Burn the ship ?

[Jason Chong]

Ok here's my situation.

1. My job ain't paying me enough, I would never earn enough even if I work
here forever. (usd 580 a month)

2. I have no debts, no mortage, no house loans, no dependents, no girlfriend. :-p

3. I can do coding, artwork, animation, audio/mod/xm tracking with modplug. And I am good with 3D software. You can check my sample splash page at my unfinished website (www.aurabit.com) (nothing yet, still trying to get a decent webhost)

4. I saved up enough money to last me more than a year (2-3 years), and I can always contract/work part-time.

5. I won't be able to get a decent job here anyway in my country since nobody would even pay me my worth without a degree (i can't afford one at the moment) even though I have a prior published title (by magnussoft, midas interactive) which I show the interviewer. Even previous published titles can't get anyone to pay me my worth here. You know, Asian employers here are really stingy.


I just resigned from my job last few week, waiting out the notice period. I used to work in a mobile content company but I felt I could do more and faster than the way they manage the company. I don't want to sell my time for them and sacrifice my opportunity costs.

I can always work part-time when I need extra cash, and I have no dependents.

Did I do it right ? My career wouldn't go anywhere as an employee, nobody is going to give me a chance unless I give myself a chance.

If I can hit usd 300-400 a month I can go full-time. But I have confidence I can do better than that of course.. and yet have full control of my time and destiny.

I am very tired of waking up 6 am in the morning to a day job, it's not very good for my health/motivation by the time I get back home at 7 pm.

Working 9-10 hours a day (add 1 hour + for commuting) is a real morale killer for the pay that doesn't even come close to a fresh university grad here, yet I have much more experience than them (I just lack the university degree)

[PoV]

Nice art. :).

Heck yeah. I don't about the 'right' thing to do, but I would have done the same thing had I been in your shoes. I also did the "save up the cash to live for a while" thang, and I was ready to go too, had another opportunity not come my way.

Lone wolf deving (doing everything) is great and all, but depending how hard you are on yourself, lack of motivation might bite you. Do try to stay social, but don't spend all your time on forums, irc, etc... :). The best advice I have (based on observations) is start out on a small game. Something you can get working in a few days, to a week or two, then spend a couple months populating it and making it look good. A game that doesn't require much art or content (levels) is ideal, that's still interesting and compelling to a customer. Your cost of living is really low (I think you'd need 2-3x that here in Canada), so a small success should do you nicely. Also the first game may not be what gets you in the green, it may take a few before things get going good.

Good luck.

[Jack Norton]

300$ a month and you can survive? what were you waiting for? :D
I wish I could survive with only that sum... :rolleyes:

[Coyote]

That, or get a university degree. Or both :)

[Greg Squire]

IMHO, a degree is only useful when looking for a standard job working for someone else. When you are working for yourself that doesn’t matter. I believe experience counts for more that a degree also, but this is not the case to some employers. Most employers that I’ve dealt with (in the US here) have wanted a degree and experience. Generally an employer is looking for specific skills when they hire someone, which is an experience thing. I believe most of them look for experience and skills, and not so much the education. The problem lies in if they are deciding between two candidates, each with the same experience, but one has a degree and the other does not. They just might choose the guy with the degree in that case. There are other factors to be considered, of course, but in this day an age of large corporations and impersonal human resource departments, the guy without the degree is at a great disadvantage. At some point it may still be useful to have a degree, so don’t discount it entirely.

I believe you’ve made the right choice; it’s the choice I would have made if I was in your shoes. You don’t have other commitments and you’ve got some savings to dip into if the business doesn’t do well. I was living on $400 a month (in the US) when a was starving student 14 years ago, so I know that’s possible (should be more possible for you are the costs of living are less in Asia [generally]). You also seem to have the skills to make an Indie software business fly. (Nice art BTW) I don’t know what the business regulations are in your country, but be sure and follow the law. You wouldn’t want to get shut down for running an illegal business. Believe in your self, and with hard work, you can do it. Others have and so can you. Bill Gates was also a college dropout, and look where he ended up. Don’t let other people tell you what you can or can’t accomplish. Good Luck, I wish you well!

