Venting off a little frustration

[moonpxi]

Ok, here I was, checking out a preview of The Sims 2, and watching some of their videos and than a down, sinking, feeling hitted me. The feeling of "oh, okey, one day I wish I could do something like this". And I am not even a big The Sims fan, and here is also the hype...

Did this ever hit you?? The felling that you wish to do a big, a great project, beyond dreams, and know that you can't?? I know that I am starting out, and everything, but this somehow depressed me a lot.

[Nikster]

Cant' ??? CAN'T ??? with that attitude I don't think you will, however if you look at very successful games, look at how simple they are, Sims, a blatant enhancement of "Little computer people" Tetris, fantastic programmer art, lemmings, hardly anything to it apart from great designing of levels (the earlier versions anyway) but, as they say, they had the right idea at the right time. I even thought Horace goes skiing was fantastic, nothing I couldn't do, but I would never though of doing such a game originally, I guess most of the games I mentioned have in common is they were pretty much unique when they hit the shelves. also don't forget these guys never came up with a golden idea straight away, many of them worked of flops before hand.. but persevere and it may just be you...

My random trolling again *sorry* :)

[moonpxi]

Yes...you are right, Nikster!! Absolutely right!! I was thinking something along those lines soon after I hit the "Submit new thread". But, I don't know, I guess I am in a bad day... :(

[Nikster]

I know where you are coming from.. I have had to back peddle on my game and to be honest I don't think it will see the light of day.. mainly for reasons out of my control, but instead, I have taken to writing some (hopefully) useful utilities to help people with more resources than I to maybe create that next winner. That is, until I can sort my resource issues out and continue with my game.

I guess your on a bit of a downer, fear not, most of us are in an even worse state :)

[Sunshine]

I have played Commodore 64 games that were more fun than the Sims. :p

So I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. ;)

[moonpxi]

Well...to me the greatest game of all times is "Elevator Action". Seriously!!!

[Jack Norton]

I don't really feel the "need" to do a "big" game like the sims... I prefer the freedom of the indie business than being a programmer-slave of some big company ;)

...of course until I can earn enough money from my games :D

[nemo54321]

Don't get down about it... everyone wants to leave their mark.

But something to remember about The Sims is...

It was the first game marketed to non-gamers. I personally dislike the game, I lost interest too quickly. However, the people I konw that play it are non-gamers. And that is why... IMO that it is the biggest selling game ever... people who don't play games could play this game for 10-30 minutes, take a break, and then go about thier lives. Which just proves the old saying K.I.S.S.

:)

-- Joe Hawkins

[Nemesis]

I haven't played it, but to this day I still don't see what's the point of playing a game that mimics every day life. My idea of a game is that it sohuld take you in a fantasy work, even if it is as flat as a simple 2D platformer.

If I ever had to create an anti-campaign for The Sims, it would be:

"The Sims, the life game for people who cannot get a real life."

[nemo54321]

"The Sims, the life game for people who cannot get a real life."

Exactly!! Which is why so many people out there loved it... har har har.


-- Joe Hawkins

[BongPig]

Any coder will always say they are not interested in huge titles. Thats understandable as they dont get off on huge graphics and effects.

However, im not one of them. HalfLife was a game that made me want to give up. It was sooo awsome at the time, due to amazing art direction and scripting, I knew this type of game is simply not possible for me. I would like to try, but I dont want to work in a big team again.

More recently, Chronicals or Riddick left me with a real pang for doing something big. Something movie like.

I certainly could not swap these type of game for whatever rubbish was keeping me amused on my old C64 or Amiga. No way.

So, heres one vote in the 'yes' box. Yes, I would sometimes like to make games I simply cannot. How depressing is that?

[Diodor Bitan]

Original post by moonpxi
Did this ever hit you??

Yes, but not anymore. These days I get hit more when I find great games I could have done and didn't.

