View Full Version : Space RTS/Shooter
What types of things would you guys most be interested by in a Space RTS style Shooting game? Anything goes just dont post s**t plz! :)
soniCron
08-22-2005, 06:14 PM
What types of things would you guys most be interested by in a Space RTS style Shooting game? Anything goes just dont post s**t plz! :) Uhm, whatever happened to GeoTaxi?
The guy i was working with took all my ideas and made a game with someone else... it was a project i was doing in Programming Class in school.
Ska Software
08-23-2005, 07:21 AM
I want to make a space game called I Hate Space Games that's a total Escape Velocity ripoff. The irony is that I really hate space games.
merovingian
08-23-2005, 08:21 AM
Hey, how about an unofficial sequel to Desert Bus where you have to fly a sublight freighter to Alpha Centauri? Occasionally, asteroids fly at you at 1/10th the speed of light so don't let your attention drift from the gun turret for a moment or you'll be a space splotch!
It has everything! Space! Strategy! Shooting! Did I miss anything?
Never heard of Desert Bus but ill look into it, thanks merovingian. And Ska Software if you dont like that type of game then why make it? Sounds odd making a game you dont like :D
cliffski
08-23-2005, 12:18 PM
A good quality space RTS with lots of units would be a great idea. it can be a top down 2D thing. The best ever so far has been Starfleet Command. I have started one before but got distracted, but I'd love to play a good one. In space there is no terrain so pathfinding is easy :D.
Check out Starfleet command for inspiration.
If you talking about Star Treks Starfleet Command then ya thats a good game! I got alot of my ideas from it and Homeworld 2 im thinking about having it 2D with some 3D elements to it. and i plan on having lots of units!!
Ska Software
08-23-2005, 01:47 PM
Never heard of Desert Bus but ill look into it, thanks merovingian. And Ska Software if you dont like that type of game then why make it? Sounds odd making a game you dont like :D
Cause I'm convinced they sell and I'm becoming a whore to consumerism!
Not really...
lol I wont bother asking...
merovingian
08-25-2005, 08:23 AM
On a somewhat unrelated note, why does the genre suck so bad?
I mean there really hasn't been a great space shooter IMO since Freespace 2, and its sales were just awful. The only way to make decent sales here seems to be setting the sucker in a known universe like Star Wars and even then, most of the recent efforts were boring retreads of previous glory with better graphics.
And please don't bring up X and X2: those were micromanagement nightmares of a genre that hasn't been done right since Sundog IMO - trading for trinkets.
well i dont really even know what X and X2 are so that wont be brought up. And it probly because it has been conquered by other sorts of games and nobody has really tried to make another type of game in its genre. Well there has been a few good ones like the StarTrek: Starfleet Command games and Starscape. but thats really it. It probly that space games arent to interesting to most people anymore.
merovingian
08-25-2005, 10:18 AM
well i dont really even know what X and X2 are so that wont be brought up. And it probly because it has been conquered by other sorts of games and nobody has really tried to make another type of game in its genre. Well there has been a few good ones like the StarTrek: Starfleet Command games and Starscape. but thats really it. It probly that space games arent to interesting to most people anymore.
So perhaps you might want to figure out why this genre is so dead before you try to reanimate it?
Neither of those games were major commercial successes as far as I can tell. Heck, I'm a space shooter addict and I'd never heard of Starscape (but that's probably because it's 2D rather than 3D).
I will say this though: there has been a steady trickle of space shooters and they just as steadily fail.
Laser Lou
08-25-2005, 10:26 AM
What interests me the most is to just do something different from the other games. Come up with new ideas, and if you can't, use ideas from other genres. Don't use ideas from other space games.
How about adding "spacejacking" - a space version of carjacking? How about a ship that can consume smaller enemy ships that can't beat it, taking all of their stuff? Why don't space games have black holes? See what I mean?
Ya, i kno what you guys mean its a dead genre now but it doesnt hurt to make a game that some people would love. The point is to have fun making the game rather then have lots of people play it (Though thats the main focus) But I was planning on having a Blackhole and something like the ship you talked about but have a different plan on what it does.
merovingian
08-25-2005, 11:02 AM
What interests me the most is to just do something different from the other games. Come up with new ideas, and if you can't, use ideas from other genres. Don't use ideas from other space games.
