Is Torque Good For Indie Development

[Davaris]

Hi Guys,
I was wondering if anyone here has used it? What do you think of it? I was thinking of using it for my next game because I'm hoping it will speed up development and improve sales.

[soniCron]

I was wondering if anyone here has used it? What do you think of it? The search feature (http://forums.indiegamer.com/search.php?) is a beautiful (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=1799) tool (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=88).

[sparkyboy]

Well I bought Torque about three years ago under the mistaken illusion that I could actually do TRUE 3D stuff!!! :p

Guess what....Not a bleedin' chance!!!! :rolleyes:

From what I've read from various forums it doesn't seem to be the most intuitive tool to use,even in capable hands! :p

And since the licence seems to be non-transferrable it looks like 100 bucks down the proverbial drain!! :(

Ahh well live and learn I suppose!

All the best


Mark.

P.S.
If I'm wrong and it is transferrable,I'd swap it for a PTK licence(here's hoping) or a sound collection(but I'd be open to offers)!!Sigh.

[Davaris]

Are you able to bypass Torque's scripting system? I have a game engine that uses its own script engine and I don't want to start from scratch.

[Ricardo C]

If you have programming experience, then I think Torque could suit you. If you're more of a beginner, I'd recomment 3D GameStudio (www.conitec.net/a4info.html). Visually, it can go toe-to-toe with Torque, but it's script-based, which makes programming on it much easier.

The only caveat is that none of the editions short of the $900 "Pro" one allow the user to disable checksum verification on the end product, so it's something to be aware of if you intend to distribute your game via portals that use DRM wrappers.

[Davaris]

The only caveat is that none of the editions short of the $900 "Pro" one allow the user to disable checksum verification on the end product, so it's something to be aware of if you intend to distribute your game via portals that use DRM wrappers.

Interesting. There's always a hidden catch isn't there.

[Laser Lou]

Technically, you can bypass Torque's scripting system, but that requires modifying the C++ source code.

[Laser Lou]

I've used Torque; I think its great. It has a fairly high learning curve, but it translates to time saved in development. The scripting system is reasonably simple, and its C++ source code is moderately complex. There is a lot of information available in Garage Game's website, but its scattered all over the place.

This might seem obvious, but a game in Torque is basically a matter of modding it. Its really a working game, not a 3d toolkit.

[Davaris]

Hmmm... I'll tell you what I have in mind and you can tell me what you think. I've made a 2D RPG engine (which is very heavy on the stats) written in C++ and I want to upgrade it to isometric 3D.

I don't want to write a 3D engine myself, I just want to use my game engine to tell Torque to do general things like create a creature, move the creature to location x, open a door, shoot a gun, tell a creature to die, etc.

Of course I can't use their script system because I wouldn't be able to use my engine's AI (which has its own script system). So what I want to do is call the functions the Torque scripts call without using the Torque scripts. I guess this probably isn't possible without it turning into a huge mess.

A lot of people have said they've tried using Torque and gave up because it wouldn't let them do what they wanted to do. I don't want to drop $100 just to find out I can't use it either.

[milieu]

Take a look at Garage Games' RTS Starter Kit (http://www.garagegames.com/products/54). It uses a customized version of the Torque engine to provide an overhead/isometric type view, along with a bunch of special functions specifically for RTS games. It should be pretty easy to adapt the engine to work for a RPG...what's an RPG except an RTS with fewer units? ;0

Don't know what to tell you about the scripting. I expect you'd have to either adapt your scripts to torque, or code a plugin to torque to read your scripts. However, I suspect this will be the case no matter what engine you use.

Another thing you could try is getting the book, 3D Game Programming All in One (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/159200136X/104-3501629-4074349). The book is specifically about using and modifying the Torque engine, and has a compiled version of the torque engine included on the CD that comes with the book. This would allow you to check out the engine before you paid for it. I was able to find this book at my local library, so I didn't even have to pay for the book. ;)

[Aldacron]

Josh Ritter integrated Torque with Python for his game Minions of Mirth (http://www.prairiegames.com/). Anything you want to do with Torque is possible. This has been demonstrated not only by the GG guys. through projects such as the Torque Shader engine (next gen of Torque, built on top of the same foundation), but also through several games and tool projects from Torque users (Torque2D is built on top of stock Torque). A license gets you the full source, so the sky's the limit.