[papillon]

... I'm interested in big titles because I am an RPG freak and it is *somewhat* difficult to create Torment on your own as one tiny little indie. :)

[GhostRik]

Did this ever hit you?? The felling that you wish to do a big, a great project, beyond dreams, and know that you can't?? I know that I am starting out, and everything, but this somehow depressed me a lot.

For me, it's a mixed feeling of nostalgia. 20-odd years ago it was much easier to see an at-that-time "big game" and then whip up something similar on your own computer that people could actually have fun playing, despite your limitations compared to the original. I even made some spare change like that (once upon a time...). Nowadays it's a lot more difficult.

[moonpxi]

Ok...I guess I need a quick clarification of my position on The Sims, in order to move on: ok, the game gets old too fast. Taking those little people to the bathroom everytime is a pain in the butt!! However, something that I liked to do, and I guess I might be a frustrated architecture, was to build houses...and, well, it also got old fast.

However, in The Sims 2 they had a somewhat "brilliant" idea. No, not the whole aging thing. What I mean is the whole new camera movement (or what they call MovieMaker). This, they did superbly well, based on a few movies and traillers I saw around. I suspect a lot of buzz around in Machinima (http://www.machinima.com/).

As for working into a big development studio. Well, I must admit I am not sure, since I never worked in one and, from my geographical position, my chances are pretty slim. However, I do feel that I want to build my own company, with my own ideas, from ground up. Even if I can't ever get in the same level as Halflife 2, if I ever do one game and only one person would play and buy it, I guess I would be extremly happy!!

[techbear]

Having actually worked on the Sims, I can attest to its internal complexity and the huge amount of content that's gone into it (especially with its never-ending add-on packs). I know that I simply don't have the resources myself to replicate it. And I think it's VERY fun.

However, I'm not the least bit depressed. Possibly because I've worked on the big projects for the big shops in the past, so I don't harbor any illusions about how great it would be. :) All their art and coding assets counterbalance their inability to innovate (generally speaking).

My creative direction was never about those big projects, where the intent is not to be groundbreaking and unique. Those games NEED 10 artists and 2 years to provide enough content to make them fun. That doesn't mean that other games do.

As a long-time programmer, I understand that there's nothing I can't code, given enough time and effort. You can do the same. Set your goals realistically, but understand that life is a cycle, and what you might not have achieved this year, you will next year.

In short, I'm not depressed because, while I cannot do all stuff the big boys do, they DARE not do what I'm thinking of doing. :)

[ggambett]

What makes you think you can't? Do you think AAA games are made by martians? Nope, all games are made by common people.

[gmcbay]

The people dismissing The Sims as simple and just 'a game mimicking real life' should really play it before commenting here.

The game, or sandbox simulation, or whatever you want to call it, is really quite cool if you give it a chance. And from a game-design standpoint, it is absolutely brilliant, no matter how witty you think you are by trashing it.

The 10 bazillion copies sold aren't because of the hype, but rather because the game deserved it.

[Nikster]

So if you think the game is simple or mimicking real life you obviously haven't played it ?? I like your logic, also before you posted your comment I assume you actually played 'little computer people' ? that aside the technical aspect of the game is simple whether you like it or not, aka the water cooler broadcast, just because it's implimented well doesn't make it complex, but I guess everyone should think it's great because you do.

[nemo54321]

The people dismissing The Sims as simple and just 'a game mimicking real life' should really play it before commenting here.

The game, or sandbox simulation, or whatever you want to call it, is really quite cool if you give it a chance. And from a game-design standpoint, it is absolutely brilliant, no matter how witty you think you are by trashing it.

The 10 bazillion copies sold aren't because of the hype, but rather because the game deserved it.


From a design stand point the game is brilliant. The execution, interaction, life and death cycle, and customization are fantastic. Throw in the technical aspects such as visibility parameteres and AI for "inactive" Sims. But, even though it is the number one selling game of all time doesn't mean it is for everyone.

Like me.

