Invitation only forum?

[baegsi]

I know, this has been discussed often, sorry if you can't hear it anymore, but I'd like to get your opinion about this. From a different thread:

The only vet who posts here now is John Smith. Posts from Retro64, Dan MacDonald, PomPom, Dexterity, just do not happen anymore.

These forums used to be tightly moderated, but now are under the assumption that if you hold people from posting for 7 days, there are no more problems. Now, there is no moderation whatsoever. It's not the new posters causing problems!I would really love to see how an invitation only forum would look like. Just as an experiment. Open a new forum. Invite only people who are supposed to be "vets". Newbies are allowed to start new threads (I would be too quite otherwise) but not to post answers. Something like "ask the experts". If someone wants to be registered as an expert, his/her application has to be apporved by the admins. Moderation should not be needed, at most very unfrequently.

How would such forum look like? I have no idea, but would love to see it happen.

The plus for all non-vets who can only read: one opportunity to procrastinate less, your game will thank you :)

What do you think?

[Ricardo C]

What makes you think the "vets" will want to stick around to answer questions from newbies, or to talk amongst themselves in a public forum, solely for the benefit of newbies who can't reply?

The forum, as it is right now, offers something for everyone. And even newbies contribute worthwhile content more often than not. Stop trying to build a square wheel.

[Jim Buck]

Is it true that there is no more moderating on here? I think there is moderation, but the moderators themselves aren't making any posts.

[baegsi]

Just to make something clear: I do not intend to offend newbies (I'm one by myself) or something like that. But, every day there's a response like: "you haven't made a game yet, so just be quiet" etc...

Personally, I believe we benefit from all opinions, also from newbies. However, we never know until we tried.

So: don't take this too seriously. My question is: what would you think about such a forum as an experiment?

[HairyTroll]

I can imagine Yahoo, Altavista, Lycos, MSN, Webcrawler, Northernlight & AskJeeves on the hypothetical "Search Engine" forum: "Hey, ignore that newbie Google - what the heck does he know about seach engines anyway?".....

Sometimes the new kid on the block does have all the answers.

[soniCron]

And even newbies contribute worthwhile content more often than not. There are a lot of folks on these forums that would disagree with you. (I, obviously, am not one of those people!)

However, if there was an entire section of private, invite-only forums on this site that was inaccessable (read or write) to uninvited members, I would imagine there might be some very valuable conversations to take place. The bigger guys that only want to have very serious conversations with other professionals could have their way, while others can dually bleed into the public forums. I'd think of it like conversations behind closed doors. Not everyone wants to contend with immature and ignorant banter, but would still like a forum to share their ideas with their peers.

[soniCron]

Is it true that there is no more moderating on here? I can say from a particular experience I had earlier today that there is definitely moderation going on! (Would a lot of you folks liked to have seen me banned? ;))

[Ricardo C]

There are a lot of folks on these forums that would disagree with you. (I, obviously, am not one of those people!)

Oh, I know. I would even bet we're thinking of exactly the same person :D

However, if there was an entire section of private, invite-only forums on this site that was inaccessable (read or write) to uninvited members, I would imagine there might be some very valuable conversations to take place. The bigger guys that only want to have very serious conversations with other professionals could have their way, while others can dually bleed into the public forums. I'd think of it like conversations behind closed doors. Not everyone wants to contend with immature and ignorant banter, but would still like a forum to share their ideas with their peers.

There is already a private forum for people who've actually released products, though. How does your idea differ from it?

[HairyTroll]

The signal to noise ratio on the Dexterity forums was high because:

a) the indie scene was a lot smaller back then, and
b) it was damn difficult to find the forums in the first place

A similar thing happened when hoards of AOL unwashed were unleashed on Usenet back in the '90's. IndieGamer has now appeared on the radar of the AOL of game development, gamedev.net.

[soniCron]

There is already a private forum for people who've actually released products, though. How does your idea differ from it? Oh. There is? Hah! :) Didn't know it! I guess that settles that... I suppose it's hidden from the non-invited folk, eh?

[Ricardo C]

Yeah, you have to request access to one of the admins, and have a published title under your belt. That's pretty much it in the way of entry requisites.

