Nintendo Revolution claims to enable "Indie Games"

[Hiro_Antagonist]

from http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050517/latu045.html:

Freedom of design: A dynamic development architecture equally accommodates both big-budget, high-profile game "masterpieces" as well as indie games conceived by individual developers equipped with only a big idea.

If this is true, and if they really plan on enabling indie developers, then they will almost certainly have to change their licensing practices.

But since they've announced an online network that is built to handle (among many other things) paid downloads, perhaps they will simply allow these indie games to be distributed online with less hoops to jump through than their traditional retail authorization process.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[luggage]

Do they mean Indie as in our kind of indie? Or Indie as in Lionhead kind of indie?

[Hiro_Antagonist]

Do they mean Indie as in our kind of indie? Or Indie as in Lionhead kind of indie?
Well, who knows for sure, but the quote "indie games conceived by individual developers equipped with only a big idea" seems to describe us instead of Lionhead...

-Hiro_Antagonist

[PoV]

Very exciting. Who'd a thunk the indie revolution would involve the Nintendo Revolution. ;)

Very excited here. :D

[Sharpfish]

Yeah, all we need now is the free dev-kits ;)

[Jim Buck]

Yeah, I would wait until the disseminated info gets beyond the "E3 announcement" stage before seeing if this really is what it sounds like it is. Not only that, what they say now and what ends up in the box could be two different things entirely. Not to be negative, but such claims should totally be taken with a grain of salt. To do what we think they mean would require a lot more than you would think.

[Pyabo]

Historically, Nintendo has had some of the tightest control in terms of licensing and deciding what games go on their platform. This would be a complete about-face for them. I'll believe it when I see it.

Anyone else seen this "Revolution" video?
http://news.gaminghorizon.com/media2/1116039720.1050.html

Everything I've read about it (not much) says that it's fake, but DAMN... the production values alone tell you that it was done by a professional. If it is fake, then someone had a lot of time on their hands.

[Bmc]

It is probably just something similar to XBox Live Arcade, trying to get some of that casual games money.

[Sharpfish]

Yeah, I have a soft spot for nintendo.. but I can't see them offering something for nothing to indie game devs. I imagine they would just take the cream of the crop and offer them a very small percentage. Of course this could be a huge market (similar to PC portals) but I doubt they would allow too much freedom.

As a console though - I want one... a combined retro/semi-future machine in one even with the comparatively low "spec". I think it was wise of them not to compete on specs but play to their strength, which has always been games more than anything else - now I guess they can earn a few $$$ from retro players instead of emulator users getting it all for free.

It's been a busy day in next gen land.. lot's of hype and excitment, accusations of FMV abound (apparently a Killing zone and motorstorm were pre-rendered as they looked)... however Mark Rein from Epic (who has been known to speak a fair amount of b*ll in his time) is convinced they are representative of the machine.

I think I will avoid all next gen news for a month now and see how it all looks then, before getting carried away again ;)

[Hiro_Antagonist]

It is probably just something similar to XBox Live Arcade, trying to get some of that casual games money.
This is what I'm guessing. I think they'll jump through hoops to clearly state that the games available in this manner are *not* subject to the same strictness of quality (or more appropriately, budgets) as traditional boxed retail Nintendo games.

I agree with Jim Buck -- only time will tell how this will really shake out. But in my opinion, if they're saying this as part of their (very limited) initial press release, it's a fundamental part of their vision for the Revolution's online component. The easiest explanation for this is simply that they will have something very analagous to Xbox Live Arcade.

Also worth noting: They're also putting a lot of lip service into how easy it is to code for the Revolution. But unless it runs Direct3D or some other common PC graphics API, it can't be *that* easy, can it?

As someone else pointed out, the dev kits for console systems alone tend to be prohibitively expensive for indies with our budgets. They would most definitely have to make a dev kit available for free or an extremely small price in order for their claims to be true as we interpret them. Perhaps it's a software-only dev kit, and/or the only hardware necessities (controllers?) will be USB?

-Hiro_Antagonist

[soniCron]

But unless it runs Direct3D or some other common PC graphics API, it can't be *that* easy, can it?
Being an OpenGL programmer and ex-DirectX programmer, I'd have to say it can be that easy as long as it's *not* Direct3D. ;) All bashing aside, you may be on to something. It's entirely possible (unless someone knows otherwise) they'll adopt a common API. No chance of it being Direct3D, obviously. But possibly OpenGL support? That'd be great!

