American-slanted games?

[cliffski]

Just played popcaps heavy weapons. Firstly, it had a download stub thing which annoys me anyway (i think I've downloaded it, only I haven't...) and due to a 'known bug' the damn installer is impossible to delete from my desktop after install. Thanks popcap.
Anyway....
the game itself is quite good fun, a bit too cartoony for me, but its struck an awkward chord with me in its pro-american, anti-communist anti-european backstory. Maybe I'm being ultra-touchy, but this really wound me up. This is a game where I am hopelessly outnumbered against a powefull enemy who wants to 'take away my freedom', yet I'm playing the americans? When was the US army last outnumbered and outgunned?
Games like this are just mindless fun, by all means make me part of the red team shooting the evil blue team, but when the world is as it is now, with the 1500th dead US marine yesterday, threats of more wars in iran etc, is this the right time to release a game like this? Anti-american feeling globally has never been higher, aren't popcap shooting themselves in the foot slightly by doing a "kill the commies in the name of freedom" game? The game would have been just as fun with a sci-fi or WW2 setting.
I'm not trying to start a political debate, more a debate as to how games can be made in one country (I'm kinda guessing the US in this case) without realising how its perceived outside that country. You never knew who you are going to offend. I had someone complain bitterly that one of the diseases in Starship tycoon was sarcastic about linux (seriously) for example...

[princec]

Some companies like to have a political hot potato. There's nothing more handy for marketing than a decisive split over a controversial issue. Just ask any politician.

I'd quite like to do a Shoot Bush In The Head game. It'll alienate the 125m Bush supporters but be very popular with... er.. everyone else in the entire world.

Cas :)

[baegsi]

I agree, it's a really delicate subject. That's probably the reason they call it 80s style because that's the time of the cold war. But most games today let you choose one side. IMO it also doesn't fit their other games. Maybe they want to expand their customer base and get some action fans on board.

[Badman]

This is a tough one. Popcap obviously knew what the consequences of releasing the game might be and did so anyway. They are free to do so, obviously. Did they do it to increase sales in the US, knowing that they might lose sales elsewhere? Hmmm...possibly. I would be very interested to see if their tactic results in more overall sales.

Of course, this isn't the first game I've seen that exploits the current political situation in the US to try to get sales...there was this one commercially-released game I heard about where you actually had to fistfight Osama bin Laden at the end! And Command & Conquer: Generals did the same thing, including a terrorist side that even uses traditional terrorist tactics - suicide belts and car bombs. But C&C: Generals actually had some gameplay to back it up.

As for your complaint that the game isn't "realistic" because the American military isn't outnumbered and outgunned...well, it is a GAME, after all...

But if it had been my call, I probably wouldn't have done it; I'd have abstracted it like you suggested, Cliffski. This despite the fact that I'm pretty sure I have a different take on the Iraq war than you do :)

By the way - go on and guess what I've been firing up lately when I need a ten-minute diversion. Go on, guess. Time's up! It's Asteroid Miner.

[Raptisoft]

Maybe Popcap didn't think the world gaming community was a colony of overwrought little girls who are as sensitive as a fresh burn?

Besides, are you guys implying that freedom and fighting things like Communism are strictly American? That's kinda shafting the rest of the world, isn't it?

[adhominem]

It's possible that there was satirical intent.

[Kai Backman]

It's possible that there was satirical intent.

Thanks James. That comment made my day .. ;)

Satire and it's cousin irony are difficult arts. You easily risk being misunderstood.

[Gnatinator]

I noticed this too when I downloaded heavy weapon yesterday.

I do not think its necessarily a bad thing for us though. Popcap is just letting up on parts of its market.

[Dan Prigg]

Jason,

you guys obviously did not go over the top enough for satirical content. I loved Heavy Weapon, reminded me of Strangelove. I learned to love the bomb again.

[baegsi]

I can't think of a more difficult task than putting satire into a game. Sorry, but I don't see any Dr. Strangelove connection here...

