been learning game development stuff since i am 15, now im 22, and i have polished my drawing skills since then, i have larned to make decent 3d models, i now know how to do nice sounds for my games, i know how to programm them, and now i have finally made some progress in making music with a sequencer called modlpug, but not learnig music really, i have taken a short cut in almost all this thigs, for example in making music, i have 2 programs, the actual tracker, called modlpug, to make de music, and another one, that makes the music for me! hehe, actually, i generate pieces of music, wich hears quite well, but cant be considered a song, so i paste and copy the notes in there to the modplug (i havent made a song yet, i havent the time right now); another example is, although i have learned programming and have experience using pro languages, i have been using game making tools to speed up the process, and make my job easier.
At first i thought that making story for games was a good idea, but not now, although i write nice (i have been told so), i have decided not to make stories, making the games process...simpler, but still not easy.
To be a better artist i have found good tutorials on the net that teached me techniques, frequented communities, and practiced a little on making games. I also got many many books from the internet about game design and programming.

I say all this as an encuragement, i did learn a lot of things in those years, so if i could do it, anyone can, you just need the will to want to learn, and much much time to do it, and also, use you intelligence to find shortcuts to your objectives.

[cheese_phantom]

At first i thought that making story for games was a good idea, but not now, although i write nice (i have been told so), i have decided not to make stories, making the games process.

I think it is a border that you eventually reach. After a while the story or the suff you wrote or the table-top prototypes give you a feel of disability; you know you got to get beyond.


I say all this as an encuragement.

I know that and it really helps. Feeling the goodwill is always a nice thing. :)

[mahlzeit]

I must admit to skimming through the above posts, but maybe BoardBoss (http://www.boardboss.biz/index.html) is something for you?

[cheese_phantom]

I must admit to skimming through the above posts, but maybe BoardBoss (http://www.boardboss.biz/index.html) is something for you?

Thanks for the tip; just recently found a similar tool for free :) But I'll keep this one in mind. There are also a lot for word-game creation tools. I found map-editors, character-creators and what not.

[rioka]

It is possible to turn your sketch into a 3D model but the program to do it is not available to the public and is still under development, AFAIK. You can read up on it here if you want: Sktech-based Modeling with Few Strokes (http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mario/publ/2005/cherlin-sccg-05/index.htm).

For getting drawings into the computer - scanning is the best way to go but if you don't have it, you can just take a digital picture (in good lighting conditions and high quality, of course) and upload it that way.

I tend to use Photoshop for clean-ups and coloring. You can find tutorials and what-not all over the web for techniques like this place (http://www.good-tutorials.com/).

For animations, there are two methods that I know of you can do. Either a) program the animation into your game or b) create an already existing animation (ex/ animated gif) and plug that in. Most tend to go with method A.

[Olivier]

Tiens un Breton! :D
Je pense que pour commencer, la meilleure chose Ã* faire est d'installer un éditeur 2D et 3D (démo ou gratuits) et de suivre des tutoriels.

Quelques suggestions:
http://www.3dvf.com
3dtotal (http://3dtotal.com)
http://www.cgchannel.com
http://www.3dluvr.com
Computer Graphics World (http://cgw.pennnet.com)
3D.ARTISTS (http://www.raph.com/3dartists/)
http://3dkingdom.org
Et un artiste impressionant sur lequel je suis tombé par hazard (en coréen) :eek:
http://xcloud.net/

La plupart de ces sites recensent des logiciels ainsi que des tutoriels. Mais ceci devrait t'intéresser tout particulièrement puisque c'est une excellente leçon de modélisation (et plus encore) Ã* partir d'un design papier (cherche le tut Joan of Arc):
http://mr2k.3dvf.net

Bon courage car il y a beaucoup d'information Ã* emmagasiner.
Kenavo! ;)

[cheese_phantom]

Hi rioka,

It is possible to turn your sketch into a 3D model but the program to do it is not available to the public and is still under development, AFAIK. You can read up on it here if you want: Sktech-based Modeling with Few Strokes (http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mario/publ/2005/cherlin-sccg-05/index.htm)..

Thanks for the link. At least I can follow-up the developments. Seems to be a useful program.

For getting drawings into the computer - scanning is the best way to go but if you don't have it, you can just take a digital picture (in good lighting conditions and high quality, of course) and upload it that way.

Yes I have a scanner. Sometimes it's not so practical since the drawing (for instance a map) is too big and when I use a smaller photocopy of it, some details get lost. But as long as I can I'll stick to this method. Digital picture is a bit more difficult. Don't have a digital camera (only a mobile phone with camera... crap :-)

I tend to use Photoshop for clean-ups and coloring. You can find tutorials and what-not all over the web for techniques like this place (http://www.good-tutorials.com/).

Yeah, think I'll use Photoshop too. Thanks for the link. By the way, there are also programs like Corel Draw. Can Corel be used for the same purpose or is it more useful in other things related to design?

For animations, there are two methods that I know of you can do. Either a) program the animation into your game or b) create an already existing animation (ex/ animated gif) and plug that in. Most tend to go with method A.

a) I am not a programmer yet... so
b) what tools do you use to make an animated gif ?? Can you draw several frames and then put them together and see how the animation works with, say, Photoshop? Or are there already some programs out there like "GIF Maker", "Animatrix", "Move It" etc :p That would be funny. Since I've heard of GameMaker, I am almost sure there is a Maker for everything.

