Our forum is growing...

[Mike Boeh]

I am happy to say that our forums here are growing fast. Just 6 months ago, in September, we averaged 322 unique visitors per day. Now, for February, we are up to 822. So we have managed to double our user base in just 6 months.

Obviously, 822 unique visitors per day is nothing amazing, but that's a certainly lot of game developers. It seems like this board generally attracts the more serious developer which is definitely a good thing.

However, one disturbing thing is the number of "heated debates that have some personal insults" that I have seen over the past couple months. So I pose the question to you, "how do we continue to keep the board professional, with high quality posts". And please, keep it constructive :)

[Badman]

This is tough, because a lot of the heat has been expended on subjects that are perfectly on-topic on these forums, like the debate about Snood.

In the end, forums like this are only useful until they dip down into Usenet-style flamewars; then all the reasonable people become disgusted and leave, and the zealots fight each other for all eternity. I've seen it again and again.

And in the end, the only thing that prevents it is either self-discipline on the part of the users, or heavy moderator intervention. Most forums start by depending on the former and end up depending on the latter. I'd hate for people's posts to start disappearing because they got a little heated, and I'd hate more for some poor person to actually have to spend time doing the moderation. But I'd hate even MORE for this forum to become unusable for the purpose it was designed.

[Reactor]

If you call that disturbing, you haven't been on the internet for long. I've been on boards with high paid professional artists, and heated discussions still take place. Passionate people mixing on the internet- you just deal with the heated discussions when they arrive. To only have a few over a number of months is as good as you're going to get it... in my opinion, anyway.

[ggambett]

I still think the forums are very high quality, despite some of these "heated discussions" and the occasional gamedevesque thread, but the later gets closed and deleted quickly, in general.

To maintain or increase the quality of the posts, all we need is a little more ettiquete, which the older members should adopt to set an example to newcomers. For example, do not reply to threads that should be ignored or deleted. Do not reply to clearly flamebait threads. Know when it's time to continue a conversation in private messages or email instead of hijacking a thread. And so on.

Maybe implementing the "obligatory lurking period" that was discussed more than once. That saves us from threads like the recent one advertising a MMOG item exchange, or from "I wants 2 mak teh cool MMORPSDGBMNQG! kidz". I think even a 1-week period would be a good filter.

[Mike Boeh]

Maybe I should have reworded it to "minorly disturbing". And I agree that the forums are still high quality. I just want to be in a position to react to stuff before it becomes a problem...

I guess I am just looking for suggestions to make forums.indiegamer.com better, that's all :)

[svero]

Ive looked into implementing lurk periods and stuff like that. It wasn't really obvious how to do that in the admin console. Admittedly I didn't look real hard, but there was nothing obvious in the user options.

[princec]

All it needs is even-handed moderation. Threads need to get locked when they wander off topic too far, and messages need to be deleted (not just "replied to by a mod") if they're flamebait/insulting/pointless.

Cas :)

[Andy]

All it needs is even-handed moderation. Threads need to get locked when they wander off topic too far, and messages need to be deleted (not just "replied to by a mod") if they're flamebait/insulting/pointless.

Cas :)

Aren't going to write in forums anymore Cas? :D

PS Congrats with good and healthy growing guys. Even after all my words in different thread I suppose these forums are pretty useful and valuable resource - at least to stay in touch with another guys who knows amount in the area. Thanks!!!

[Winterwolf]

Some points that I though might improve the qualityof our ever-growing forums:

1) Moderator-control: Probably the moist obvious but the most siginificant factor that affects quality of the material is how well the moderators cull information that is insulting, very controversial, spam, other nonsense. This ofcourse depends on the moderators.

2) Rating System: In many messageboards a rating system is usaully present. Our boards probably do have a rating system available, but are disabled. Dont know.

3) Member to View: If you're like me, I am usaully VERY averse to register for any forum, or I may procrastinate for a couple of months before doing so. I dunno, I probably do this just to avoid the hassle i.e. laziness. I realized later that if it was a requirement for me to register to view threads, and if the forums had top-nothc disucssions (like Indiegamer) then I would register right away. (Btw, I realized this because of the site softwareceo.com which had AMAZING and INFORMATIVE threads, but you to register to view, and so I did)

[baegsi]

Lately, I find it more difficult to catch up with all the new posts coming up every day. Maybe a finer structuring of the sub forums could help. Or a possibility to filter (or at least sort) new post regarding the belonging to a forum.

