Mac programming

[digriz]

Hi,

I'm thinking about moving into Mac programming so i can make my games available on that platform.

I've searched the threads and found some usefull information about dev environments but i still have a few questions.

I am TOTALLY ignorant when it comes to mac's, so you'll have to excuse me if i sound like a fool.

Is a Mac Mini suitable for game development? If not what would you recommend?

Also, i notice that the latest OS is called Tiger, would software developed for previous OS's work with the new one? And is it possible to test my software on a Tiger system for compatibilty on previous OS's? Like in XP when you run software as 95, 98 etc.

And i was wondering if anyone could recommend any good mac programming sites or books relevant to Mac games programming. I know my way around pc hardware and software; and i know how to code games. I'm looking more for the technical information really.

thanks.

[Phil Steinmeyer]

A mini would probably be ok for small-ish, non 3D games. I will be using a mini for development and testing of the Mac version of my game.

Re: OS versions - I don't trust that a version tested on OS 10.4 will necessarily work on 10.2 or 10.3. I bought a used, inexpensive iBook to test on 10.2, that will also help me cover my bases with both a desktop and a notebook to test with (~half of all macs sold are notebooks)

[princec]

Try Java too by the way... often overlooked, but built in to the Mac.

Cas :)

[Bachus]

A Mac Mini would be fine for most developing most games and apps. I wouldn't want to develop or play Doom 3 on it, but you certainly could if you were so inclined. I use an old G5 as my main workstation, but I also have a really old G4 (less powerful than even a Mini) and a couple of ancient G3s, and they all work fine for development and testing.

Apps developed in earlier versions of the OS should work in later versions, but there may be some quirks so you should always test. Apps developed in X.4 will work in earlier versions, but only if you set the deployment target in Xcode to an earlier system (just a simple flag). Also, you can't require the use of technologies only available in later systems. Still, you'll want to test on earlier systems to make sure everything works.

You'll want to use X.4 for your main system, but you can easily partition your drive and install other systems on those partitions. I wouldn't bother with X.0 at all. You can probably also ignore X.1. I wouldn't require more than X.3 or X.4 as X.2 still has a fairly large user base. You can also usually require the free updates, so instead of requiring X.2, a lot of games require X.2.8, or X.1.5 instead of X.1.

developer.apple.com (http://developer.apple.com/) - Apple's developer site
idevgames.com (http://www.idevgames.com) - Mac game dev, with forums
cocoadev.com (http://www.cocoadev.com) - Really great Cocoa wiki
macdevcenter.com (http://www.macdevcenter.com/) - O'Reilly's Mac site

[soniCron]

G5... G4... G3s... X.4... X.4... X.1... X.3... X.4... X.2... X.2... X.2.8... X.1.5... X.1... And I thought Windows was difficult to test for compatibility!

[princec]

The G's is just a general performance indicator.. it's the OSX version thats important. What's the relative distribution of OSX versions anyone?

Cas :)

[Bachus]

G3/4/5 are just the processors. Outside of Altivec (which no new apps should really be using considering the switch to Intel next year) and a couple of small assembly things, there's no incompatibilites between them. There are rarely incompatibilities between OS versions. An app written for X.1 will almost always run on X.4. Going the other way is the one you really have to look out for. If you write a game using X.4-only technologies then you're SOL on X.3. This isn't a huge problem either. The frameworks say what OS version is required for everything, and the compiler will bitch at you if you're trying to deploy for a version that doesn't support something you aren't using.

The one area where incompatibilities might get you is OpenGL. Bug fixes aren't back-ported. This can be a blessing: With Macs you *know* you're getting a specific version of OGL with a specific version of the OS. The curse being that users have to upgrade their OS to expose new features or fix some bugs. Shaders were essentially unusable before X.2.8, and are highly unreliable until X.3.8 (Doom3 requires X.3.8 because of this for instance). Though most indies probably aren't doing much of anything with shaders, so it doesn't really matter. Don't think you're going to be avoiding OGL though. For 2D you're either going to be using QuickDraw, Quartz, or OGL. QD is old and deprecated. Quartz is new and wonderful and *slow*. Guess what's left?

What's the relative distribution of OSX versions anyone?

I don't have a web-site, but Steve talked about it at WWDC. 16% are using Tiger (X.4), 49% are using Panther (X.3), 25% are using Jaguar (X.2), and 10% are using earlier versions (X.0, X.1). That's six weeks after Tiger's release, and quite a few more people are using it now. Apple's projecting for 2006 that 50% will be using Tiger, 30% Panther, 15% Jaguar, and 5% earlier. You can ignore the users using earlier versions of OS X as those are the grandmas and schools and businesses that rarely update and certainly don't buy games.

