Up & Coming Games at Grab.com

[tc_bobo]

We used to have an Indie Games section on Grab.com

When Grab 2.0 launch two months ago, we elected to call it Homemade Games, which as expected disappointed you guys.

The name change was made for the sake of our users (2.96m in April according Media Metrix/comScore) to understand the concept of independent games.

While that has made a difference and traffic is up to the channel, fewer indie devs have submitted their games.

So, we're hoping to bring back more indie dev since traffic is increasing rapidly to the channel, and as a result we're looking at changing the name once again (for the final time) to: Up & Coming Games

Your thoughts?

Thanks!

[Bmc]

definetly an improvement over homemade games

[Mark Fassett]

As a user, that would make me think that it's just a page with a list of games that are due for release. The games aren't Up & Coming - they're already there. Why not just call it "More Games" - since you have "Featured" there for the titles you promote.

[Ricardo C]

When Grab 2.0 launch two months ago, we elected to call it Homemade Games, which as expected disappointed you guys.

If it was expected, why do it? ;)


So, we're hoping to bring back more indie dev since traffic is increasing rapidly to the channel, and as a result we're looking at changing the name once again (for the final time) to: Up & Coming Games

"Up and Coming", to me, brings to mind the image of a developer struggling and hoping to get to the "big leagues", as if every indie developer deep down yearns to join the machine and become another corporate-funded developer.

I wouldn't use a label at all, aside from genre. Games are games, and many low-budget developers are perfectly able to produce material as visually polished as their AAA counterparts. If a label MUST be used, then just call them what they are: Independent Games.

[Sirrus]

How much traffic does the indie/homemade/up&coming section usually get monthly?

[tc_bobo]

Ricardo, it's all about finding a happy medium between the end user and the indie devs. How to market to the end user.

The whole idea in changing the name of Indie to Homemade was to attract more users to that area and that has been accomplished. If changing the name of the area to Up & Coming, which I believe users will relate to even more than Homemade, will bring in more indie devs, we want to do.

I realize we're never going to please everyone. Hopefully you'll find this suggestion an olive branch to the indie community regarding their disappointment with the name "Homemade".

"Grab.com's Dev Zone is dedicated to fostering the independent games movement. Large or small, all developers are welcome to showcase their games and company here."

http://www.grab.com/games/homemade/devzone/

The #1 game on the "Homemade" Channel is getting about 6500 views a day.

And if you add your game, let me know - I'll make sure it's featured. :)

[tc_bobo]

I will mention that you can find this (see below) displayed above the fold on the "Homemade Games" (Up & Coming Games) channel of Grab.com

"Homemade Games, also known as Indie Games, are new, innovative games from independent developers."

http://www.grab.com/games/homemade/

Thanks again!

[soniCron]

While I think nobody here is upset with your contribution to the community, names such as "Homemade" and "Up and Coming" are misleading to the average visitor. If something is "Homemade", it tends to be of fairly low quality and not usually worth anyone but the creator's time (generally speaking, of course). And while I think "Up and Coming" is close, I don't think it quite makes the point you're trying to. Something closer to "Buried Treasures" or "Diamonds in the Rough" are not only more catchy, but far more descriptive. Either way, it's a very nice site! ;)

[Musenik]

"Homemade Games, also known as Indie Games, are new, innovative games from independent developers."
I hope this board is willing to give you as much credit as guff. Grab has been very in-touch with this board, and I really appreciate it. I'm sorry you picked Homemade, but Grab was clear about its reasons.

Right now I'm liking the 'more games' suggestion, short, sweet, no fuss. Games is games. Let the games sort themselves out. However, I admit to admiring the touch of class, like the term indy has taken for films. I'm not sure Grab's visitors would realize the similarity.

How about: 'Pioneering Games'?

to sofistikated???

[Jim Buck]

I would say to just choose the name that works out the best with the customers.. and then if the indie developers have some issue with it, show them the before/after numbers. They'll shut up pretty quickly and start submitting games again. :)

[svero]

I would say it doesn't matter what we think of the label. Some people will complain about this and that and threaten not to submit etc.. but at the end of the day you only need 2 things to guarantee submissions.