Besides that - it's a really nice game, great arcade feeling, just played the demo in one go and I'm hardly an action gamer. Good luck with it!

[cliffski]

Dan hit the nail. if it was way more over the top then theres no escaping the satire. The thing is with global politics getting more divisive and extreme in both directions, its getting way harder to tell the difference between satire and extremism! I didn't see the game as satirical myself, but thats just a British liberal take on it maybe. I must be insane to try and do a game like democracy (http://www.democracygame.com) . I'm going to get flamed to oblivion from both sides....

[Barknee Holden]

Well, when a country re-elects a jingoistic militant as its president, I think it's safe to say there's a chance the message in a game like Heavy Weapon will not be interpreted as satire, no matter how extreme.

;)

[adhominem]

We had kind of thought a game called Heavy Weapon: Atomic Tank! set in 1984, featuring an enormous tank that shoots nuclear missiles fighting generic "commies," introduced by a theme song featuring the lyrics:

A lonely warrior rumbling across plains of naked aggression
From Frigistan to Killingrad... his is the vehicle of oppression...
Atomic Tank!
Nuke-lee-yer!
Atomic Tank!
Warr-ee-oooorrr!

... would be seen as at least slightly tongue in cheek. I guess it goes to show ya.

[cliffski]

aha... I turned the music off ya see. Hence my complete failure to detect the true nature of the game :D

[electronicStar]

We had kind of thought a game called Heavy Weapon: Atomic Tank! set in 1984, featuring an enormous tank that shoots nuclear missiles fighting generic "commies," introduced by a theme song featuring the lyrics:

A lonely warrior rumbling across plains of naked aggression
From Frigistan to Killingrad... his is the vehicle of oppression...
Atomic Tank!
Nuke-lee-yer!
Atomic Tank!
Warr-ee-oooorrr!

... would be seen as at least slightly tongue in cheek. I guess it goes to show ya.
Well it's all a question of context.
It's much less fun in the current context :o

[adhominem]

There's a better time than now to laugh at American aggression? (I'm actually Canadian, myself)

[NuriumGames]

Tried the game, very nice indeed. I was unsure if it was satire or not but I thought it was as it seems to be.

There's a better time than now to laugh at American aggression?
No, unless you're American or from some evil country.

[Midnight Synergy]

I didn't take it seriously myself. I wouldn't call it satire though, just tongue in cheek. I can see how some people might have a knee-jerk reaction to the beginning though, esp. once the guitar and heavy voice kick in, you might frighten old grandmothers who were used to playing Bejeweled off their chairs!

I played a little last night and didn't care much for it on first impression, but I played a bit more today and am starting to like it more. There are some gameplay issues I'm not crazy about, but there's definitely a lot of motivation to see the next country, next boss, next gas station (although "Ground Zero Gas" was used twice in a row :( )

Jason, can you at all share what the reaction to the game has been so far?(i.e. did it launch as well as other games? did you get negative comments from people not expecting violent games at Popcap?). I assume you're not so much banking on your regular customers, but are branching out to new audiences?

Also, any release date on PopQuest yet (pant pant)? :D

[adhominem]

It's a bit too soon for us to know what Heavy Weapon's overall reception will be. We are trying to reach out to a different crowd with it, obviously... for instance, we're running some ads on Penny Arcade (www.penny-arcade.com). There have been a handful of complaints so far from people complaining either about the violence or the "anti-liberal" bias, but no storm of protest at this point.

It hasn't gone up on any portals yet, so it's too early to tell how it'll do on sites like Real or Yahoo. It is indeed quite a departure from Bejeweled and the like... it may not work. But apart from being the kind of game that >I< wanted to play myself, it's an experiment to see if we can interest the Bejeweled types in something a bit more frenetic, and/or attract a different crowd that likes that sort of thing. It's also pushing the envelope for us in terms of the violence and "political" humor, but that too was something we wanted to test out.