[Jay_Kyburz]

1) Moderator-control: Probably the moist obvious but the most siginificant factor that affects quality of the material is how well the moderators cull information that is insulting, very controversial, spam, other nonsense. This ofcourse depends on the moderators.


I think good moderation is important.

Somebody mentioned locked treads when they wonder off topic but I think its natural for a conversation to flow onto other things.

The recent introduction of the n00b section was a good move. (that is new right?)

I even enjoy the regular, Blitz vs Flash vs C++ flame war. How else will I get know the strengths and weakness of each system.

The only things I don't want to see in here is personal insults and abuse.

One thing i like about the forum is the lack of images. Keeps things neat and tidy.

[Hiro_Antagonist]

I just wanted to say I've really enjoyed having these forums available. They've help provide me with inspiration, feedback, contacts, and ideas.

As for what to do to keep them great -- things seem pretty stable to me. Unless the work load is getting to be too much for you moderators, I wouldn't change a thing.

For anyone that's having trouble managing all the new threads, I recently discovered the usefulness of the 'New Posts' button on the top bar, and that has become my exclusive way of browsing. If you haven't tried it, I encourage you to.

Thnx for the great forum, guys.

-Hiro_Antagonist

[Chris Evans]

To be honest, after a couple of rough months I think things here are going well now.

I think the Indie Basics forum is a great addition. It's helped clean up the business forum, but still provides some useful information in itself.

Also it seems some of the long time members are showing restraint when an Off-Topic or Newb Topic shows up in the wrong place. A few months ago, some members would write scathing replies if the topic wasn't up to standards. However, now it seems most people are ignoring those topics (which is the best thing to do) and letting the moderators or someone who has patience handle it.

Finally there's nothing wrong with debates as long as it doesn't result in personal attacks. We shouldn't be afraid to disagree with each other.

[James C. Smith]

I wish we could find a way to attract more experienced game developers and distributors. Most of the bigger players only drop in to defend themselves when they hear that their product or service was mentioned in the forum. Or they stop in to announce their new game and that’s about it. I guess part of the problem is that the people who are successful have less to gain by hanging out here (or they thing that is the case). It seems like the people who are struggling to make it work are more likely to seek out advice and visit the forum.

Or maybe the Indie name scares away people who don’t consider themselves Indie.

I think it is the people who are most passionate and excited about their work that are the ones who love to come here and hang out with likeminded peers. But experienced guys who want to bounce ideas off of other developers and share the tricks of the trade probably get board with all the newbie questions.

I know I am just rambling here and don’t have any concrete advice. My point is that I don’t think anything is necessarily broken. I just wish we could find a way to make it better. The direction I wish we could take is any direction that would encourage more experienced developers to share their experience and ideas.

[Dan MacDonald]

In fact, James is a perfect example of an experienced develoer who spends a lot of time sharing his experiences on the forums. Guys like him add a ton of value to the forums, and without the willingness of more experienced developers to step out and spend some time giving to community these forums would be a lot less useful.

It's hard to have a forum where it's just a bunch of professionals who get together to discuss their industry in a professional manner. However I do think that we strive to have a cultural value of professionalism on these forums and I believe this is a large part of what makes them a valuable resource and a place that is "accessable" to the varioius professionals who drop by from time to time.

Now if only Retro64 would post more.... :P

[cliffski]

just my view: there are almost too many posts now, I spend time reading when I should be coding :D
I'd be in favour of:

mandatory 1 week or even 2 week lurk period
Register to view

I'd even be in favour of paid membership, $10-30 a year would be fair enough, and would offset hosting costs.
I dread any descent into gamedev.net 'ness.

[Reactor]

One small thing I'd like to see adjusted is the "OMG I have to lock this thread before the world comes to an end!" mentality of (a few of) the mods. I mention this because a thread in the general chat forum was locked recently, for no apparent reason. I think a community aspect of the forum should exist, and threads should be allowed in the chat section that may even appear pointless in content. However, the chat forum shouldn't be archived as the other heavily moderated forums are.

