Going Indie

[overture]

For quite some time I've thought of getting into game programming. I've done some very small games, I've worked with higher level 3D frameworks, and for the most part I feel confident in being able to pump out some decent casual games without too much difficulty.

I'm wondering how viable it is these days to earn a living soley from indie game development. I'd start off part time, of course, but there would have to be an option down the road to go full time.

I'm fairly adept at programming quickly (I've placed highly in international contests), so I think it would be perfectly reasonable to generate at least a handful of games a year.

I guess the question is: can you make a decent living off 4-7ish games a year, or should I look into a better paying job, leaving game development as just a hobby? (assuming no extraordinary luck / bad luck).

Could anyone give some # of sales / price figures for games they've sold so I can get a better idea?

Thanks in advance

[luggage]

The hit games sell enough for you to make a living off it. You'd have to consider what you're going to do about art though. It's becoming increasingly difficult to compete with casual games on an art basis unless you're know someone (or talented yourself).

[Nexic]

I guess the question is: can you make a decent living off 4-7ish games a year, or should I look into a better paying job, leaving game development as just a hobby? (assuming no extraordinary luck / bad luck).

If you make 7 games in a year part time then I'm willing to bet those games won't be of very high quality ^.^

Anyway, as luggage said you can live off of it, but it will probably take years before you get to that stage. I have been going full time at this for a year and half now (I never did it part time), and I'm still not making enough to support myself (but starting to get close now).

Having said that when I started I was making very poor games, because before I started trying to sell them I only did it as a hobby, and never really made anything 'finished' before. If you are already good at making and finishing games then you could probably be making money faster than I did.

[ERoberts]

Some advice: you'll get a lot of replies to that post, because a lot of people have opinions on this subject.

Be careful to find out who the poster is and their past experience in this field, before considering their advice, as most probably don't know more than yourself about it.

No offense meant to anyone (it is not in any way directed to the previous posters in this thread), just a bit of friendly advice (and yeah, the same advice can be given about THIS advice, but it'd still be the same advice :-) )

I don't have any first hand experience in making games that I sell myself, so I won't give advice on it, but not all people are that considerate.

[patrox]

If you make 7 games in a year part time then I'm willing to bet those games won't be of very high quality ^.^


Ask funpause how long it took them to write atlantis ;)
( ok ok they cheat, they use the prolific ptk game engine (http://www.phelios.com/ptk) )

pat.

[Nexic]

Are funpause one person? Do they do it part time?

[stealth]

If you ever need any bitmap graphics, send me an e-mail at

[leon at leon brown creations dot com] << change 'at' to '@', 'dot' to '.' and delete spaces

I can make your game look professional :)

I will send you samples of my design portfolio

[Reactor]

Now now, there's no such thing as cheating.

A bit pricey that engine though, isn't it?

[baegsi]

Here's probably a little different advice. I'm a java developer, 4+ years experience. I love games. I started with mobile game development together with an old friend. Set up shop, made business contacts, had some prospects. I put a hell of work into writing games, had a lot to learn. Had some highs, a lot of downs. Mobile business is, I suppose(!), slightly more complicated than casual games for indie developers, but this doesn't really matter, it's still game development. After ~2 years we decided to change course. I figured following out: more than developing games I wanted to have a successful business. And there're, that's what I'm currently finding out, much better businesses for small teams.

However, I still develop games. But my business model changed: I want to become financial independet first before I go into fulltime inde game dev.

Some few points to consider for you (all very biased):

Games are real time applications. Meaning: one of the hardest software to develop. Even if you are a good programmer, that's a tough nut to crack.
Games need polish, more than most other software. You won't need a musician and 3d artist to develop a business app. You can do it by yourself, but this triples your effort
4-7 quality games/year is completly unrealistic for one person, even if you are already familiar with games.
Games, no matter what you do, are - in terms of development time - expensive to develop. When you sit on your game for 6-18 months, calculate what that's worth. If you want to run a business, think about what your ROI is here.
Now, the holy grail of questions: "what can I make, how many games can I sell etc". Just browse the forum. You will see that it ranges from 0 ~ big hits. My conclusion: you cannot count on any numbers as an indie. There's no "defined need" that your game fills and from which you would be able to draw concrete numbers from. That's the biggest problem IMHO and the reason I do something different now.
My most important advice I like to give you: it might happen that your priorities change. But as an indie developer, you're in for the long haul and making your special game might be not so important anymore. This point can come sooner than you think. That's what happened to me.