I certainly wouldn't want to encourage anyone to rush off to start making "Heavy Weapon Quest" or "Big Weapon Reef" just quite yet, though.

[Screwball]

Not Trying to de-rail the thread or anything, but I wouldn't mind seeing a game based on, or at least using the same humor as, Team America. Damn that movie made me laugh.

However, Heavy Weapon does look like a pretty neat game, and the majority of the time I tend to overlook any real political standings, intentional or otherwise.





PS. The word is COLOUR, thats right C - O - L - O - U - R !!!!

[RedKnight]

I like to played a game where I can ram a skycraper with boeing 747.
but with more *Tongue in the cheeks* comedy. :D

[bentlegen]

There have been a handful of complaints so far from people complaining either about the violence or the "anti-liberal" bias, but no storm of protest at this point.Wow, I feel bad for the liberals who can't see the humor in this game. Are these the same people who thought Team America was the love child of Dick Cheney?

- ben

[Rebrehc's Industries]

It hasn't gone up on any portals yet, so it's too early to tell how it'll do on sites like Real or Yahoo. It is indeed quite a departure from Bejeweled and the like... it may not work. But apart from being the kind of game that >I< wanted to play myself, it's an experiment to see if we can interest the Bejeweled types in something a bit more frenetic, and/or attract a different crowd that likes that sort of thing. It's also pushing the envelope for us in terms of the violence and "political" humor, but that too was something we wanted to test out.

I certainly wouldn't want to encourage anyone to rush off to start making "Heavy Weapon Quest" or "Big Weapon Reef" just quite yet, though.

Actually, I downloaded it from Real last night. Can't say I cared much for it, but since I am female, you all will probably relegate my opinion to the soccer mom category and ignore it, although I have no kids.

[Abscissa]

but since I am female, you all will probably relegate my opinion to the soccer mom category and ignore it, although I have no kids.Huh? Why in the world would we do that? That would be one heck of an irrational assumption. You're not trying to call us sexists are you?

[KNau]

Okay, flat-out - you are all nuts!

It's not a friggin' documentary. Getting bent out of shape over the "politics" of a simple action arcade game borders on a psychological disorder. Does Hamster Ball offend you on behalf of animal rights? Get over yourselves!

I didn't think much of it before but, you know, we really are a whiny bunch on these boards. Unbelievable!

[Chris Evans]

I certainly wouldn't want to encourage anyone to rush off to start making "Heavy Weapon Quest" or "Big Weapon Reef" just quite yet, though.

LOL! This made me laugh.

[Shane Wegner]

I also noticed the tone of this game was enough to stand out as being a little tongue in cheek. The whole lighthearted approach to using nuclear weapons was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I suppose to people who really care about nuclear weapons, it would all seem very cavalier.

I dunno, the whole "Let's do 1950's cold war battle against red communism--er, again" theme didn't entirely do it for me. Odd that PopCap's repertoire now includes: Stone frog which shoots marbles, stereotyped bad accent chinese monster thing that lights fireworks, pretty gems, dinosaur eggs, some kind of bookworm thing that spells words and... nuclear tank thing that nukes commie bastards to hell? It's a weird IP to add to their otherwise non-violent stable of games.

[george]

but when the world is as it is now, with the 1500th dead US marine yesterday, threats of more wars in iran etc

and also 100,000 dead IRAQI CIVILIANS (many of them women and children)...

[James C. Smith]

I thought the game was hilarious. I don’t see how anyone could take it seriously. Josh, Jason and crew did a fantastic job on this one.

[Raptisoft]

It's not a friggin' documentary. Getting bent out of shape over the "politics" of a simple action arcade game borders on a psychological disorder. Does Hamster Ball offend you on behalf of animal rights? Get over yourselves!

Believe it or not, we HAVE received over 50 e-mails to that effect.

[Badman]

and also 100,000 dead IRAQI CIVILIANS (many of them women and children)...
I debated internally whether or not to respond to this. Part of me said, "Just let it go...they're going to believe what they want to believe no matter what the facts are."

