View Full Version : How to adjust the job of game portals? - developer's point of view
After all that latest treads around:
Subj. - That's pretty easy really. Just ask from them $5000 in advance payment for non exclusive agreement for distribution of your games and at least $25000 for exclusive one. And leave the rest for them.
REM: If they are not ready to pay even that $5000 what is the reason to spend your time and efforts on them? - Note that they are living by your efforts!
Opinions are welcome. :)
ggambett
02-18-2005, 02:22 PM
Not all games will make $5000 over their lifetime. If you could force portals to do as you wish, they would become much more selective with what they publish. What's the point? Is that what you want?
That's a lot of units for them to sell before they see even a hint of profit, and there's no guarantee that the game will sell enough.
To do it they would have to adopt a games company methodology to buying games which means "don't take risks, buy games you know will sell". So we go back to all new games looking the same.
That's my thought anyway.
Nonz.
Jack Norton
02-18-2005, 03:31 PM
Andy, that would be cool, but could only work if all indies together would do that :)
I think would be enough to ask higher percentage until you arrive at certain amount you consider your game worth (example, 50% percentage until you get 3000$,4000$ etc, then the usual 35% or lower).
A game would have to suck pretty hard not to pull in $5,000 within the first year or two, let alone it's entire lifetime.
The only thing a portal offers that you can't do for yourself is their captive audience of regular visitors and that listing your game is the equivalent of a "warm referal" to them. Not all visitors are created equal and browsers going to an indie developer's site are just that, browsers - "just looking". With membership programs visitors to major portals are practically pre-screened buyers looking for games to buy. Big difference.
I still stand by my statement in another thread that signing an exclusive deal without some sort of advance is just stupid. But I think asking for an advance for non-exclusive on-line rights is a bit naive.
In an exclusive deal with an advance both parties share the risk. With no advance all of the risk is on the developer.
For a non-exclusive deal with a cash advance, the risk is dumped on the publisher and that's just not going to happen. It is, as someone said in another post, a publishers market. Developers have little power, even with a great game.
To do it they would have to adopt a games company methodology to buying games which means "don't take risks, buy games you know will sell". So we go back to all new games looking the same.
Isn't that where we are already?
For a non-exclusive deal with a cash advance, the risk is dumped on the publisher and that's just not going to happen. It is, as someone said in another post, a publishers market. Developers have little power, even with a great game.
Well Kyle. OK. May be that's the question of amount of that advanced payment. But yes. That's exactly what I mean - shift at least some small part of our risks on portals - we are developing games, spend our money, efforts and part of our life to establish them, and what som portal makes (this is important!) for my specific game?
REM: I know what time and efforts they've spend on development of them selves - this is not underdiscussion.
And about "a publishers market" - Well. First of all that was said by person who states that he isn't in this business at all. And really I dunno Kyle - market is different, there are really amount of them. And we are doing it by independent way especially to have our own part of market not as publishers' but as developers'. This is obvious that publishers and their addicts should push that by this way on us - developers. But amount of peoples from here could disagree with that.
@Nonz and @Gabriel - check your messages. You start to speak from publishers' point of view. And I heard that points from them amount of times before. And now please check the question in topic. ;)
About more selective Gabriel - Yes, may be. But my main point either they will become more selective or not - I'd become much more relaxed that they will do for our game at least something to promote it if I'd get something in advance from them. No?
Just ask from them $5000 in advance payment for non exclusive agreement for distribution of your games and at least $25000 for exclusive one. And leave the rest for them.
I certainly don't intend to belittle someones opinion or to snap to hasty judgements - but as soon as I read this post I knew that idea is plain stupid.
The only person this idea benefits is people who make games that can't make the advance through the portal sales, which is the worst games that are good enough to be on the portal... why would you want a system that rewards having borderline crappy games?
And not being paid royalties for sale is terrible - if you "leave the rest for them" you're basically saying you don't want to be rewarded for making a great game - why on earth would you want the portal to be the only one to get rich off of a super selling game?
... of course it seems fellow posters are evolving the idea to be an advance on royalties or some similar idea (definitely an improvement), but in that case I agree with what Mr. Gambett & nonz are saying - that any up-front payment would just force portals to be more selective, replacing customer judgement with their own, which we'd mean they'd be filled with the similar boring crap and only reinforce existing markets instead of helping discover & grow new ones (or maybe that's your real goal :) )
...Also, for the one statement "Note they are living by your efforts" - that's true in certain respect, but your shouldn't miss out on the fact that it's equally true that they are living by their OWN efforts to collect a game library
that customers really want to browse, and presenting it to their customers in a way that they (again the customers) appreciate.
As a game shopper I'm glad that I can go to a place that gets new content, has a diverse library with either some kind of editorial content/ranking and/or game recommendations. I love supporting developers as directly as possible of course, but I certainly don't want to search out every individual developers site and try every game in order to find one worth buying. Even if the portal doesn't seem best for us as developers in some respects, they wouldn't exist if they weren't providing something special for the customer. It's naive if we don't realize and respect that.
...To me, the question is how do we provide the customer the same benefit as portals (to be specific, I mean the ability to find games that interest me when I'm looking) and to take that one step further (i.e. have a large library tailed to markets outside the existing classical "casual" customers). If you can do that to start, well then maybe you can do Ogrish things like requiring a $5K advance (although maybe we'll all end up realizing that it's in our best interest to help each other find all the customers we can)
---
BTW, Andy, in what respects were you thinking making portals pay a flat fee for distribution rights (whether exclusive or no) would be a better system? (I'm not sure what exactly you are thinking of with the "latest threads around", so figure I may be missing part of what you are trying to get at with the idea...)