1) A reasonable user interface/set of rules to submit
2) Traffic that makes it worth submitting

And the first 1st one is relative to the 2nd. That is.. I'd jump through hoops to submit somewhere that really produced sales, although I'd rather not. I'll do next to no work to submit to a site that doesn't generate sales.

Your users come first. And your users should be the visitors/viewers of the site, not the devs. If the site is a great place to visit then you'll have more traffic and in the end that's what devs need, not some ego-stroking label.

That being said I think "home-made" and "up-and-coming" are poor label choices because neither really describes that section well to your users and both seem somewhat derogatory and will turn off your users.

I would recommend something more like "Downloadable Games" if that makes sense (i know there's quite a few web games so maybe not), but at any rate I think a better choice exists for people browsing your site. Again, what we think of the label doesnt matter so long as your real "customers", the readers/visitors like it.

[Vectrex]

well at first I didn't like 'homemade' (I thought that was like calling Donnie Darko a homemade film :) ), but from the users point of view it might garner some special attention and interest (as alot of 'normal' people like the idea of making games)
I do like the seperation though regardless of the title. Just can't think of a good one right now ;)

[Andy]

Malcolm,

Your support guys don't answer request. I've asked them by two months ago how to remove all our games from that "Homemade" section - no any answer, no any action.
So, may I just use the chance to ask your help here. Could you please help to remove our games from your Grab.com site.

Thanks,

[arcadetown]

Your wish is my command as always Malcolm. Just submitted our latest flash game over there for ya, Midnight Strike (http://www.grab.com/games/screenshots.php?game=1163).

I do wish people here would better support Grab/Intermix for providing such a great asset to the indie community. I find it quite perplexing that people here always compalin about not having such a resource available and when Grab makes it available (for free to boot!) they find a zillion reasons to tear it apart and not support it. Grab should be commended for providing this!

My 2 cents, something along the lines of "More Great Games", "User Game Submissions", "Great Game Submissions", or so forth.

[arcadetown]

I've asked them by two months ago how to remove all our games from that "Homemade" sectionI believe it's pretty simple, from your submissions panel there use the "hide" button.

[Cuculain]

Well I did start the original thread complaining about the term Homemade, but while I still don't like it I think Malcolm has made a good case for their decision.

As an aside: It would be wonderful if you occassionally removed all the zero ratings from users whose only comment is that the game should be playable online.

[Andy]

I believe it's pretty simple, from your submissions panel there use the "hide" button.

Duh! My dumbness. :)
Thanks Brian!

[James C. Smith]

When I saw the name of this topic "Up & Coming Games at Grab.com " I thought it was going to talk about games that will be released soon on grab.com. In other words, I think the name is confusing if it going to be used for games that are available now.

[Savant]

When I saw the name of this topic "Up & Coming Games at Grab.com " I thought it was going to talk about games that will be released soon on grab.com. In other words, I think the name is confusing if it going to be used for games that are available now.
Exactly what I thought as well. "Oh, this must be a list of games that are going to appear on grab.com soon..."

[Cuculain]

Yeah, I thought it was misleading too but not being a native speaker I figured it was best not to mention it.

[Yossarian]

Why not try to tap into the customer's desire to feel elitist, and promote indie games as "The Underground Gaming Scene". Or any naming that uses "underground" and promotes a more mysterious and exclusive feel to it.

That is the same feel that the music scene uses to great effect. Music nuts absolutely love to know that they were the first to get in on a scene, and the same could work with gamers. Promote them as the independents and visionaries, making games that are fun, *for* fun.

[Sharpfish]

Why not try to tap into the customer's desire to feel elitist, and promote indie games as "The Underground Gaming Scene". Or any naming that uses "underground" and promotes a more mysterious and exclusive feel to it.

That is the same feel that the music scene uses to great effect. Music nuts absolutely love to know that they were the first to get in on a scene, and the same could work with gamers. Promote them as the independents and visionaries, making games that are fun, *for* fun.


unfortunately, the biggest market for these games are not the gaming equal of "music nuts".. I think "underground" sounds sinister to these customers, not professional, not reassuring.. would you hand your credit card details over to something that is "Underground".

Obviously for you and I, we know what it is about but to the unnassuming "soccer mom" - underground sounds bad.

"Homemade games" sounds extremely amatuerish and again instills no confidence in the products.

"Up and comming" is misleading as pointed out above and I can't see how it really applies to small scale software development.