[HairyTroll]

Yeah, you have to request access to one of the admins, and have a published title under your belt.

The first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club.
The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club.

[soniCron]

The first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club.
The second rule of Fight Club is - you DO NOT talk about Fight Club. Hahahahahahahahaha!!! :D ROTFLMAO!!! :D I try to stay away from making totally pointless posts, but that was the damn funniest thing I've heard in months! Thanks for that! :)

[Chris Evans]

Umm, we already have a private forum (search the archives for more details). Though it's not a very chatty board. It's mostly used by established devs that have questions/comments/requests, which they don't want viewable to the general public.

The only vet who posts here now is John Smith. Posts from Retro64, Dan MacDonald, PomPom, Dexterity, just do not happen anymore.

-Retro64 does post semi-regularly (He just made a new topic the other day).
-PomPom (BongPig) has divorced himself from this board because they're headed in a different direction. It really has nothing to do with the quality of the board, IMO.
-Dexterity(Steve P) has pretty much left the shareware game industry entirely. His site is on auto-pilot and he's focusing on public speaking. Again, has nothing to do with this board.
-Dan is probably the only one who's been MIA lately that you listed.
-You didn't mention Svero but he still posts very frequently every day. As does Arcadetown (Brian).

Also, don't ignore some of the newer successful Indies like Gabriel, Cliffski and others. Or some us who are on the fringe of success like me, Jack Norton, Princec and Nexic. ;) What we say might be even more relevant to you than the older vets because we are making headway in the current market conditions.

As for moderation, the board is still being moderated actively even with the waiting period. Everyday we're moving threads to the appropriate forum. Also many times we delete bad posts within 5-10 minutes, which you'll never see. Not quite sure how you got the impression that this forum isn't being moderated.

EDIT: Of course by the time I submitted this post, the private forum question had been addressed. Need to type faster.

[baegsi]

Umm, we already have a private forum (search the archives for more details). Though it's not a very chatty board. It's mostly used by established devs that have questions/comments/requests, which they don't want viewable to the general public.Okay, but the idea would be more something like "ask the experts" where everyone (newbies and vets) can start a thread but only vets can answer. And it would be readable for everyone. That would be the difference.

[Kai Backman]

Ok. I'll delurk for a second. This thread regularly pops up and I think most people miss some pretty fundamental forces at work:

- There are no right answers. I think this is the most important part to understand (and it usually takes the longest). To pick a concrete example, I make a nice profit by advertising using Google Adwords, most people don't. So does it work for you? Find out by yourself ..
- The corollary to the first point is that discussing a topic again and again might actually be pretty productive. If the participants are new to it. When you are just getting into running your own business everything is new. And you might gain a lot of understanding by discussing your current issues with peers in the same situation. So talking for the nth time about Going Indie (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=3953) is very productive for those who are new. And many non-published, non-experienced people might actually have a fresh viewpoint that's much more interesting than the jaded veteran might provide.
- The longer you stay around and the longer you have been running your business the higher the probability that you have either seen the topic discussed a few times already or that your particular situation is just so specialized that what works for you no longer applies to the more general case. But if the thread even remotely affects someones business you can be pretty sure they at least scan it through. That's just plain business sense. And often people delurk and write about their favourite topics and it's always a very interesting read. (Thanks again Brian for the great posts on incentives and nag screens!)

I've been on the forums since fall 2002, a month or so after they started. And I've been working as a full time indie longer, and as a published indie almost as long. I still see a lot of familiar faces from the beginning and a lot of newer faces that are now pretty familiar. I used to have more posts than Cas (and Sonicron).. Today I have very little to contribute. The easy questions are usually answered when I log on, and specialized topics (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=3897) that I know a lot about are rare. I'm pretty solid with my own business strategy, and even if I'm eagerly learning from everyone I no longer have the urgent need to use the forum as a sounding board. But when I can contribute I usually do. And I read or scan most of the topics.

IMHO this is a very mature and working forum. And as a general resource for professional Indie game development (whatever that is) the best one on the net. :D

[Anthony Flack]

Hey, what has happened to Dan, anyway?