[dan]

As far as the "Did you do right" question goes, you can only answer that yourself.

From the outside looking in, the indicators look fine. No wife, girlfriend, or children to support means that there is no 300 lb stone of responsibility on your back. No debt, too?

I'm jealous. I make an excellent living wage but I have 3 dependent children. Golden handcuffs that I love.

Jason, you can do any damn thing you want to in your situation. What the hell are you risking? That you run out of money in 12 months and have to go back to a job, only you've got no bank account this time? Big friggin' deal. You run a far bigger risk of waking up one fine day, 20 years from now, wondering why you never took any chances.

Work your ass off. Don't work alone. Find some programmer/artist colleagues who work cheap or free or for a reasonable percentage and delegate. Make something you're proud of.

[Jason Chong]

Thanks guys, I think the most motivating and encouraging advise i've received so far is none other than fellow indies themselves. :-)

I'll try my best, and will contribute something more useful back here one day
when the time comes. :-) (I'll contribute even while I am doing my work)

Off I go, to full time indie game dev (with some contract/part-time work perhaps)

[Nemesis]

Jason, I think you are in a very favourable situation to try going full time. Since you have very low cost requirements and since the cost of living at your end seems low, especially compared to the US, I think you stand a very good chance of making some decent money. Once you have a game to market, if you manage to sell 1 copy a day on average you'll match your last salary. I don't think that's an unrealistic prospect if you have a good product in your hands.

[ggambett]

I second Jack Norton's advice. If $300 if your "make it" mark, don't even think about it, do it NOW :)

[MattInglot]

Honestly $300 is very easy to make on the internet. You could probably get that much just for doing a little 3D work on the side. You're stuff looks nice.

Just come up with a good plan first, lacking one is the only thing that would likely cause you to fail at your goal. Plan plan plan. Very important. Plan.

[Sirrus]

Completely agree with everyone...Go for it! It seems like the perfect time.


As a side note, Dan - Dungeon Delvers looks fantastic...when can we get a taste? :)


Alex
weaponstudios.com
dopefarmer.com
injoygames.com

[Curiosoft]

Ok here's my situation.


Working 9-10 hours a day (add 1 hour + for commuting) is a real morale killer for the pay that doesn't even come close to a fresh university grad here, yet I have much more experience than them (I just lack the university degree)

Yeah,

Don't worry about a degree. Without a degree, you are forced to become a millionaire...cuz no traditional job will pay you much. So you have to create your own opportunity :)

If you want to go the standard route of working for someone else from 7 AM - 7 PM, then get the degree. The degree is very important for that. If you have good skills and are willing to learn on your own (like going to a library)...then the degree does not matter.

But...you must learn on your own; you must be self-disciplined. All the college dropouts that became rich read a lot of stuff on their own.

The other thing mentioned is...FIND OTHER PEOPLE TO WORK WITH YOU; or at least meet with people interested in games once a week. If anything, they'll give you ideas. Don't dwell on not having a degree...cuz now it's forcing you to strike it rich on your own :)

Like a wise man said...
If you want to live in the lower-middle class, go to a state school
If you want to live in the upper class, go to an Ivy League school
If you want to make a difference...drop out ;)

Good luck and look forward to hearing your updates.

Btw, the first book you should read is "Think and Grow Rich"...that is a very useful book for achieving success.

Later,
Curiosoft

P.S. The genius Thomas Edison was a kindergarten dropout

[Bluecat]

Yeah,

Don't worry about a degree. Without a degree, you are forced to become a millionaire...cuz no traditional job will pay you much. So you have to create your own opportunity :)

...

But...you must learn on your own; you must be self-disciplined. All the college dropouts that became rich read a lot of stuff on their own.