I know it is hard to come up with a catch-all that sounds right and pleases everyone but there are plenty of portals that manage to not sound "wrong", why label anything? why make a distinction that only detracts from the perception of the "indie products"... why not just call them what they are... "GAMES"!

[BinaryMoon]

I thought the idea of the site was really good but having submitted two games I'm not impressed. I'm convinced the main problem is the intrusive message box that essentially says 'you're downloading a virus - it's not our fault'. When you launched the last update you said you would look at changing this but it hasn't been changed at all. It makes me think twice about downloading from your site and I'm an advanced user who is quite happy to download from other sites. I know from the page view to download ratio that I've had on Grab that the amount of downloads is nothing like it is on other download sites so something is wrong somewhere.

Regardless of my feeling the amount of new submissions is bound to slow down. When you first set it up you had submissions from all the established games and now you have to wait for new content to be created before people will give you the games.

To me the term 'up and coming' means 'preview' but the games in this section are not preview but full versions.

[tc_bobo]

And the site went down and my lengthy post was submitted, yet apparently lost. :eek:

So here's the short version:

Binary, good point and I will bring it up with legal once again.

Cuculain, it's tricky situation when it comes to user reviews. I do cringe when I see stuff like, "this suck, I ain't downloading - 1 star".

Andy, did you find the "HIDE" button? I apologize for your CS issues - That should not be happening. I will talk to CS.

As long as the users come, maybe we should stick with Homemade. It's all about the users, right? If a dev feels slighted by it, maybe a handful of sales will change his mind. Aren't most indie games made at home? :)

For those of you who have added games in the last 24, I'll make sure they're featured over the next couple of weeks.

Will mention that stats and user counts (web games) are having issues right now. Bugzilla has the bug and hopefully a programmer will get to it soon.

I appreciate your feedback on the subject. If I asked Homemade or Up & Coming - I'm guessing I'd get a ton of "Neither" answers. Based on that, then it would stay as homemade.

Thanks!

[Andy]

Andy, did you find the "HIDE" button? I apologize for your CS issues - That should not be happening. I will talk to CS.


I was so dissapointed with such "Homemade" name for our games that that was preventing me to accept anything around. :D
Thanks to Brian I've found that hide buttons and removed all our games from the site now. So I feel much better now - thanks to you too. ;)

[berserker]

Actually I like the term "Homemade". I don't think it would turn off the user from the game alone. The game itself has much more chances to turn off user so IMHO "homemade" is fine :)

[berserker]

And BTW professional look & feel of the site won't make me feel that there should be crap here, so I think overall impression of the site compensates the negative meaning of "homemade" if any ;)

[BinaryMoon]

tc - thanks for answering. Hopefully somehting will happen this time.

Personally I don't think homemade is all that bad.

Just noticed the comment on reviews as well. I have had one bad review which said my game should be playable in a web browser. Obviously that would be nice for all games but I don't have the time to convert all my games for the web, and some of them aren't capable of being web based (at least not easily - they're 3d).

Maybe if developers could have a 'report this comment' button that let's them explain why they think the comment should be removed? That way it would be at your discretion so you don't get people deleting everything negative.

EDIT - just checked and the person that said the game should be playable in a browser posted on the forum where there is a report inappropriate content link. Not sure it's inappropriate though, it's a tech issue rather than an abuse/ offensive type issue

[svero]

I think the term homemade is bad for your users because it implies "bad" or "unsafe to download"

The thing with downloadable games is that some are made at home and some aren't, some contain spyware and some don't, some are made by pros and some by hobbyists, some are terrible and some are better than what you'll find at your local retail outlet. So there's not really a catch-all phrase that describes them all that a regular user would understand. They're just "Games"

[berserker]

One thing however I really don't like is popup that pops when you click download button. This feels like it's warning you about some kind of spyware or trojans which is very bad. I beleive if you confirmed listing of some game you've tried it by yourself and is sure that there are no destuctive bits.

[soniCron]

Cuculain, it's tricky situation when it comes to user reviews. I do cringe when I see stuff like, "this suck, I ain't downloading - 1 star".
A very possible solution would be to offer a 0 Star rating and just not tally the 0's. If any game is truely that wretched that someone would give it a 0 rating, I can't imagine you'd even host it. And frankly, I don't think anybody would ever notice.