But another part of me said, "This is how lies become accepted as truth, because people say them over and over and no one ever challenges them."

The idea that over 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died since the war started is a lie. It's a bald-faced lie (http://www.techcentralstation.com/102904J.html), concocted by partisan leftist researchers who did their work with no peer review and used shoddy methodology in an obvious attempt to sway the US Presidential election. Even iraqibodycount.org (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/), a fiercely anti-war site that counts how many people have been killed in Iraq as a result of the war, rejected their findings. (While I applaud iraqibodycount.org's work because I believe that it is important to remember the costs of this war, they insist on labelling every single death a "civilian" death, which I obviously don't agree with; when you pick up a rifle and fire it at a Marine, you cease to be a civilian).

I am aware that there are a lot of Europeans on these forums, and that the war in Iraq was not popular in Europe. That's fine, but if you're going to criticize the war, do it with facts - or better yet, let's not do it in these forums at all.

[cliffski]

lets lock this thread as this is no place to discuss the politics of the iraq war. I think we all know the intent of the game now, and what percentage of people it upsets.
As I recall that bodycount figure came from the lancet. Thats basically THE UK academic medical journal as far as i know, and certainly not some 'left wing ultra-liberal" anything. I might be wrong on that, but as a UK citizen, when I hear the lancet quoted in the news its always a serious academic study, certainly not political.
ho hum.

[princec]

There are no facts in war, only propaganda.

Cas :)

[gpetersz]

Well said princec. ;)

I didn't want to interfere this topic but named as a European and as non-american I think I should.

A game won't do any difference about how the rest of the world regards the US. (Moreover, many Europeans (including me) will be able to differentiate US goverment (and the acts of the empire) from a US citizen. I have many contacts in the US and all are kind people. )
You can't look a game as something what is real! It is a game.
If I'd taken Call of Duty: United Offensive real I'd had laughed my ass of when Shermans destroyed the Tigers with only 1 shot. But it was a game, and after
I was terrorized for 10 minutes by the german stormtroops I really welcomed the armour (or armor?) :).

My advice is simple as that: Take it easy!

[Nonz]

Personally I found Heavy Weapon a bit too repetitive for my taste.

That and it's blatent disreagard for the safety and well being of innocent munitions.

:D

Nonz.

[Raptisoft]

If you want to sum up people's attituted toward America, Europe, China, and everything else in general, you can do it in one line: "Chicks don't dig nice guys."

Case in point:

If China or North Korea decide to cut down their civilian slaughter from 50,000 infants a day to only 25,000 infants a day, the world goes gaga over this enlightened new policy, and all the progress. (he beat me, but he got me flowers-- he's such a nice guy!).

If the United States treats actual terrorists less than lovingly, then they've created a human rights disaster on a scale with the Holocaust (he's always apologizing, I hate that).

To tie this around and wrap it up so it's a video game statement and not a political one, we see the same thing with Windows, EA and everything else. The guy on top is univerally despised for ANYTHING-- Windows brought computers to the masses, made the internet accessible, but any little mistake they make is on par with genocide. Meanwhile, if Apple, who has a horrifying record of shutting out competitors and in general keeping vicious tight control over innovation (Innovation Must Come From Apple!) does the least little progressive thing, on par with something Microsoft did ten years ago, then Apple is Christ, Mohammed, Moses and Buddha, all wrapped into one.

It's all fractal, and that's a fact. IT'S FRACTAL I TELL YOU!

Besides, and here's an important point: We're video game programmers and artists. If people want video games or art, we're the people to come to. Should we even have strong opinions on war and politics? Now really.

[Nonz]

Ah but they're the little guy and everyone loves the little guy.

Them and underdogs, except when said underdogs open websites, then all bets are off.

Nonz.

[Raptisoft]

Someone once said-- I think it was Heinlein-- that "everyone loves an underdog, as long as he stays an underdog."

