Interview with Gish, a strange answer

[Fantus]

Just now I was reading the interview (http://www.gametunnel.com/html/section-viewarticle-94.html) with the dev-team of Gish, on GameTunnel. Here's a piece that I find a bit strange:

Q: How do you think Independent Games will evolve in the future?
A: Alex: I think more people will realize you can't make the game you think people will buy, you have to make the game you want to make.
Josiah: Hopefully more indie developers will realize that they can make any game they can dream up. They don't have to copy other games are try to jump on the latest gaming trend.
Could they ever be more wrong? If I step up to Activision and ask them to publish my game 'because I like it', they would laugh in my face. Building a game that you think will sell is maybe just as important as the fun factor. Who wants to build one game they are crazy about, and after that work for FedEx again because you didn't got a single dollar for it. (not talking about freeware)

And what about those movie based games? Those usually suck, but sell like hot cakes. Although I disapprove this kind of development, I have to admit that thinking up a game that will sell simply works.

In another question they answer:

developers can somehow get away with copying another "successful" published game
I don't see anything wrong in clones. In fact, I've seen clones that are better than the original. I have much respect for those who can take a popular game and give a positive twist to it. Most top 10's of portals are full of clones, it's a fact that people enjoy these kind of games.

What do you think about it?

[ManuelFLara]

I think the best thing a developer can do is make a game that satisfies both requirements (that you like it and that people will buy it). Of course sometimes you'll have to cut down features that you'd like to put into but people will see too complicated (talking about casual market here) and stuff like that.

On the other hand it's also possible to do a game exactly how you want and still get decent sales (Soldat, Gish, Darwinia, Alien Hominid..). You won't possibly get rich that way, but chances are you won't get rich either doing bad puzzle games, as a lot people think. However I think doing the game you want to do, working hard enough in putting in a good interface, tutorial and control scheme is the way to go. Working on a game you like practically guarantees a fun game. If you make it accessible and polished, what's left to make it a good seller?

[svero]

Boy... talk about opening up a can of worms. Of course this has been discussed at great length on these forums already.

My personal view of it is that dervitive works are ok, but outright rip-offs are not. Unfortunately my new game is more or less exactly like another coming out.. so it gets a little hazy in the sense that there may be some natural evolutions to certain kinds of games. Mine is not a clone of the other but it will certainly seem that way. They were developed in parallel from what I can tell using the same basic twist on a 3rd game. The twist itself leads to some natural changes and ideas so those are common. And so on...

So essentially what am I saying? I don't mind wordtris.. tetris with words, but I do mind Tetric blocks (some made up name)... when it's exactly Tetris with a similar name and the gameplay unvaried. That is... just a verbatim copy aimed at selling to the same players that played the original game. It's a grey area though because how do you decide how many changes are enough? For some people like me making words is enough. For others it might not be.

But getting back to the original statements made by the Gish team... I don't think they're exactly speaking to this idea of cloning, or that they're really saying make any old thing at all, it doesn't matter if it sells. I suspect they want people to enjoy the games they make and to sell well etc... I think they're basically saying that if you have an idea thats fun, and it's an idea you have passion for then go for it. I think there's an implicit assumption that something approached with passion will be liked by others and that the extra care and genuine interest in the project that the developer has while making it will show through in the final result, and that that will translate to sales.

[Reactor]

The point they're trying to make is that (from their point of view) indies are so busy trying to make a game that will sell, they're not aiming for great games, or what they want to make (ie: making too many clones)... even though they have the freedom to do so. Based on what I've been reading on this forum, I think they have a point, but a number of things they've said seem quite absent minded. Anyway, that's their point, even though it was put badly... like trying to say I can 'make whatever I want to make, just because I'm indie', which is a load of garbage... I can't.

[baegsi]

I personally believe following idea: the product is the marketing. Going that route, a clone is much harder to market than something innovative/or uncommon. It doesn't have to be a completly new genre (nearly impossible to achieve) but in some way it should be new.

Regarding passion: passion alone is not engough, but without passion you won't have success. And why should I go the indie way if I don't have any passion for my product? It's better to have a regular job with benefits then.

[gamemaker]

Imo, I agree with baegsi...marketing is everything. As much as we'd like to make any highly-original game, if you (or the publishers) don't know how to market it well or they (the publishers) don't get the point of the game then it's not going to get 'out there' and sell loads. I would say it can only be done successfully if you have loads of dosh and channels to market it through.

[mkovacic]

- the Gish guys built their bussines on original/innovative games, and they preach how that approach is the right one
- SteveP built his bussines by making games based on market research, and he preaches how that approach is the right one
- Cas can't make a dime with his games, so he preaches how the whole 1% CR system is broken

Do you see a pattern here? The point is that there are no silver bullets, what works for someone may not work for someone else. Execution is the key.

BTW, don't take the "preaching" bit literarly (sp?), and sorry for the obligatory Cas bashing. ;)

[princec]

Yeah, the funny thing is though, when I make the games I want to make... they don't sell ;)

And yes, I think the 1% model isn't a particularly good one, as it places a lot of emphasis on marketing and other stuff which I didn't get into the industry for. I wanted to write games to make money, not market games, and that 1% thing and pandering to portals doesn't work out well for my goals. Hurrah for Gish for sticking their necks out. I'm not sure why they're doing so well though as Gish isn't really quite as fantastic as everyone has made out (I bought it, and that's what I honestly think of it).

