Two button mouse control and Success of game

[SteveZ]

Hello,

A fair number of good indie games I've played can be played primarily on one button. Such as in Zuma's case, left click on mouse to shoot the ball. Even though right click switches the ball, it is not essential to play the game, and I believe it can be bypassed by pressing the space bar.

What's your take on this: How would the casual gaming market react to a game with two essential mouse button. Such as, Left click to shoot, Right Click to move to position of the mouse cursor.

Regards,
Steve Z.

[revve]

IMHO, the main reason why most indie games uses only the left-click is because of the mac platform where you have to "apple-click" to simulate a right-click. Very awkward for games I believe.

I do believe, however that many macs comes with a multiple-button mouse by default these days. You can also use a third-party multiple-button mouse, but many people don't.

[ggambett]

Don't do it. A long time ago Betty's Beer Bar had two-button controls, and everybody loved when we switched to a one-button control scheme.

[sparkyboy]

Man this is quite unbelievable,but sadly TRUE!!

And don't ever,ever contemplate using the keyboard as a form of control, coz it would be 'ARRRRRGH MY BRAIN HURTS', and if you dare to include a joystick as a control mechanism it would be 'OMFG NOOOOOOO,HEAD FOR THE HILLS'. :rolleyes:

For casual read 'LAZY'. :p

However, as I said before just check out the forums at gamefiesta if you wanna good laugh! :D

Here's a thing:-

Put all gamefiesta forum members in a round room and ask them to sit in the corner!!!! :confused:

Only problem is, 'THEY'D KEEP BLEEDIN' TRYING'!! Hehehe.


All the best


Mark.

[Olivier]

I think this really depends on the mechanics/gameplay of your game. I suggest you to implement the more confortable control scheme. Everybody can left-click and right-click.
For my current WIP game I did not choose yet whether I'll use 1 or 2 mouse buttons. If I can ads interesting twist with the right-button I'll surely use it.

[Anthony Flack]

I think that for any kind of action game, swinging the mouse about and co-ordinating two different sorts of mouse click is a little bit much. I know this because I have recently added mouse support to my game (it doesn't work that well, but no mouse support has become guaranteed commercial suicide in the time since I started making the game) - and I don't think using both buttons works all that well.

Oh well, though. Can't be helped; I need that other button. By the time the damn game is finished the market will have changed so much it'll be totally bloody unsellable. Er - the point is, if I were starting a new game right now, I would do absolutely everything I could to design it around a single button. But I didn't, and I'm not prepared to give up a significant chunk of the gameplay to make it conform at this stage.

[lexaloffle]

..if I were starting a new game right now, I would do absolutely everything I could to design it around a single button.
Woah, easy on there. There is certainly a large, accessible audience for whom mouse control is essential. However, I think the beauty of Cletus is that it is capable of reaching a new crowd of players who don't need mouse control, and are poised to be won over by the right kind of game. It's a risky proposition finding an audience in this way, yes, but it's also risky trying to get exposure in an extremely competative market.

Besides, searching for new audiences helps to break the snow for other developers. If Cletus doesn't draw small armies of previously inert customers out of the fabric of the internet, I'll buy you a beer.

[svero]

I can't imagine Cletus with mouse control. Sounds like a bad idea.

[Anthony Flack]

Calm down, guys. The keyboard and gamepad controls are still intact and fully functional.

The mouse controls work basically the same way as in Best Friends - with a little arrow around the player's avatar. It works, but it's hardly ideal, and not really recommended for serious play at harder settings. But my wife reports that she can "actually almost manage to play it" with the mouse, so there's nothing to lose in being more inclusive.

The point is that I wasn't willing to actually change the game about, to better accomodate the mouse. It's just there as another option, but it is still, at heart, a gamepad game. So I'll still be out there, shovelling that snow.

[Ska Software]

Right-click = Alternate Fire!

...is the Half-life model, which is ironic because it (alternate fire in an FPS) originated with Marathon, a Mac game. However, back in Marathon days, WASD + mouse FPS'ing wasn't common. They used spacebar + option key if I remember correctly.

[Abscissa]

I do believe, however that many macs comes with a multiple-button mouse by default these days. You can also use a third-party multiple-button mouse, but many people don't.
No, the only pack-in mouse Apple ships with their systems is still one-button. But any OS X mac can use a three-button scroll mouse if you plug one in.

