So how casual is the casual audience really?

[svero]

One of the main things I hear often about the portals that exist nowdays is that, while they give us access to a large audience, they restrict what we can make in an implicit way. There's an impression that sites like Real etc.. have essentially groomed an audience that likes a particular kind of game, and that unless we're willing to make yet another bejeweled we won't be able to get any visibility and sell through those channels. How true is that? How willing are sites like real etc.. to try games that don't seem fit into the niche? For instance, would a really great strategy game have a chance at publication? And are portals doing anything to try and diversify their audience or are they content to provide a service that only appeals to a subset of gamers? And are there any examples of games that have done well that don't fit the general accepted definitions of what a "casual" game is?

[adamw]

Some anecdotal evidence: The types of games we produce are not casual in any sense. And yet, a portal has approached us. So yeah, I'd say they want to broaden their appeal and audience. It seems like a logical extension to me. The casual game space is well established, so I think the desire for portals to distinguish themselves is clear.

It's rather curious too. EA is moving into the portal space with Pogo and established portals are moving into a more traditional (?) publisher space. I'm waiting for a loud >clank< sound as they thunder into each other and yet another gate shuts for small, not-under-contract developers.

[svero]

See the reason I brought this thread up, is that I've long held the belief that there is quite a bit of elbow room in the casual space to make all kinds of games. I think a lot of it comes down to how attractive the games are and how accessible they are. If you look at games being developed by reflexive, and sprout, and popcap etc... you have very high standards of overall quality in terms of, not only graphics and sound, but play balancing etc... Looking at more traditional games like strategy titles... where is the little strategy game that has bejeweled 2's level of quality? It simply doesn't exist. Is that a reflection of the lack of demand for such a game or is it that there's no demand for the current batch of titles because they don't aspire to the same level of quality?

[dima]

I believe that with time, all sorts of games are going to be distributed through these portals. There will be new portals, and old ones will broaden their approach to casual games. It's a matter of time untill ALL games are sold online, at least that's what I think, so naturally there will be new portals and casual and not-so-casual games will make it to the front pages.

As for the current casual space that's aimed at a specific type of audience, nothing wrong with that. Right now that's where most of the money is, and current portals understand that and try to, obviously, target that market. What separates the top sellers from the rest? IMO it's the polish and production values. The games are mostly simple, but with very good presentation and accessability, and they end up being at the top of the lists.

It's just a matter of time untill more complex, less casual games will make it to the top. Once the market for games gets completely flooded, only the best will survive, and the quality bars will only go up. Sooner or later all sorts of games will be sold through portals, and game development will become harder and harder, but at the same time better tools will be available to ease the pain.

Now, gotta make some highly polished games ...

[Stu]

Looking at more traditional games like strategy titles... where is the little strategy game that has bejeweled 2's level of quality? It simply doesn't exist.

Isn't Lemonade Tycoon that little strategy game? Or do you mean a wargamer.com little strategy game? My partner and I have argued this very point. If he had his way we would be making that little strategy game right now. I personally think it is too risky right now. We discussed who that little strategy game would appeal to. Would the 40 something ladies go for it? Would the hardcore strategy gamers like it? Would we be creating something outside of either market? Who is left and how many of them are there?

Frankly I don't think these questions can be answered without applying them to a specific or completed game. It would be nice to have those answers in advance but who can say? I'm sure someone will be that guy who busts that genre open with a hit. Until then I'm not brave enough to try it, but if you go on ahead I promise I'll go next. :D

[JoeMaru]

Our game, ThinkTanks, is not what I would consider a casual game in the sense that everyone describes it here (bubble popper). Our game is what we refer to as Hardcore 'lite'.. it is a shooter targeted at people who used to play Doom and now have a wife and kids (and their wives and kids).

It does not really match the demographic they look for, but we did publish with both Real Arcade and Shockwave.com (note also that Shockwave hosted our online dedicated servers for the game). we are not pushing the numbers that the top 10 are, but the amount of money we made with the portals was not insubstaintial.

Now that things are consolidating somewhat.. it may be harder to get a game like ours onto the portals, and the sales may not be the big numbers that Zuma gets, but I know it is possible to get a non-casual game on a portal (because we did it)

I wanted to add that we also publish with GarageGames.. and they are looking for the types of games that the other portals are not. They are thinking a few years ahead, and they are trying to build up a place that takes on the bigger, more complex, less casual Indie titles, that the current crop of casual users may 'graduate' to in time. Also note that the royalty % they have is very developer friendly.