...

Like a wise man said...
If you want to live in the lower-middle class, go to a state school
If you want to live in the upper class, go to an Ivy League school
If you want to make a difference...drop out ;)



Reminds me of a speech by Larry Ellison given at Yale. Ellison Yale Speech (http://www.satirewire.com/news/0006/satire-ellison.shtml)

He made some similar points to yours.

cheers

John

[DavidRM]

Reminds me of a speech by Larry Ellison given at Yale. Ellison Yale Speech (http://www.satirewire.com/news/0006/satire-ellison.shtml)

He made some similar points to yours.

cheers

John

You realize that's satire, right???



SatireWire is intended for use by those age 18 and older. All stories are fictional and satirical and should not in any way be construed as fact. Please read our disclaimer. All contents Copyright © 1999-2003, SatireWire, LLC. All rights reserved.

Still, funny as hell. And all too true. =)

In "The Millionaire Mind", the author shows that high academic achievement not only does *not* guarantee wealth, but that people who score high on standardized tests (like the SAT) are generally more risk averse than those who did less well. And its all but impossible to succeed without taking risks.

-David

PS For the record, I graduated in 4 years, and still highly recommend a college degree. Like all things in life, though, you usually get out of college what you put into it.

[Jack Norton]

It depends also on where you live. taking a degree here in Italy is really a pain. You have very little choices, very high costs, and generally long long courses... well ok, I'm just trying to justify that I am a dropout :D

[PoV]

Yeah, 3 cheers for the dropouts. :).

School's too slow. I learned way more on my own doing indie projects while at school, and being thrown into the fire of my first industry job. I will admit, the schooling I took gave me a good starting point, but that's long behind me now.

[Bluecat]

You realize that's satire, right???
Really!?!?!

I had no idea!!! :p

Seriously though, that has been one of my favorite sites for years. IMO much better than the onion. It's a real pity the guy stopped updating it.

My two favorites have to be when Australia gets drunk, and the other detailing the efforts of the guys smuggling contraband onto aircraft!

cheers

John

[Jason Chong]

Oh btw, there's one thing I did, I bought DavidRM's 'Indie Game Development Survival Guide'. They don't stock it here at all so I had to order it, and it was cheaper than ordering online, I ordered it through a bookstore since they have to batch it up with other Charles River media books, they didn't even charge me shipping fees, just the currency converted rates.

Awesome service and awesome book! ;-)

[Roulette]

If you're interested in part-time contracting to help pay the bills, I'd certainly be interested in seeing a bit more of your work...the art you posted looks very nice.

You can contact me via http://www.superluminal.us if you're interested....

- Roulette

[robleong]

Jason, your models look fantastic. I agree that now's the time for you to try to make it as an indie, while you're still young and have no major commitments. Selling a game at US prices and living in Malaysia is a real advantage due to the currency differential. Go for it!

[z3lda]

"3. I can do coding, artwork, animation, audio/mod/xm tracking with modplug. And I am good with 3D software. You can check my sample splash page at my unfinished website (www.aurabit.com) (nothing yet, still trying to get a decent webhost) "

I would also be interested in seeing more of your work. This would include lowpolygon models, 2d art and any game demos you programmed.

You can use contactme@endbossgames.com to reach me.

[formfarbeminze]

Jason, your models look fantastic.

these models are the fucking best thing i saw for ages!!!!!

[EpicBoy]

A degree is a nice cushion however, in case the indie thing doesn't work out. You have to face that possiblity. If it flops and you have no degree, you're going to be digging ditches to make ends meet. If you have a degree, you at least have a chance of getting a decent fallback job somewhere.

[Jason Chong]

I agree but I've got only 1 year more to go for a degree and I don't see the
urgency to get it now.

I'll save up the money for this indie opportunity instead first. :D

[EpicBoy]

Not to dissuade you, but if you only have a year to go ... why not just get it over with? Why couldn't you try the indie thing in a year?