[cheese_phantom]

Hey Oliver,

Sorry if my signature and personal info was misleading. I am not from Lorient/France. I am really in the far far Orient. And my french is very very poor. But luckily your message is easy to understand :-) And I know of André Breton by the way... just came in my mind when you mentioned Breton. Yes, I am really "bon pour l'orient" :p

Thanks for the links and the good wishes and I will be careful while I visit the site of the "artiste impressionant". However, I hope the content of the sites you've recommended are not all in french :)

Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Pearl :cool:

[Olivier]

Ha! I really thought you were located in France! :o :) :)
Hopefully most of the links are in english.

[baegsi]

What do you do to get the table-top version of your game into the computer and have a "living" thing you can play with? Maybe not as a whole, but at least the various "units".Not sure if I understand correctly what you'd like to do. Are you desgining board games and want to implement them as a PC game?

Well if so, that's what I do, too. Here is how I do this: I completly forget graphics altogether, because game mechanics and AI is much more important. Instead, I code everything as ASCII (yes, I mean ASCII) or maybe include googled images, but that's it. That's the beauty of strategy/board games, that you can create a prototype with a very simple visual part. With such a prototype, you can test your ideas.

However, I'm a programmer, so I can code this without much trouble. If you want to learn programming, you can start with an easy to learn language and pick something you like.

[cheese_phantom]

Not sure if I understand correctly what you'd like to do. Are you desgining board games and want to implement them as a PC game?

No, not really... I just wanna test some of my design material on screen without really getting into programming or without heavily using art packages.

It seems like I have options like GameMaker to do such tests or even to implement the whole thing.


I code everything as ASCII (yes, I mean ASCII)

I have a book which is called "Programming in ASCII" and it seem very complicated to me. I am quite jealous now about your programming skills. :)

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[cheese_phantom]

Ha! I really thought you were located in France! :o :) :)
Hopefully most of the links are in english.

This very small village you live in... is it where Asterix lives?? :D

Thanks again!

[Olivier]

This very small village you live in... is it where Asterix lives??
Yes exacltly! How did you guess? :D

[rioka]

Yes I have a scanner. Sometimes it's not so practical since the drawing (for instance a map) is too big and when I use a smaller photocopy of it, some details get lost. But as long as I can I'll stick to this method. Digital picture is a bit more difficult. Don't have a digital camera (only a mobile phone with camera... crap :-) What you do when the art is bigger than the scanner is to scan the art in sections. Usually 2 but if you got something really big, 4. Once you have both sections scanned in, piece them together in photoshop using the layers feature. You'll have to do some editing where the lines merge though but overall, it gets the job done and if you do it correctly, the lines will be seemless and no one will ever know it was pieced together. =)

Yeah, think I'll use Photoshop too. Thanks for the link. By the way, there are also programs like Corel Draw. Can Corel be used for the same purpose or is it more useful in other things related to design? Corel can be used as well. Some even use PSP (Paint Shop Pro), Gimp, etc. Work with what you have and your budget. If it gets the job done in the end, it doesn't really matter what you've used, imo.


b) what tools do you use to make an animated gif ?? Can you draw several frames and then put them together and see how the animation works with, say, Photoshop? Or are there already some programs out there like "GIF Maker", "Animatrix", "Move It" etc :p That would be funny. Since I've heard of GameMaker, I am almost sure there is a Maker for everything. There is GIF Animator, Flash (which has an option to save works as gif animations), and others if you look around. Yes, you can make the several frames in Photoshop but actually seeing it in action, you'll have to do one of the two things I mentioned earlier.

Here's a tip - for easy, and cost-effective animations checks, what I do is open the first of the animation frames in "Windows Fax and Image Viewer" and just quickly press the right button. Of course, you'll have to make sure your images are named sequentially. Btw, here's an online tutorial (http://www.renaigames.net/dev_renpy2.html#4) on how an interactive fiction engine handles animations.

[cheese_phantom]

What you do when the art is bigger than the scanner is to scan the art in sections. Usually 2 but if you got something really big, 4. Once you have both sections scanned in, piece them together in photoshop using the layers feature. You'll have to do some editing where the lines merge though but overall, it gets the job done and if you do it correctly, the lines will be seemless and no one will ever know it was pieced together. =)

I was going to ask this actually, but then I thought I shouldn't really ask for things that I might find myself in the help files or tutorials for an art package. Thanks a lot for the tip.

There is GIF Animator, Flash (which has an option to save works as gif animations), and others if you look around. Yes, you can make the several frames in Photoshop but actually seeing it in action, you'll have to do one of the two things I mentioned earlier.

Flash came in my mind too (though I never used it), but I didn't really think it would allow you to save animations in gif format. You mean I make the frames with photoshop, but test them in a flash or GİF Animator enviroment since photoshop doesn't have such a test option? Hm, ok.

Here's a tip - for easy, and cost-effective animations checks, what I do is open the first of the animation frames in "Windows Fax and Image Viewer" and just quickly press the right button. Of course, you'll have to make sure your images are named sequentially.

Yeah, I know that one :-)

Thanks again!