There's a lot to say about this. What I wanted to say is: find out if developing games is really something you want to do fulltime.

Just my .2$

[Emmanuel]

I actually worked on Funpause part-time until the day before Atlantis was released. We're two people (the other person being the artist/designer). Between the two of us we also have three kids :)

If you're planning to make a living out of developing games, don't you think you'll make $200 back? That's how much PTK costs. I figured it would take more than $200 of my time to come up with something similar.

Best regards,
Emmanuel

[Robert Cummings]

Agreed, it's simply amazing how people can't justify costs like fmod and ptk.

4 games is totally unrealistic for any kind of quality. Quantity doesn't pay the bills because people won't buy turds.

2-3 games is doable with a high quality though. You'll want to make one game first, sell that, get a feel for the market before comitting to it.

And for gods sake, don't think in terms of one hit wonders, cos they almost never happen. If you do think along those lines, just do the national lottery instead.

[ERoberts]

2-3 games is doable with a high quality though.

Oh, it is? On what, exactly, do you base this, if you don't mind me asking? Is it the number of sellable games you manage to complete each year, perhaps?

[Hiro_Antagonist]

FWIW, I took a slightly different approach to starting my business than most people here.

My goals with Land of Legends (my first game) are to break even, and be in a position where I have assets under my belt and can hit the ground running on my next project.

I am full-time, and have been for ~1.5 years working on this project. By the time it's done (very, very soon) I will have invested 1.7 years on LOL. But LOL is much 'bigger' than many of the games here.

I also have a team of 4 others, part-time. My dev partner has put in a huge amount of time while juggling a job and family. I also have an artist, a UI designer, and a sound/music guy. They're all working on commission, or in one case, free (for exposure and future paid work from me.)

I have racked up around $25k now (maybe a bit more) in debt and interest. I do expect to make that back over the next 2 years. As should any budding business person/entrepreneur, I've been keeping my living expenses below the poverty line.

In my case, I ran the numbers based on the audience I was trying to reach, projected per-copy revenue, and my own costs. I did a feasability study to look at whether or not my platform (C#/.NET) could really do what we needed it to, and whether I could learn it quickly. The answers in all cases were yes. The numbers looked doable and relatively safe, and I have an exit strategy in the event of catastrophic failure (which thankfully seems highly unlikely at this point.) I felt comfortable jumping into this project because I've been an (non-games) dev and project manager for years now, and I believed I had the skills to do this project. I wouldn't have had the skills for a project of this size a few years ago.

Our plan required that we find a publisher, and we did. Shrapnel Games has been great to work with, and the situation will almost garauntee that we'll come very close to making our money back, and profitability is a very realistic option. Either way, our next game should be cheaper to develop, higher quality, and should be positioned to use our existing customer base to make more money.

My advise to you: Be honest and critical with yourself now. If you do not have a firm grasp (and I mean a FIRM grasp) on what it takes to run a sustainable company, I recommend not trying to go with that approach first. There's little risk and much to be gained by starting as a part-time hobbiest. You will grow your skills, build your assets, find your niche, and generally position yourself better for when you are ready to make a full-time business out of it. The only real cost is lost free-time.

Sorry for the long post, but hope it helps as a case study.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[Jack Norton]

Agreed, it's simply amazing how people can't justify costs like fmod and ptk.
In the beginning I was very cheap too. Then I realized that unless you throw your money away buying useless stuff, you get the money back quickly.
I got back the ptk money just with 7 days of sales of my first mediocre game Spin Around. I learnt C (thanks also to patrice to be honest) and now I am able to release both mac+pc games the same day.

My worst expenses were Torque and Blitz. With torque never managed to compile anything (my fault probably, I'm a bad programmer), with Blitz I made only USM then luckily switched to C and PTK ;)

If I didn't use PTK 2 years ago, now I would have given up completely the indie business.

[luggage]

Between the two of us we also have three kids :)You must get on well!