Lastly, I did almost get back into it with the Makin' Magic add-on... it seemed like a load of trouble making fun.

-- Joe Hawkins

[Nemesis]

The people dismissing The Sims as simple and just 'a game mimicking real life' should really play it before commenting here.

The game, or sandbox simulation, or whatever you want to call it, is really quite cool if you give it a chance. And from a game-design standpoint, it is absolutely brilliant, no matter how witty you think you are by trashing it.

The 10 bazillion copies sold aren't because of the hype, but rather because the game deserved it.
That would be me! :)

I'm not claiming the Sims is simple.. I'm sure it is very complex.. it *has* to be if it is simulating social behavior and you can build houses at the very least (and I'm sure it does more than that).

As a gamer I like to be immersed in a fantastic setting not yet another reality similar to my own. I want to be a WW2 soldier fighting in Tobruk, a genetically enhanced soldier battling aliens in a planet sized halo-like structure, a mage dispensing monsters with my spells in the deeps of a mountain. The last thing I want is to repeat my own daily routine.

That said, yes, I do admit I haven't played it, and I would probably play with it for an hour or two if I were given the chance, but I am quite convinced I'd tire of it pretty quickly. The games predecessors (Railroad Tycoon, Transport Tycoon etc.) probably have simpler game mechanics but at least they allow me to do something I cannot practically do in everyday life.

I guess it's a question of personal preference really. In my case, a fantastic setting is something that needs to be in a game, otherwise, I'd simply play my own real life.

[BongPig]

Why has this thread become about Sims?
moonpxi used Sims as an example to get a question across. I thought it was an interesting question.... a bit of fantasy never hurt.

Surely more of us dream of what we could do with serious resources? Dont we? Please tell me we do?? :confused:

[Nemesis]

Umm.. I'm the main culprit behind the derailment of this thread I guess. :)

In the late 90's I had the knowledge to build games on par with the industry.. mostly platform games or shoot-em-ups in their hey-day. Eventually games started to grow beyond my reach in terms of technology and effort (also due to the fact that I had other commitments).

Yes, I did feel frustrated at first, until AAA titles eventually settled into a couple of genres, mostly FPS's, RPG's and RTS's.

It then dawned on me that there's little point in trying to compete at an industry level. Most AAA titles are usually a feast on the eyes and ears and perhaps a good script but not much more in terms of gameplay. So my answer would be: no, I have no wish to try to follow the big guys. I know I could do it in theory, but I can't be bothered working on the same game well into the next century, assuming I could live that long :)

[BongPig]

Nobody suggested you follow the big boys Nemesis.
Youre not looking at my question.

Forget what the AAA teams are doing right now. Try and think with a fresh mind.
All im asking is, what would you do if you had unlimited resources. Havent you ever wondered/dreamed of what you would try and make if there were no limits?

[moonpxi]

BongPig catched my cue!! I surely didn't mean to turn all of this into a heated discussions over The Sims!! :)

Yeah...I have it sort of clear what I could do with unlimited resources!! Would publishers publish the game? Hmmmm....not sure. Would it be a fun game?? I hope I can find it out sometime!!

[Sunshine]

All im asking is, what would you do if you had unlimited resources.

Truthfully, I would rather be a big fish in a little pond, than a little fish in a big pond. I still play big titles, but I don't think I would enjoy making them. I kinda view the big boys as a bunch of mole-men ranchers, and you get to be one of the mole-men! :eek:

But anyway, Back to the sims....... :rolleyes:

[BongPig]

Is anybody actually ready my question?

For the last time, im not suggesting anybody become EA for gods sake.

Sunshine, it shows a lack of imagination that you assume you would become like those other AAA houses if you had the same resources.
If thats what you think would happen to you, then maybe you should stay in your small pond.

O stuff it. Why am I bothering.

[Raptisoft]

BongPig:

If we had infinite resources, we'd do exactly like the AAA companies do. Here's why:

Give a kid a whole art set, nice canvas, nice easel, everything, and tell him to make some art. What does the kid paint? He paints some pretty generic art with the tools available.