[Ricardo C]

Okay, but the idea would be more something like "ask the experts" where everyone (newbies and vets) can start a thread but only vets can answer. And it would be readable for everyone. That would be the difference.

And again, I ask: What's in it for the "vets"? Why would they visit a forum were they couldn't find discussion, just questions for them to answer?

[Nexic]

You can't expect the sucessful ones to spend much of their time helping us, when they have much bigger fish to fry. However they do post and comment when needed. When someone new posts about "What reg system shall I use" or "Can we really make a living out of shareware?" why should they answer? They have answered those questions 100s of times, and most of us know the information to pass it on anyway.

This forum is still very valuable, especially for people needing feedback on their game, or people who want to find out sales stats. It can also be fun discussing varius things.

[ERoberts]

What makes you think the "vets" will want to stick around to answer questions from newbies, or to talk amongst themselves in a public forum, solely for the benefit of newbies who can't reply?


Well, they used to do just that back at the dexterity board. Newbies (and vets) posted questions. Vets replied, newbies didn't (besdides follow up questions and such). Most of the time at least, though you got the occasional exception.


The forum, as it is right now, offers something for everyone. And even newbies contribute worthwhile content more often than not.

I disagree. I don't think the forum have a lot to offer at all, the way it is now, and I would like to see that change, which I guess is why I'm annoying a lot of people, who'd rather keep their little club the way it is.

I also don't agree that newbies contribute worthwhile content more often than not. I think it's the other way around, only very rarely do I think a newbie contribute anything of value. And I'd be happy to sacrifice those occasional nuggets for an overall higher quality.

[Anthony Flack]

Question: Having been around since the Dexterity days, and presumably having covered quite a lot of ground since that time - what sort of information are you looking for?

[princec]

The most important bit about a forum is you don't have to answer.

This forum's still quite invaluable and I'd be bored without it. I look here for TIGsource (http://www.tigsource.com) news (and of course, games to play!) I like to chart the wobbly progress of Puppygames here for people to gloat over. I like to help out the odd Java-toe-in-the-water poster. Everyone's by and large really nice and it's even fun watching Omega, ERoberts and soniCron sniping at each other like a bunch of girls :D

The fact is all the right people are here, and the reason why some people may not be happy with the kinds of discussion that are made here is because the right people don't want to talk about it because they can't be arsed. And that's their prerogative.

Cas :)

[mahlzeit]

If you want to make the forums better, then make high-quality insightful posts and be an example to others. Bitching and whining only invites more bitching an whining. Like I used to say to Ghandi in the old days: "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." :)

[ERoberts]

it's even fun watching Omega, ERoberts and soniCron sniping at each other like a bunch of girls :D

I'm always happy to provide some entertainment value :D after all, that's what this site is all about nowadays.

[ERoberts]

If you want to make the forums better, then make high-quality insightful posts and be an example to others.

That's not a solution though. The problem is that good posts get lost in all the noise. I don't want more high-quality insightful posts, I want less crap posts. I don't believe that will be achieved by me not posting (tried that, doesn't help), and therefore I keep sharing this opinion of mine. Maybe eventually people will listen, and if not, it still feels like I'm trying to do something, rather than just give up on the forum, like some have.

[Jack Norton]

I just want to add a quick opinion:
I do believe that newbies can have something valuable. However, when they say, without having a single game out, that their first one will sell XXX copies and laugh at my comments, I really feel I shouldn't post anymore :D

They can give advice in other field, but what the hell, you CAN'T talk about how many copies you'll sell if you never released a game. I think those have still their mind confused by the triumphant proclamation of Pavlina that could have been true in 1999 but surely not nowadays.

When someone like funpause make a game who sells 50 a day FROM HIS SITE, and someone insist that's just a "nice work", I really wonder why he says that... ;)
When I was making my games USM I had low expectation, like to sell max 20 a month. My first month sold 10, and is still my best one.

Modesty is a virtue who has almost disappeared...

[Didier]

Okay, but the idea would be more something like "ask the experts" where everyone (newbies and vets) can start a thread but only vets can answer. And it would be readable for everyone. That would be the difference.