[Sharpfish]

Well an answer to that could be their virtual console technology. A box full o' emulators in the revolution. The GBA is a console of more diminuative and simpler specs but it's pretty easy to get stuff up and running for that in software. (check out a very basic game demo I did a few years ago - use an emulator if you don't have the hardware for it:)
http://www.pdroms.de/file_details.php?fn=1638


Basically, I am saying it depends on the games that one would develop for it. If we could run it in "super Nes" mode for instance then it is basically sprites and blitting and buffering and registers etc... or even if it worked similar to GBA but in full screen and with more memory for sprites etc.

Of course there would be the GC emulation or Full Revolution style development and THIS is where things would go a bit wonky. There is stuff out there to enable software dev for gc but no official home based hardware. Maybe the revolution will itself be the dev kit usuable with a "licensed software switch" or something?

Lots of ideas on how they could do it - but controlling the content would be a massive task. Imagine someone releases a porn simulator on a nintendo console.. the mother of the 9 year old who "accidently downloaded the demo" won't care that it was developed by "seedyproductions.com" (hope that doesn't exist lol), they will just know it was "on their nintendo console", and Nintendo have always been very precious with their hardware and what is acceptable on it.

Exciting if it means what we hope it means - otherwise it is just another way for them to bring in revenue for their interest. And they didn't mention money - what is to say they will not allow you to SELL the content but only give it away, like it is an honour to work on the console? (like EULAS stipulate in many FPS PC games that you can mod/map for)

[luggage]

If you think Direct3D isn't easy then I'd love to see you what you say about some consoles. PS2, PS1 and Saturn spring to mind.

[soniCron]

If you think Direct3D isn't easy then I'd love to see you what you say about some consoles. PS2, PS1 and Saturn spring to mind.
LOL! Good point there!

[PoV]

Man, the PS1 was a great platform to work on. Sure it was no OpenGL API, but it's a heck of a lot nicer to work with than say, the Windows API. All the complaining from the days of the old was all because the old SNES and Genesis developers didn't know their 3D maths.

Ok, the PS2's rather heavy as I don't recall their being an API, but if you dabble with the GBA it's not so bad.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I have to agree with Jim and Hero. Also, one of the things I think Jim was referring to is that many indies don't have any experience with what it takes to get a console title approved today.

It's not done when you say it’s done. You have a huge list of technical requirements that the game conform to, down to the very phrasing used for common game actions. And then you have the very strict testing that a console title undergoes, (such as running for 48 hours without any memory leaks or crashes, handling a corrupted data file, etc).

I would think some sort of dev hardware would be necessary, and there will be some $$$ barrier to entry, but I do think it offers a potentially great opportunity for some indies.

[svero]

I donno.. Nintendo has always impressed me as a company that really does strive to innovate. Maybe they see this as a possible way to fight ps3 and xbox360. They're definitely an underdog. Would be nice to see them change their licensing practices somewhat and really allow individual demos a crack at nintendos market. I guess it's all too much to hope for :-)

[PoV]

Personally, the philosophy behind the Nintendo DS of innovative unique games really clicked with me. Heck, within' a couple months of coming back from E3 I left the larger studio I was at. Now, I'm at a friends startup studio where we're doing DS development, but our project is a large scale licensed project for the system. I guess I was kidding myself to think that just working on the DS alone would give me what I wanted.

Once I got a better feel for the business, I guess I stopped doubting an indie or independent team could get on a console, simply because I've seen it. There's a former Digital Extremes guy in town we've been in contact with (we're the former Digital Illusions guys), that has a kit on loan from Microsoft. His project when we last spoke was him and maybe 2 artist, working remotely I might add. And he's hardly a business person I'll also add. Another guy from St.Catherines (whom worked with some people now with us) actually assembled an art team, without a main programmer, and acquired PS2 kits from Sony and some sort of Renderware license (unlicensed license of sorts). Unfortunately in his case, he recently shut down the operation and took a job at Ubisoft, but still. And everyone knows/should know the Behemoth/Alien Hominid story (May's Game Developer Magazine has a postmortem), despite some indie's opinions of their indieness. It's a good one I might add.

The Xbox Live Arcade stuff, many of us know about it, and even some of are even involved in it. I'm sure many of us are scoffing it off for one reason or another, as it's in a way a sort of public secret, and people don't think their invited.

As I see it, Nintendo's little hint in the press release there, this is a formal invitation.

[digriz]

Maybe they've come to the realisation that Bedroom coders and small outfits can extend the life of a console.

I mean before PC's began to take off seriously the big gaming machines were amigas, c64 & spectrum etc.