[Chris Evans]

I do wish people here would better support Grab/Intermix for providing such a great asset to the indie community. I find it quite perplexing that people here always compalin about not having such a resource available and when Grab makes it available (for free to boot!) they find a zillion reasons to tear it apart and not support it. Grab should be commended for providing this!




While I really appreciate what they're trying to attempt, I think some of the critisms were valid.

I think the Indie section at Grab had a great start back in September/October. But while they were preparing for Grab 2.0 (which was unknown to most devs at the time), their developer support/relations started to slip quite a bit. I know several developers who never got answers from Grabs support address, the staff started neglecting the dev message boards, and I personally still have technical issues that are unresolved to this day.

I hold nothing agaiinst the guys at Grab, but I got the impression that the Indie section was just an after-thought and was basically on auto-pilot. So I started to treat it just like any other download submissoin site. When 2.0 finally launched, the new "Homemade" title didn't help matters, but I don't think that's the biggest issue.

I'm with Svero, find a name that best describes the games for your customers (I don't think "Homemade" is it). As for pleasing developers, just answer support e-mails and try to resolve technical issues, nevermind feature requests. Keep traffic up and maybe allow developers to report "junk" reviews.

I think the most valuable thing Grab provides is not necessarily download/sales, but player feedback. I get more downloads elsewhere, but Grab has a high play/review ratio from its users. If you have a web game it's even better because you can talk to players in realtime and get feedback. This is really helpful for Indie developers.

Unfortunately, there's some long outstanding technical issues (particularly with Java and Shockwave games), so the online system doesn't work for some games even though it states so in the submission panel. This has caused some frustrations.

There's a lot of potential with the Indie section (or whatever they end up calling it), it just seems Grab has been a little half-hearted with it. But I'm glad to see Malcolm here setting things back in the right direction.

[Ricardo C]

A very possible solution would be to offer a 0 Star rating and just not tally the 0's. If any game is truely that wretched that someone would give it a 0 rating, I can't imagine you'd even host it. And frankly, I don't think anybody would ever notice.

NICE idea :D

[Cuculain]

Just wanted to say that of course I think people should be able to give poor ratings, that wasn't my point. However I looked in on Grab today and noticed that insanegrll666 or something graciously has rated a lot of games 1 star obviously without playing them. Her motive for this is to get evil karma. There are also lots of people who rate games that doesn't have an online version zero without even testing them (they say so themselves).

Graffiti and trash sometimes have to be removed before they completely overtakes their surroundings and this is similar I think. Perhaps ratings should be reserved for gold members or something.

[tc_bobo]

I love the feedback.

The "Strategy" area in Homemade Games for Grab 2.0 was a result of your comments. We've ditched Casino.

However, in the edit and add game, it still lists Casino. Although, if you select Casino it shows up in Strategy. I've filed on a bug on that.

Also, regarding Chris' .dcr issues, I've filed a formal bug on that. Apologize it's taken 8000 years to get this fixed. I'm hoping for this week, as it's always been a resource issue. I've assigned it to one of the integrators instead of a programmer.

Programmers.... :D

Thanks!

[tc_bobo]

Cuculain, I deleted her review and she also find herself in the Grab Penalty Box for abuse of the game review system.

If as a developer, you see stupid comments like that on your games, just click the "Report Inapproiate Content" on the game page. I'll see it, and now that you've made me more aware of the issue that you're having, I'll be more inclined to remove pointless reviews.

Cool?

Thanks!

[Sirrus]

I think its a great service that Malcom is offering - free coverage of any kind is always good...

The thing I think that should be considered though is the type of game that is being submitted. It seems apparent that the majority of reviews (which many people base whether they download it or not) are by thirteen year old girls :)

In any case, its great seeing you actively support the site!

[tc_bobo]

Yeah, a lot of young girls and boys are active on the Grab.com. It's definite not the majority, it's just the most vocal group.

We all know how kids are at that age, because we've been there. It's the "they like to show their ass in public" theory that I have.

With the addition of the fun section, we're bringing in more of the middle-American women. Already established and populated sites (40+) that we own are having their traffic redirected to Grab.com - It's a continual process that will occur over the next couple of years.

Funky Farm reviews cleaned up.

Thanks!