Wouldn't this seperate the "newbies" and "pros" too much?
If you register on a forum and have a few post (say <100 or so) it doesn't always mean you are an amateur in the field.

There are people here with years of experience in game business but with only a few posts.

That doesn't mean you have to see these people as "they are new here, what do they know about that".

I like these forums very much and for me they are perfect like they are.!
Thumbs up for the guys who pay for all this!

Didier

[Deux]

you dont want to push new users away because you want to form an elitist club/forum.

A newbie to the forum, can still possibly create a game and sell it, at what point is he indoctrinated into the club/forum.

If you seperate users, you split the community. This reminds me of the jocks in school.

[princec]

Like any social group that matures, ordinary human behaviour is the driving force for what that group gets up to! You can't do anything about it, so just go with the flow. I don't see any noise posts in the forum, ever.

Cas :)

[ERoberts]

Separating newbies and pros is a GOOD thing. There's already a natural separation (experience) and it's better to keep that separation than try to hide or ignore it!

And by newbies, I mean people new to independent game making, not new to the messageboard.


Hey, Jack, remember when you where new here? I think your first post was about your game (USM) not selling very well, and you got loads of good solid advice from people with experience selling their game :-) I remember you posting a lot when you were new, but at least it was mostly questions, not opinions about things you didn't have experience in. I've noticed you post a lot less now, but with higher quality posts! And THAT's a good thing!

[Nexic]

Separating newbies and pros is a GOOD thing. There's already a natural separation (experience) and it's better to keep that separation than try to hide or ignore it!

Maybe if people who are experienced gave a link to their site the from of a signature. Maybe then people could judge how much their advice is worth form what they can tell about that person's games and website?

I don't actually know what part you play in the indie scene ERoberts, but it sounds like you at least have some experience. Perhaps you should leave links in your signature as well?

[Nikster]

At least this place hasn't be /.'ed yet, or has it ? I found when any kind of forums hits /. it really does end up in chaos.

[ERoberts]

I don't actually know what part you play in the indie scene ERoberts, but it sounds like you at least have some experience. Perhaps you should leave links in your signature as well?

I play no significant part at all, have no experience and no game released. Wouldn't even post if it wasn't the case that "opinion-only" posts are both generally considered acceptable AND the most common type of post.

[Escotia]

I'm not sure about invites or the seven day lurk, but I'd like to see a limit on the number of posts that newbies can make in a day. It seems those with the highest ppd generally have the least to say and with so many posts, each one is of *extremely* low quality (read noise).

If instead of being almost 12 per day it was 2 a day they might not only be more considered, but the more experienced devs might feel like they can post without being 'drowned out' by n00b noise.

Maybe some common sense from people would help? Look at your ppd. If it's in double figures and you don't know what you're talking about - you are posting too often!

[Nexic]

Maybe some common sense from people would help? Look at your ppd. If it's in double figures and you don't know what you're talking about - you are posting too often!

I think most people feel that they do know what they are talking about, whether they actually do or not.

[svero]

Post per day count based on the months you've been a member might be worth looking into. People defeinitely dont value you thier posts. Ive seen lots of 2-3 line posts to tell someone that they cant help. Whats the point of that?

- S

[ERoberts]

Yes, that's a good idea actually!

I suspect those useless posts are because people want to just be noticed as part of the "comminity", or just to up their post count.

I don't like the idea of this being a community, I think there's better places for communities, but I think I might be in the minority on that...

[ERoberts]

I wouldn't even mind a quite strict system, say you're only allowed to post 1 reply per thread per day, and no more than say 5 replies in total per day. I'd be happy to have this apply across the board, vets as well as newbies. This would slow things down a bit, I think, and stop some of the flamewars that so easily break out. This would make people a lot more careful about when they write, I think, if not about what they write.

[Savant]

While I see the attraction to that sort of system, the first time it bites you in the butt because you have the answer to a problem you've been working through for someone but can't post it until tomorrow because you've hit your limit - well, that won't be fun. It'll suck for you because you want to help and it'll suck for the person waiting on the response because they're still stuck.

I suppose you could just PM it to the person in question but then that doesn't help the board in general because it doesn't go into the searchable archives.