[tolik]

"In 2009 George Bush, now 63, was being booked in the Intergalactic police station ironically for the crime of Heavy Weapon, when he allegedly grabbed US army, and then proceeded to shoot Russia and two other countries (presumably China and India) in their capitals, killing all three. He then escaped in a Moon pod, before later being apprehended on the way to Mars by Aliens ([1])."

[1] http://www.lynx.lv/aliens.jpg

[cliffski]

If China or North Korea decide to cut down their civilian slaughter from 50,000 infants a day to only 25,000 infants a day,

So the lancets figure is liberal propaganda, but these figures are somehow gospel? This seems an odd view to take to me.

[Raptisoft]

Those numbers are straight from the Multinational Association Of Round Numbers On Chinese and Korean Death Planning. I hope you're not doubting their word.

Besides, this is a game programming forum, you should focus more on my claim that Apple was funded by fascists and wants to use government force to clamp down on people who dare to compete successfully against them.

[Abscissa]

Meanwhile, if Apple, who has a horrifying record of shutting out competitors and in general keeping vicious tight control over innovation (Innovation Must Come From Apple!) does the least little progressive thing, on par with something Microsoft did ten years ago, then Apple is Christ, Mohammed, Moses and Buddha, all wrapped into one.

It's all fractal, and that's a fact. IT'S FRACTAL I TELL YOU!
I agree with you on that. Although I'm not quite sure what fractals have to do with it...?

and also 100,000 dead IRAQI CIVILIANS (many of them women and children)...That brings up one thing that's always bothered me. Where do people get off pretending that women and children have more of a right to live then men? And don't say that it's because "men are more capable of defending themselves", 'cause that's nothing but a load of shit: there are more than enough living counterexamples.

[princec]

Part of it's a deep rooted biological coincidence, part of it's the fact that usually children really shouldn't be dying for adult squabbles but that's just life in some countries.

Cas :)

[Raptisoft]

That brings up one thing that's always bothered me. Where do people get off pretending that women and children have more of a right to live then men? And don't say that it's because "men are more capable of defending themselves", 'cause that's nothing but a load of shit: there are more than enough living counterexamples.

Oh, that's super easy: Because men produce millions of sperm a day, but women only produce one viable egg a month.

It all goes down to value. Reproductive capabilities of women are more scarce, thuse more valuable. And children are the things you're holding the reproductive capabilities for.

(Way off topic now.)

[Midnight Synergy]

Everyone, please stop the war discussion - the war is probably one of the most divisive issues in recent times, we're not going to solve it in this little forum. It can only degenerate into all-out usenet-style flamewar.

I think the discussion on how a game of the Heavy Weapon's style/tone fits into Popcap's line is fitting for this forum. Whether or not Bush's war has (a) saved the world from the bad guys or (b) put the world into a much worse situation is not.

Let's get this back on topic, or else let's lock this thread.

[Midnight Synergy]

And to follow up getting us (maybe) back on topic.

Thanks, Jason, for the reply. If further down the line you can give us an idea of how Heavy Weapon played out, I'm sure you'd have the full attention of every forum member on here. ;)

And no, I'm not planning on making Heavy Weapon Mahjonng - "match two matching shotgun shells to clear them off the screen... or just nuke all the tiles to hell!".

[george]

I debated internally whether or not to respond to this. Part of me said, "Just let it go...they're going to believe what they want to believe no matter what the facts are."

Interesting, I was thinking the same thing before I decided to post my initial post...

That brings up one thing that's always bothered me. Where do people get off pretending that women and children have more of a right to live then men? And don't say that it's because "men are more capable of defending themselves", 'cause that's nothing but a load of shit: there are more than enough living counterexamples.

