What is a good income?

[gpetersz]

I was off topic a bit in Gabriel's post so I made this to ask about it.
I'd like to strongly say, I do not need any personal data, and don't want to offend.

What do you regard a good income? I mean with a loose location, like for me:

Hungary, Budapest $1500 is enough, $2500 is good (my current, in databasing, but it is outstanding at the moment even in this area), $5000 is great. These are monthly payments so if calculated:

$18K, $30K, $60K / year

Well, these are NOT the usual moneys hungarians make. The "average" people regard $1000 a very good one, and my $1500 "enough" is a great one.
But I measure myself to more successful people and more successful (cleverer and luckier) countries. $100k seems beyond my dreams (yet), and if it can be made in the retail and some could make (SteveP) in the shareware biz that seems promising.

What is good money in the US, England, Canada, Germany, France (etc, etc)?

I don't ask about personal data, but something like what the people regard in other countries enough/good/great?

Naturally, living costs strongly affect the standard of living, Hungary is somewhere around 75% of US living costs at the moment according to the "Big Mac Index". (so the standard of living, ie. what you can afford is
naturally worse at the moment)

Thanks.

[Gnatinator]

Over here in the lower mainland (BC) of Canada, its pretty cheap. A single person could live decently with $1,500/mo outside of the really big cities.

[Jim Buck]

It totally depends on the part of the U.S. for what is a "good" salary. I'm in San Diego (southern California), and $100,000 would be considered "pretty good" and would just get you by if you buy a place here (since prices of places are so high now).

At the time I left upstate New York to move here in '96, I think $40-60k would have been considered "pretty good".

[20thCenturyBoy]

In Australia, $60K USD per year is considered good. Less in the west, where I am. I know sys admins with many years experience on about $40K. Anything above $70K is seriously good money.

[Mark Currie]

From what I know, game programmers in my area (Seattle area, USA) make between $50-$100k USD per year depending on the company and experience. This applies to non-independent game developers. I think programmers outside of games generally make a little more. A friend of mine at Microsoft (non-games) with 6 yrs experience makes $105k/yr, and that doesn't include stock grants, bonuses, and other benefits.

I think that's pretty good money, but the cost of living is also high. The typical houses around here cost $300-$400k.

[Cuculain]

Well the USD has gone from costing >10 swedish crowns to less than 7 in the last two years or so making it a bit difficult to compare. Two years ago a decent developer salary would have been equivalent to $35K/year and now its more like $50K. Of course the only time the difference really matters is when you go on vacation (good) or try to sell things on the internet (bad).

[Jack Norton]

I made a post some months ago about "cost of life", check it :)
http://www.indiegamer.com/archives/t-877.html

fun to see that now, thanks to the incredibly poor euro->dollar conversion, I might say that I need 1500$ /month to live (including my girlfriend). We have a very low standard of living though: no cinema, no restaurant, etc... ;)

[Martoon]

From what I know, game programmers in my area (Seattle area, USA) make between $50-$100k USD per year depending on the company and experience. This applies to non-independent game developers. I think programmers outside of games generally make a little more. A friend of mine at Microsoft (non-games) with 6 yrs experience makes $105k/yr, and that doesn't include stock grants, bonuses, and other benefits.

I think that's pretty good money, but the cost of living is also high. The typical houses around here cost $300-$400k.

This really varies with location within the US. Those numbers quoted above are pretty typical for the West Coast and for more densely populated metro areas. In the small rural town where I currently live in the Midwest, $30k per year would be considered a decent living, and $100k would be absolutely obscene (but there aren't a lot of programmers in small, rural towns :p ). Decent used houses sell for around $50k - $60k, and the nicer, "upscale" houses go for $100k - $150k.

[princec]

In the UK, I am unable to get by on less than £45k/year before tax (about $90k at current exchange rates). Nearly all of this is due to the outrageous price of houses (my little house cost £300k), followed by the outrageous price of petrol (83p a litre), followed by the outragous price of food (weekly shop, containing mostly salad & vegetables, comes to £100 for the two of us), followed by the outrageous price of booze (at £3 for the nastiest bottle of red) :D

Cas :)

[Ricardo C]

Here in Venezuela, a family of three can live quite nicely on $20-25k a year, and a four-bedroom house in a middle class neighborhood costs around $100k. Although Chavez's populist platform is almost certain to bankrupt the economy sooner rather than later, which means those figures will go way up...