Cas :)

[baegsi]

I'm not sure why they're doing so well though as Gish isn't really quite as fantastic as everyone has made out (I bought it, and that's what I honestly think of it).Maybe it's just this: they took one area, that is the controls of a typical 2D platformer, and changed it to something unique, so that everyone talks about it. (and of course the rest (design+technics) is also pretty good and they had a fanbase) Personally, it wasn't my taste of fun either, but definitely something remarkable enough.

[Winterwolf]

You gotta get with the status quo. You gotta cater to what the customer wants, not develop on mere whims because you simply like the idea. Obviously, the silver bullet would be if you like the idea AND it has a significant market. Otherwise, you gotta MAKE yourself like the idea.

[cliffski]

If you just want to make whatever kind of game sells, go get a day job at EA. they have a pension and health benefits.
Im serious. There is no point in being an indie game developer if you just want to make games you don't like. Its way easier to work for someone else doing that. And if you dont like puzzle games, how the hell do you tell if your current game is any good?
And marketing isn't *everything*. its very important, but however you marketed daikatana, its still daikatana (crap).

[Fantus]

There is no point in being an indie game developer if you just want to make games you don't like.
Usually they end up being crappy games.

[svero]

I don't get why its such a stark choice thing whenever this comes up. There's so much diversity in the kinds of games we could be making. Surely there's something you can find that you both like and think will sell. That subset is not that small. Maybe my tastes are more eclectic than other people's.. donno... Just doesn't seem hard to find an idea I think will sell and I also would have fun making. In fact.. the really really REALLY hard thing. Is to not start making all the ideas I have and pick just 1 project out of the hundreds that interest me.

[princec]

I think the key thing most people grok here is that you can make whatever game you feel like but some games are easier to sell using the 1%-CR-downloadable-demo-model than others.

Cas :)

[Jim Buck]

Does anyone here know if Gish actually sold well (i.e. had a 1% or more CR)? I'm *really* curious if it really did so well in sales compared to all the press it gets.

[svero]

Id be curious to know as well. My guess is it did ok, but not as well as the press would have you believe. For what it's worth I bought it :-)

[Vorax]

Gish has been #1 for sales according to Game Tunnel for what seems like a long time, but that's not necessarily an accurate measure of it's total sales success, just a hint.

I for one agree with their comment...mostly. I have been beat down a bit by some of the other views on the topic posted on the various related threads, by a simple point. Not everyone has good taste in games, and many of those people don't realize it. If these people make the games they want, they'll likely regret it. No amount of loving will turn a turd it into chocolate

[ManuelFLara]

Gish was also #1 selling game on GarageGames, althought now it's not even in the top 5.

[Diodor Bitan]

Original post by cliffski
There is no point in being an indie game developer if you just want to make games you don't like.

Making the games you like to make and making games you like to play are different things - I have enjoyed writing the AI for an Othello clone enough that I don't really regret spending the time on a game I didn't like to play (and that didn't sell either).

[dima]

Its true, making games should be fun, but for some it's a business, so they must do what they can to survive. If you make games for fun and enjoyment, no worries in writing something you think is fun, but for a business, you have to make sure the game will sell, or else the business might fail. The trick is to write a game that you would enjoy playing and at the same time will have market value.

[Jim Buck]

Well, Gish won a few awards tonight, but I'm still curious what they did in sales. :) What does them being "#1 in sales on Game Tunnel" really mean since GT is a review site, not a sales site?

[baegsi]

I hope Gish sold good because if you can't sell a game with all that media awareness we're doomed to make puzzle games...

[Ricardo C]

I hope Gish sold good because if you can't sell a game with all that media awareness we're doomed to make puzzle games...

No, we're "doomed" to make FUN games. Gish is very innovative, but not that much fun to play. Innovation in games is only good if the end result is fun.

[baegsi]

I think one can argue whether Gish is fun or not. No game can please everyone. A lot people think its fun. But from the business view, Gish made everything right. It's high quality, uncommon, has a large fanbase and created a lot of awareness. If this is not enough to have success, creating successful games is much more luck than everything else.

[Savant]

Gish's main problem, as I see it, is that it's relying on a nerdy hook to sell it - the physics. Casual gamers don't care about that. If Gish was totally faked and played basically the same, they wouldn't know the difference. It got tons of press and coverage because of what it was doing tech wise, not because it was an especially fun or compelling game. I'm not sure that will translate into big sales long term.

I'd be willing to bet that their bridge builder games have sold more than Gish.

[princec]

I liked Gish's physics, and they are what sells the game, it's the unique feature that no-one else has done before. Unfortunately the graphics were so dowdy and drab I just couldn't be compelled to explore much further than the second level.

Cas :)

[Teeth]

I think I mainly bought it because the music in the gameplay movies they released was so good.

[baegsi]

Casual gamers don't care about that.I don't think casual gamers is the only market to have success in. IMHO there is more than casual puzzle vs. hardcore half-life 2 gamers

[Reactor]

I got the impression that most people purchased Gish because they enjoyed the old skool platformer style, that hasn't been done too well these last few years. It may not be the most fun platformer ever, but it does bring back memories of the older Amiga platformers. Reading a Gamespy discussion on the game, that was certainly why it appealed to them.