... but as soon as I read this post I knew that idea is plain stupid.
Yes, thank Og! :)
Saying seriously though I just need to mention that I was talking about advance payment in my stupid idea - not about the flat fee. The difference that you still get your royalties after publisher returns your advance payment through your part of percents.
About another threads devoted to connection between developers and portals - oh, there are amount of them here. This has no sense to repeat all of them here. But I'm meaning mostly new marketing idea "game per day" from BigFish and of course all that exclusive contracts going for free. I can't get at all - how can exclusive rights go for free?
Itsme
02-19-2005, 01:23 AM
It's just baby talk. If you make a game that is good (and by good I mean the sales stats, not graphics), the portals and publishers will chase you, throw money in youf face and (perhaps) fly hookers to snowy St. Petersburg first class. OK, the last one isn't going to happen, but there is a GLUT of games and SHORTAGE of distribution channels. You go to Big Fish or Real Arcade and suggest that you are entitled to five grand and they'll laugh at you. Because they have a line of developers who almost beg for their games to be distributed by portals. Why do you think they take 65% cut? Because they can. Portals understand that it's not games that makes money, it's visitors and customer base. This is why Steve Pavlina does not have to work more than two hours a day, even though games listed at Dexterity suck (in terms of graphics). And Alawar? Never developed a single game that would quality-wise approach, say, Retro64. But they don't have to. They've got customer base.
Ricardo C
02-19-2005, 01:47 AM
OK, the last one isn't going to happen
And people ask why I'm not crazy about portals... Hmph! :D
Jack Norton
02-19-2005, 01:49 AM
A game would have to suck pretty hard not to pull in $5,000 within the first year or two, let alone it's entire lifetime.
I know many games that made that amount in 2 months, from people on this forums... (not me unfortunately! :D)
They've got customer base.
Good then the secret is to build customer base :)
It's just baby talk. If you make a game that is good (and by good I mean the sales stats, not graphics), the portals and publishers will chase you, throw money in youf face and (perhaps) fly hookers to snowy St. Petersburg first class. OK, the last one isn't going to happen, but there is a GLUT of games and SHORTAGE of distribution channels. You go to Big Fish or Real Arcade and suggest that you are entitled to five grand and they'll laugh at you. Because they have a line of developers who almost beg for their games to be distributed by portals. Why do you think they take 65% cut? Because they can. Portals understand that it's not games that makes money, it's visitors and customer base. This is why Steve Pavlina does not have to work more than two hours a day, even though games listed at Dexterity suck (in terms of graphics). And Alawar? Never developed a single game that would quality-wise approach, say, Retro64. But they don't have to. They've got customer base.
Almost everything you said here is correct Itsme - pretty rare for you but the fact. ;)
I didn't realize only one single thing - why "baby talk"?
Please note that I wasn't meaning any specific game, or any specific developer - it would be strange would portal guys visit St.Petersburg to visit Svero or Retro64 for example. So, let we focus rather on idea itself than on personalities.
So, again. I suppose that portals should pay some part upfront to developers of GOOD games - games they suppose would work OK at their portals - and they don't really sell any another. I suppose that this is not so fair to use amount of titles only as a craud for the good titles on most of portals.
PS. Again, please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that our own games are so great for all portals that all of them will come to pay to us specifically. They are OK for us but this is another story and another discussion. OK?
Itsme
02-19-2005, 03:22 AM
Andy. Why do you want five grand for? To invest it in game development probably, correct? Well, heck, if you need money for game development, you can easily get it from Alawar or even from folks here IF you have a proven track record. Otherwise, I don't see any point in this discussion. You need money if you can invest it wisely in game development process. Most game developers can't. Look at Alawar. They've got a huge office and tons of money to hire the best talent in russia. Yet they don't have a single game that would prove to be a big hit. This is why I call this baby talk. I hear it a lot. "If only taxes were lower", "if only I could get a bank loan", "if only the damn government would be more busines friendly", bla-bla-bla. Portals and their rules have absolutely no influence on the way you do your business. I am not talking game quality here. Once again - Pavlina's games suck, they just do. Old outdated graphics, etc. But, he is smart enough to understand that the money is not in game development. Read his entries, he mentions this a number of times. Complaining won't do a jack, you actually have to DO things. "Everthinging worth doing is worth going poorly" (Gary C. Halbert). Can't blame portals for your own shortfalls. Say you find five grand tonight or rob a bank. Is this going to change your life? No it won't. But, if you work for a successful enterpreneur and get some experience in SELLING and PURSUASION, and then you'll be robbed of everything, you'll come back and become a very rich person. If something happens to folks at Reflexive, say there will be a lawsuit taht will rob them of everything, they'll go broke, but they'll come back, because they actually KNOW things.
If you had 100 houses and you had to sell them to get the highest price, would you know how to paint them? You could guess all you want, but I know exactly what shade of yellow it should be, because realtors in the US have statistics for that. If you had to sell a car, do you know what color it has to be. Strangely enough it's silver, at least for the sun belt states. If you want to make your living online, you better start discussing things and start learning, so you KNOW. What's the point in bitching and complaining? This is a highly cometitive market, you either make it or not. You can't talk your way into success.
