Web games are profitable/doable?

[moonpxi]

Hey all, not sure how many of you have experience in developing a web game (i.e. a game you play in your browser), but I got to ask, anyhow.

I was wondering if doing a web game is actually profitable, as an indie developer? An page who hold many such games is this (http://www.mpogd.com/), and a good example of a well done web game is Hattrick (http://www.hattrick.org).

Yes, they are less flashy to make, and yes, they only appeal to a limited audience, but they seem "easier" to do.

Of course, I have no idea of the profitability...

[moonpxi]

A quick addition to the whole web games thing:
- Most of them seems to be RPG or strategy games of some sort
- Most of them are subscription based, which might be around 5 dollars a month, or less

My game plan:
- Start doing some sort of web based game, perhaps a run of the mill one
- "Migrate" the games to an hibrid. I.e. the game is played part through the browser and part through an actual game application (probably some combat)
- Add interesting features, such as mobile phone notifications and navigation

[arcadetown]

Our top sellers are online playable as we can generate a boat load more online plays than downloadable only games. Trick is you have limitations so it's harder to make top quality stuff but it can be done with right scope (i.e. puzzle games).

Here's our latest title. We got pretty good quality out of Flash. Note the download version is the same game.

BLOX Forever (http://www.arcadetown.com/bloxforever/)

We used Flash since it's universally installed and many sites accept Flash content. Java, ActiveX, and Shockwave 3D can also be used. Java has all sorts of problems these days. ActiveX is intriguing, Retro64's Best Friends has online activex version that kicks butt, but it also has some limitations such as security settings. Some Shockwave 3D titles sell decently well here. Bet the right Shockwave 3D title could do some real sales damage.

[princec]

Java has all sorts of problems these days.
That's sort of disappointing because our new site is going to feature a whole load of Java applets. What've been the problems with it?

Cas :)

[Morphecy]

Java or Flash or other web based games can sell. In my opinion it's not the technology that sells. For example: www.richdad.com offers their educational Cashflow game that teaches people to invest. Their e-game is not using java or flash but in my opinion such game would easily be transformed to use Flash - and it would sell.

[princec]

Yeah, I know Java games can sell ;) - I'm more wondering what the technical problems and hurdles appear to be.

Cas :)

[moonpxi]

Actually, what I had in mind was more like browser games who were played, you know, like web pages. Yes...html browser games!

There are boatloads of these games, and I was wondering if ant of you have had an experience with any of them.

[princec]

Ahh. Hate them myself, the page loading times were just irritating and the richness of the client interaction was a bit naff (aside: wouldn't they be good for traditional text-command-based adventure games with pictures though?).

Did you ever play Bushtarion? My wife got addicted to that, along with hundreds of other people, but it was mysteriously free last time I saw it.

Cas :)

[moonpxi]

Yes...I agree with you that the page-loading and the "marvelous" interaction are a bit of a turn off. And yes, they are more or less text based adventures (most of the ones out there are RPG or strategy).

As you said about Bushtarion, and it's worth for most of them, they are, apparently, free! Actually, it may be an interesting business model: you can play most of the game for free, but you can play for enhancements in gameplay. In Bushtarion (http://www.bushtarion.com) you pay for in game cash (http://www.bushtarion.com/manual/purchase.php?l=1). In Hattrick (http://www.hattrick.org) (a soccer management online game), the whole game is free, and you pay for the ability to bookmark players and teams, customize your team's flag and uniform, and so on.

In other words, you pay to have a better experience.

My idea would be to mix this sort of play with a "real" application game. So, in a strategy game, all the unit recruiting, kingdom management and so on would be made through the game's web page, and the combat would be played in a turn based combat application (yes...in Java :))

[BlueWaldo]

Do you think there is a markey for this type of game (if done really well) to be strickly pay-to-play. Take the soccer management game for example, a game that you have to install will probably cost you $40 - $50, and there is probably a new version every year. So it will cost you $40-50 a year to play the game. Can you get customers to pay the same amount to play within thier browser?

[arcadetown]

You mean something like kingsofchaos.com (http://www.kingsofchaos.com). Personally don't like it as turns into just boring stats keeping but hear they do well. Also the game becomes so tied to your server there's no good way to market the content to other sites.