I've seen many of the more common indie developers on this forum spend time laughing at each others off-topic jokes or experiences (in the middle of a thread), and generally conversing like good friends (mods included) while anyone else new is often warned that they're going too far off topic. It seems a little wrong to me. If there's going to be a little general banter and the opportunity for developers to mingle and get to know one another (which is one great thing about being indie- that is, you don't have to uphold a 'professional' image all the time) there should be a place to do so, where no one is in fear of having their thread closed. Of course, when it comes to insults and the like, there would be limits.

I hope someone understands my point in all of this. The geneal concensus around this forum is that there are a few things needed to uphold the excellence of the forum. One- both professionals and amateurs contributing. Two- As little noise as possible. I'd like to suggest a third- a place for the community to grow. Perhaps that isn't what the purpose of this forum was initially to be, but since Retro64 is asking what would make things better, that's what I believe would.

[Andy]

Now if only Retro64 would post more.... :P

Wait a little bit Dan - Mike should consider new correct names for all his games. :D

But Yes. I'm second one for that - What the hell Mike? Where is your willingness to help me? (money, food, cheewing gum?) ;)

[Mark Fassett]

@Reactor - The focus of the boards has always been indie game development and the business surrounding it. It has been the position of the Administrators (Dan and Svero) that anything not relating to indie game development is not appropriate, and they lock the threads. Personally, I agree with it. One of the reasons this place is as good as it is is because much of the off topic stuff isn't allowed. There is typically very little noise compared to places like gamedev.net. I don't think that allowing non-game related posts would improve the forum in any way. If you want to chat with someone about other stuff, you can PM them, email them, chat in IRC or IM. Allowing idle, non-game related chit chat in the general chat forum is a slippery slope, as far as I'm concerned. The day the lounge opened up in gamedev.net is the day it started going downhill.

[svero]

I understand the locked threads can be annoying, but I believe overall most of the time when a thread is locked its the right decision and that it does help keep the board clean and on topic, and prevent threads from rambling on.

cliff wrote "just my view: there are almost too many posts now, I spend time reading when I should be coding "

That's actually a clever ploy by twilight and retro64 to put off development of democracy until we can get the jointly developed game "Politico" to market. Thanks for the betas. They've been invaluable sources for ideas.

[Reactor]

Yes, I understand the intended direction of the forum, but if there isn't to be a chat section, simply delete it or rewrite the rules surrounding it. Read the blurb under the forum heading and you'll notice that it doesn't agree with what you guys just told me. Even so, there are off-topic posts in every forum, and the people who seem to be getting away with them are the chummy-chummy guys from the past forum. You mention threads getting locked when they ramble on, but I've seen many threads by moderators and (excuse the term) 'friends of the mods' when often bore me to death in a thread with what appears to be pointless rambling/joke telling/chat-chat, etc.

The day the lounge opened up in gamedev.net is the day it started going downhill.

The day they allowed utter garbage is the day is went downhill. Anyhow, my point is- if you're going to build a community, my suggestion is to loose the paranoia and build it, and allow people to connect on a forum like this... not just over email, or by private message. If you're not, then kill it once and for all to eliminate confusion. No chit-chat, no rambling, no noise- just a resource of on-topic information.

Thanks for listening.

[princec]

I've not noticed such a thread for a long time, if at all... I have noticed a few arguments popping up though.

Cas :)

[BantamCityGames]

just my view: there are almost too many posts now, I spend time reading when I should be coding :D

I can't tell you how much time I spend on these boards that could be better spent coding... for example, I'm making this post instead of adding a new background image to Invadazoid. ;) Damn it... you got me again!

[Mike Boeh]

We won't necessarily do anything right now anyway... I am just interested in what you guys think could make it better.

I do agree that with the growth, the number of posts has grown to the point where I can't read them all- not even close. I just skim the new posts and look for the ones that I think will be interesting. But what doesn't appeal to me will likely appeal to someone else, so that's okay- just the price we pay for having a busy forum.

I agree with Steve and Mark about keeping the posts on topic. There are plenty of other places to debate politics and other stuff. I consider posts like "View from your window" to be on-topic enough.

[tolik]

I've been moderating couple of forums over the past 5 years with different amount of messages: 70k (owner) /150 (co-owner) / smaller ones.

This forum is very professional, I've always tried to achieve something similar but had to rely on more casual people so my interests (as admin) were shifting a bit. vB is the greatest forum software (though having awfull licensing agreements), hosting is great and admins are pros.