Andy. What's the point in bitching and complaining?
Meaning?.. Where have I did so?
Your posts are a little bit too long for me and I always loose the clue in the middle. And that your always mentioning of Alawar everywhere frustrates a little bit. But anyway.
I'm discussing the fact that portals and developers should share their risks and efforts on every specific title they get to work together. I suppose that could dramatically change the sitution back to correct meaning of the word "collaboration".
REM: And no. We don't need any money from somebody, we don't need any help with marketing (we've already got all consultants we need really) or something else - if you were trying to explain this at the rest of your message.
Ricardo C
02-19-2005, 03:37 AM
Why do you want five grand for? To invest it in game development probably, correct?
Not to speak fo Andy, but why assume that he wants the money to fund a project?
Taking money from a publisher in order to fund development is the exact business arrangement we're supposedly trying to get away from. At least, I know I am.
Demanding a royalty advance on a self-funded, finished product the publisher/portal has no stake in is quite different from taking an advance early in the development process and thus partially surrendering creative control.
I am not talking game quality here. Once again - Pavlina's games suck, they just do.
Actually, they don't. The graphics do, but the games are quite enjoyable to play, which is how he's built the steady and dependable customer base you keep going on about.
For all your business insights, your view of the games themselves (Steve's, Andy's or anyone's) seems quite myopic.
Ricardo,
I should hire you as my speach writer some day ;)
(If things will continue to go as they are going right now :D )
Thanks for understanding really.
Diodor Bitan
02-19-2005, 03:54 AM
Original post by Itsme
Once again - Pavlina's games suck, they just do. Old outdated graphics, etc.
Actually, Dweep rocks. The cartoonish graphics are timeless, friendly and feel-goodish, they don't grow "outdated". What is "outdated" anyway? Besides the graphics are meaningless when you consider a good game - it's all about the gameplay and Dweep's gameplay rocks. Not to mention Dweep isn't a clone, nor a time waster - it's a thinking game.
Steve likes to blame his success on his marketing/business skills, but if that were entirely right, how come some of the Dexterity games sell 50 times less than the best sellers given the same marketing?
Itsme
02-19-2005, 03:56 AM
And that your always mentioning of Alawar everywhere frustrates a little bit.
I did quite a bit of marketing advice for Alawar, you can ask Alexander about me. Do you know what he would usually say? He'd say, "Yes, Dmitry, this is an interesting idea, keep 'em coming" Well, I don't really remember any "BIG" idea of mine they implemented. There were always reasons not to "we are family oriented", etc.
Did I bitch and complain about Alawar? No. I started my own software distribution company and I beat GameXtrazy ranking in RegNow in 6 weeks. GameXtazy is 60-somthing in the rank, so it's not easy, you know. I am now it Top 50 not too far away from Alawar. They did not what to implement my ideas, well, then I had to do that, otherwise it would be just talking.
Here is another example - people bitch and moan about AdWords not working. The conversion is low, the CTR is low, bla-bla-bla. Well, you can actually team up with 5-6 developers and create a separate website, where you feature all products. Each of you pitches in 50 bucks and you get 2500 visitors to that site. I won't go into specifics, because there are a lot of tricky things - for instance, the traffic is not equally distributed, but it's a braindead-simple concept that works like you would not believe.
Here is another thing I've done - I host free software and pay for all traffic. Instead I get an icon that leads to my site installed on desktop when people download and install freeware (well, I actually pay my best freeware partners 20 bucks a month, and I get about 3000 visitors - you do the math).
I tested probably 20 different ideas and 15 of them did not work - totally bombed. But, because I actuall did things rather than talked about them, I know what works and what does not and I surely like the fact that I get four grands deposited to my bank account each month.
You can say "well my games are not so good but this is a topic for another conversation". Well, please, send me a link to any Dexterity game that you believe is better than yours. Maybe the key is not in game quality (although it is important), maybe it's about doing things, rather than talking about them.
See, itsme (I didn't get really how could I address you itsyou or... :) ) - now you've shifted the discussion back to the quality of Steve's games. This is not fair! I was expecting to get another discussion here. :)
You can say "well my games are not so good but this is a topic for another conversation".
Our games are pretty good and we sell them a lot and have a pretty nice growing for the current situation on this market and our independent status. I just don't want to loose the focus of this thread OK?
REM: I just won the pari with some guys from here that that was you Deprice. ;)
Itsme
02-19-2005, 04:12 AM
Well that's the point. You started a thead about "would it not be nice if portals gave us five grand?". Will this discussion result in anything tangible? No, becuase you Andy aren't going to do anything rather that discuss this topic. Are you going to contact portals? No. Are you going to start a petition here? Not likely? What's outcome of this discussion? Nothing. This is the problem.
P.S. Deprice is a competitor of mine, and I bet I make at least twice as much money as folks at Deprice. It's not hard to be a blockbuster affilite. Why do you think Astatix has a beter rank than Alawar? Think about that.
Ricardo C
02-19-2005, 04:20 AM
Well that's the point. You started a thead about "would it not be nice if portals gave us five grand?". Will this discussion result in anything tangible? No, becuase you Andy aren't going to do anything rather that discuss this topic. Are you going to contact portals? No. Are you going to start a petition here? Not likely? What's outcome of this discussion? Nothing. This is the problem.
Actually, the discussion was more along the lines of "how can we exploit the current market structure without completely submiting to it?" Your predictions about its logical conclusion are just assumptions.
