More about real player names...

[Jack Norton]

check out this game:

http://www.download.com/Super-Soccer-Manager/3000-7475_4-10379456.html?tag=lst-0-3

From its description:
There are more than 350 real teams and more than 6000 real players in the game. All teams are with real logos, squads and stadiuns.

So what? they got permission from all the teams? or they just hope they don't get sued? :)
I could do the same with my games? I'm sure I'm losing sales not using real player names...

[soniCron]

I am not a lawyer.

One thing I think, is that you can use the player's names, but not the team names. As far as I know, team names are trademarks (or an equivalent), but players are just players. Since they're celebrities, you're allowed to say what you want about them/use their names at will (at least in the U.S.). Only people that aren't celebrities are protected by using their names without their consent.

I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT YOU DO WITH THIS UNEDUCATED INFORMATION!

[Barknee Holden]

I'm told that it's cool to use the names of players, but just not trademarked names like Major League Baseball, The National Football League, etc.

But I seem to recall some sports games in the past excluding certain player names - Michael Jordan was replaced with #32 in an old NBA game, for example. I'm wondering why that was...

[baegsi]

As usual: IANAL.

There're dozens of football (soccer) managment games in Germany and those who don't have a license use fake names (often a little tweaked like yabeoh instead of yeboah). All of them. Obviously, it's not allowed.

The developer of that game you mentioned uses the word "Champions League" which is definitly trademarked. So I guess he hopes to get overlooked.

Why don't you just ask someone who is responsible for that particular league you are interested in?

[luggage]

I'm pretty sure that that's illegal. If it was legal then I'm sure Pro Evolution Soccer would have used real player\team names by now.

You could always use real player names but switch vowels around and then have a 'feature' in the game where you can change one vowel for another. Let people switch them back easily. Or maybe have an unofficial 'patch' that's available?

[ManuelFLara]

Yeah, you could have an "Unofficial fansite" secretly made by you with a patch that changes fake names to real ones :-)

The problem will be let users know about it without showing it's actually made by you ;-)

[Phil Steinmeyer]

IANAL either, but I'm pretty sure that these days you must have permission from players (or the player's union) to use their names. This was not always enforced many years ago, but is now, for the big guys. Yes, you might slip your smallish shareware game under the radar, but you're A) doing something that may not be legal, and B) running the risk of getting smacked down if you're found (i.e. cease and desist or worse).

[electronicStar]

IANAL but I'm pretty sure you can't use someone's name -celebrity or not- in a game or artwork without their permission. And most players sign contracts to give exclusivities for the use of their image to the big names (EA and co).

[Diragor]

A search turned up this document on the subject, including footnote and bibliography references to more reading material.

http://www.named.org/law.html

In short, in the U.S. you are prohibited from using any person's name, likeness or other unmistakable identifying material for commercial purposes without permission. In many cases even non-commercial uses are prohibited. Lots more detail in that article.

[Pyabo]

Yeah, you could have an "Unofficial fansite" secretly made by you with a patch that changes fake names to real ones :-)

The problem will be let users know about it without showing it's actually made by you ;-)

God that's beautiful... ethically questionable, but beautiful!

[bentlegen]

Yeah, you could have an "Unofficial fansite" secretly made by you with a patch that changes fake names to real ones :-)I participate in a basketball sim league centered around this little-known software called Fast Break Basketball (http://www.sportplanet.com/fbb/). There are no official team or player names, i.e. it ships with fake ones, but it allows users to edit just about everything to their liking.

I guess it depends how hardcore your users are, and whether or not they'd go to that trouble.

[terin]

Here are two camps of legal philosophy on this issue (and I am not a lawyer, so don't listen too closely).

Camp #1: It is technically illegal to use player names and team names without consent. Furthermore it is illegal even if your PLAYERS are the ones who create them. Here is why: If we can claim that the IP of a product belongs to the game owner and not the player of a game (which is neccessary) this means all content created by them belongs to YOU. This means if they do something with your product that violates the law it is your fault that you let it happen as opposed to their fault for doing it: Though a counter-suit against the players violation of the TOS could be made, I doubt it would produce any money. Therefore, creating a secret site or even actually having fans do the work still allows whomever to sue your pants off.

Camp #2: For something to be illegal it must be A) against written law or precedent and B) Enforceable. Lets face it, this law is barely enforceable and you'd have to be making some really BIG waves for anyone to notice your product has fans violating laws (or even has YOU violating them). By the book its illegal but you won't lose anything by doing it: They'd probably send a cease and decist letter prior to lawsuit. You'd just have to have a plan to comply when they do.