[Jack Norton]

I guess the question is: can you make a decent living off 4-7ish games a year, or should I look into a better paying job, leaving game development as just a hobby? (assuming no extraordinary luck / bad luck).

Now before you get other answers, please tell us: what is for you "decent living"? if you live in California decent living will SURELY be out of reach.
If you live in Romania you can get decent living with indie earnings :D

[Nexic]

This year I've only managed one game, I might manage another by the end of the year. So you can see how it can be hard to get our so many games. In my first year I did 4, but 2 of those were total junk, and one was a sequel which only took a few weeks to make on top of the previous game.

When I say decent living, I'm talking about UK, which is pretty highly priced, especially when it comes to property. If I lived in Bulgaria I'd be living in a mansion by now (but I doubt getting broadband in Bulgaria is likely)

[overture]

Wow, thanks to everyone for all the replies- I've been reading through the forums for the past few days, but I had no idea it was this active.

For anyone interested, I would mainly be using either Python (with the pyGame libraries) and/or a .NET through C# and boo alongside the Realmforge game development kit (which a real life friend of mine actually leads). I think I'll look closer to 3-4 small games or 1-2 larger scale projects a year, given all the finishing touches they will need.

As far as art is concerned, I've been working on my abilities as of late (multiple people in my family have quite some talent, need to channel mine) and I have friends that have done small work for me in the past (for free if they liked the idea and got a copy of the final product).



Now before you get other answers, please tell us: what is for you "decent living"?
I live in the midwest actually, where $50K would be pretty decent and $100K would be fulfilling my pipe dream.


@ Hiro_Antagonist, I agree with you on starting part time and only fully switching over when comfortable (have the contacts, some built up reputation, etc), I just want to make sure that when/if I do finally switch over, it'll be worth it.


Since you can go to many portals and find literally tons of games these days, it seems somewhat doubtful that out of the massive hordes, someone will not only find, but also buy your game. I guess that's my biggest fear.

I know my first game isn't likely to do well (due to inexperience in the non-tech related work), but does anyone have an example of a game of theirs that has sold somewhat well so I can check out / learn from the game, website, etc.

[soniCron]

...I have friends that have done small work for me in the past (for free if they liked the idea and got a copy of the final product). I assure you they won't work for free if you stand to make $20,000 off it. You're going to have to put some bucks down or be willing to share the profits.

[ERoberts]

You know his friends, do you?

[soniCron]

You know his friends, do you? Knock it off.

[Nexic]

You know his friends, do you?

Do you really need to flame every post made by people who haven't yet released games? I know you feel they shouldn't give advice because they haven't yet released anything, but that doesn't mean they can't give valuable information. Either way, sonicron's advice was good, one that many people would agree with:

Try your best not to expect anyone to work for free. If they do you will have to realise that working on your game won't be their priority. They may be slow, or not finish their work at all. This will put you in a tough situation, do you wait for them to finish the work (assuming they actually want to), or do you scrap most of what they've done and pay someone else, and push the release date further away? Being left in a situation such as that is not a good thing. You simply can't rely on anyone, not matter how close they are to you, to work for free.

[overture]

Try your best not to expect anyone to work for free. If they do you will have to realise that working on your game won't be their priority.

That's a good point, duely noted.

[ERoberts]

Try your best not to expect anyone to work for free. If they do you will have to realise that working on your game won't be their priority. They may be slow, or not finish their work at all. This will put you in a tough situation, do you wait for them to finish the work (assuming they actually want to), or do you scrap most of what they've done and pay someone else, and push the release date further away? Being left in a situation such as that is not a good thing. You simply can't rely on anyone, not matter how close they are to you, to work for free.

Well put, I agree with that. Imagine how nice it would be if all people took care in how they wrote their posts. And you didn't even have to assure someone that their friends WILL let them down.

[Robert Cummings]

ERoberts, since your very first post on this thread you've acted like a forum nazi policing what others say. I suggest you either come forward with a good reason why you're acting like this or say your piece and butt out because you've offered no personal insights so far.

Why not take your own advice?