The problem is the learning curve. It's a temendous time investment to become intimate enough with Torque to do all of those things. It's not a plug-n-play, blackbox graphics engine like Ogre or Irrlicht, it's a full on game framework with the makings of a demo game built in to it. The code is covoluted, the subsystems tightly coupled, and there's a ton of things going on in the bowels of the engine. Wading through all of that requires you to be comfortable with C++ and fairly well versed in (or able to easily pick up on) the different technologies the engine brings together.

Torque is a powerful tool once you've mastered it, but the journey is a long one. If you don't have the time to invest up front, I wouldn't recommend it. You might be better off with other solutions that are easier to get up to speed with. But if you don't mind taking a few months getting intimate enough with codebase to make it do what you want, I'd say go for it. The next version of Torque (1.4) will introduce some much needed refactoring, so once that is released it may be easier to get things going.

[kevryan]

I'm using Torque Game Engine (TGE) and haven't had any problems. For me it was fairly straightforward to use although it took quite a while to get familar with all its various aspects. For my game development needs it gets the job done.

I also have the shader engine (TSE) and 2D engine (T2D), but haven't looked at them yet.

Some people have replaced/supplemented Torque scripting with Python. Not sure how hard it was. I'm pretty sure there are either posts or resources about how they did it on the GG forums.

[Laser Lou]

You can do that in Torque; calling script commands using C++, and vice-versa. It wouldn't be a trivial to integrate an AI engine, but it shouldn't be too difficult. Besides, its all code. There is a lot of boilerplate code that you'd need that is written in Torquescript. You'd want to use that, but you can still use C++ too. Whatever approach you take, you'd need to learn the Torquescript part well. The book "3D Game Programming All in One" would help a lot in learning Torquescript and its boilerplate code.

The artwork, 3d models, animations, buildings, textures, etc., would be a BIG factor in such a game, so you'd want to think about who or where you'll get the art help from. Please don't underestimate it. The artwork would probably be a bigger effort than the programming part, but you might be able to recruit artists once you have a game that they can play.

[Jack Norton]

Try torque ONLY if you're an experienced programmer, and have a full team of programmer. You can come out with a commercial looking game in about 2-3 years with a good team.
Or you can buy PTK and do alone one game every two month and make good money :D

(look at funpause Atlantis game, not mine!).

[revve]

Torque is a very powerfull tool, but unless you spend a lot of time learning it, your game will be nothing more than a mod of one of their default "template" games. Once you are over the very long, difficult, not-very-well documented and steep learning curve, you can create just about anything. There's a lot of examples, both by GarageGames and third-party developers that proves this.

The problem with Torque, IMHO is that GarageGames advertises that it's very easy to create spectacilar games in Torque by only modifying a couple of scripts, which is unfortunately not the case. (It's true for Torque2D, however). You need a lot of C++ experience to do anything usefull.

Torque2D on the other hand is an amazing tool. Where the learning curve on Torque itself is like climbing Mt Everest while blindfolded, without a guide and having to carry all your equipment on your back, learning Torque2D is like going over a speedbump in a big, expensive SUV. You hardly notice it's there.

T2D comes with a great tutorial that shows you how to do almost everything (you build a side-scroller shooter), and you have to do hardly anything with the C++ source itself. Most T2D developers will simply have to recompile the source to change the default icon of the app.

To answer the question asked by the original poster - it is possible to create a good indie game, with torque, with the right preparation. With T2D, it's very, very easy to do this.


Edit: In my experience, Jack Norton's comment applies to Torque2D (their 2D-only engine, which I believe most people here will be more interested in than the 3D engine) as well. In a couple of months, with a few good artists, you can create a kick-ass game.

Edit 2: One thing that bothers me with all the Torque engines is it's very, very difficult to add DRM to it. I was going to modify the C++ source to add a object the TorqueScript can access that'll make Armadillo available for me to use, but since the compiled scripts are no better than the raw scripts, you might as well not bother - you'll pretty much be able to bypass it with notepad. This is why all GarageGames' games have a trial version and a separate downloadable registered version.

This is the reason I'm currently looking at alternatives, even though I'm halfway through creating a game with T2D.

[patrox]

P.S.
If I'm wrong and it is transferrable,I'd swap it for a PTK licence(here's hoping) or a sound collection(but I'd be open to offers)!!Sigh.