[James C. Smith]

It also depends a lot on your family situation. Ten years ago I was paying $200 per month for rent in small town USA. A big reason I could get away with this was that I was in a small town with low housing coasts. But the other reason was that I was a young single guy who didn’t mind living in a shoebox apartment. My $30k salary made me feel rich.

Now I have a wife and child and plans for more. The small 950 square foot condo we live in now seems small especially when we think about more kids. We are now in the opposite of small town USA so nicer place we want to move to (3 bedroom + den condo in the English speaking part of town) is listing for about half a million dollars. It is hard to afford a place like that with less than $100k combined annual salary. But even if I was back in small town USA my $30k annual salary wouldn’t really be enough to support a family comfortably.

[gpetersz]

Thanks for all (and for the link). It makes things clearer for me, I mean, it
helps to compare that $19,95 average price to anything else (for example the standard of living in other countries in the world). :)

I wasn't really sure how to price my stuff. :cool:

[FlySim]

Here in San Mateo County, CA the median house price is $775K and the average is $980K - it is getting insane. But the median income for 1 person is $66K. Most programmers I know make 80K+ (all types). Heres the trick, a friend moved back to rural midwest and kept Bay Area programming job. He paid $70K for 7 acres and a house.

[Jim Buck]

Heres the trick, a friend moved back to rural midwest and kept Bay Area programming job.

What Bay Area company is supporting telecommuting? And where do I apply? :)

[Bmc]

I'm in the east of Canada. 30g would be considered good... but it can be better. I left a 32g job awhile back to start my own company(doing casual games). Got about 2 weeks left on my no compete and them it's go time.

[Black Hydra]

I once read an article in readers digest about happiness.

It listed the 10 things that make people happy?

Wager a guess at what number 1 was? Money.

However, it wasn't HOW much money you had... no, no. It was how much MORE money you had than the people around you.

So according to this, if you want to be happy, don't get in a rat race for more money, just get poorer friends! :eek:

[FlySim]

What Bay Area company is supporting telecommuting?
He was the last man standing from a startup that was bought by a much larger company.
He could set his own terms and I guess he did. :D

[bentlegen]

I'd say average programmers salary in and around Toronto is $60k / year, which I think is pretty good.

[Mark Fassett]

A good income is whatever income that will allow you to live the way you want to live, wherever that may be.

[PoV]

I'd say average programmers salary in and around Toronto is $60k / year, which I think is pretty good.Yes, but in the game industry, $50k is doing awesome. :P

[gpetersz]

As I see, the differences are not that shockingly huge as I thought.

[Alex]

I'm in West Australia on less than $25000 (australian dollars) per year. Thats barely enough to scrape by on, and yet work is so hard to find for people who lack the piece of paper. I have friends on $30 - $45k incomes and they are programmers or engineers. My highest earning buddy on over $60k per year is actually a carpenter by trade, currently he's getting about $2000 per week, after tax. I'm in the wrong trade *throws computer out the window and picks up a toolbox*

[terin]

Cost of Living is not the only determinant factor with regards to income you sillyheads.

Man, who all replied to this without stopping and going "What did I learn in microeconomics?"

Now, foreign countires may be widely different from the US, but since I may soon have the option of working from home anywhere in the US (being tied down right now by a few loose ends, like actually getting married in July)

I did some figuring on where I am best off moving to... and here's the problem.

I considered three places to move, taking into account a similar sized house to what we have (2 Adults 1 child) 3 BR 2 full Bath 1,200 SQ Ft.

Upstate Newyork/Pennsylvania
Middle of Tenn. (Near Nashville)
Where I am right now (Gainesville, Florida: North Central FL)

Here's how I broke it down:
NY/Penn: Approx. Mortgage: 425/Month
Tenn: Approx Mortgage: 650/Month
Gainesville: 800/Month

Now, I am assuming most other factors, such as land tax, are roughly the same. They aren't... not really, but I haven't gone far enough into this. You do still have to take this into account but that isn't where im going with this thread:

Here's the problem:
Gainesville's Housing value is rising at a rate of over 10%/yr. Meaning that the fact we already are homeowners paying some principal on our loan which is 6%. That means we are making 4% on the loaned money PLUS principal return (about 100/month right now). (our house value went up 13,000 dollars in less than a year).