[BitBoy]

If you go to apple.com you see that Apple is pushing the Mighty Mouse, which seems to be a mouse with lots of buttons. Is it reasonable to hope that Mac users will adopt this and the idea of multi-button mice? I guess it's too much to ask that Apple starts shipping the Mighty Mouse with all new Macs anytime soon... :rolleyes:

I personally feel a bit limited/frustrated when designing my games if I can only count on one mouse button and keyboard input is a big no-no (at least for casual games). Both my games (one old and one coming up) are using both mouse buttons, as there's only so much you can do with one button. Currently I'm using space as an alternative for the right one, so technically it's possible to play the games with only one button, but it won't be pleasant.

[SteveZ]

Good feedback guys!

A while back I created the title Ballmaster and that requires two mouse buttons: Left click to shoot, Right click to move. It didn't sell that well.

Now, I'm in the same disposition: My next game (For you curious folks, it will involve Cactus Bruce) requires swimming around in a 3D area as well as interacting with creatures, like shooting them for example.

I was thinking of right click to move to the position of the mouse cursor and left click to shoot/interact.

Think this is a good idea?

Regards,
Steve Z.

[Greg Squire]

As BitBoy mentioned, Apple started realizing that lots of their users were replacing the mouse with a MS scroll mouse. So they've introduced the Mighty Mouse (http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/) (which is on their home page today). It's basically a scroll mouse with the scroll whell being replaced by a mini-trackball and the addition of a squeeze control. So the one-button limitation appears that it may eventually go away (not for some time though).

[svero]

EA just released a casual game called Phlynx that relies heavily on right mouse button. I suspect it will be a hit despite that. Will be interesting to watch how it does if it ever gets away from pogo.com

[Bmc]

i wouldn't say it relies on the right mouse button any more then Zuma etc

i watched my gf play it she never used it once, even after i showed it what it could do

she still liked it quite a bit and played it for the full time, and she is one of those who have gotten "sick" of all the matching type games.

[svero]

Well you cant switch to the other firing positions without the rmb. But i guess on the easier skill levels you dont absolutely have to...

- S

[James C. Smith]

This is not important for all downloadable games or all Indie games, but I think it is best to only use one button for casual games. This has nothing to do with making your game work on the Mac. It has to do with how much a casual gamer can easily learn. It is okay to use the second button as a shortcut or optional command. But the core play mechanic of your game should just be a single button mouse control if you want to attract the casual players.

[tentons]

It has to do with how much a casual gamer can easily learn.
I'm not doubting James' sincerity here, but I had to read that sentence twice to make sure it wasn't a joke. Is it that these "casual" folks actually can't learn to press more than one thing at a time, they're too lazy to press more than one thing at a time (worse than blatant stupidity), or is it just a convention that propagates itself as a Truth?

:confused:

[Abscissa]

Hmm, That's the first I've heard about the Mighty Mouse. Looks interesting. Although I have to say, between this and the iPod, I can't stand Apple's (and other companies') recent "trendy" focus on completely eliminating tactile feedback:
Touch-sensitive technology under Mighty Mouse’s seamless top shell detect where you’re clicking, transforming your sleek, one-button mouse into a two-button wonder. But the innovation doesn’t end there Sure sounds like more of a step backwards than forwards to me. Just give me another *real* button...

[Savant]

I'm not doubting James' sincerity here, but I had to read that sentence twice to make sure it wasn't a joke. Is it that these "casual" folks actually can't learn to press more than one thing at a time, they're too lazy to press more than one thing at a time (worse than blatant stupidity), or is it just a convention that propagates itself as a Truth?
If you've ever tried to walk the average office worker through a technical problem, you'll understand what he's talking about. Right clicking, as stupid as this sounds, is something of an advanced skill for a lot of people.

And that's not trying to be insulting or pandering to the casual gamers. It's just reality. I've had to talk my Dad through enough stuff over the phone to know that they are just not adept enough for anything more than the absolute basics.

[Anthony Flack]

I'm just going on my own experience here, but I'm a fairly hardcore game player - and playing my own game with the mouse, I found two mouse buttons is really one button too much. It's doable, but not ideal.

Two buttons is fine when you have one hand pushing the buttons and the other controlling movement. When you're controlling everything with one hand, it can get a little confusing when the action gets intensive.

Your results may vary, of course. Some games will get away with it better than others.