I will offer a $100 discount on PTK to any Torque 2D/3D owner/switcher.
Just drop me an email if interested.

It's not chrismas but almost!
patrice.

[Robert Cummings]

This might seem obvious, but a game in Torque is basically a matter of modding it. Its really a working game, not a 3d toolkit.

And here's the problem (my problem included) it's marketed heavily as a complete game making solution - it's clearly stated at every opportunity that you can make the game of your dreams with ease - any kind of game.

Thats actually true, but it's also true if you pick up a copy of C++ and a book on OpenGL. And you might as well with how much learning you need to do.

I don't begrudge them for turning coin and doing business, but thats the flaw a lot of people are having. They look at the demo, try the multiplayer and come away very impressed and buy it. Once they realise that they really do need to know the engine inside-out and document everything to see how it works together, it's possible to think "well I might as well made my own engine".

I don't have it in for GG, far from it. Some people there like Joe Maru, josh and melv are nice guys, but others will rip you to shreds. I went onto their chat channel and every question I asked was replied to with the mantra: "code it yourself". I mean even if I said "how do I..." the answer was always "look in the documentation". There's no documentation. Actually there is, but it's scattered all over the place. You have to do a lot of work yourself.

People like Joe were very helpful in contrast and if I had a question about the art pipeline, he was cool enough to give me advice. So for me, the problem with torque is you get what you pay for. If you pay $100, DONT expect support - there's none coming. You'll have to rely on their forums and thats very difficult. The path of torque is simply this: it's very difficult when you get to the heart of it and want to make something other than what it is: tribes 2.

If you're doing 2D, then Torque 2D is actually entirely script based and does a lot of the work. I enjoyed using T2D quite a bit and they were very helpful. I had to leave it because there's no way it works well with C++ - you can't use it as a framework. You get the source though so it's technically possible. I wanted stable DX7 that was fast for windows, and opengl for mac so it wasn't possible to continue using the EA version I had as I had a couple of concerns. But worth checking out nonetheless.

[Jack Norton]

Edit: In my experience, Jack Norton's comment applies to Torque2D (their 2D-only engine, which I believe most people here will be more interested in than the 3D engine) as well. In a couple of months, with a few good artists, you can create a kick-ass game.

Looking forward to see a kick-ass game made with Torque2D, for now I don't see any and it's out since february... 2 months have passed already ;)

[Robert Cummings]

That gold rush game on real is made in T2D.

[MrPhil]

Looking forward to see a kick-ass game made with Torque2D, for now I don't see any and it's out since february... 2 months have passed already ;)

Thread about Gold Fever and Argus Teaches Multiplication Facts (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=3680&highlight=T2D)

[MrPhil]

First a couple disclaimers: I haven’t published a title yet, and I’ve volunteered to do some documentation work for GarageGames. That said, this is the way I see your position.

You can spend lots of time learning someone else's game engine (Torque) or lots of time making your own engine.

I’ve switch back and forth a few times, but I keep going back to Torque because:


I want to make games more than a game engine. I think making a game engine would be awesome, but I only have so much time and making games would be way more awesome.
By learning Torque I’m investing in an engine that is being continuously improved by others
It is cross-platform, this means they’ve already dealt with that headache and if you ask the successful guys around here and they’ll tell you Mac users are 40-60% of their customers
The community has a great spirit of helping each other out, it is truly is wonderful
It has several published games under its belt, which means it is getting much better ‘testing’ than any homebrew ever will. (Including 2 on Xbox now!)
You get the FREAKING source code, which means you have all the power starting from scratch plus the work other people have done that you can learn from and expand on
You’re tapping into an already educated modder community
It is so easy to install and get running. I’ve put the demo on several different machines and the hardest things I’ve had to do it update the OpenGL drivers on a couple old computers at my day job’s office
It is only $100 to start and includes the source. That's the best deal I've seen for a game engine.

If you do decided to go the Torque route I HIGHLY recommend you start with T2D. It much simpler to work with and everything you learn will help you understand TGE and TSG better for use down the road. Before T2D came out I struggled a lot trying to understand TGE, but now that I’ve worked with T2D I understand everything so much better.

People have been complaining about documentation since GarageGames started, but I have found that searching the forums and posting question there leads to most answers. Also, GarageGames is working hard behind the scenes putting together a new and separate documentation area called TDN (Torque Documentation Network or something like that.)