[Hiro_Antagonist]

Try your best not to expect anyone to work for free. If they do you will have to realise that working on your game won't be their priority. They may be slow, or not finish their work at all.
This is very good advice. I was lucky enough to have one team member working for free this time, but I made it very clear to him what my expectations were, and that I would need him to sign a contract that would hold him accountable for... well... basically nothing in return.

It's worked out well for me. I've gotten amazing background music and pretty decent sound effects. He's now got good portfolio material and credits, and I will be able to afford to pay him on the next project.

All I can really say is that if someone is willing to work for free, make them sign a contract holding them accountable. Yes, it can be kind of a raw deal for them, but so is working for free in the first place. Don't be surprised if they decline to sign -- in fact, that's probably the sensible thing for them to do if they're working for free, but that means you should probably explore other options in that case. =)

-Hiro_Antagonist

[soniCron]

All I can really say is that if someone is willing to work for free, make them sign a contract holding them accountable. Curious: What happens if they breach the contract? ;)

[Omega]

Try your best not to expect anyone to work for free. If they do you will have to realise that working on your game won't be their priority. They may be slow, or not finish their work at all. This will put you in a tough situation, do you wait for them to finish the work (assuming they actually want to), or do you scrap most of what they've done and pay someone else, and push the release date further away? Being left in a situation such as that is not a good thing. You simply can't rely on anyone, not matter how close they are to you, to work for free.

And if somebody does want to do something for you for free, make sure to treat them like crap. They are working for free, so they must be crap, right? Now, if you pay somebody on the other hand, you will have success. But if somebody wants to do something for you for free, you should ignore them and patronize them. Never, ever, expect anything good for free. After all, if somebody asks to do something for you for free, then it surely means that they are also doing 1,000 other things in their life for free, so there is no way that they will actually do a good job, right?

I think what Nexic meant to say is that BOTH PARTIES take paid work more seriously. Take two artists of the same skill level. One is getting paid, the other is volunteering to do it for free. The developer who is paying the artist will actually care, and reply to questions from the artist right away, etc, and give the artist good suggestions. On the other hand, when working with an artist who wants to create something for you for free, the developer will not take his time seriously and will not put up an effort to communicate his views to the artist as well, since he probably thinks the end is gonna be crap anyway because, why else would somebody do something for free.

I think the deal is that developers are insecure when they worry about paying $0 or $1,000,000 for graphics, instead of how good the actual graphics will be. Instead, developers should give 100% effort to communicate what he actually wants to see better, and give advice on what to change and improve so the artist can get an idea of what the developer wants, whether he is paying $0 or $1,000,000 to the artist.

[soniCron]

I think the deal is that developers are insecure when they worry about paying $0 or $1,000,000 for graphics, instead of how good the actual graphics will be. It doesn't matter how good the graphics are if they don't get finished. Working for free is not much incentive to complete the work. Low Motivation ~= Low Productivity. That is what Nexic was saying.

[baegsi]

Sorry, but "a contract for someone who works for free to make him accountable"? What is that? Slavery coming back and nobody told me? :-)


...I just want to make sure that when/if I do finally switch over, it'll be worth it.
You know when it's worth it to switch.

Overture, follwing your questions, it seems to me that game development is not what should concern you. You should more think about whether being self-employed is right for you. When you have to make a living by what you do, a lot of things change.

[papillon]

I certainly didn't treat people who offered to do things for free/almost-free like crap - I wrote them tons of times with all sorts of suggestions, information, updates about how the game development was going... after all, they weren't paid contractors, they were *valued contributors*. I was willing to give their opinions much MORE importance than someone I was just paying to do a job and get it finished. They were friends, partners!

... Yes, they let me down anyway. :)

Either by finally writing me the "I give up, I can't do this, sorry" letter and disappearing forever (this generally if they were inexperienced novices who had offered to do work to "learn about the industry" or "build a portfolio") or by taking well outside of the amount of time they had promised before half-heartedly completing the work (this generally from people who DID have experience and were being "friendly" by helping me out - but were usually then overwhelmed by actual paying work so had trouble getting around to me.)

So no, I don't tend to trust anyone who offers to work for free. Luckily, most of them can be easily gotten rid of by asking them to do *anything at all* - leading to the aforementioned "I give up!" letter. :)

[ERoberts]

ERoberts, since your very first post on this thread you've acted like a forum nazi policing what others say. I suggest you either come forward with a good reason why you're acting like this or say your piece and butt out because you've offered no personal insights so far.