[Promaginy]

Many dev's could complain that 'homemade' sounds unprofessional, but I give Grab.com credit for at least highlighting these games as being different than your standard casual, match-3 puzzle games. These independent games don't get buried on the site and even have their own featured section. That does not happen on most other portals.

I would suggest that 'self-published' would be a better term. A 'self-published' games denotes that it was independently created, so it really is buyer-beware. Some of the stuff will be good, some of it will be bad.

[Jim Buck]

Since most people going to Grab.com will think that Grab themselves made all those games, "self-published" would be pretty meaningless. They said that "homemade" actually tested pretty well with their audience and that it's really only the indies that have a problem with it.. if it really did test well, then "homemade" it what it should be, religious arguments not withstanding. :)

[fog4711]

The grab site seems promising to me. I just registered there and will try it as a user for some time. Homemade is OK for me. I wouldn't mind submitting games under that label. Though I won't use "Homemade" on my own website. ;)

Grab people, keep up the good work :)

fog

[Yuriy O]

To me homemade games sounds really unprofessional.

Maybe homemade cookies would be okay, but homemade games does carry much value to me :)

I might be wrong.

Why not just call it the way the Industry calls them? ie "Casual Games"


But if you have a lot of people playing casual 3D shooters I will still submit one of our games! :)

[tc_bobo]

Casual Games are Bejeweled and others.

The whole point of Grab.com having a Homemade Games section is that we can spotlight those games. If we just called 'indie' games, Games, then they'd get buried.

Since there hasn't been an overwhelming response to Up & Coming, we're going to stick with Homemade.

Finally, the good news is that I have approval from legal to pull down the "pop-up" that occurs when someone clicks download of a Homemade game. :D

That change should happen sometime this week.

I've said it before, yet I really appreciate the feedback. I realize we'll never make everyone happy, yet hopefully as a whole, the indie community will find Grab.com a quality place to be with their games.

Thanks,

[Sillysoft]

I think it's great that you are here talking out stuff straight with the devs. Keep up the good work.

I made my game in my home, so I think Homemade fits anyways :cool:

[mrkwang]

I tried d/l 1 game from grab.com at now, [Belle's Beauty Boutique].

Well. My virus vaccine Avast shows me 'Adware warning'. I blocked & deleted it, of course.

Tried 2 times, all the same.

My Avast is too sensitive? Or something else?

[Olivier]

Now that's what I call a thread revival. I didn't try to download anything from them so I can't really comment.

[infrarat]

Well. My virus vaccine Avast shows me 'Adware warning'...My Avast is too sensitive? Or something else?
Hi, this is Tom Jacobson and I designed and produced Belle's Beauty Boutique for Grab.com. Since I personally created the game and wrapped it using TryMedia's DRM, I can guarantee you that there is NO adware in the game - or any games we do at Grab.com - of any kind.

I downloaded and installed the latest version of Avast! and was not able to replicate the results you spoke of. If you have any more details please let me know so I can try to figure out what's going on. Thanks!

[dozer]

I think "Homemade" is nice, but "Garagemade" will be better.

[Olivier]

Hi, this is Tom Jacobson and I designed and produced Belle's Beauty Boutique for Grab.com. Since I personally created the game and wrapped it using TryMedia's DRM, I can guarantee you that there is NO adware in the game - or any games we do at Grab.com - of any kind.
I don't know if you're responsible for the following, but since you developed the game I wanted to let you know the issue I was faced with:

Before the first run the game asks for the latest version of the Flash Player if you don't already have it installed. I clicked "Yes" when I was asked if I wanted to update my Flash Player now. Then my default browser which is Firefox opened and I did the update from Macromedia's website.
After that I launched Belle's Beauty Boutique again and once more I was asked to update my Flash Player.

So according to my experience the game does check for Flash Player's version under IE only, not the other browers. I think that's a bad practice.
I also came to the conclusion that Macromedia's Flash Player installer isn't cross platform, there seem to be browser specific installers. That's even worse in my opinion.

In the end some people who don't use IE as their default browser won't be able to play Belle's Beauty Boutique, because they won't notice the problem I described above.
Granted most people use IE, but I'm surprised that this kind of issue can arise with such a broadly distributed game and browser plugin.

EDIT: Welcome on board Tom! :)