[soniCron]

You can spend lots of time learning someone else's game engine (Torque) or lots of time making your own engine. I think it boils down to a simple decision. Which is easier?

Tying your own knots.
Untying someone else's knots.


People have been complaining about documentation since GarageGames started, but I have found that searching the forums and posting question there leads to most answers. You know what? If I paid $100 to get something and wouldn't be getting decent support from the team, I had better get some f***ing good documentation!! Relying on the community to provide assistance is one thing, but relying on them for everything is a sick business model, and certainly something I'd never support. It's amateur and just plain lazy.

[MrPhil]

You know what? If I paid $100 to get something and wouldn't be getting decent support from the team, I had better get some f***ing good documentation!! Relying on the community to provide assistance is one thing, but relying on them for everything is a sick business model, and certainly something I'd never support. It's amateur and just plain lazy.

I can understand feeling that way. I think the documentation problems are just one of the places that they didn't execute so well, are aware of it and are trying to fix it. I also think that it is something that happens all over the software industry. Just one of those quirks of being programmers, we tend to see code AS the documentation.

Luckily we have choices.

Cheers :)

[Abscissa]

I have Torque 2D and I love it. But, I probably won't be using it for any commercial releases until it supports D3D7, which is unfortunately one of their lowest priorities right now. I can't really comment on the other Torque engines.

[GameStudioD]

I've made a 2D RPG engine (which is very heavy on the stats) written in C++ and I want to upgrade it to isometric 3D.

Use OGRE, http://www.ogre3d.org, a 3D rendering engine that should integrate with your current game engine very nicely. Torque does not sound like the solution you are looking for.

[Screwball]

Yes, Unfortunaly both T2D and TGE have driver issues as well

By that I mean there are a lot of machines that won't run Torque at all. And I'm not talking all old machines, some of the newer ATi cards won't run TGE/T2D but will run TSE.

[MrPhil]

Relying on the community to provide assistance is one thing, but relying on them for everything is a sick business modelI think one way to look at GarageGames and Torque is sort of like an Open Source Project. Or maybe a better word would be a Closed Source Project. For $100 you get the source, access to all the community and their resources, and you help pay a handful of people to work full time on improving the technology.

[Geom]

Yes, Unfortunaly both T2D and TGE have driver issues as well

By that I mean there are a lot of machines that won't run Torque at all. And I'm not talking all old machines, some of the newer ATi cards won't run TGE/T2D but will run TSE.

I am thinking about using Torque (3D) for a game. Can you elaborate on this? How bad are we talking here?

I remember reading a post mortem of the development of Rocket Bowl (sp?), which used Torque, and I remember they mentioned that during beta/testing they saw more video driver issues than they anticipated. But they didn't really single out Torque as being at fault.

Geom

[Ciperl]

This is why all GarageGames' games have a trial version and a separate downloadable registered version.


You forget that games like Rocketbowl Plus only have one download which has an unlock key for the full version.

[Ciperl]

Yes, Unfortunaly both T2D and TGE have driver issues as well

By that I mean there are a lot of machines that won't run Torque at all. And I'm not talking all old machines, some of the newer ATi cards won't run TGE/T2D but will run TSE.

What kind of driver issues? Torque has one of the most powerful card profiling system around. It just takes the developer to tweak the profiling system for their game. If developers choose to take shortcuts, there will always be problems no matter what engine or platform you use.

[Screwball]

There have been a number of people that have had driver issues, both now and in the past. As an example, T2D runs fine and dandy on my laptop but on my normal PC it doesn't run at all, and I'm talking both the SDK and the demo's on the GG site. There have been many cases in the past with this with 90% of the time a "Upgrade the drivers" solution works. However with my PC's case this hasn't worked, and neither has different drivers. My PC is:

AMD 64bit 3500
ATi x800 Raedon
2 GB Ram
DirectX 9.0c
Catalyst Driver Version 5.5 - 5.6 - 5.7

And still SOL. Not what you would really call a old PC either. The logs on the program as well basicly say no DirectX device and no OpenGL device found. The Shader Engine works a treat though, and if I was going to do a 3D game I would take look at this as it's graphics pipeline is based on Direct X and seems to me to be more graphic card friendly.