P.S. Deprice is a competitor of mine, and I bet I make at least twice as much money as folks at Deprice. It's not hard to be a blockbuster affilite. Why do you think Astatix has a beter rank than Alawar? Think about that.
What is your site, if I may ask?
REM: Hell! I lost the pari... :( So, there are even a couple of such as you there? ;)
Nope itsme. I need exactly to consider the case when we'd return our attention back to portals and that's exactly why I have started this topic. I suppose also that this discussion could be also useful for another developers here as well.
So, let we not go anywhere else and let you not interprete my question as you like. OK?
Itsme
02-19-2005, 04:30 AM
What is your site, if I may ask?[/QUOTE]
Sure you may. But I don't solicit business and 80% of my income is not related to games in any shape or form. The only reason I registered here was to inform about www.megagames55.com was pirating games, and some games there belong to clients of mine. I can identify myself, my name is Dmitry Davydov, and some folks here know me. I don't have a problem with that. It's just absurdity of some comments that kept bringing me back to the site. Can you imaging folks at RealArcade come to the site and discuss how nice it would be to generate more sales, and get cheaper advertisement, rather than acually do that? That would be stupid, would it not? Steve said (got it's the third time I am quoting him) that he started making money once he stopped listening to people who talked about making money and started talking to peopel in ASP who actually made money. This is exactly the same story how I started making money - I actually blindly copied success strategies of other folks. Cheers!
Hell whole my thread is bombed away at all. Dmitry are you always explode everything you take part in? :D
Anyway. Look. Sometimes this is very useful to pay attention at least to mistakes one made and discribed here. To not repeat them by your own. Don't you suppose so?
If you don't like the place this is not a problem. I suppose it very useful for me from time to time.
Saying about your opinion about Alawar and your rating at RegNow... well, but you should pay attention that ones are reading another forums as well. So you should understand clear what I was meaning really and why I was mentioning that Deprice. But this is really promises to transform into too long discussion. So, let we drop at least this part. OK?
Ricardo C
02-19-2005, 04:47 AM
Sure you may. But I don't solicit business and 80% of my income is not related to games in any shape or form. The only reason I registered here was to inform about www.megagames55.com was pirating games, and some games there belong to clients of mine. I can identify myself, my name is Dmitry Davydov, and some folks here know me. I don't have a problem with that.
What does it matter that your income is largely unrelated to games? I was merely hoping to verify the identity of the person behind so many needlessly insulting rants, and to see if his business really is as succesful as he claims.
It's just absurdity of some comments that kept bringing me back to the site. Can you imaging folks at RealArcade come to the site and discuss how nice it would be to generate more sales, and get cheaper advertisement, rather than acually do that? That would be stupid, would it not?
Brainstorming ideas is stupid, now? :confused: (And yes, starting a discussion on an idea such as "portals and publishers should pay developers an upfront fee for the right to carrying a given product" counts as a brainstorming session of sorts.)
Steve said (got it's the third time I am quoting him) that he started making money once he stopped listening to people who talked about making money and started talking to peopel in ASP who actually made money. This is exactly the same story how I started making money - I actually blindly copied success strategies of other folks. Cheers!
Steve is the master of the soundbite, and while his writings have been very helpful to myself and others, they only give you half the story. As is the case with most motivational speakers, his portrayal of any given situation is a sleeker, more streamlined version of reality.
As for "talking to people who make money", I'd rather talk to people who make money, to those who don't make money, and above all, to people who made no money and then found a winning formula. Studying only the success stories leaves you with the same narrow views as focusing exclusively on conmiserating with every struggling developer out there.
Itsme
02-19-2005, 04:51 AM
Actually, the discussion was more along the lines of "how can we exploit the current market structure without completely submiting to it?" Your predictions about its logical conclusion are just assumptions.
Assumptions turned true, Ricardo. Nothing has come out of this discussion, other than steam. If you DO nothing, you GET nothing. A while a go I LOVED discussing marketing, but now I understand that there is nothing more STUPID than discussing marketing technique. Just do the damn thing and you'll find out.
Remember an old discussion about 22 (or whatever) ways to promote your website that stated that a website should have at least 100 pages indexed by search engines? Some said it would work, others say it would not. We'll you can't find out truth by talking about it. You can actually add more pages to your website and then look at the results.
I might have been a bit harsh, but once again - this is a stupid discussion (I should rather say pointless, not stupid), because nothing is going to come out of it.
Here is an idea for your Ricardo. There is actually something you can do about the portal thing. Nothing big - but a REAL solution.
You can organize 20 game developers and create a single website for all games. You have to be selective and invite only folks who have decent games. Each person would contibute 2 games and, say 50 bucks - 100 bucks a month for marketing ($1000-2000).
You would get traffic to the site right away. Then, all members would have to provide a link to that "indie portal" site. So it's be indexed fast and get decent rank. This means you would get some SE traffic. Third, all members would have to include an icon to that "indie portal". So each time a game is downloaded, there is a reminder that there are more games available. Plus, some members would donate freeware to promote this "indie portals". I could give you more strategies that would really work, like submititng a press release "Indies donate 100 million game copies to fight the big boys", because I've done everything I mentioned myself, including writing and distributing press-releases.
BUT
This is NEVER going to happen. You might have people here discuss the idea of "indie portal" - how brilliant or incredibly stupid it is. But you can't get the indie portal going without ACTUALLY DOING things and WORKING HARD.