My point was that these victimes were not wielding machine guns and bombs. Unless you believe that 1 year old Iraqi babies carry guns on them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Conspiracy theories aside... Whether it's 100,000 dead or 10,000 dead (iraqbodycount.org reports over 18,000), it's a tragedy and not acceptable. I don't think it's right to kill many innocent people (lots of whom are KIDS) purportedly to get rid of one guy. Imagine if here in the USA (or other western countries), there was a horrible gang drug lord (who murderered lots of people and police officiers) that has just locked himself in an apartment building, would it be acceptable for the police to shoot-up or bomb that apartment building to get the guy (and injure or kill lots of the innocent occupants of that apartment), would that be OK? NO.

[Coyote]

Well, hey, this discussion prompted me to download the game - and then tell my friends, and THEY downloaded the game... a couple have already mentioned they are buying it. So it's all good :)

I'm gonna have to play it more (I am at work, so I only got to play it for a few minutes), but it's really nice. Very cool, very retro --- it feels a lot like an arcade game circa 1990, but a lot easier to play and get into. I hope it's a winner for PopCap!

[punchey]

I like to played a game where I can ram a skycraper with boeing 747.
but with more *Tongue in the cheeks* comedy. :D

Okay, there's a huge difference here. A satirical game about the cold war in 1984 where you're a lone soldier outnumbered by Communist oppressors is one thing. A "satirical" game about intentionally targetting and murdering thousands of innocent people is quite another. I don't see how you could possible compare the two. That is, unless you're somehow of the impression that the Communist forces during the Cold War were the "good guys". :eek:

A game where you're fighting for the good guys shouldn't be controversial in the least! Heck, games like that are made every day and have been played since the advent of games. You guys may have a point if the game cast the player in the role of a deranged psychopathic mass murderer on the order of Hitler or Stalin (or bin Laden for that matter), but this isn't even close to being the case.

[NuriumGames]

We're game programmers or whatever, but we do have opinions. This is not the best place to talk about the war, but at least we're in the 'General Chat' forum.

I'm totally amazed at the fact that there are people that defend this war, this is absolutely incredible for me.

The other day I saw in the newspaper that 27% americans would approve to nuke terrorists. Who on earth can justify a single nuke, this is absolutely crazy.

You can't launch a nuclear bomb to prevent bigger damage because the biggest damage possible is a single nuke, immediate consequences are terrible and future developments are totally unknown but sure extremely bad for all sides.

Anyway, I'm pretty convinced that the biggest losers of this war will be the american economy (in a whole although some people will make LOTS of money) and the iraqui civilians.

[baegsi]

You can't launch a nuclear bomb to prevent bigger damage because the biggest damage possible is a single nuke, immediate consequences are terrible and future developments are totally unknown but sure extremely bad for all sideshttp://www.newsgaming.com/games/index12.htm

[Raptisoft]

http://www.newsgaming.com/games/index12.htm

Heh, that's some of the finest emotional propaganda I've ever seen. Man, I'm getting to the point where I think programming machines is boring, I want to move onto the exciting world of programming people. ;)

[Coyote]

Egads, people.

Real war and violence sucks. It always has. It's only in the last 30 years or so that the media has been able to present the horror of it in full view of everyone in real-time. (Of course, it almost always turns a blind eye to parts it doesn't want to show, depending upon the editorial slant).

But it's been ripe fodder for stories, poems, movies, books, games, songs, plays, tapestries, ballads, comics, and almost every other kind of media imaginable since mankind first learned to grunt to each other and draw on cave walls.

I can't believe people are going off on the political correctness of an over-the-top cartoony fictional war.

[KNau]

And no, I'm not planning on making Heavy Weapon Mahjonng - "match two matching shotgun shells to clear them off the screen... or just nuke all the tiles to hell!".

Damn, now that sounds like a mahjonng game I would play!

It's funny, I've always been a pretty left-wing socialist guy but the more I hear "liberals" and Europeans shed their fake tears over every casualty the more right wing I'm becoming.

I'm begging you, Raptisoft, please share with us one of your animal rights nutjob e-mails. The fact that people are writing you over Hamsterball is both hilarious and depressing at the same time!

[Mark Fassett]

Too many war posts... Lockered