It could be that nintendo are trying to reclaim some of that. It could be something as simple as a cable linking the new box to a pc and downloading exe's made using their sdk.

Look how the gba & xbox homebrew market has grown. Most of the apps and games out there that are homebrew have been made with custom libs. Mainly because it's almost impossible to get the proper sdk's without Nintendo giving them to you.

If Nintendo are allowing homebrew software on their new console, it would be fantastic and i applaud them.

[Sharpfish]

I agree about the requirements - anyone who has been in the game industry will know about the TRCS and TCRS and the submission to the console mfctr test/approval team... hoping they don't find minor fault or even worse a hang - not pretty but there for a good reason (to keep a standard).

A smaller set of guidelines for "indie" development would be a good thing as it would raise general quality in the small details like screen safe areas, controller usage, general usability and system suitability, of course there is no magic "filter for rubbish games" has we found out last generation (Esp on the PS2)

I guess we just wait and see how it turns out with Nintendo..

[Anthony Flack]

I think that opening up the Revolution to indie developers is a very good idea (for them I mean). And a clever move that pre-empts a lot of the shit that you know is going to hit the fan in the game industry. A revolution indeed. Like a return to sanity in an industry that's gone totally over the edge.

I've been bored and uninspired (even revolted) to hear about the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3. But the more I find out about the Revolution... small! Simple! Looks nice! Probably much cheaper! Backwards compatible all the way back to the freakin' NES! All set for downloadable games! Possibly indie-friendly! the more I think I would love one.

And imagine if Nintendo were finally generous with their back catalogue this time around? Being the underdog, they just might. An affordable, unobtrusive little box that gives you access to Nintendo's entire history... if they play their cards right, it sounds like an essential purchase to me.

[Spaceman Spiff]

The downside of Nintendo opening up their back catalog is that we (the indies) will be competing against that... The old games are small enough to go the network distribution method and there are reasons they may want to go that way -- no physical duplication costs, transmission sizes are very small, consumers already know the back catalog well, and no need to cannibalize retail shelf space away from the modern games for the system.

[Anthony Flack]

We always were competing against that. I don't see it as a downside; we either do better, or we fail. Sounds fair to me. Indie developer tough love.

[Spaceman Spiff]

We always were competing against that. I don't see it as a downside; we either do better, or we fail. Sounds fair to me. Indie developer tough love.

Well, yes and no. Sure people can play their old favorites on emulators, but they can't really buy them new and you are not directly competing against them for dollars (or Euros, etc). Nintendo can/could sell the original NES Super Mario Brothers 3 via the same on-line "store" as it sells your game. I'm not trying to be discouraging, just realistic about that venue could be like.

[GBGames]

Oh, you mean Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros 3? Or Super Mario All-Stars before that? I think Indies will do just fine.

[digriz]

The downside of Nintendo opening up their back catalog is that we (the indies) will be competing against that...

We're already competing against Mame anyway, i don't think it would be that much of an issue.

[Abscissa]

We're already competing against Mame anyway, i don't think it would be that much of an issue.
I don't think it would be a major issue either, but I'm not sure Mame is a good comparison. The Nintendo brand is known, recognized, and trusted by a lot of people who would have never even heared about Mame, can't figure out how to use it (even as easy as it is), are intimidated by it, or stay away from such things of "questionable morality and legality". On other words, a Nintendo service would have a MUCH larger potential audience than Mame does, even as widespread as Mame is.

[soniCron]

On other words, a Nintendo service would have a MUCH larger potential audience than Mame does, even as widespread as Mame is.
I think the service might even be beneficial to us. If people are willing to spend money downloading old Nintendo games (which remains to be seen), it also means they're somewhat willing to buy games in more classical genres (read: non-super-ultra-realistic-blood-pixel-shader-EXTREEEEEME!!!!). It may even shine the light on us as possible competitors with our similar gameplay, but improved graphics and sound.

[Hiro_Antagonist]

If people are willing to spend money downloading old Nintendo games (which remains to be seen)
I don't think this remains to be seen. I think customers have proven they'll shill out insane amounts of money for classic/retro titles.

Classic/Retro games are quite popular right now, and Nintendo specifically has been making a killing re-selling insanely low-budget games for what is, in my opinion, *way* too much money.

As a consumer, I'm hoping the prices on these titles are much lower than the Classic NES series. I mean, seriously: $20 for a game that has already turned a hefty profit over a decade ago? $20 for a game who's budget is a tiny fraction of a modern $20 game? $20 for a game where probably 95+% of the people buying it had ALREADY bought it over a decade ago?