Once again - people here can really build an indie portal with as little as 50 bucks a month. If you do the math, you'll see that you can easily get 1000 unique visitors a day from the beginning (especially if you use FindWhat rather than Overture and Google, by the way, NEVER do Kanoodle, I got burned so bad - traffic from Kanoodle is almost 100% fraud).
And quite frankly, this is the point. Talking is easy, doing is hard.
Itsme
02-19-2005, 04:58 AM
Studying only the success stories leaves you with the same narrow views as focusing exclusively on conmiserating with every struggling developer out there.
A long, long time ago I co-owned Deaddybear (www.deaddybear.com). It totally bombed. And I was smart enough to exit that business quickly. I never repeated mistakes of the past. Two of us left Deaddybear and two sticked to it.
Who do you think did better? Me and another person who quit game development. He is actually my business partner now in some of my web enterprises. You can't study failures and keep doing what fails you. It's just stupid.
By the way, Deaddybear is realeasing a game today or tomorrow and another one is comming soon. Don't know what's going to happen to them, but let me tell you - I never looked back and very happy I did not stayed there - even though people there are my friends and making games is exciting.
"To beat the big boys" - every developer should state at first to himself that his games are not so bad as portals are saying to him - you know that "your games are not appealing to our audience, you should work harder to implement the changes we were suggesting to you - such is make game more fun etc.".
I'd say good err... 85% of games are much better than they are doing on some portals. There are amount of examples really.
And that idea about indie portal. There is nothing to discuss really. And nothing new - you've mentioned it. Oll Korrect. But that's correct also that "doing is hard" - in time and efforts measures. And what is most important in building of the approriate agreement between the developers. But it would appear some day. After we will figure out at first that our job should be paid upfront before giving it away to portals for their needs.
Ricardo C
02-19-2005, 05:08 AM
Dmitri, are you a speechwriter, a copywriter, or anything remotely related to either career? Because I've yet to see a post from you that doesn't consist of 60% empty catchphrases and 40% actual, honest discussion.
Here is an idea for your Ricardo. There is actually something you can do about the portal thing. Nothing big - but a REAL solution.
You can organize 20 game developers and create a single website for all games. You have to be selective and invite only folks who have decent games. Each person would contibute 2 games and, say 50 bucks - 100 bucks a month for marketing ($1000-2000).
You would get traffic to the site right away. Then, all members would have to provide a link to that "indie portal" site. So it's be indexed fast and get decent rank. This means you would get some SE traffic. Third, all members would have to include an icon to that "indie portal". So each time a game is downloaded, there is a reminder that there are more games available. Plus, some members would donate freeware to promote this "indie portals". I could give you more strategies that would really work, like submititng a press release "Indies donate 100 million game copies to fight the big boys", because I've done everything I mentioned myself, including writing and distributing press-releases.
I proposed a similar idea here a month or so ago, complete with press release ideas similar to yours. I further discussed it with a few like-minded people, after the actual forum discussion died down, and now we're preparing to attempt something along those lines in the near future. Why do you assume that engaging in discussion here means that no one is actually doing anything?
If an indie-operated and funded portal does take off, then excellent. It will be a blow against that type of distribution channel I loathe so much (with a couple of exceptions). But in the meantime, I'm very interested in people's thoughts on ways to tilt the scales in our favor when dealing with these glorified middlemen, even if it's just a little.
Itsme
02-19-2005, 05:13 AM
"To beat the big boys" - every developer should state at first to himself that his games are not so bad as portals are saying to him - you know that "your games are not appealing to our audience, you should work harder to implement the changes we were suggesting to you - such is make game more fun etc.".
I'd say good err... 85% of games are much better than they are doing on some portals. There are amount of examples really.
And that idea about indie portal. There is nothing to discuss really. And nothing new - you've mentioned it. Oll Korrect. But that's correct also that "doing is hard" - in time and efforts measures. And what is most important in building of the approriate agreement between the developers. But it would appear some day. After we will figure out at first that our job should be paid upfront to use it for there needs.
Exactly, Andy. "The idea is not new" (it's not), "it won't work" (never know until you tried", "it's hard to reach an agreement", bla-bla-bla.
The only portals that work are there on the web and making buku bucks, because people just did things. They did not say "Oh, reaching agreement will be difficult" or "Getting developers to sign up will be difficutl" or "how in the world are we going to attract visitors". These are valid concerns, but folks who actually do things, resolve them. And you can't say - Oh, it's that big money that they all have. B.S.
It's MUCH easier to discuss things. But it won't do anything for your bank account. I've done a number of JVs. This is know e-book industry works, almost exclusively joint ventures. And any indie here can do JVs with one another - newsletters, special offers, discounts. I've built a nice little business sending post cards to real addresses of folks who buy DVD releated software. How many indies here sent any mail to their buyers? How may called? It's tough, because you have to do it - takes up a lot of time and work. hey, but this is what brings in money.
@Nonz and @Gabriel - check your messages. You start to speak from publishers' point of view. And I heard that points from them amount of times before. And now please check the question in topic. ;)
I've gone back and reread your original post and I think I have it right now... I hope.
You would have to be able to prove your game's worth to the publisher, after all if it never makes enough in sales to pay for the "advance" (because I think this is what you're talking about here) then the publisher is going to be out of pocket, unless there's a chance for them to recoup any losses from the developer.