Why not take your own advice?

Way back, when this board (using the term loosely, as I include the board that this originated from) counted for something, people took care about what they wrote, and usually didn't post JUST because they had an opinion on a subject. It would usually be that they had some actual experience to share, or some facts (backed up) to post.

Over time, this board have changed because most of the old people have left and new people have joined. The new people are set on having this be a "community", and now it is considered quite alright to post your opinion, without giving any though to whether they are actually useful to anyone else besides the poster.

So, I'm playing along. I post my opinions, and I'm trying to post more frequently (because as you can see, my post count is so low, and that make me feel inferior, see), even though I could only dream to be able to post as fequently as some of the more dedicated members.

But I'm trying, and I'm sorry if you don't like my opinions, but they ARE mine, and I feel that I have as much right voicing them as anyone else on this forum have to voice theirs... surely noone can disagree about that?

[soniCron]

Way back, when this board (using the term loosely, as I include the board that this originated from) counted for something, people took care about what they wrote, and usually didn't post JUST because they had an opinion on a subject. It would usually be that they had some actual experience to share, or some facts (backed up) to post.

Over time, this board have changed because most of the old people have left and new people have joined. The new people are set on having this be a "community", and now it is considered quite alright to post your opinion, without giving any though to whether they are actually useful to anyone else besides the poster.

So, I'm playing along. I post my opinions, and I'm trying to post more frequently (because as you can see, my post count is so low, and that make me feel inferior, see), even though I could only dream to be able to post as fequently as some of the more dedicated members.

But I'm trying, and I'm sorry if you don't like my opinions, but they ARE mine, and I feel that I have as much right voicing them as anyone else on this forum have to voice theirs... surely noone can disagree about that? I fail to see why this has anything to do with you being a complete asshole?

[Abscissa]

But I'm trying, and I'm sorry if you don't like my opinions, but they ARE mine, and I feel that I have as much right voicing them as anyone else on this forum have to voice theirs... surely noone can disagree about that? There's a big difference between voicing your opinions and being an arrogant prick every single time you post (or every single time you see soniCron post).

And if you don't like the way the forum is now: well, too bad. (Not sure why you came to a message board expecting a reference instead of a community, though...)

[ERoberts]

That's not fair! No need to get personal and call me names!

I've thought the same thing about you many times when you've posted your opinions, but I don't go calling you names in public, do I?

Anyway, are you saying that people that you don't agree with shouldn't be allowed to post?

[Abscissa]

Anyway, are you saying that people that you don't agree with shouldn't be allowed to post? Perhaps I'm wrong, but what I think soniCron is saying is that:

- Posting something soniCron disagrees with: OK.
- Randomly being an ass towards others: Not OK.

EDIT: Normally, I would consider your post of "You know his friends, do you?" to be a reasonable, albiet dangerously blunt, statement of disagreement. However, you have really been getting on his case lately, directly attacking nearly everything he posts. And in that light I'd have to say that soniCron's pre-emptive "Knock it off" was completely called for.

[soniCron]

That's not fair! No need to get personal and call me names! I didn't. I said you were behaving like an ass. Your posts have been less-than helpful and provocative.



Anyway, are you saying that people that you don't agree with shouldn't be allowed to post? I don't remember saying that. I'd simply appreciate it if you'd stop attacking posts without offering anything yourself. It's not constructive and only serves to irritate people.


I'm not going to pollute this thread anymore. If you'd seriously like to debate this, start a new thread with this topic.

[Hiro_Antagonist]

Curious: What happens if they breach the contract? ;)
You hold them accountable, just like if you had paid them for their work. That includes taking them to court to recoup any damages you can show they infliected on your project.

No, it's not pretty, and it's kind of messed up that it would come to that for free work. But if you're going to rely on them, they have to be reliable.