How about adding "spacejacking" - a space version of carjacking? How about a ship that can consume smaller enemy ships that can't beat it, taking all of their stuff? Why don't space games have black holes? See what I mean?
Don't throw the baby out with the black hole IMO. There have been lots of little cool ideas in recent attempts at the genre. Those ideas deserve fresh incarnations. What's been missing IMO is a great overall game to go along with those ideas.
So I'll give you my theory here. I think space games suck because no one with AAA budget talent is making them. They're all making FPS games of one sort or another. And I believe the failure of the genre is a self-fulfilling prophecy because of this.
I can no longer play FPS games because of vertigo nor can I play micromanagement RTS games because of RSI. This leaves me in a unique position to do something original because I really have no choice but to do so.
cliffski
08-25-2005, 12:36 PM
what makes you think starfleet command flopped? they made an expansion pack and 2 sequels. and a AAA flop is still an indie blockbuster in revenue terms.
merovingian
08-25-2005, 01:35 PM
what makes you think starfleet command flopped? they made an expansion pack and 2 sequels. and a AAA flop is still an indie blockbuster in revenue terms.
Just slapping "Star Trek" on a turd will guarantee some sales. Interplay paid a lot of money for that name and they had to use it. As for AAA flops, they'd be fine indie blockbusters if they could be achieved, but consider how much money pumping to retailers that it took for said AAA flop merely to flop as opposed to a swan dive into a septic tank.
So I'll give you my theory here. I think space games suck because no one with AAA budget talent is making them. They're all making FPS games of one sort or another. And I believe the failure of the genre is a self-fulfilling prophecy because of this.
Microsoft / Digital Anvil: Freelancer. AAA budget, well known developer (Chris Roberts), plenty of marketing muscle. People stayed away in droves.
Every year developers produce new space simulations and expensive-looking and positively-reviewed space-based tactical games like Nexus (AKA Galaxy Andromeda, AKA Imperium Galactica 3). And every year they flop. People just aren't interested in space-based games anymore.
What types of things would you guys most be interested by in a Space RTS style Shooting game? Anything goes just dont post s**t plz!
Good luck with your project.
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
merovingian
08-25-2005, 03:34 PM
Microsoft / Digital Anvil: Freelancer. AAA budget, well known developer (Chris Roberts), plenty of marketing muscle. People stayed away in droves.
Every year developers produce new space simulations and expensive-looking and positively-reviewed space-based tactical games like Nexus (AKA Galaxy Andromeda, AKA Imperium Galactica 3). And every year they flop. People just aren't interested in space-based games anymore.
Good luck with your project.
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
Freelancer embodied *everything* wrong with the "trading for trinkets" genre first made famous by Elite (and totally excused because ya know, it was new back then). Add its unskippable and unspeakably horribly written FMV scenes, and f'ing bizarre flight controls (crank up the wayback machine and see Star Glider II for how to do this right, really Jez San was once an absolute god or at least Goa'ould of space game design). And it was designed by Chris Roberts, the late 1980s infallible Steve Jobs of the genre.
But but but... The multiplayer server option was really keen... That's an idea that needs to live again.
As for Imperium Galactica: did anyone who wasn't a 40 year-old virgin play this series? Now Galactic Civilizations OTOH seems to have done well enough. How did Void Wars do?
Addendum: I'm a pretty opinionated guy about this genre. I find it really hard to believe that the market has suddenly lost interest in a genre just because of its genre. There isn't a whole lot here that isn't present in other games that are popular. And yet, Freespace 2 was a hell of a game IMO, and its numbers sucked.