I think that sort of limit might work as long as it's lifted at some point. Say, after 6 months you are free to do as you please. If someone is trained for 6 months to limit what they post, that should carry into the future.

[ERoberts]

small price to pay for the kind of benefits you'd get, I think.

I would be fine with it not ever being lifted, because it is not really that big a deal if you lose the occasional post...

[Black Hydra]

This is the way I see it:

1) A forum, by nature is not a perfect resource system for information. Books and articles serve that far more effectively. A forum tends to excel mostly in the area of discussion and the ability to share information, ask questions and view opinions.

2) I think that anyone here for a little while can clearly separate the noobs from the experts. The website you have showcases the games you've made and is basically like your resume. I don't know what experience you guys have but ERoberts, Omega and Robert (whose website says work in progress) do not have links in their sig. It seems that this isn't a group of veterans attacking some of the more outspoken noobs, but other noobs (unless someone says otherwise).

3) These forums in general are very well maintained and professional. There are a few personal disagreements, but for the large part everyone keeps themselves in line. We can all exercise some restraint to help improve them more, but having a forum that has no noise and is only useful answers posted by veterans is completely idealistic.

4) If you want a more professional forum with veterans you can always sign up for the ASP. From what I have heard they are and continue to be an excellent resource base and are full of helpful veterans.

5) I think that as noobs we should try to show some restraint when voicing our opinions. However, I don't believe that simply because my game isn't finished I have no right to say anything, otherwise you'd soon find this would be a very lonely forum.

Well thats my 2 cents, I might as well post it before this thread hits 4 or 5 pages and is locked.

[Rod Hyde]

To complicate matters, the word "noob" can mean many things.

As a programmer, I'm far from being a noob. I've been a programmer in one form or another for 16 years (not counting the time before I got a job), so in that respect I have a lot of experience. If someone asks a question that I can answer based on my technical experience then I'll try to answer it. Ditto if anyone asks something UNIX-related.

But in the context of publishing games then I'm definitely a noob. I haven't published anything, so of course I am not going to give answers that relate to my experience because I have none. I'm going to shut up and listen to what the qualified people have to say.

There are people in these forums who have experience in areas where I don't. Many of them are willing and able to talk about it. I find those sorts of contributions invaluable and a major reason why I visit these forums.

--- Rod

[HairyTroll]

These forums are not a Wiki, and that's a good thing.

[Fry Crayola]

Hello. I'm a newb. That is to say I'm a guy who has yet to release his game (heck, it's still got ages left to go), a guy who has no experience whatsoever to draw on and as such if someone asks a question, if I can offer anything at all it will only be my opinion.

And because I don't have an incredible superiority complex, I know there's a very good chance a lot of those opinions are wrong. And I also know that when I've made a post that had inaccuracies, someone has come along and spun me round to face the right direction. It's the same in any field, at any time in history. A newbie has his own thoughts, but the experienced people take him by the hand and say "I know it seems like that should be how it works, but in actual fact...." and an explanation, sometimes counterintuitive, other times blatantly simple, is doled out with a helpful smile. And the newb learns.

I'm that newb, and I'm learning. The fewer mistakes I make come the final release, the better. I just try hard to ensure that when I do offer my opinion, I make it explicitly clear that it's nothing more than my own thoughts, or my own viewpoint. I never put anything down in gospel unless I know it to be absolute fact. I think I succeed in this respect.

Without these forums, I'd know nothing. But without the flowing conversational style system in place in many topics, I'd have learned less than half of what I have. And if I ever do finish this sodding game, I'll be only too happy to pass on whatever experiences I have to the next lot, just as I think the best posters do here. I think there's a great bunch of some of the most helpful folk around here.

And while it may sometimes seem like a fine idea to restrict a newbie to posting topics only, sometimes we don't even know the question.

[baegsi]

For me, this discussion shows that this forum is really something special. What I learnt is:

* people really do care about it
You can't expect the sucessful ones to spend much of their time helping us, when they have much bigger fish to fry. However they do post and comment when needed. When someone new posts about "What reg system shall I use" or "Can we really make a living out of shareware?" why should they answer? They have answered those questions 100s of times, and most of us know the information to pass it on anyway.* made it clear to me that without newbies, this forum could not work, simply because there wouldn't be much to talk about

And hopefully, nobody ever quits his job just because of what was said on a forum, regardless how experienced the posters are.