[Jack Norton]

Trygames has Civilization 3 among his games and I bet that sells well. (has also other games like the great Disciples 2, etc)
But don't tell me that even "casual" gamers can't appreciate Sid Meier masterpiece, or I'll quit the gamdev completely! :p

[svero]

I want people to understand though, that I'm not really talking about making Civ3 or whatever and selling it on the portals. That is to say... It's not merely that the game should have top production quality, but rather that a whole lot of effort should go into producing the game in such a way that its a really great downloadable game. I think the sphere of games that fall under that category and could potentially appeal to the casual audience that is being reached right now is already much wider than we've actually seen.

There seems to be some level of assumption in retail and other titles that we're all familiar with games and complex interfaces etc.. Civ3 doesn't really do any hand holding. Im sure it would seem daunting to a non-gamer just getting into the scene. But I'm also pretty sure that a lot of the people who would be initially put off by it would enjoy it if they learned it.

[lakibuk]

Master of the Skies: The Red Ace or Red Ace Squadron or both have sold well on Realarcade. 3D action game.

[svero]

Master of the Skies: The Red Ace or Red Ace Squadron or both have sold well on Realarcade. 3D action game.

Maybe.. but I think you have to be a little careful there. Would they also sell well today if their modern counterparts were released.

One of the problems with distribution channels is a polarization of sales to the top selling titles. If card games generally outsold all other kinds of games it wouldn't matter so much that red ace or some other non card game had sales potential because it would lose it's visibility relative to the card games. So it's not only that games have to sell well, but they also have to sell competitively relative to whatever happens to be the top selling crop when they're released. The catalog of games on real etc.. was quite a bit different a few years back than it is today. Maybe there was more room then for a game like red ace?

[lakibuk]

I think BigFish has more place for other games.
Like Betty's Bar Bar (unusual gameplay) or Wonderland (relatively complicated controls).

[James Gwertzman]

We've found that you can't really talk about the portals as a single entity. Each portal is different, and they tend to attract different audiences often based on their roots. We're often surprised at how well one of our games will do on one portal, and then how poorly it will do on another.

I do think there is plenty of room for casual games to go outside the "match 3" mold. In my mind, what makes a casual game a casual game is NOT the core game mechanic, but rather the following:

- mass appeal (theme, graphics, sound, music, etc)

- extremely easy to learn - no instructions need (game teaches as it goes)

- can play for anywhere from 3 minutes to 3 hours and still have fun (completing a single level should take approx. 3 minutes we think)

- very simple controls - our most successful game, Feeding Frenzy, used just the mouse and in fact you didn't even have to click - you could win the entire game without ever having to click during levels

generally the reason you don't see certain genres of games in this space (RPG's, strategy games) I think are points #2 and points #3. If you could design and build a simple little strategy game that fits all of these points I think you'd have a successful game on your hands. Advance Wars for the GBA was the closest game that I've seen that does this.

[baegsi]

... GarageGames... They are thinking a few years ahead, and they are trying to build up a place that takes on the bigger, more complex, less casual Indie titles, that the current crop of casual users may 'graduate' to in time.I'm pretty sure that, as consolidation continues, a new market that lies between pure casual < - > hardcore, 3D gamer will emerge. I think that's pretty obvious. Why I am so sure? I just look at myself: I grew up playing C64 games and developed a life-time loving relationship to games. Nowadays I lack time playing AAA titles, but I'm also find casual games very boring. So I'm continually looking for games that can be played in 15 minutes but still challenge me more than 3 match games. And I'm sure that I'm just part of a whole generation that feels the same.

[adamw]

Right. I'm part of the crowd too and I like the casual games - Zuma, Bejeweled (well, really the Mountain King version called Treasure Fall) and even some of the word games. Honestly, I'm not sure what I'm looking for in a game anymore, but I'm getting a bit eclectic.

But in general, I think I'm an exception. The real casual crowd is my wife and those like her. She likes a game she can play while talking on the phone. So no game that takes more than a few minutes to finish a level will attract her. She has to be able to stop the game on a dime too. That's really important. No sci-fi theme or fantasy theme will *ever* appeal to her. Zuma is absolutely her favorite now. The next "Zuma" will certainly be on our purchase list (she's on level 12 and that's about it for the game). But Pizza Frenzy was too simple, not enough challenge (although my girls loved it).

Still, if we're talking about portals, they are trying to appeal to my demographic more and more. No doubt about that and as I said, I think it's an expected, logical direction.