-Joe

[Jack Norton]

Well I already allows users to customize the players with an external CSV file: in this case I think I do absolutely nothing illegal, infact it is an external file so isn't even inside the program itself (isn't an editor).
If users edit that csv file and they share it isn't my concern. I own the IP of my game, not of that players.csv file, it's just a file with nothing misterious in it, a plain text file ;)

[bentlegen]

Furthermore it is illegal even if your PLAYERS are the ones who create them.I don't believe this is true - precedent has already been set in this area a dozen times over. Don't you remember the recent City of Heroes/Marvel lawsuit? Similarly for the VHS lawsuits of the 80's. I was under the impression that as long as your product has significant legal uses, you are not responsible for the actions of your customers, unless you do something silly like promote or recommend users to commit the infringement themselves.

I'm not a lawyer though, so who knows.

[Fry Crayola]

Practically every football game out there allows the user to edit the database. And I've yet to see a single lawsuit regarding that. Indeed, in Pro Evolution Soccer its virtually mandatory :D

[terin]

Actually, I am of the belief Marvel would have won the City of Heroes suit if NCsoft didn't do anything to stop people... though that debate could go on forever.

Keep in mind they lost because NCsoft proved that Marvel had planted people inside the game to create copywritten characters. Typical underhanded dealings.

Anyway: If it is internal to the customer then you are probably right, its their IP. I was speaking in reference to online games where you upload your data. I think in most cases player names are not protected but teams and logos are.

As for the old games where the players names are blanked out (Techmo games had that) I actually have no clue why that was: it may have had something to do with promotional contracts the players signed. IE: Jordan was "owned" by Nike.

-Joe

[Fry Crayola]

It's needs to be pointed out though that with City of Heroes, the tools were in the game to give players superhuman strength, a blue suit and a cape, or yellow spandex and retractable claws, and so forth.

Can FIFA or similar sue Sports Interactive or Konami for providing the use of the alphabet in their games which allow someone to change the name to "van Nistelrooy"? It's the alphabet.

[soniCron]

When was the last time someone heard of Your Favorite Paper Company being sued because someone wrote a copywritten line on it? ;)

[terin]

Its all a matter of due dilligence or whatever Fry. The short answer is: Under the right circumstances, yes, they CAN sue Konami. The backup short answer is you can sue anyone for anything... you may not win, but if you have enough lawyers and money you can probably get an out of court settlement.

The long answer is: If the company who creates the game uses trademarks/tradenames (We'll assume some player names are protected) without permission they are completely liable to be sued. If the company creates a game and allows an editor then I think the goal of the defendent is to prove they conducted due dilligence in stopping these things from occurring. City of Heroes would have to prove that they were deleting accounts that closely matched trademark heroes and that they were doing it to the best of their ability. Were they? From what I heard they were... would they win the case... had the evidence not been thrown out: No, I bet it would have been settled out of court: Marvel has deep pockets. NCSoft has deep pockets too, but NCSoft has a lot more at stake.

Anyway, I am no lawyer so I could be totally wrong :-) All of this stems from the couple legal classes I had in college for legal business practices.

-Joe

[Fry Crayola]

You can also weigh up the chances of such a court case arising. The way I see it, if it hasn't happened yet commercially with big name products such as PES, then there's not much to worry about. They'll go after them before they go after you - they have the bigger pockets for such an out-of-court settlement. The best that FIFA or Random-Famous-Bloke could get out of you is a cease and desist.

[luggage]

You can also weigh up the chances of such a court case arising. The way I see it, if it hasn't happened yet commercially with big name products such as PES, then there's not much to worry about. They'll go after them before they go after you - they have the bigger pockets for such an out-of-court settlement. The best that FIFA or Random-Famous-Bloke could get out of you is a cease and desist.Just to make things clear here - when you use PES as an example you mean for including an editor? not for using real player names (PES does use some real data but they llicense it).

[Anthony Flack]

Uh-oh, what if someone gets your level editor and spells out "Harry Potter" in bricks? Frankly, anyone who creates anything these days is on pretty thin ice. We'll have it outlawed soon enough.

[Fry Crayola]

Just to make things clear here - when you use PES as an example you mean for including an editor? not for using real player names (PES does use some real data but they llicense it).

Yes, for including an editor with which we can change the names to what they're supposed to be.

Although it can be argued that PES's use of real faces even for unlicensed players could yet cause a problem.

[Sybixsus]

Uh-oh, what if someone gets your level editor and spells out "Harry Potter" in bricks? Frankly, anyone who creates anything these days is on pretty thin ice. We'll have it outlawed soon enough.

I'm waiting for the makers of Alphabetti Spaghetti to be sued because I spelled out "David Beckham" in my dinner.