While G'ville costs more to live at, in theory, we have a winning investment, making it better than moving to Tenn. However, NY is a large enough gap that we could take the extra money and re-invest it elsewhere, probably earning a return... HOWEVER

Housing values in BFE Newyork are actually FALLING at a rate of .5%... and the weather sucks... who wants to live there? Nobody... not a family at least.

Problem #2: Quality of Life is not quantity of life:
For instance: Weather seems to be inversely proportionate to education system. With a 3 yr old daughter finding a good public school system is quickly becoming a priority for me.

Florida is ranked 47th of 50 in the US.
Newyork is near the top
Tenn. is somewhere in the middle

And so... this discussion derails in my mind as a way for me to try to figure out where to move that is both economically positive, socially positive, educationally positive, and weather... well... at least not TOO negative.

There's more to consider than how much money you have... anyway... its also how your long term investments in the area you live will do AND quality of life, such as water quality, educaitional system, neighborhood safety, ect.

-Joe

[Greg Squire]

For the US at least, http://www.salary.com/ is a good resource for finding out what an average salary is (in an area) for various occupations.

[Yossarian]

As I see, the differences are not that shockingly huge as I thought.

$25k USD in Australia versus $75 for Seattle or parts of Southern California is like a 300% difference... ;) Could be worse I guess, but us Americans aren't THAT bloated and silly rich.

Would be nice to be able to set up shop in Thailand like svero, but like Terin, I've got to consider quality of life for the family now as well. While there are certainly a ton of corners and excess things in our lifestyle that could be cut, I do enjoy driving a decent car, having cable, and working on a decent computer. That mixed with the cost of diapers and baby food (screw gas, have you seen the cost of 4 oz. of mushed peas lately? :) ) meant we were struggling a bit for a few days before payday every couple of weeks. And that was on $48k salary.

My biggest hit now is the damn health insurance. Those of you that have socialized health care systems, feel lucky. The hit we take in the US for good coverage when you have a family is absolutely brutal. $500/month spent making sure that if my little girl cuts an arm off trying to push the cat in the blender we can get it reattached without $100k in medical debt...

[Anthony Flack]

$25k USD in Australia versus $75 for Seattle or parts of Southern California is like a 300% difference...


It was 25k Australian, which is about 19k US. Of course, until recently the US dollar was worth more...

[Barknee Holden]

$25k USD in Australia versus $75 for Seattle or parts of Southern California is like a 300% difference... ;)

If you need $75k to live comfortably in Seattle, I'm not sure why I haven't quite been swept up by the street cleaner yet....

[Hiro_Antagonist]

I'm living on about $17k in Seattle right now. (no wife/kids and my car's paid off. And to be fair, that's 'after taxes')

No, it's not as comfortable as making $60k at Microsoft, but it's not as painful as I expected. I still manage to take my girlfriend out to eat often (3 entertainment books helps a lot), watch new releases (netflix), and buy the occassional new game (past-peak, bargain bin, or indie.)

Saying you need $75k to live in Seattle is a gross overstatement. If I were making even $35k again, I'd be in heaven. Quality of life is not linearly proportional to income.

Also, for what it's worth, Seattle rent is about half of the San Francisco area.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[princec]

When I was a student alcoholic drug fiend, I managed to survive in total happiness on < £5k a year. Sigh.

Cas :)

[robleong]

Here in San Mateo County, CA the median house price is $775K and the average is $980K - it is getting insane. But the median income for 1 person is $66K. Most programmers I know make 80K+ (all types). Heres the trick, a friend moved back to rural midwest and kept Bay Area programming job. He paid $70K for 7 acres and a house.

Duh, and I'm thinking of making a move to the bay area soon, to where you are in San Mateo County, probably to Foster City or Redwood Shores... Any banks nearby to rob?! :)

[Fry Crayola]

I currently earn £18k a year in my day job, which is actually decent enough at 23. It pays the bills and I have plenty left over as disposable income. When I go full time, I'd be quite happy with that. Works out at about £1,500 a month before taxes.

Of course, I'm slightly buoyed by rarely going out (which certainly keeps costs down) and by my girlfriend earning £14K a year too.

I can see the value going up over the next few years as I move into a newer flat and have more things to pay for. Always happens. And one day I may even learn to drive...