About Java, Majinwar (http://www.arcadetown.com/majinwar/) sells decently well. Like our Realspace 2 (http://www.arcadetown.com/realspace2/) it stayed Java 1.1 compatible for maximum user base compatabilty. History... Micrsoft kept Java in dark ages by pre-installing Java 1.1 for a long time then in XP they stopped shipping it. Sun then introduced sound playback problems for 1.1 compatible games in Java 1.4 ala little pauses as each sound is played. We could use 1.4 api but then that cuts back on available user base and it's an incredible 10+ mb download that's very confusing for your normal user to install. Plus we've found it hard to get Java 1.1 content on other sites, virtually nobody will accept 1.4 content.

Compare to Flash which is quick small download, easy to install, virtually on every machine, plus it's much easier to market Flash content to other sites to get more exposure.

Hey Cas, we really wanted to run your game but it was almost 10mb download per online play so with even modest online play would be HUGE bandwidth hit. Plus your jni use with open GL tie-ins would be support problems. Nuts. Hopefully your new upcoming games will be smaller download hit for online demo versions.

[arcadetown]

Side note... we've got a lot of online game partner sites and also get other online games author partners content out there pretty successfully. Example of how it's easier to market Flash content and just getting started with BLOX Forever...

Google for BLOX Forever (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=BLOX+Forever&btnG=Google+Search&num=100)

[moonpxi]

@ Cas: by the way, these browser games can get VERY addictive, that it might even be mind boggling. The key is they are simple to use, since everyone is used to browsing, and they are ubiquitous, since any place with an internet connection and a browser can be your game station.

@ BlueWaldo: That is a though question there! I actually posted this thread to figure it out the same thing from other indie developers!! :) However, I don't know, my gut instinct tells me it might be possible, perhaps (and probably) with lower price costs. Take a look at Hattrick, and you will see a LOT of supporters.

@ arcadetown: I guess it's something like King of Chaos (which I don't find a great game). But, yes, it becomes tied to your server, so it might be harder to get the word out. Of course, there are sites such as
this (http://www.mpogd.com) that can give you adverstise.

[Chris Evans]

Some Shockwave 3D titles sell decently well here. Bet the right Shockwave 3D title could do some real sales damage.

I hope so. :)

Flash is pretty much everywhere, but do you see a lot of sites accepting Shockwave 3D content as well? There's a lot of people who don't even know the difference between Flash and Shockwave...

[princec]

Hey Cas, we really wanted to run your game but it was almost 10mb download per online play so with even modest online play would be HUGE bandwidth hit. Plus your jni use with open GL tie-ins would be support problems. Nuts. Hopefully your new upcoming games will be smaller download hit for online demo versions.
Unlikely - we're committed to OpenGL, and our games are all likely to be between 5-10mb because of the graphics and sound quality. Having said that if you've got more than one of our games up there they'll all be sharing library code so that'll save nearly 1mb off every subsequent download. (I hope you know that the game is cached locally forever afterwards, right? - unlike many Flash games)

Besides, 10mb doesn't sound very big to me at all! We're getting 1500 *GIGS* a month for just $50 - which would equate 150,000 downloads - which would create over 1,000 sales (or $8,000 in revenue) - surely that's a perfectly reasonable return?

Cas :)

[terin]

Well, I am/was the marketing guy behind Dragon Claw Studio's FaitH, one of the bigger commercial web based games.

Ergo: My opinion counts more than all of yours put together. Neaner-Neaner.

The answer is: It isn't any easier to develop a web game.

It is harder to sell

It consumes more bandwidth and resources than non-web games.

It can be profitable.

www.dragonclawstudio.com

Good luck.

[formfarbeminze]

ONE: i think a web based game is a good way to sell any other service than the game itself. for instance, you could offer an high-quality email-service as an alternative to your regular yahoo-account, and drive people to sign (and pay) with your offer of free online-games for customers. there are plenty of possible combinations like that. you could offer multimedia development, using you game as the showcase your prospects will remember ;-) you can use your game as a "container" to hold advertising. and so on and so on...

TWO: http://www.skotos.net/ are doing well in online games with a subscription-based business model.

THREE: what would i do, give i had already developed a in-browser game? i would develop/gather some other games, offer them for free on a website. next phase: drive up the traffic. then: sign deals with big corps a la "this fun experience is presented by toca-cola" etc like http://www.k10k.net/ are doing with theire site after that: t-shirts, online-shop and so on... just don't use "oportunities" like banners. those will make your site just another one of these... and make people puke. if you don't want to much, you get something back.

[arcadetown]

Ah Joeseph, yours was another example wanted to point out! Great game which we very much wanted to bring on board to draw a community feel and bet would drive good revenue. But alas your html based game would be problematic here or other sites due to all the files/database.