[Mark Fassett]

PTK is a great C++ solution for 2D mac games. You don't really have to learn much at all about the Mac to program for it if you use PTK.

[Tertsi]

I'm just wondering if the newest 12" G4 IBook (OS X.4) is good for Mac games development? Is a 12" monitor too small?

I'd really like a notebook so I might have other uses for it than game development.

Is 1024x768 resolution too much for a 12" monitor by the way? At least that notebook supports it and I think it uses it by default.

[princec]

12" is fine, just sit closer ;) The only thing I have to say about Macs is get a gig of RAM.

Cas :)

[Tertsi]

A gig of RAM? What for?

Those notebooks have 512 MB RAM.

[princec]

Because if there's one thing that the Mac loves, it's RAM, and the more it's got, the faster it goes because it swaps less.

Cas :)

[Savant]

That's a good rule of thumb for any computer, Mac or PC. If you have to choose one thing to upgrade or get more of ... make it RAM! They can always use more. Always.

[Pogacha]

How much will cost a mac development stand?, the computer, the software and all you need for basic development ... a G3 is the minimal target? so can it be the platform? ...
In IBM/PC a pentium III 600 mhz with windows 98 SE, VC 6.0, and a 16 mb card is enough, about 500$ ... for mac what you need?

[_6_]

I'm also interested in getting a Mac for development purposes, but have never used one before, so forgive this stupid question.

Do you have to use an Apple made monitor with Mac like the mini? Or could I use a normal LCD monitor and save a few hundred dollars?

[Savant]

Normal monitors work fine. My iBook came with an adapter right in the box.

[princec]

Before y'all get too excited by Mac Minis, I'd just like to chip in and say that if you can actually afford it the iMac is better value for money, being at least twice as fast and coming with its "own" monitor, keyboard and mouse. If like me you don't have these things just lying around it's a far better machine to have.

Cas :)

[soniCron]

In IBM/PC a pentium III 600 mhz with windows 98 SE, VC 6.0, and a 16 mb card is enough, about 500$ ... Where are you getting your computers? I got my P4 2.66GHz, 512MB RAM, GeForce FX5200 w/64MB VRAM new for $600. Unless you're counting VC 6.0 for some silly reason...

[Pogacha]

Where are you getting your computers? I got my P4 2.66GHz, 512MB RAM, GeForce FX5200 w/64MB VRAM new for $600. Unless you're counting VC 6.0 for some silly reason...
How much is VC 6.0 now ? :o
You are right, I go to far, my computer is a Pentium III 700 mhz on an AOpen board with AOpen Power Supply and it doesn't sell it for less than $300 because it will run for ever without a problem ... add a $100 monitor and software and there is my sum ... I can get similar machines in low quality for $150 ... maybe with $300 you can have an stand for develop ...

[soniCron]

How much is VC 6.0 now ? :o
You are right, I go to far, my computer is a Pentium III 700 mhz on an AOpen board with AOpen Power Supply and it doesn't sell it for less than $300 because it will run for ever without a problem ... add a $100 monitor and software and there is my sum ... I can get similar machines in low quality for $150 ... maybe with $300 you can have an stand for develop ... I figure, if you're buying a PIII machine anyway, who cares if it lasts forever. It's crap. And everybody's got an old copy of Windows 98, so just "transfer" the license. As far as VC 6.0, if you're stuck buying old PIII machines, why buy an IDE in the first place? Why not just use GCC? That's so silly. I say it's much better just to snag your neighbor's old machine when they get a new one. At the beginning of the year, I had 6 machines, monitors and all. I've whittled them down to one additional machine, which I use as my minimum spec testing box. And I didn't pay a cent for any one of them.

[Pogacha]

:mad: :mad: :mad: Where I live a Pentium 166 cost almost $90 and no-one gift it away ... I'm in the wrong side of the world ...
Anyway my original question was how much I have to spend for development in mac?

[ggambett]

Where are you getting your computers?We oficially live in the third world :(

[Pogacha]

Sad but true ...

[soniCron]

We oficially live in the third world :( Didn't think about that. [takes a sip of Starbucks and reclines in a leather, gold-studded office chair on the 140th floor of an air-conditioned office building.]

[Bmc]

Didn't think about that. [takes a sip of Starbucks and reclines in a leather, gold-studded office chair on the 140th floor of an air-conditioned office building.]

... and then you wake from your dream when you hear you mom calling you upstairs for breakfast.

for mac programming check this would be probably be the place to start for the basics I think http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568843496/103-1089743-1486259?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance

[soniCron]

... and then you wake from your dream when you hear you mom calling you upstairs for breakfast. No kidding. I may not live in a third world country, but I do live in the ass-hole of the U.S.