Okay, how about this for an idea. Portals bidding for exclusive rights to a game, movie companies often bid for film rights to popular books.
You would need a good game to do this but I think it could work... if the publishers played ball of course.
Nonz.
Ricardo C
02-19-2005, 05:25 AM
if the publishers played ball of course.
They can be made to.
Itsme
02-19-2005, 05:27 AM
Dmitri, are you a speechwriter, a copywriter, or anything remotely related to either career? Because I've yet to see a post from you that doesn't consist of 60% empty catchphrases and 40% actual, honest discussion.
I am in a way. I just found out that as soon as I became kind of good, it made more sense to work for myself. I still suck at a lot fo things, but hey, the ones that work - work. By the way, I don't let Google index some of my sites - for exactly the same reason, why department stores don't allow videotaping - price-based competition
I proposed a similar idea here a month or so ago, complete with press release ideas similar to yours. I further discussed it with a few like-minded people, after the actual forum discussion died down, and now we're preparing to attempt something along those lines in the near future. Why do you assume that engaging in discussion here means that no one is actually doing anything?
Here is your problem, Ricardo - you discussed things and you attemp to ....
I probably make about one grand selling games, often a bit less (in the 800 - 900 range). This is because I did not discuss things. I just did them.
You could buy a domain and do some basic web design and have the indie portal prototype up and running in a week. Probably would have five or six developers pitch in right away.
BUT
Mark my word:
You won't have an indie portal up and running for the next six months, may be never. Because YOU WILL BE DISCUSSING IT (not you personally).
It's an excuse that discussing is done for a good reason. It's a fallacy. Buy the domain, but up some content, so it'll get indexed, get 5-6 likemided people team up with you - and THEN discuss all you want.
While working at DadeBehring Microscan we spent hours and days discussing our project (by the way, it was a 100 million dollar investment) called Ramses (it's microbiology related, not software). We had brain storm specialists come in. Reteats, etc. Hey, but the time Ramses was finished (I left the company one year prior to that), we had two projects with similar products. Ours was MUCH better, but the market was already divided by then and it's the industry standard type of thing.
They can be made to.
You would need the co-operation of a lot of fellow indie developers, and if you had that then you might as well start a co-op and forget the portals all together.
Nonz.
And you can't say - Oh, it's that big money that they all have. B.S.
I have NEVER stated such things Dmitry. NEVER. You can check.
Backward when I here that I always get frustrated because to know how to spend big money this is even bigger problem. Amount of peoples are measuring that to their incomes - such as give me a million and I will sell my games on $10000. Me - never. I know big business very well. Too well I'd say. ;)
Itsme
02-19-2005, 05:31 AM
Okay, how about this for an idea. Portals bidding for exclusive rights to a game, movie companies often bid for film rights to popular books.
In your dreams, perhaps. In most cases there is NOTHING to bid for. In 99% of cases, I mean. Add up all games offered by portals and you get something like 500 titles. Only 5 are best sellers like Zuma or Richochen. May be 10, but still, it's 1-2%. Actually, soon developers will have to bid to get listed with portals.
You would need a good game to do this but I think it could work...
Really?! Wow! And who have ever stated that you can get success with bad games?
All correct now really. You got an idea Nonz. And yes - not all games will beat that prepaid lists. But they wouldn't get anything by anyway - I suppose huge amount of guys have felt that by their own. No?
Ricardo C
02-19-2005, 05:35 AM
Here is your problem, Ricardo - you discussed things and you attemp to ....
Here is your problem, Dmitri - Too many one-liners, not enough content.
Why am I "discussing" things with people? Because I don't have unlimited funds. Because I'm careful regarding who I associate with. Because I like to think before I leap. Because I believe I have a good idea, but like the chess player that I am* I like to think a few moves ahead and evaluate what the playing field could be like if influenced by this or that factor, including my own presence.
You talk a good game, but I find your approach to be far too dogmatic, even if you don't see it.
* When you read the chess player analogy, did a rebuttal along the lines of "that is your problem, Ricardo - this business is not for chess players, but for card sharks" come to mind? ;)
PS-- The domain IS bought. I am going ahead with this, as the sole risk-taker if I must. But... I like to plan. It's my kink ;)
Actually, soon developers will have to bid to get listed with portals.
Common! Wrong conclusion. Everything says about the backward one. Sure good portals could bring a lot of income - but that's for good games only. And you have stated that 100 times before.
Itsme
02-19-2005, 05:40 AM
Here is your problem, Dmitri - Too many one-liners, not enough content.
Why am I "discussing" things with people? Because I don't have unlimited funds. Because I'm careful regarding who I associate with. Because I like to think before I leap. Because I believe I have a good idea, but like the chess player that I am* I like to think a few moves ahead and evaluate what the playing field could be like if influenced by this or that factor, including my own presence.
You talk a good game, but I find your approach to be far too dogmatic, even if you don't see it.
* When you read the chess player analogy, did a rebuttal along the lines of "that is your problem, Ricardo - this business is not for chess players, but for card sharks" come to mind? ;)
PS-- The domain IS bought. I am going ahead with this, as the sole risk-taker if I must. But... I like to plan. It's my kink ;)
Darn, I was going to ask you for your RegNow ID in order to tranfer you 20 bucks, so you can by a domain. A little theater, you know.