If you're running a totally casual/hobbiest project, it shouldn't be a big deal. But some of us are working on bigger projects with real money and careers on the line. =)

-Hiro_Antagonist

[Hiro_Antagonist]

Sorry, but "a contract for someone who works for free to make him accountable"? What is that? Slavery coming back and nobody told me? :-)
No, it's not slavery. Nobody's forcing them to sign anything. I'm saying, in general, if you're working on a serious project, it's best not to work with people working for free. 95% of the time, it turns out poorly. I managed to have it turn out well, and it's because we had this accountability in place. Everyone on my team is happy, including the guy that worked for free.

However, if you're just working on a hobbiest project and you don't really care if it gets done or not, a contract is overkill. But like I said in an earlier post, if it's an important project, *everyone* on the project needs to be held accountable.

Not sure how that equates to slavery. =)

-Hiro_Antagonist

[luggage]

Any chance of cutting the off-topic arguments out or move them to PM's please? Now you've made me post off topic. :)

[HairyTroll]

You hold them accountable, just like if you had paid them for their work. That includes taking them to court to recoup any damages you can show they infliected on your project.

And the judge will turn around and force you to give them backpay.

You are a business entity and the volunteer is performing a service for you that would normally be rendered by a person in a paid position. You are attempting to hold that person to the same standard as you would an employee. This means that person is entitled to the same legal protections as an employee. Therefore you will have dug for yourself a nice deep hole.

AOL sued by volunteers (http://news.com.com/AOL+not+alone+in+volunteer+controversy/2100-1023_3-226441.html)

From the article:
"Certainly under federal law and under the law in several states, individuals cannot volunteer for other than humanitarian or public service-oriented purposes,"

[baegsi]

No, it's not slavery. Nobody's forcing them to sign anything. I'm saying, in general, if you're working on a serious project, it's best not to work with people working for free. 95% of the time, it turns out poorly. I managed to have it turn out well, and it's because we had this accountability in place.Working with volunteers is a different subject, but one really doesn't need to study law to understand that you can not hold people accountable for free work. That's really a crazy idea. Don't take this personal but I would even call it immorale. What do you do if they break the contract? You can not force people to deliver you anything for free. Even if you make it an internship or something like that. Let them sign any paper you wish, without payment in some form, anyone is free to leave any time from your project without consequences. Otherwise, that would be indeed slavery. I'm really surprised that this even questionable.

You can, however, let them sign a paper that make sure you retain all rights on your work to prevent you from any later claims. This may make sense in some cases.

[Hiro_Antagonist]

And the judge will turn around and force you to give them backpay.

You are a business entity and the volunteer is performing a service for you that would normally be rendered by a person in a paid position. You are attempting to hold that person to the same standard as you would an employee. This means that person is entitled to the same legal protections as an employee. Therefore you will have dug for yourself a nice deep hole.

AOL sued by volunteers (http://news.com.com/AOL+not+alone+in+volunteer+controversy/2100-1023_3-226441.html)

From the article:
Interesting. But I'm not entirely convinced. Obviously there are lines seperating what went on there with what goes on in other, perfectly legal situations.

I know you can enter into business arrangements with compensation other than money. That is the case here. If it weren't possible for someone to work for something other than money, then many existing business relationships in the world would crumble...

And what about unpaid interns? They exist everywhere, especially in legal circles. I find it hard to believe this is an illegally oppresive practice. Can you just call these relationships internships and be done with it?

Anyway, very interesting and relevant article. Thoguh it's worth noting that this particular article states that the class action lawsuit was *filed*, not necessarily *won*. I can't find any info on what actually happened with this case.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[soniCron]

I have no idea if it's remotely useful, but I ran across The Contract Employee's Handbook (http://www.cehandbook.com/). It's at least worth a look by interested parties. I guess. ;) But I digress... this has nothing to do with the original topic.

[HairyTroll]

And what about unpaid interns? They exist everywhere, especially in legal circles. I find it hard to believe this is an illegally oppresive practice. Can you just call these relationships internships and be done with it?

An intern actually has to be enrolled in a grad/undergrad program. The work experience (either paid or unpaid) allows the intern to gain relevant experience related to his or her field of study and is performed in return for acedemic credit.

So no, you can't just rebadge a volunteer as an intern.

[Hiro_Antagonist]

An intern actually has to be enrolled in a grad/undergrad program. The work experience (either paid or unpaid) allows the intern to gain relevant experience related to his or her field of study and is performed in return for acedemic credit.