Well so far this project seems to me like it wont be such a good idea as i had thought it might of been. It would probly be alot better if I get ideas for a genre lots of people are into now, like FPS or RPG games and make one like that. A Phantasy Star Online type game would probly be a good mix for the indie community although I dont know what I would do and as for a FPS game i have lots of ideas (It being my favorite genre (with a collection of over 50 different FPS games.)) So I might just trash the idea and go with a shooter game instead thanks everyone for helping me not go into something that'll end up kicking me in the a** later on :D
soniCron
08-25-2005, 05:56 PM
...as for a FPS game i have lots of ideas (It being my favorite genre (with a collection of over 50 different FPS games.)) So I might just trash the idea and go with a shooter game instead thanks everyone for helping me not go into something that'll end up kicking me in the a** later on :D Yeah. Doing an FPS is certainly an alternative to "something that'll end up kicking [you] in the a** later on".
Addendum: I'm a pretty opinionated guy about this genre. I find it really hard to believe that the market has suddenly lost interest in a genre just because of its genre. There isn't a whole lot here that isn't present in other games that are popular. And yet, Freespace 2 was a hell of a game IMO, and its numbers sucked.
You can find it hard to believe, but that is what the evidence strongly suggests. Every PC-based space sim since Wing Commander IV has sold worse than the one released before it, except for X-Wing Alliance which sold moderatly well. Freelancer was able to buck this trend somewhat, thanks to Microsoft's marketing blitz and Chris Roberts' good name, but it still didn't sell a tenth of what Wing Commander 3, 4, or Privateer were able to do.
It's a dead genre. Frankly, I'd be ecstatic to see sales return to anywhere near the glory days of Freespace 2.
Perhaps Starshatter: The Gathering Storm (http://www.starshatter.com/screenshots.htm) will turn that trend around. Who knows?
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
The Starshatter game looks pretty good and the demo is something im currently downloading to my laptop right now. Well find out if this is the game to bring back a dead genre lol :)
merovingian
08-25-2005, 08:42 PM
You can find it hard to believe, but that is what the evidence strongly suggests. Every PC-based space sim since Wing Commander IV has sold worse than the one released before it, except for X-Wing Alliance which sold moderatly well. Freelancer was able to buck this trend somewhat, thanks to Microsoft's marketing blitz and Chris Roberts' good name, but it still didn't sell a tenth of what Wing Commander 3, 4, or Privateer were able to do.
It's a dead genre. Frankly, I'd be ecstatic to see sales return to anywhere near the glory days of Freespace 2.
Perhaps Starshatter: The Gathering Storm (http://www.starshatter.com/screenshots.htm) will turn that trend around. Who knows?
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
Frustrating, but some part of you must sense the genre's not quite dead or you wouldn't be making a sequel, now would you?
SquareDanceSteve
08-25-2005, 09:49 PM
milo starshatter looks really good.
I don’t think space game appeal is gone... But how many of you who bought wing commander 4 and then wing commander prophecy every bought a space game again?
I played most of the new space games… and they sucked… excluding the original independence war. But even that is an oldie. Freelancer was terrible.
I guess what I’m saying is that they are just lacking…
It comes down to implementation. I have been kicking around the idea of a command oriented space game for quite awhile, but I have in the end decided just to make my naval war game more command oriented.
Command oriented in the since of not a twitch game and not a trinket trading game. Your command vessel (IE aircraft carrier) is a very valuable asset. But your fighters and bombers are also a very valuable asset and you can’t afford to lose either of them. I am only allowing direct control of the aircraft carrier (rts style) and fighters and bombers will be squad based orders and will only fallow commands if they see fit (ie if they are in a dog fight they wont sacrifice themselves to make a torpedo run)
I guess we will see in the end.
merovingian
08-25-2005, 11:39 PM
milo starshatter looks really good.
I don’t think space game appeal is gone... But how many of you who bought wing commander 4 and then wing commander prophecy every bought a space game again?
I played most of the new space games… and they sucked… excluding the original independence war. But even that is an oldie. Freelancer was terrible.
I guess what I’m saying is that they are just lacking…
It comes down to implementation. I have been kicking around the idea of a command oriented space game for quite awhile, but I have in the end decided just to make my naval war game more command oriented.