Presumably the price will be much cheaper on the Revolution online thingy than in stores -- after all, you're no longer paying for a printed manual, manufactured cartridge, box/artwork, distribution cost, retail overhead, etc. Then again, if Nintendo thinks it can get $20 per classic game, who's to say they won't keep charging that?

But while I'm hoping for low prices as a consumer, I'm hoping for high prices as an indie -- the higher the prices on those retro titles, the more competitive our games will seem in comparison with their inevitable price points of $20-or-so.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[soniCron]

I don't think this remains to be seen. I think customers have proven they'll shill out insane amounts of money for classic/retro titles.
I'm worried, however, that this is just another fad, and only time will tell whether classic games can continue to be sold forever. Look at the movie industry. Age is inversely proportionate to units sold (for the most part). But then, look at books. There are still hundred year old books that sell without a problem. Games and movies are more closely related, however, than games and books. They're dependent on certain levels of technology to provide a somewhat immersive experience. On the other hand, games are about having fun, which shouldn't require a high-technology. I just think we'll have to see if we're headed towards another video game industry crash (which I think we are).

But while I'm hoping for low prices as a consumer, I'm hoping for high prices as an indie -- the higher the prices on those retro titles, the more competitive our games will seem in comparison with their inevitable price points of $20-or-so.
I couldn't agree with you more. Let 'em jack up those prices!

[Jim Buck]

I wasn't referring to the TRC process, but that is also an issue. PC people have to worry about non-fixed hardware - console developers have an edge there.. but the approval process and getting past TRC is QUITE a leap that PC people don't have to worry about at all.

What I was referring to, though, is what *Nintendo* has to have in place to support this type of thing - there are *many* business and technical issues in opening up this type of thing. I would *love* to see this open on some console (I had hopes, for obvious reasons, that the PSP would have this), but it's a huge thing for a console manufacturer to get right.

[soniCron]

In this article (http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/02/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm), Miyamoto discusses his dislike for current games.
There's not a lot I want to play now. A lot of the games out there are just too long.
He then goes on to comment that the Revolution aspires to be the platform for family gaming:

We asked ourselves 'why would a family need or want to have a gaming console?' The answer is what's driving development of the Revolution.What he misses, he said, are games you can pick up and play – something the company hopes to accomplish with its next generation home console, currently code-named "Revolution".
Could this tie in to the claim Nintendo made recently about supporting independent developers? Are the makers of the more "casual" genres going to be the target of Nintendo's future gaming system?

[Anthony Flack]

I doubt it. I agree wholeheartedly with Miyamoto's sentiments, but I'm no great fan of the "casual" games, either. Somehow, I don't think Miyamoto is looking to the casual game developers to provide the next generation of Nintendo games... especially since he's looking for innovation.

I would expect he's thinking more along the lines of pick up and play games like Mariokart.

[Sparks]

But then...isn't Warioware for the DS just a huge collection of low-end indie games ?

[soniCron]

Somehow, I don't think Miyamoto is looking to the casual game developers to provide the next generation of Nintendo games... especially since he's looking for innovation.

I would expect he's thinking more along the lines of pick up and play games like Mariokart.
I guess my comment was unclear. I meant "casual" genres such as arcade and puzzle games, not the "casual genre", such as Bejeweled, Luxor, etc. I know there's a thin line between the two, but "the" casual genre tends to house games with little content, whereas "a" casual genre, such as an arcade racing, like Mario Kart, has more content but is just as "pick up and go".

[Pete]

I think Nintendo are leading the charge with titles like Nintendogs and Electroplankton on the DS, I'm not sure if you'd classify them as casual games as they come outside of the bounds of what we've seen before (I define casual games as the usual genres Puzzle/Breakout etc). But stuff like Nintendogs has very broad appeal.

Unfortunately most Indies (me included soon) seem to restrict themselves to these rigid (casual game) genres Puzzle/Breakout/Space Shooters as much as the AAA titles do to there FPS/RTS/FIFA.

Lets hope that Nintendo are coming up with some new stuff to blow our minds that’s further outside the established genres, that'll leave plenty of room for Indies (if they open up their dev and distribution) and standard AAA stuff.

Whichever way it goes it’s great that they’re acknowledging the fact that the industry is heading into trouble and a actually doing something about it.

[Anthony Flack]

Are the makers of the more "casual" genres going to be the target of Nintendo's future gaming system?


Sorry, I thought you were wondering whether Nintendo might look to the "casual" game developers a la PC shareware to provide the new wave of family friendly games for their system.

But I don't think most of the stuff that any of us are doing would impress someone like the Shigster very much.