So no, you can't just rebadge a volunteer as an intern.
Touche! Very good point, and this does totally make it a clear distinction. =)

Kind of ironic, though, how interns are then *paying* (tuition) to work for someone, while after graduation that becomes either illegal or a gray area.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[Omega]

ERoberts said:


Way back, when this board (using the term loosely, as I include the board that this originated from) counted for something, people took care about what they wrote, and usually didn't post JUST because they had an opinion on a subject. It would usually be that they had some actual experience to share, or some facts (backed up) to post.

Over time, this board have changed because most of the old people have left and new people have joined. The new people are set on having this be a "community", and now it is considered quite alright to post your opinion, without giving any though to whether they are actually useful to anyone else besides the poster.

So, I'm playing along. I post my opinions, and I'm trying to post more frequently (because as you can see, my post count is so low, and that make me feel inferior, see), even though I could only dream to be able to post as fequently as some of the more dedicated members.

But I'm trying, and I'm sorry if you don't like my opinions, but they ARE mine, and I feel that I have as much right voicing them as anyone else on this forum have to voice theirs... surely noone can disagree about that?

ERoberts is correct. There was a big discussion early this year about people posting stuff that they have EXPERIENCE IN, instead of loud-mouths with X number of posts a day, X posts per thread. That is because Vets will not post when somebody with a broken web site like (somebody) preaches to everybody here. The only vet who posts here now is John Smith. Posts from Retro64, Dan MacDonald, PomPom, Dexterity, just do not happen anymore.

These forums used to be tightly moderated, but now are under the assumption that if you hold people from posting for 7 days, there are no more problems. Now, there is no moderation whatsoever. It's not the new posters causing problems!

[DrWilloughby]

On Wildlife TYcoon: Venture Africa, my teammates (2d artist, 3d artist, animator, environmental artist, musician, writer, tech artist) are mostly working for royalties. I had contracts drawn up for them by a lawyer friend, and they've all been working out tremendously. I knew 5 of the 7 prior to starting on this project, and we have a ton of mutual trust and respect. Only one has dropped off the project, albiet after doing a bunch of work, and the rest are really committed to getting it done.

We're all aware that the game probably won't pay them back in terms of what they could have gotten in contracting fees for the same amount of work, but we all believe in the project wholeheartedly. We believe that it CAN make good money if it is marketed correctly.

In the past, I've learned to be very careful about working with friends... you can destroy friendships that way. But everyone has been exceedingly mature and has done great work, so it hasn't been a problem.

EDITORIAL: This thread was much more interesting before it turned into bickering.

[Gnatinator]

I agree with ERoberts to some extent. People who dont actually know and are just blowing hot air should just keep quiet (This is what keeps this board different from gamedev.net). Many who have replied in response to this thread havent released jack all yet. I would just like to let the newbies out there know that a few of these 'knowledgable ideas' border on meh to just plain wrong.

I honestly dont care to rant about this for days with people who think they have a clue, so im going to leave it here.

As for the original poster. Yes, you can live a comfortable life being an indie devver. Its a very hard route, expect to fail and to change course multiple times in order to find what works best (persistance pays off). You need to remember that being an indie devver is like any other self-employed business, you get no magical advantage from being a shareware developer.

[soniCron]

Many who have replied in response to this thread havent released jack all yet. I would just like to let the newbies out there know that a few of these 'knowledgable ideas' border on meh to just plain wrong. In that case, it would probably be not only the original poster, but everyone's best interest to know which of these "knowledgable ideas" are bordering on meh to just plain wrong so we don't take some bad advice.

[Omega]

Soni, I was about to, but then I edited your name out of my above post because I got a nice PM from you a minute ago. ;)

[baegsi]

Don't want to go off topic again, so started a new invitation only? (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=3969) thread

[ERoberts]

..........

[Ricardo C]

This forum was much more interesting before it turned into this soapbox for opinionated narcissists.

I agree.

So when are you leaving?

[svero]

We still moderate and many of the people "gone missing" still do ocassionally post. But one of the things about making games for a living and not running forums for a living is that we don't always have time to get involved in the details of every single thread on the board. I don't think the moderation is much looser than it use to be though. There was never a need for much moderation in the past.