The only thing which I might point is the overall subject of the things we are talking about. Most of the high-profile Indie people to not tend to reveal their intentions and plans - they do not care about sharing any info. This is business and money, as you know. Professional secrets are professional secrets.

Most of us are probably treated as kids playing in the sand-box by the big guys (i mean view from the top), thus not giving serious attention and, sometimes, proper respect - though I haven't seen any serious problems with that.

Now, back to the audience.

We are professionals and everyone should treat the etiquette in the same level. Since the forum is pro-oriented, most of us already know it. However, as noted by other people, we are starting to observe troll and post-kiddie behavior in unproper (i mean unsuited) forums, which is, to some extent, annoying.

Since it's up to administrators and moderators to set up the level of overall tolerance, we could only indicate that BLING-BLING which is singing in our heads.

I'm (also) generally feeling that some threads are dying after 1-line offtopic by some persons.

[ibsta]

Like Winterwolf and Cliffski said, I think I good way to increase the "quality" of the posts is to make it mandatory to register. Its not that big of a deal, but by doing this, we should see a significant difference.

Its like what ASP did with the $100 annual fee, so that only serious developers would be there. Our requirement of registering, is ofcourse, not as stringent, ie. there is no monatery requirement.

[James C. Smith]

I wanted to clarify one point. I said I would like anything that would “encourage more experienced developers to share their experience and ideas” Several replies after mine mentioned things like “bunch of professionals who get together to discuss their industry” or “both professionals and amateurs contributing.” I don’t know if those were in response to what I said or just separate points. I wanted to clarify that the valuable sharing from experienced developers that I was looking for is NOT necessarily from “professionals”. I don’t care if you are one guy working part time in the basement, or one guy making a full time job out of this with very low overhead, or a bigger company with several employees. I just want more people with experience and something to share rather than all newbie questions. Many “amateurs” have just as lots of experience and just as much info to share as the “professionals” do.

Now if only Retro64 would post more.... :P Now that’s what I’m talking about. Come on Mike. Tell us all about how the special effects work in Cosmo Bugs.

I would also love to see more technical discussions. But I guess the business side Indie games is what makes them different than other game development. If I just wanted to talk about renderers and path finding I could go to any other Game Dev forum. And if I really want more technical discussions I guess I should start them.

[Mike Boeh]

Now if only Retro64 would post more.... :P

The only thing which I might point is the overall subject of the things we are talking about. Most of the high-profile Indie people to not tend to reveal their intentions and plans - they do not care about sharing any info. This is business and money, as you know. Professional secrets are professional secrets.
@Dan: Damn, I thought over 200 posts was enough...

@emuLynx: I don't think there are any big secrets to share. The only thing I keep private is how much money Retro64 makes. I feel that is private information and wouldn't be good to share anyway.

We have a very good portion of the downloadable industry posting here, and I think that's definitely a good thing and something we want to encourage.


Most of us are probably treated as kids playing in the sand-box by the big guys (i mean view from the top), thus not giving serious attention and, sometimes, proper respect - though I haven't seen any serious problems with that.
Who are the ones viewing from the top? It's all a matter of scale. I suppose I am ahead of most inides because I make a good full-time living from it. But compared to Popcap or Reflexive, Retro64 is small potatoes. But for the sake of argument, let's say I am one of the people you are referring to. And if so, I disagree with your point. I value the opinions of most people here, especially yours- since you seem to have one of the best critical eyes on this forum. As James pointed out, you don't have to have a thriving indie company to contribute.


Now that’s what I’m talking about. Come on Mike. Tell us all about how the special effects work in Cosmo Bugs.

I would also love to see more technical discussions. But I guess the business side Indie games is what makes them different than other game development. If I just wanted to talk about renderers and path finding I could go to any other Game Dev forum. And if I really want more technical discussions I guess I should start them

In particular, I would love to see more technical discussions of 2D game development. I am not too interested in a lot of shader talk :) I could do a technical post about how cosmo works, but is there anything in there that's really earth shattering? It basically works the same way that your games do James.

[GBGames]

We could be self-moderating. If people are reading the beginnings of a flamewar that detracts from the topic at hand, say so. Ask that the posters either stop or pm each other instead of muddying up the waters.