Oh well, I'll have to assuage my ego some other way
Ricardo C
02-19-2005, 05:42 AM
You would need the co-operation of a lot of fellow indie developers, and if you had that then you might as well start a co-op and forget the portals all together.
Now you're speaking my language.
The idea I proposed in the old thread was exactly that: A dev-run co-op. Why not? Each dev provides his own bandwidth, we all help pay for marketing costs, and market the shite out of the brand. The discussion lost steam when disagreements started as to the focus of the site (I favor an all-inclusive portal, others seemed to favor a specialized one), and nothing came of it on the forum. But a couple people contacted me privately, and I've contacted a few more elsewhere, and we will go ahead with it. No one has anything to lose except a few bucks a month in marketing costs, and plenty of increased traffic to gain, in addition to the potential negotiating leverage should the portal prove a success.
Really?! Wow! And who have ever stated that you can get success with bad games?
Okay, maybe I should say better than average game, or great game. Basically I mean a game that stands out and is worth bidding for.
Oh, and I think you can still get away with making a bad product and be successful with it, marketing can be an extremely powerful tool.
Nonz.
Darn, I was going to ask you for your RegNow ID in order to tranfer you 20 bucks, so you can by a domain. A little theater, you know.
Oh well, I'll have to assuage my ego some other way
Well. I see now. Pay attention Dmitry - Alawar didn't accept any of your ideas. You have dropped amount of companies in the middle of the way. That draws not so great picture really. And now that 20 bucks. Let we not lower down on that "clown" mentioning again at least. Let we continue to discuss things - not each other.
This is not very big problem if you don't like to discuss the marketing but always trying to do this. But could you please to not drop down to discussion of persons. That has no any sense at all here.
Itsme
02-19-2005, 05:53 AM
Well. I see now. Pay attention Dmitry - Alawar didn't accept any of your ideas. You have dropped amount of companies in the middle of the way. That draws not so great picture really. And now that 20 bucks. Let we not lower down on that "clown" mentioning again at least. Let we continue to discuss things - not each other.
This is not very big problem if you don't like to discuss the marketing but always trying to do this. But could you please to not drop down to discussion of persons. That has no any sense at all here.
You can ask Alexander about me - I've done a number of promotions for them. They used (and paid me for) practically every sinlge small thing I suggested.
But, they were afraid of big changes. this is true. I do like Alawar (in a perverted strange way), but the fact that that I matched GameXtazy sales in 6 weeks does say a lot about their marketing (non-existing)
luggage
02-19-2005, 06:34 AM
itsme: is there any chance of you telling us where these success you have are? It's difficult to just take things at face value on forums.
ggambett
02-19-2005, 07:57 AM
@Nonz and @Gabriel - check your messages. You start to speak from publishers' point of view. And I heard that points from them amount of times before.
Andy, you can't toss an idea without considering it completely. Of course, it would be great if portals just gave away $5000 in advance to every game that it's submitted to them. It would also be great if some arab prince decided to give me 1 billion dollars. My question was - is it only wishful thinking of your part, or do you think they have any reason to actually do it? I was just following your proposition to its consequences.
About a big advance payment for an exclusive distribution deal... yes, that's for sure, it compensates the business you may or may not have gotten otherwise. Since in a way you "tie your hands" (ie you trust the publisher to do good business), you get something in return.
Gabriel,
What is the difference between exclusive and non-exclusive when you bring them part of your work any way? That's exactly really why I've multiplied that $5000 by 4-6 good portals around and got $25000 for exclusive one.
Again. The question really is are they going to spend efforts to sell your specific games. And if so, what is their bet that they will try to do that by way to achieve the approriate results for you and for them. If they state that this is too risky - can I understand this as they are not going to spend any efforts on my specific product?
Has this any logic or what?
REM: Am I dreaming - sure I am - but that's what discussions are used for.
Itsme
02-19-2005, 08:57 AM
itsme: is there any chance of you telling us where these success you have are? It's difficult to just take things at face value on forums.
You don't have to. Have Andy contact a person by the name of Alexey Pavlenko. He is the owner of http://www.maniactools.com/. I've got his e-mail
pavlenko [at] MyPressRelease.net
MyPressRelease.net is a press-release distribution service that I do odd jobs for now and then.
This this guy is Russian (well, he is Ukranian), have Andy talk to him and ask four questions.
1. Does he know a person by the name of Dmitry Davydov
2. Did this person write three sentences for him to put at the end of each order e-mail a customer receives.
3. Is it true that he [Alexey] got extra several hundreds dollars as a result of addition of these three sentenses.
4. What these three sensences were.
After that I urge Andy to actually do the same - add these sentences at the end of each order e-mail (well, you have to adopt them for a particular offer). And then have Andy report to this forum how much his sales increased.
I give you a 100% guarantee that any person who realizes that you can make extra few hundred by simply carefully crafting a special offer (which is really an upselling technique), they'll stop selling low margin products and switch to something else (in my case it's DVD software and network utilities).
This is honest to goodness truth, and this is why I don't do any outside marketing jobs - I am too damn greedy.
If you think that this is all hog-wash, do the following. Look at your description (especially PAD) and see if it says "trial version available" or something like that.
Change that to "for a limited time, you get to play GameName absolutely free. We will also give you 10 free levels (or whatever number trial levels you have available) for just trying the game, if you download it today. Please, download GameName for details".
Do A/B spilt testing, and report it back to this very forum. you will be very surprised.