I just don't like people rushing off to do things with no back up plans. It's like kids who play sports and put all of their eggs into the "going pro" basket. Odds are it isn't going to happen and they end up emptying trash cans for the rest of their lives.

[Jason Chong]

Well I just don't have a degree, but I have an advanced diploma, so i still can get a job, I just probably won't get paid as much as a degree grad. ;-)


And dude, it ain't cheap, degree here will cost me 2-3 years of savings.

If you read up on education in Malaysia, it is the most discriminating and most
racist ever adopted all over the whole world.

My degree will have to be paid in US Dollars or UK pounds and it's really really not cheap.

[serg3d]

Just my 2.cents:
Finish your degree while working on the small titles. May help to pay fro it too. After 10 yeras it will be a lot harder to get degree, and with degree you will have more freedom to stay indie or take full time job form time to time.
BTW how much are you charging for modelling ? I may need some cheap 2D animation in couple of month (I hope. I'm in the permanent state of one month from finishing my game...) ;)

[Jason Chong]

I really can't afford a degree now as my only option will be to get one from either UK or US through some twinning. It's gonna cost me more than 2 years of salary. It's not that I don't have a paper qualification, and degree is something you can always take, but opportunities like this don't come often..

Besides, IT degree is saturated, here you really don't get paid much as a software engineer. And if i were to switch majors i'll be needing to fork out probably twice more than an IT final year degree. Education is expensive and unaffordable to me at this moment.

[Curiosoft]

Well, to be fair, school is a good place to be if you don't know what you passion is in life. In that case, might as well be in that environment than some other.

If you know what you love to do and can find people to help you out, then school doesn't matter. Of course, you have to dedicate plenty of time to read up on emerging trends/etc.

For example, last week...I designated the *whole* week as a "reading week". That meant...I would do no coding. Before starting the week, I felt it would take away from my indie goals. But you know, that was one of the most profitable weeks this year for me. Reading the ideas of others energized me to get into action and try a whole bunch of good things.

And...the research that comes out of the top universities is decent.

So there are some redeeming benefits. But I think the best model is to live near a university, meet folks, do projects, and avoid classes ;)

Later,
Curiosoft

[robleong]

If you read up on education in Malaysia, it is the most discriminating and most racist ever adopted all over the whole world.


Tell me about it - that's why I'm no longer living in Malaysia!

If you're already on your way in getting a degree in one year, I agree with EpicBoy that you should make that your first priority instead of suddenly jumping ship and going indie. That degree will be more worthwhile than a one year jump-start in indie development - get a loan to get that degree.

[Chris Evans]

Just keep in mind, most of us are biased. Many who went full-time Indie are saying take the plunge and those who have degrees are saying finish school. :)

Well let me preface my comments by saying I'm biased toward going full-time since I also burned the ship earlier this year. But I want to say this:

The opportunity you have right now to become a full-tiime Indie with such a low risk could be a once in a lifetime deal. As others mentioned, you really only need to sell one game a day to match your current living expenses. If you wait a year or two, you never know what might happen. You might get married or have a kid in that time, or you might move to another country where living expenses are higher. You're savings might be a lot less for whatever reason.

I'm in the camp that believes prime times to become an Indie don't come around very often. You have to seize it when those times come. How many times do you hear people say, "I wish I went full-time a year or two or even 6 months earlier".

As for education, you seem like a bright guy and your 3D work looks great. Your 3D work (if it indeed is yours) is enough for you to fall back on, you don't need an IT degree. Just look at how many job inquires you already got in this thread. ;) You could do very well doing freelance 3D work. If you want a fall-back degree, then I'd get a degree that's unrelated to computers. An IT degree is not going to do you much good if the whole industry is in a major downturn. Whereas with an unrelated degree, you still might be able to find a decent job in another field.