[Bmc]

No kidding. I may not live in a third world country, but I do live in the ass-hole of the U.S.

I was just joking around with ya. :) You don't live in DC do you?

[soniCron]

I was just joking around with ya. :) You don't live in DC do you? Hah! No. Arkansas. Though I'm greatful I've got this much. Could be far worse.

[Daniel]

PTK is a great C++ solution for 2D mac games. You don't really have to learn much at all about the Mac to program for it if you use PTK.

Yes, PTK is a great tool if you're in to PC hardward and software, know C++ but don't know squat about Mac!

All we needed to port our PC games to Mac was a Mac Mini, a KVM switch (to share my current PC monitor + keyboard + mouse) and a license of PTK ($215).
The C++ compiler, Xcode, comes with Mac OS X.

More about PTK here, a watermark version is available for free - http://www.phelios.com/ptk/

[Emmanuel]

I have the exact same setup and knowledge of Mac as Daniel. Having made Atlantis on pc with ptk, porting it to Mac, benefiting from 3d acceleration, resource packing and all, took a half day total. For us, the Mini is more than enough for porting and testing our Mac versions and supporting our customers (and more than 1000 Atlantis Mac sales later, we can say the Mac mini and ptk license were a good investment).

Best regards,
Emmanuel

[Pogacha]

All we needed to port our PC games to Mac was a Mac Mini, a KVM switch (to share my current PC monitor + keyboard + mouse) and a license of PTK ($215).
The C++ compiler, Xcode, comes with Mac OS X.
So a mac mini is all you need for mac development?
so about $500?

[Daniel]

So a mac mini is all you need for mac development?
When it comes to downloadable / casual games, then yes, a Mac Mini is definitely enough!
Can't give any comments on how it handles developing or playing advanced 3D games though.

[Pogacha]

It could be a good inversion so ...

[wazoo]

I know that PTK is a popular choice, but what about SDL?

Are there too many "gotchas" and workarounds to use it (successfully) for both PC/Mac?

I currently develop exclusively on the PC, but I wanna keep the door open for Mac ports later on..

[Bachus]

I know that PTK is a popular choice, but what about SDL?

Are there too many "gotchas" and workarounds to use it (successfully) for both PC/Mac?

I currently develop exclusively on the PC, but I wanna keep the door open for Mac ports later on..

SDL works just fine on the Mac. You can include the framework inside the .app bundle so the user doesn't have to install anything extra. I've personally never used it because I couldn't care less about porting to non-Mac systems, but I know dozens of developers that live by SDL.

[Gnatinator]

PTK and SDL are both great choices if you want to keep your game portable. Pretty much anything with a macosx port will do the trick (glfw, allegro etc.) All I can recommend is that you stay away from pure directx. And other non-portable codes. ;) You will save yourself tons of time and effort if you use a wrapper-lib.

Also, if this is your first time porting, make sure you've embedded the required frameworks correctly. If you dont know what i'm talking about, check out this thread. (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=2962) (the discussion of framework embedding begins a few posts down)

[frozax]

I'm re-opening this quite old thread to get confirmation that a 12" G4 IBook (PowerPC) is ok for development. Everybody seems to use a Mac Mini but I'd prefer a notebook. I have never used a Mac.
I will only use it to port games, and keep doing the "main development" on PC.

Thanks.

I'm just wondering if the newest 12" G4 IBook (OS X.4) is good for Mac games development? Is a 12" monitor too small?

I'd really like a notebook so I might have other uses for it than game development.

Is 1024x768 resolution too much for a 12" monitor by the way? At least that notebook supports it and I think it uses it by default.

[BitBoy]

I'm re-opening this quite old thread to get confirmation that a 12" G4 IBook (PowerPC) is ok for development. Everybody seems to use a Mac Mini but I'd prefer a notebook. I have never used a Mac.
I will only use it to port games, and keep doing the "main development" on PC.

Thanks.
I've got an 12" iBook and am really happy with it. The screen quality isn't the best (it's made for 1024x768 btw) and you really should get some extra RAM (768MB works for me), but other than that it's really nice and does everything I want it to. It looks smashing as well! :)

[varmint]

I do all my development on my 12" powerbook with 768 meg of RAM. Tools that I use are, metrowerks codewarrior, xcode, lightwave, iterm ( http://iterm.sourceforge.net/ ) and fink. ( http://fink.sourceforge.net/ ) oh yes and can't forget SubEthaEdit ( http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/ ).. When at home I plug it into me 19" monitor with a KVM switch to switch between my x86 box and powerbook :) With an external monitor you can do 1280x1024 dual screen.
:D

A friend of mine who does database development uses a 12" powerbook and even runs Oracle on it along with Jdeveloper and virtual PC. Mind you he has 1.2G of RAM.