[Black Hydra]

The purpose of these forums, in my mind, is not to serve as a database of information but rather as a place to ask questions and recieve help and to share our knowledge and discuss issues relevant to us.

Perhaps if someone wanted to create a thread that had a listing of several of the major threads with information in them stickied in the forum people who simply wanted to read the best information without the community aspect could reap the benefits of the information given.

[Jim Buck]

Something definitely changed within the past couple weeks in the area of how many new posts are being made each day. I don't know if it's a sudden influx of new people (that's my guess, though) or something else. Maybe this site did get /.'ed? Before a couple weeks ago, when I hit "New Posts" first thing in the morning, it was like 15-20.. now it's almost 30 (sometimes more).

[Nexic]

/.'ed

Can someone explain to me what this means?

I for one have been posting a lot the last couple of days. Usually I make maybe 1 post per day when I'm doing lots of work, but I'm currently having a rest from doing Desperate Space, so I've got more free time to ramble.

[Savant]

/. = www.slashdot.org

Try reading the comments for any random news entry - and then weep openly for the future of man.

[soniCron]

Couple of observations:

It's noobs primarily complianing about noob posts. I think I've heard maybe 1-2 vets complain.
What part about not having released a game means a noob is full of crap and opinion shouldn't be shared?

They may be very skilled at programming.
They may be very skilled at marketing.
They may be very skilled at graphic design.
They may be very skilled at audio design.

Show me some of these noob messages that are clearly coming from ignorance and offer nothing to the people who follow this board. Stop talking about it and show me! I've seen zero examples of all this cancer that's apparently growing on the forums! Lots of bitching, but nothing to show for it! :mad: I'm not talking about posts you disagree with, I'm talking about noobs that are offering their opinion and are clearly wrong.

[baegsi]

/. = www.slashdot.org
Try reading the comments for any random news entry - and then weep openly for the future of man.However, I do find they solved the problem with score-threshold and first post comment deletion quite well.

[Dan MacDonald]

Hey, what has happened to Dan, anyway?

I'm on a brief sabbatical, I went and overworked myself in the mobile games space, got really burned out on games. I should be back shortly however, maybe within the week if I can get this stupid game shipped :)

In my journies (chuckle) I have learned new things about new markets and different aspects of the indie game business. I'll make some new posts when everything settles down and I have time to engage in some good forum discussions.

[Kai Backman]

Wow.. Dan did the Derek S .. Oh no .. Don't say it .. :D

[ERoberts]

Show me some of these noob messages that are clearly coming from ignorance and offer nothing to the people who follow this board. Stop talking about it and show me!

http://forums.indiegamer.com/search.php?do=finduser&userid=1399 :D

[ERoberts]

soniCron: seriously though, why do you mind a limited posting allowance? Is it REALLY that important to you to share your opinion on EVERY topic? Wouldn't it be ok to just choose a few threads each day to post into?

admins/moderators: would it be possible to remove the post count that is displayed next to persons name? It doesn't serve any purpose, and I suspect some people might post just to get their post count up (at least I've seen that on other forums).

[soniCron]

http://forums.indiegamer.com/search...ser&userid=1399 :D As soon as I hit "Send" on that message, I knew this would be the reply. ;)


soniCron: seriously though, why do you mind a limited posting allowance? Is it REALLY that important to you to share your opinion on EVERY topic? Wouldn't it be ok to just choose a few threads each day to post into? Here are a few reasons why I mind a posting allowance:

They've got the question. You've got the answer. But you can't share it until tomorrow, because you used up your posting allowance asking for clarification.
There exists a really handy "Ignore" feature that anyone is free to use on any forum members they feel aren't contributing valuable information.
There wouldn't be much place for the "General Chat" forum, would there?
It seems you desire this feature to keep my posts at a minimum, not the populace as a whole. And for that, there is the "Ignore" feature.