It's nice to have a backup plan or safety net, but sometimes you just have to take a risk. You want to reduce your risks, but if you're going to go into business for yourself you have to accept there are just some risks you can't avoid. You have a great opportunity right now because your risks are very low. Don't listen to Epicboy, you will not be digging ditches if you don't finish your last year of school. You already have some high level education and it seems you have exceptional 3D modeling skills. You'll be able to find something to do if your Indie biz doesn't work out. It's better now to struggle/fail with your Indie biz when it's just you rather than later when you have a wife, kid, car, and mortgage to support.

I'll say it again, you're in a prime opportunity right now. Don't let it slip away. Who knows if you'll ever get another one?

[PoV]

I think some people missed the part where he said he couldn't afford to take the degree (too expensive). Aparently the choice is simple. :cool:. I'm jealous.

Heh, I have 1 semester/term left (4 month) in for my degree. And I'm soooo not going back for mine.

[Yuriy O]

Ok here's my situation.
I am very tired of waking up 6 am in the morning to a day job, it's not very good for my health/motivation by the time I get back home at 7 pm.
Working 9-10 hours a day (add 1 hour + for commuting) is a real morale killer for the pay that doesn't even come close to a fresh university grad here, yet I have much more experience than them (I just lack the university degree)

Hey, I HEAR YOU. Even though I have Master's in Computer Engineering, I still can't find a good paying even in US. Though, I have to work full time job for now my goal is set to owning my own business, most likely partnership with someone whose goals coincide with mine and I know that I'm on my to succeed. But anyway, I know how it feels to come to work for some #$$holes and how it screws up all the motivation and the mood even knowing that you got bunch of your own stuff to do. It usually makes me wanna sleep and makes me sorta depressed, but once I leave the building I feel so much better, like that pimp from Circuit city or Best buy commercial who was given a wireless laptop :D :D :D

[formfarbeminze]

A degree is a nice cushion however, in case the indie thing doesn't work out. You have to face that possiblity. If it flops and you have no degree, you're going to be digging ditches to make ends meet.

this is not true. if your business flops, your life does not end. you won't be caught in an endless loop washing dishes as punishement for not 'making it'. as a real businessman you will stand up again, start the next thing. even if this means washing dishes for five years to collect some start-up money. yes, it is hard to start again, but it is allowed. yes, you can do that. and than: a degree is not a 100%-way to get a decent job either.

[Indiepath]

Chris Evans says wise words. I agree with him.

P.S. You mentioned you are looking for a decent webhost? Take a look at www.webhostingtalk.com - that is *the* place where to find it. In my personal experience I'd recommend www.hometownhosting.com (they have very good prices, very good hosting plans and support is outstanding) or www.lizardnetwork.com (Great uptime and Matt (here on these boards) is a trusted guy and his service has been working very nicely).

[super_e]

Jason,

First of all, its nice to see someone here who also lives in Asia. I actually had the same situation and I'd recommend that you go for it BUT don't forget to start with a semi-long term plan, say like 6-9 months, so that you have something to guide you and base your direction on. I resigned from my day-job a year ago, did some part-time graphics for small companies for a few months and created my own games and I'm actually earning 3 times now compared to my previous monthly salary. I also recently formalized my own game development company (although there's just 3 of us working on it full time). Yes, standard of living is way low here in Asia so earning in USD is definitely a big advantage. Like most of the guys said and I also believe, you look like someone who has the capabilities to make it in the indie scene. I didn't post my experience to convince you but to let you know that risks like this are sometimes worth taking, you just have to have the guts and be confident on whatever you do.

- Erick
http://www.esoftinteractive.com/

[Jason Chong]

Thanks Super-E. I realize I will have to work even harder than my day job
once I get back on track with my indie efforts.

I'll have to work normal 9-5 but it'll be worth it because i own
everything and make every decisions. :-)

I'll probably post my progress report here so you all can bitch and slap me
if I lose focus/track of my projects.

:D