Shockwave 3D is viable and personally feel it's the future of online games unless MM gets off butt and puts 3D in Flash. You don't get performance of good downloadable 3D but can still do pretty good stuff and since can generate 10x more online plays than downloads it will sell. Yes fewer sites accept SW3D titles than Flash but far more than Java. They do cause more support problems and refunds because it's flakey particuarly on older systems. Typically a graphics driver, dircectx, and shockwave update fix it.

Here's solid SW3D titles that if just a tad bland, sell ok. With a little more omph/excitment bet would be top sellers.

VertiGolf (http://www.arcadetown.com/vertigolf/) Pipedown (http://www.arcadetown.com/pipedown/) Roll On (http://www.arcadetown.com/rollon/)

[arcadetown]

Cas bandwidth is cheap but we've already about outgrown our recent 2 server @ 2000gig/mo upgrade (yikes!). Unfortunately most other webmasters pass on any online game over 1mb. Plus recently a big site linked a few games here including a couple 2mb and 5mb online games that absolutely killed us. I hate it as much as you but the reality sunk in, many sites don't accept Java content and users have problems with it so it complicates marketing. btw - Flash/Shockwave games are cached.

Edit: Don't know if it's possible but perhaps your online playable versions could have less bandwidth needs such as lower resolution images and sample rates on sfx/music? Plus maybe a good selling point to differentiate and drive downloads and full version sales. Also, online playable drives more demos but much lower CR... we'd probably easily generate 150k online plays per month but wouldn't drive nearly $8k in sales, otherwise I'd be on it like an ex-con to a hooker.

Another drawback of html browser based games is ad agencies disallow advertising there since too many browser refreshes.

[moonpxi]

Terin, thanks alot for the reply, it was indeed helpfull!!

However, in my case, it would be "easier" to develop a web game. I am not underestimating the work in it, but in my case an artist resource that can do sprites and more complex artwork is, unfortunetly, missing (and I can't buy princec artist!! :().

My biggest concern so far is bandwidth!! And this sort of scare me a bit...

[DopeTrail]

Our top sellers are online playable as we can generate a boat load more online plays than downloadable only games. Trick is you have limitations so it's harder to make top quality stuff but it can be done with right scope (i.e. puzzle games).

Here's our latest title. We got pretty good quality out of Flash. Note the download version is the same game.

BLOX Forever (http://www.arcadetown.com/bloxforever/)

We used Flash since it's universally installed and many sites accept Flash content. Java, ActiveX, and Shockwave 3D can also be used. Java has all sorts of problems these days. ActiveX is intriguing, Retro64's Best Friends has online activex version that kicks butt, but it also has some limitations such as security settings. Some Shockwave 3D titles sell decently well here. Bet the right Shockwave 3D title could do some real sales damage.

Hey Arcadetown...

What is the usual expected file size limit of a flash game? Can I take a 6 mb game, convert to flash, and put it on sites? Or do you find that folks will only play flash games that load super quick.

Later,
Dope Trail

[moonpxi]

Well...from a user point of view, I get a little pissed of when the flash game take a bit too much time to load.

[Sillysoft]

My biggest concern so far is bandwidth!! And this sort of scare me a bit...
Bandwidth only becomes a concern once you are successful. By that time you should have no problem paying for said bandwidth. Start out with some cheap webhosting, and if/when you need to you can move up.

[roygon]

I'd recommend reading a book titled "Developing Online Games: An Insiders Guide". It is very good and at the absolute minimum will give you a huge amount of ideas, warnings, concepts, facts etc. Don't build a web game until you have read this.

In general I would say just go for it - your first attempt might not be great but you will learn so much and as long as you manage your "worst-case scenario" as far as costs then the experience will be beneficial.

A few random comments:
* With a web game, far more than with a downloadable game, the real work starts when you finish the game...
* Caching is your friend! Learn how to use it effectively to cut your bandwidth by many times.
* Make sure that your game is ready before releasing it to the world because you will be busy answering questions, dealing with people and playing the game yourself. It will be much harder to find lots of time to make changes (and to test those changes) once the game is being played for real.
* Read the book! It will give you so many ideas on how to build your game to make it fun for the different types of people in the world.
* Your first game should have a small scope otherwise you won't finish it. If you have experience then you already know this - if you are just starting then this is good advice.