Now give the kid a piece of tinfoil and a coathanger and tell him to make some art. Chances are, you'll get something...unusual Nine times out of ten it'll be junk, but then the tenth time, you'll get something that'll make other people start playing with coathangers and tinfoil.

That's what indie gamers are. All genius is born of limitation. Take the limits away, and you take the genius away.

An indie says "well. I don't have time to do a whole Diablo II. So I'll start with a mini Diablo. Shewt, I don't have time to do an inventory system. Let's see, I'll just make it so you press a button and that handles all your inventory. Crap, I don't wanna do whole conversation systems. Argh, I don't have the resources to do all those graphics, gotta think of something."

And boom, in the end, you'll see something weird and different. Watch Popcap for a release in the next couple months, you'll see what I mean.

[BongPig]

Nonsense.
Give me the resources and I certainly wouldnt follow the standard AAA route. No way.

Ive got concepts right now that im dying to try, but know I cant. Even if we didnt hire any extra people, we would still need in the region of 1.5 years to put it together. We simply cant support ourselves at this stage for that long.

If somebody set me free, and removed any external limits such as cash and time, I would dive into one of several ideas i have.

None of them are anything like any AAA team is doing anywhere.

That argument that limited resources bring out the best in peoples skills is old hat. Its probably something indies tell themselves all the time to feel better about thier work ( and lack of resources! ).
If the quality and originality of someones work would go downhill with more resources then thats a problem with the individual.

If I had the resources I honestly believe I would kick ass! :)

[Coyote]

I'd probably do exactly the games I'm doing now. But bigger, badder, triple-A, with named voice actors and TONS more content. But I don't know if they'd be more fun.

I have a list of games I want to create as an indie. They'd probably be the same games I'd do if I had unlimited time and resources. In fact, I once graded all these projects by their risk & resource factors.

One of those is a MMORPG. That's one I'll probably never do as an indie. If I had the budget, people, and time, I'd probably do the MMORPG project. Just like everybody else and their freaking DOG is doing right now.

[Rod Hyde]

All I'm asking is, what would you do if you had unlimited resources? Haven't you ever wondered/dreamed of what you would try and make if there were no limits?
It is an interesting question. The answer I've reached is that imagination is the only limited resource. Otherwise there are no limits.

Think about it. A good book is a good book, irrespective of whether it is made into a movie or not. The entry point to writing a book is a combination of writing talent and imagination.

Beyond a certain budget, a good movie is a good movie, irrespective of whether it is black and white, or was made last year or was made in 1943. Again, the entry point to creating a good movie is a combination of writing talent and imagination.

Similarly, we're probably getting to a point at which beyond a certain budget, a good game is a good game. It strikes me that the entry point to writing a good game is ... well, you probably guessed it by now.

The sad thing is that half of us, given unlimited finances, would probably sit down and write another 3d engine, the equivalent of your favourite author becoming a lumberjack for a better understanding of the paper that their words will be printed on.

--- Rod

[tentons]

The 10 bazillion copies sold aren't because of the hype, but rather because the game deserved it.
Hear, hear! It's really a good game and the simulation in it is not simplistic.

I think good tools will help allow indies to create "bigger" projects with less resources. I hope to figure out how one day, as that's the direction I'm going. But if I don't ever create a sprawling epic, I'll still have fun along the way doing something I love instead of working for the Man.

So don't EVER be depressed that you are doing what you love and making money at it, too! :)

[tentons]

I'd probably do exactly the games I'm doing now. But bigger, badder, triple-A

This begs the question, what defines a "AAA" title? Is it production values? Amount of content? Gameplay?

And why can't an indie produce a "AAA" title without a million-dollar budget? ;)

[moonpxi]

This begs the question, what defines a "AAA" title? Is it production values? Amount of content? Gameplay?

Or is it just a battery type?
:D