[SteveZ]

Two buttons is fine when you have one hand pushing the buttons and the other controlling movement. When you're controlling everything with one hand, it can get a little confusing when the action gets intensive.



I concur with Anthony. Here is another idea on the table: Instead of right clicking, you press and hold the click mouse button to perform a specific action. Now, the movement becomes left click, moving the mouse, and press & hold right click.

Have anyone ever played a game with that type of mouse movement?

Regards,
Steve Z.

[Sharkbait]

I assume you're not aware of an imminent Mac revolution.. it will change the world as we know it. The (shock! horror!) multi-button mouse for the Mac is here (http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/specs.html)! :)

[edit] Someone's mentioned it.. never mind.. should have scanned the posts better.. my bad.

[Anthony Flack]

I think there's loads of ways you can design a game to cleverly make the most of a single button. I have some ideas I'm keen to try out on this area too... I have a shooter game idea that involves three different ways to fire on one button (that doesn't include the old charge attack, since tap-tap-tapping on a mouse button doesn't really work either - the default fire really needs to be auto-repeating).

Unfortunately, for a platform game where the two buttons are "attack" and "jump", any alternative is likely to be so convoluted that it would be worse than using two buttons.

[James C. Smith]

I'm not doubting James' sincerity here, but I had to read that sentence twice to make sure it wasn't a joke. Is it that these "casual" folks actually can't learn to press more than one thing at a time

I don’t think you get it. This is very series and is not absurd at all. Adding a second mouse button is adding way more than “learn to press more than one thing at a time.” It is asking them to know there are other features that don’t have icons on screen and it potentially double the number of controls because now everything object on screen can be interacted with in two ways. Left click or right click? But the biggest problem is, it is not intuitive. Every user knows that if there is something on the screen they can probably interact with it my putting the cursor over it and clicking the primary mouse button. It is not intuitive to try to figure out which is the proper mouse button to use to interact with the onscreen object.

Designing an intuitive game with intuitive controls is very challenging. If you could stand behind the guy learning to play the game, and tell him tips as he goes, it would be a whole different story. After he played for 3 minutes you could say “you know if you RIGHT click it access your other weapon”. But you don’t get to ship with the game. And people won’t read the manual. Even if you pop-up little tutorial, message people don’t read them. They click as fast as they can to make them go away. It is easy to say, “that’s their own damn fault. If they don’t read they won’t learn my game”. But the reality is, a game will sell much better if it is intuitive. If it uses common metaphors, like clicking on buttons with a muse cursor, then people will just get it right away without the need for you to pop-up message or stand behind them and give them coaching.

If you could some how convince the player that it was important to remember “more than one thing” I am sure they could remember what the function of the right muse button is in your game. But how are you going to grab their attention and let them know about the “one thing” they have to remember. They expect to be “playing” the game within seconds. Interacting with the game should be intuitive and they spend the first few seconds figuring out the goals. There is no time to teach them the controls. They have no patience for that. It should just be obvious right away. It is easy to make single button mouse controls obvious right away. There is no way to do that with two button mouse controls.

[James C. Smith]

Apple’s software has long had great support for multi-button mice. But they don’t require you to lean all the extra buttons.

My understanding is, Apples’ option is that every feature of every application should be accessible with a single mouse button. Using tricks like shift-click is not really a proper solution to simulate a second button. Whatever that shift-click, or second mouse button command is, it should be accessible in a menu bar or tool bar or icon or something like that. Every command in the program should have an obvious interface actable with the primary mouse button. Secondary mouse buttons, or modifier keys with mouse buttons, are just shortcuts to access those same commands that could be access with the primary mouse button.

Now that Apple is making a multi-button mouse, such as the Mighty Mouse, it doe not change anything. I doubt apple will ever ship a multi button mouse with new Macs or certainly not all Macs. It is not intuitive for new users to learn. Even if multi-button mice are available from 3rd parties or Apple themselves, as long as Apple ships their new Macs with single buttons mice, it forces every developer to make sure their application is usable with a single button mouse. This is a good thing. It makes all Mac applications easier to learn to use.

Apple support more buttons, but they force all application designers to make them accessible with a single button.

[tentons]

I don’t think you get it. This is very series and is not absurd at all.
You're right. I suppose I've never empathized with someone totally new to computers because I don't really envision that type of person playing games much. But if we're talking about "soccer moms" then I can see how this would be the case.