I am about 90% completed with a web game (built in .NET which ia an excellent choice if you go the MS route) that I first beta'ed about 2 years ago! Everyone that played it thought it was excellent, even people who are not interested in the particular genre. At this point I could release it and I am sure would get a huge amount of free users and a decent amount of paid users - I am almost 100% sure it would be profitable but very likely not "full time job replaceable". But I can't release it... I don't have the time at this point in my life with a 60+ hour per week in a very demanding dev / architecture job with a company I helped found that actually survived the dot bomb + family and relaxation time... The good news is that if things go well then my indie career could be funded from my current job for many, many years to come which is what I'm hoping for. In the mean time I spend a few hours a week on that app and have now started spending 5-10 hours per week on a non web based game.

If you have time to do this then make sure you get that book and go for it!

[arcadetown]

Well guys I've been at web games market for 6 years so here's some overall observations...

- It can be profitable if done right.
- Use Flash or Shockwave 3D. Quality can't be quite as high as c++ games but good solid content can be made with right gaming choice (2d puzzle game or lower performance need 3D game).
- You can drive a boat load more demo plays but CR will be lower.
- Good solid quality including compelling gameplay, artwork, sounds, and music are a must. Web games try/buy market is maturing fast and content that sold 1 - 2 years ago won't now.
- There's tons of solid free games so your competing with that.
- There's many online gaming sites that run Flash content, a few less Shockwave, and very few Java. Like traditional affiliates only a select few drive sales worth speaking of.
- Pitch: we run good content and can also publish for you to get out to out numerous partners and utilize our other contacts.
- Key sizing points are 500kb and 1mb depending upon the webmaster. I stayed under 1mb with BLOX Forever and no complaints/problems.
- Put everything into a single Flash .swf or Shockwave .dcr file.
- Include a good load progress bar while game loads.
- File loading is basically all cached such as Flash .swf, Shockwave .dcr, Java .jar, loaded .gif/.jpg, etc.
- Flash or Shockwave can output downloadable game so with right game idea a c++ downloadable version is not needed.

Of course look at us for online try/buy games to see decent examples. Other good places to look at are KewlBox.com (succesful author) and Shockwave.com (includes web games).

[arcadetown]

Hey Roygon, I'd be really interested to see that as figured .NET games could be really cool to take advantage of speed and hardware. Only problem is don't very few people have the .NET runtime installed and being 40+ mb download doesn't it make Java runtime look like a breeze to install?

[roygon]

Brian,

The great thing about going with ASP.NET is that your users don't need the framework - all they need is IE or in many cases any browser will do as the pages will compile differently based on browser and most of the real functionality is on the server anyways. This wouldn't work for the style of game that you are referring to which is more of a real-time graphical type game. Using ASP.NET gives you some very rich, powerful functionality but it is still outputting as a web page (although there are ways to get around this). For some games this works great but for others it doesn't work at all.

In general I believe .NET winforms are a great foundation for building any type of game because of the speed, power, framework (including DirectX) and the ability to automatically compile to other OS'es. This last one has not been realized yet although it is already getting closer with the Mono project on Linux and others will follow. Not sure if that includes DirectX equivalents though.

Regarding the huge framework download, it will soon be a part of any installed OS and as more and more .NET apps are built the number of Windows users with it installed will be very high very. At this point in time though I agree it needs to go on the "CON" side for going with .NET. The new game I'm working on (non web-based) does use .NET but at the pace I'm going I don't plan on releasing it until mid next year anyways so by then it will be less of a problem.

[oNyx]

[...]
* Caching is your friend![...]

Caching is always your friend. I keep caching in mind regardless what I do :)


[...]
- Include a good load progress bar while game loads.
[...]

I really like those games, which offer a small silly game during the loading process. Eg breakout with graphics build out of primitives (a circle and some squares - that's it). The download itself doesn't get much bigger (maybe 4-10kb), but you won't get bored to death while you have to wait.

[arcadetown]

Interestingly enough users don't seem to care about load times as long as it's all loaded up at beginning. We've got some huge 5mb games that are just as popular, if not more, as good smaller 200kb games. Users seem to care most about compelling good solid fun.

Personally I don't recommend those little loading mini games as they're all the same and it just confuses some users with a bunch of extra options or even making them think "this game sucks" and going elsewhere. Perhaps displaying game instructions there might be a good use of time? Really none of the most popular titles I've seen include those.

[moonpxi]

Thanks a lot, roygon!! Your book tip was a real life saver!! :)

[princec]

Couldn't the same effect be achieved rather more simply with PHP?

Cas :)

[Storm]

- You can drive a boat load more demo plays but CR will be lower.


arcadetown, do you have any specific numbers regarding CR that you want to share?

[moonpxi]

Cas, I guess it all depends on what languague your are more used to.

In this web languages, there aren't a big difference between PHP, ASP, JSP, and so on. They surely differ, but I don't think it's a big deal.