[aiosup]

Speaking of salaries, I guess we can address different topics: people salary and game industry salaries. For the latter, please address the IGDA surveys on the matter. For US-residents, the 2003 survey at Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20040211/olsen_pfv.htm) may be interesting. I will be relating to people salaries from here on.

[decent/average/good/very good salary]:

France 12K/18K/24K/40K
Germany 16K/25K/32K/60K
Romania 3.5K/5K/10K/20K
Switzerland 28K/36K/45K/75K
The Netherlands 15k/22k/26k/40k


With the exception of Romania, the sums have been artificially inferred from the PhD students payment, after taxes (which should be just below the average net salary rate in these countries). Note that in NL it's way harder to get a high salary than to stick to the average - this explains why the awesome salary is lower than in France, even if all the other are actually higher.

Finally, let me mention that these are not just guestimates: I live in Netherlands, I used to live in France, and I've got friends in Germany, Switzerland, and Romania, but please correct me if I'm wrong about these prices.

[gpetersz]

If you need $75k to live comfortably in Seattle, I'm not sure why I haven't quite been swept up by the street cleaner yet....

Okay, okay It was a bit selfish point of view, how I've approached the thing.
I mean, from a hungarian's point of view. They are both satisfying (for me).
Somehow I thought that the rate between my $30k/year and other countries' salaries would be around 2-3, but seemingly a $30k can be regarded as an average, meaning it really could be US or Canadian or Australian (maybe UK...) salary! Some guys make less some make more. some areas better some worse, but all close or around this. That what surprised me a bit.

What really makes differences are the personal circumstances. I have two kids and a wife so that's why I am careful about jumping into the indie business. First grow my indie income, then jump...

[Jack Norton]

That what surprised me a bit.

What really makes differences are the personal circumstances. I have two kids and a wife so that's why I am careful about jumping into the indie business. First grow my indie income, then jump...
Shouldn't surprise you much since you have euro too now :)
With the crap euro<->dollar rate, a salary of 1000 euros here is almost 1500$. 30% is a big difference...

I agree that depends on various factors (family and children are a BIG one). I think I could go on here with 1000$ month but with a family I'd need about 3 or 4 times that amount... :eek:

[FlySim]

Duh, and I'm thinking of making a move to the bay area soon, to where you are in San Mateo County, probably to Foster City or Redwood Shores... Any banks nearby to rob?!
I'm in San Mateo City, close to Foster City. I was quoting figures for the whole county that I saw in the paper. This housing market took alot of people by surprise, many assumed that it would drop after the dot com crash but it only leveled out for a while. I'll case some banks for you ;)

[Brian A. Knudsen]

I only do games in sparetime. My daytime salery is minimum 60000-70000$ but i would expect to see only 45% of that income in my hand and 10% would go on my pension savings. Paying for housing here, is alone 2000-2500$ a month, if you want to own the house yourself.

Generally i would say taxing is the big issue here. But you also have to see what you get for the tax. There is no additional welfare cost etc etc here and so on and i would be very surprised to see anyone working in actual game dev getting less than 50k$ here.

[Ricardo C]

For a second I read that as "my DAILY salary is $60,000-$70,000" :D

[arcadetown]

It's all relative. Over $100k/yr in US is typically a good living which was awesome for me a few years back. I'd go bankrupt on that now and perhaps could scratch by on $250k/yr if had to with 2 homes to maintain and so forth.

New Home Pics Here (http://www.altoparc.com/lvhome/lvhome.html) - when in Vegas give us a buzz (nobody ever goes to Vegas right?).

[Ricardo C]

Screw game development, I'm starting a portal ;)

[Jack Norton]

Screw game development, I'm starting a portal ;)

I think is much harder to start a new portal nowadays than make a "moderate hit" game...

[zoombapup]

Rent here is probably averaging between 400-1000uk, which is maybe 700-1600us, I'd guess double your average rent to get your average required spend and you wont go far wrong as a rule of thumb (I find no matter what I earn/do, my income is basically taken 1/3rd for rent, 1/3rd for bills/expenses).

I guess thats the more interesting figure.. of your income, what %age is taken in expenses, what is actual free cash.

[Anthony Flack]

It's all relative.
Relative to whether or not you are trying to maintain the lifestyle of an oil sheik?

[Ricardo C]

I think is much harder to start a new portal nowadays than make a "moderate hit" game...