On that last note, I'd like to add that the only folks that seem to mind my posting as frequently as I do are you and your little bandits. The opposition has been constrained to the amateur/inexperienced end of the spectrum thus far, and according to you, their opinions don't matter anyway. Several of the more successful veterans appreciate my contribution to these forums, so if we're weighing and balancing... But, if I got an overwhelming response from forum members, and especially the veterans, to keep my mouth shut, you can bet your buns I would. Any takers?


admins/moderators: would it be possible to remove the post count that is displayed next to persons name? It doesn't serve any purpose, and I suspect some people might post just to get their post count up (at least I've seen that on other forums). Interesting thought, though I can't think of a single soul on these forums that post just to get their post count up. I think that's something that was left behind when we graduated from GameDev.net. Of course, I could be overestimating our audience, but I don't think so.

[Andy]

But, if I got an overwhelming response from forum members, and especially the veterans, to keep my mouth shut, you can bet your buns I would. Any takers?


Can't consider myself as veteran but any way:

Sure Daniel. Could you please SHUT UP? At least a little bit? :)

[Anthony Flack]

High post counts are an embarassment, more than anything... hey SoniCron, if you're posting at double the rate of me and my big mouth, perhaps you do have issues...

Well, I'm sure things will seem better when Dan returns with his fresh insights - glad to hear you're still about, Dan, and, um, get well soon, or whatever it is you say to burned out programmers.

[Diragor]

I think is a great forum and a valuable resource for indie game developers (as fas as I can tell, not really being one myself). I don't want to see this place become a zoo, but I don't really think there's a problem and I'd hate to see it become too selective about its visitors. Honestly, I probably don't even belong here. I have no business giving advice in most cases because I haven't successfully created and sold anything myself, and I shouldn't waste anybody's time asking questions because I'm still more of a student of game development than an active participant. However, I've learned some things here, I've offered my two cents when I thought I had something worthwhile to say, and I think I've done more good than harm overall (if I've done either).

This seems like a very self-involved post :), but I guess my point is that there's a big gray area where it's hard to draw the line for who belongs here. I'd hate to see a lot of well-meaning, interested but inexperienced people shut out.

[Sillysoft]

I think that this is a great forum, although it is not perfect (nothing is). I do find myself noticing that there seem to be more "opinion-only" posts from people with little direct experience releasing games. I don't think that this is 100% bad, but I do think there are some people who post their "opinion-only" posts too much. I much prefer reading information based on experience, rather then opinion (feedback threads excepted). I can't understand how some people without released games seem to post in every thread that I read. I don't pay as much attention to these posts as to posts from people with released games, and I bet that many other people do the same.

I also think that these forums are more helpful to people with released games (or who are releasing games in the next few months), then to people who are still making their first game. The only way to really learn a lot of stuff is to go through it yourself. Especially if your game is not a casual puzzle game you may find that not everything you read here works for your specific situation. So please, go and finish your games and then share your real life experiences with us. People will take your words more seriously once you have a game out, and you will also learn more by reading the forums through your more experienced eyes.

[Kai Backman]

I can't understand how some people without released games seem to post in every thread that I read.

Those two things might be related. The busier you are working, the higher your threshold for posting. I usually post when I'm off (like on a Satruday) .. :)

[baegsi]

Regarding high posts per pay count: compare this to a normal face-to-face conversation in group a people. How do you find it if someone talks all the time and has always all the answers? Regardless of the value of his opinions?

And furthermore: how in the world do you get anything done? Heck, I find that I'm already spending way to much time on forums. I know that my visits here are 50% valuable but also 50% just procrastination.

And sonicron, another thing: you seem to have a lot of creativity, but please don't make too much use of red colos, bold fonts, underline etc. This is considered shouting, and not polite. Your voice is as important as any others, no need to stress it so much.

Okay, I'm not an admin but talked like one, I just wanted to throw in some points to think about. Nothing personal here.

[Abscissa]

ERoberts:

1. A message board, by it's very nature, is not a reference. That's just how things are. Learn to live with it.

2. High user count and high visibility = lower signal to noise ratio. That's also just the way things are, deal with it.

Trying to force it to be otherwise is akin to scolding water for being too wet.