It is much better than having some moderator perceived as "on his high horse" when EVERYONE on the board is at the same level, right?

[svero]

I agree with r64 on the big secrets thing. Aside from sales figures, which I also believe are best kept private, I don't see that there's much being held back.

I also don't know if I'd be considered one of the people keeping secrets, but from my point of view whenever I try to share something that I think is important about the business, the people who are struggling are really great at doing whatever it was they were doing in the first place.

Also a lot of the stuff that I need to do and that people behind me in terms of the evolution of their companies need to do boils down to time and hard work. Im not afraid to share a good game or business idea because the implementation is really the key. There's no magic secret to getting a merchant account up and running, or writing a good wrapper and backend to solidify and test your marketing. Its jut a bunch of stuff you have to do and some people will stick with it and do the work and some wont. All I see ahead of me is a mountain of stuff to improve on. Far more than I have time for. So Im happy to tell whatever I think. Most people wont do the work that it means anyway, and if they will... well it will take some time. I don't feel competitively threatened in that sense.

As for bigger companies like popcap and reflexive. For the most part I've found them to be pretty candid and answer just about everything asked. I think they probably share in the view that it isn't so much about secrets and competitive advantage as hard work, and talent.

[Dan MacDonald]

I wanted to clarify that the valuable sharing from experienced developers that I was looking for is NOT necessarily from “professionals”.

I don't attach the word professional to having a profitable ESD game company. To me a professional is anyone who knows how to finish a game to a professional level of quality/polish (aka an experienced game developer). I also attach the word "professional" to someone who conducts themselves in a professional manner. We have a few on the forums who use the forums for socialization as opposed to just a resource for game development. They make jokes or one liners that are targeted at one poster in the thread and don't really add anything to the topic being discussed in the thread.

While not expressly prohibited, I would prefer to not have the forums as a social vector, but rather one where people stick to the topic at hand. It's impossible to have a successful forum without developing some sense of community, and that's why we have the general forums. I would like to see the off topic jokes and one liners left out of the other forums. If someone wants to poke fun of Andy's "workspace" in the picture thread in the general forums, that's one thing. But referring to it or teasing Andy about it in a thread like "The great 2D engine stress test" (no one has done this, it's purely hypothetical) would not be appropriate.

[Andy]

But referring to it or teasing Andy about it in a thread like "The great 2D engine stress test" (no one has done this, it's purely hypothetical) would not be appropriate.

I just started to scream before finished to read (pardon!): What the hell I made wrong with 2D engines?! - I dunno even what it is! :D

[Armsfeld]

Design for Community by Derek Powazek contains top-notch advice for managing online communities. According to Derek, explicit guidelines are essential for maintaining the quality of a growing community. If you have the ability to edit this forum's user agreement and FAQ, add guidelines for acceptable use. These guidelines should specify what is expected and tolerated.

Moderators shouldn't have to defend their decisions, but a small notice at the end of locked threads (with a link to the community guidelines that were violated) would encourage more cooperation.

[Greg Squire]

First of all, I must state that I think this forum is "the best resource" for all of us Indie's. I think there has been very little noise on these forums. For the most part, posts are on-topic and flame wars have been kept to a minimum, and I credit the admins/moderators for this.

The most important thing (in my mind) in maintaining the quality of these forums is "Moderator Control". I realize this takes time and effort, but sometimes there is no substitue for it. I believe that "trolls" and other malicious posters need to be banned when they appear, and threads need to be locked when they get out of hand. I know some think that that is harsh, but if the "reins aren't pulled when the horse (the threads) is out of control", then there may be "many that will bail out of the wagon (the forums)". We certainly want to keep the good people here.

I've thought about mandatory lurking periods, as this has been mentioned. I agree that this could work as a way to limit "trolls" and "spammers", but it might also might prevent some very good legitimate posts from people that don't frequent these forums. An example would be, Jeff Tunnell's post in the "GDC Plans" thread. We never would have heard from him if there was a "mandatory lurk period". There have been some occasional visits here from other well connected individuals in the industry, and we certainly don't want to discourage that. As far as keeping those users here more, I don't have a good answer to that. Many of them are just simply busy, and don't have the time; some simply may not know about these forums yet; and other's might not view this as a good resource for them (if so then they haven't looked hard enough :) ).