I think it's much harder for people to get a joke than to take a comment literally ;)

[Indiepath]

It's all relative. Over $100k/yr in US is typically a good living which was awesome for me a few years back. I'd go bankrupt on that now and perhaps could scratch by on $250k/yr if had to with 2 homes to maintain and so forth.
And I thought you would be in a position to purchase the new house outright :)

[joe]

I think is much harder to start a new portal nowadays than make a "moderate hit" game...

I think both is hard nowadays - but you also need very different knowledge in those two areas. Don't except to earn a lot of money without working hard!

[electronicStar]

I think both is hard nowadays - but you also need very different knowledge in those two areas. Don't except to earn a lot of money without working hard!
Yeah both are hard, but a succesful portal creator will always be able to buy a bigger house than a succesful game creator ;)

[SteveZ]

Given in one location, I believe how much you need to live comfortably depends on your "financial blueprint" - namely social economic factors that shapes your early years on how you think about money.

Citing on a personal example, my parents and I lived in a small apartment for the first 15 years of my life. The place was so small that the kitchen=bedroom=living room, so you can imagine we're always just "getting by".

By the time I hit college, I was almost always near broke. Then something happened, I started making shareware games, which sold pretty ok, especially Cactus Bruce. Soon, I was wasting my money on $100-$200 dinners, hundreds at social events, and thousands at unreasearched marketing - spending enough so I am always just "getting by".

So what I want to say is, given where ever you live, how much you consider living comfortably is also determined by how you were taught to perceive the value of money. And, in some cases, sometimes if you make more/less money, you'd probably still spend it to match your current circumstance.

-Steve Z.

[Jack Norton]

Those salaries means nothing, you have to take into account 2 main factor: house prices and health costs. They're going to influence your whole life.
For example guyA can get 1000/month and buy a decent house in france for 100k, while guyB can earn 2000/month but having hard time to find a decent (not a wreck) house in italy for 200k and pay an insane mortgage to buy it.

I would prefer to be guyA :D

[Karja]

Too bad that the Big Mac Index (http://www.oanda.com/products/bigmac/bigmac.shtml) isn't a reliable way of comparing salaries and costs. Otherwise an estimate could've been to deduct taxes, housing costs and (vague guesses of) other static expenses per month, and then divide the rest by the cost of a Big Mac in your local currency. I'm probably around 420-440 Big Macs per month, for example, and I think I have a pretty decent salary for my age in Sweden.

Yeah, I know: it's a ridiculous thought. But it would be nice to have some normalized way of comparing the "comfort money." Or maybe "money buffer" is a better word. Or "the dough that is spent on unnecessary things and never seems to be enough no matter what."

[robleong]

I'm in San Mateo City, close to Foster City. I was quoting figures for the whole county that I saw in the paper. This housing market took alot of people by surprise, many assumed that it would drop after the dot com crash but it only leveled out for a while. I'll case some banks for you ;)

LOL! I guess I'm over a year late answering this! I'm now settled in Redwood Shores, close to EA. House prices here are ridiculous, but if one is not looking to buy, one can live comfortably even here for perhaps $50K a year.

Yep, still looking for that bank to rob... Any leads? :)

[Escapee]

USD 1000/mth is fine in Malaysia for a small family + you dont mind driving a second hand car + a small house. This is why we have many foreign corporates stationing (Mostly Japanese ) here because the employment cost is so cheap .

The Engineers ~ USD 500- 1200
senior exec & manager here get paid in the range of USD 1300 -2000 ;)
A company MD will get you around USD 3000K-6000K/mth depending on the type of companies that you work in

All in all, we are very easy to be satisfied , arent we :D

[robleong]

The Engineers ~ USD 500- 1200

An engineer would probably earn 10 times as much here in the US. You could consider coming over to the US, work here for a couple of years, save the money, and then going home with hopefully 10 times as much savings... :)

[Escapee]

Yeah i know, I have passed that opportunity a month ago when my corporate master offered me the chance to work in state. I believe What i lost in greenbill, i gained back in time , freedom , health, and with moderate income to make a living ( in malaysian standard :D ).

The job involves alot of travelling around the world to meet/manage those error prone subcons who constantly give 'catastropic' trouble to the main factory. I figured i would die young with this kind of stressful and boring job that i said 'no' and 'good bye' without much hesitation.

I had prior experience in oversea/domestic technical support that involved lots of travelling and it's definitely not in alignment of what i would like to do. ;)
plus it's bad for health .