Command oriented in the since of not a twitch game and not a trinket trading game. Your command vessel (IE aircraft carrier) is a very valuable asset. But your fighters and bombers are also a very valuable asset and you can’t afford to lose either of them. I am only allowing direct control of the aircraft carrier (rts style) and fighters and bombers will be squad based orders and will only fallow commands if they see fit (ie if they are in a dog fight they wont sacrifice themselves to make a torpedo run)
I guess we will see in the end.
Yeah, I'm with you on this. Freespace 2 was kickass. Everything else in recent years has really sucked - as in unplayably so. I wish both you and Milo the best of luck rectifying this situation.
I just don't buy that the genre is dead and maybe that will be my undoing someday.
Nexic
08-26-2005, 02:58 AM
Well so far this project seems to me like it wont be such a good idea as i had thought it might of been. It would probly be alot better if I get ideas for a genre lots of people are into now, like FPS or RPG games and make one like that. A Phantasy Star Online type game would probly be a good mix for the indie community although I dont know what I would do and as for a FPS game i have lots of ideas (It being my favorite genre (with a collection of over 50 different FPS games.)) So I might just trash the idea and go with a shooter game instead thanks everyone for helping me not go into something that'll end up kicking me in the a** later on
No offence, but your chances of finishing a FPS or RPG that will sell are so near zero that you would need to go to about 7000 decimal places to even register any chance at all. Unless of course you have at least 5 other people working on it with you, who are all talented industry professionals.
What you need to do instead is start small, go for the markets most of us are going for (more simple downloadable games) and go from there. You will soon learn the realities of selling games this way, but it won't cost you several years to find them out.
Frustrating, but some part of you must sense the genre's not quite dead or you wouldn't be making a sequel, now would you?
Well, it's what I do. Space sims have always been my favorite genre, even if they are no longer anyone else's.
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
I played most of the new space games… and they sucked… excluding the original independence war. But even that is an oldie. Freelancer was terrible.
I guess what I’m saying is that they are just lacking…
Yes, but what do you think they were lacking that caused them to fail? If they weren't fun, why weren't they fun? What was missing?
(Edit: By the way, every time I ask this question I get different answers: story, gameplay, memorable characters, good fighter combat, good starship combat, trading, beam weapons, freedom of exploration, planetary landings, realistic physics, arcade physics, the ability to play without a joystick. Everyone has a different opinion on what would make a successful space sim.
Personally, I don't believe that space sims were ever really popular. Elite, Wing Commander and XWing were the exceptions that prove the rule. Elite was one of the first 3D games ever released for home computers, and it had an unimaginably large universe to explore for the time. WC caught on because it was the graphic and storytelling tour-de-force of its time. XWing and TIE Fighter caught on because they were Star Wars. Everything else has failed.)
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
merovingian
08-29-2005, 09:22 PM
Yes, but what do you think they were lacking that caused them to fail? If they weren't fun, why weren't they fun? What was missing?
(Edit: By the way, every time I ask this question I get different answers: story, gameplay, memorable characters, good fighter combat, good starship combat, trading, beam weapons, freedom of exploration, planetary landings, realistic physics, arcade physics, the ability to play without a joystick. Everyone has a different opinion on what would make a successful space sim.
Personally, I don't believe that space sims were ever really popular. Elite, Wing Commander and XWing were the exceptions that prove the rule. Elite was one of the first 3D games ever released for home computers, and it had an unimaginably large universe to explore for the time. WC caught on because it was the graphic and storytelling tour-de-force of its time. XWing and TIE Fighter caught on because they were Star Wars. Everything else has failed.)
--milo
http://www.starshatter.com
And I think those are all right. Coming up with the right magic brew takes time, effort, and talent. And most of the contenders lacked it from the get-go IMO. To me, Freespace 2 is the most damning evidence for your theory about the genre. I can write off everything else that has followed without much thought, but Freespace 2 was a wonderful game.
But remember that B5 game? Those guys squandered a positively golden opportunity and then blamed it all on management. That's OK to a point, but it's not OK to spend 3 years doing so. By then they owned it, they broke it.
As for the most recent game that woulda shoulda coulda - Mace Griffin.
Perhaps the genre was never really all that popular, but Starshatter seems to have served you well. You've nurtured a wonderful community around that game.
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