Dmitry. luggage can't have me as i can't have him. We both are independent business identities who makes the efforts to make their business as prospering as possible.
I'm not going to waste my business to promote your person as well as I'm not going to waste this thread on this.
I'll hire you when it would be necessary for us (when you will be able to approve that).
Right now if you are not ready to identify yourself this is your problem not my - just to give you the feeling how the real things go. And now please come back on track of the thread or don't waste it for your needs. We already heard that: "I'm not working on Alawar but I'm writting for them and they are paying to me." So please... OK?
Itsme
02-19-2005, 11:34 AM
I'll hire you when it would be necessary for us (when you will be able to approve that).
I am not for hire. I said I am not soliciting business. But you could contact Alexey, just out of curiosity and ask him about how much he earned extra by adding these sentences. I did it absolutely free for him too. There is a lot of free information out there. You mentioned Deprice - who are my competitors, actually. They've done a number of mistakes - for examle they are easily identifiable.
Consider this, Andy. Deprice, even though they are complete amateurs, got in top 50 (RegNow) in 4 months. I estimate they make about 20 sales a day, maybe 25. There are actually discounters who do much better than they, but these are professionals. if you look at RegNow list, you won't see any other discounters, because we all use other websites as decoys.
Moneywise, it really does pay know KNOW and DO things. I was not adversiting my services - hence no e-mail or web address. Game marketing is almost an oxymoron. Once you get good at marketing games, you stop doing that, because there is much more money in corporate software.
Check out this website
http://superaffiliatehandbook.com/
DO NOT BUY THE BOOK, it's not worth it. (Actually the info is good, but the price is too much).
But it's absolutely true that there are people out there who make really good money selling other people's stuff online. And there are 100 times people, who just talk about this and that.
What it all boils down to is that the market has changed. But portals are only one tiny corner of the market, not the "gatekeepers" that we tend to make them out to be.
The change in the market basically means this: If you are making derivitive puzzle games then you have to eat what the portals feed you or you probably won't make much money.
If on the other hand you fall outside the very limited genres of games that portals represent (puzzles, pong and shooters) then those sites can't do anything for you anyways. Why waste your time in that case?
I don't know Spiderweb Software's (Blades of Avernum) numbers but I'm willing to bet that they haven't sold shit through their Real Arcade listing. It's just not suitable for that audience - and yet somehow he continues to survive as a developer.
Itsme
02-19-2005, 11:57 AM
What it all boils down to is that the market has changed.
And it will keep changing again and again. One of my former clients (BVS Solitaire, if I am not mistaking) sold this card games to companies. He branded them and they (his clients) handed them out at trade shows. There was a big article about games being used as advertising vehicles. There are game studios who specialize on making flash games that are used essentially as ads.
Hey, but it's easier to complain than try finding new markets. I made up my mind and saw that there is much more money in other types of software and never regreted this decision (not investing much time and effort in games).
luggage
02-19-2005, 12:04 PM
Itsme: You say Deprice are your competitors, can we take it then that you also run websites that undercut the developers sale price by reducing your affiliate percentage? This was discussed in a thread here (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=1906&page=1&pp=30)
Exactly luggage, exactly.
And we all know that deprice means "fool the developer and get money for yourself" - Dmitry knows what I'm talking about.
Itsme
02-19-2005, 12:40 PM
Itsme: You say Deprice are your competitors, can we take it then that you also run websites that undercut the developers sale price by reducing your affiliate percentage? This was discussed in a thread here (http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=1906&page=1&pp=30)
Well, yes and no. I make money selling e-books, software and cameras on eBay.
About three years ago I got involved in direct marketing, and I was just blown away by how effective it is.
There are some very basic rules about this and, if you are interested at all, I could give you a few links where you can learn that stuff absolutely free.
Regarding discounts - you can offer a discount and still won't see any uptick in your sales. And here is why:
Delay is the death of sale
There are some techniques that you can test and see that they work.
In some instances, like software, the only way to use scarcity technique is by offering a discount, but you have to justify it.
20% off Bla-bla-bla is OK
this is what's better
"Hey there, dear fellow ...
I've got a great news for you. I am getting married on .... (date)
You probably know that weddings are bloody expensive these days. I have to come up with a $... deposit for ... by ...
Since www.....com is my only source of income, I have nobody to foot my [caterer] bill, but you. This is why I am having this jumbo sale, so I can get the necessary .... dollars by ... [date]
[offer deal]
I know that ... days is not really a lot of time to think about it, so this is going to be a no risk offer you just can't refuse - 90-day double your money back guarantee.
This is what this means:
[you can actually read Gary Halbert's or Jay Abraham's material to find out why longer moneyback period lowers your refund rate and how to properly structure a double your money back guarantee.]
Heck, I need the money so bad, I will also throw in a free 50-level bonus pack to the first 50 people who buy ...
And remember, your money is never at risk, I will promptly refund your purchase, if you don't like ... for any reason. All you have to do is to order ... by ... I say do it know if you want to get the free level pack
------------------------------------------------
This is really how you do it, altough I don't think I tested it for games - not enough money.
About undercutting - I arrange deals with DVD authoring software makers and there aren't much of those on RegNow. Most of them use eSellerate, SWREG, RegSoft, Emetrix and Plimus - because these are high ticket items.
I have to do quite a bit of pursuasion - people don't like the idea of discounting, but I always guarantee that I will pay them a certain amount of money, if I don't meet their monthly quota.
Don't ever remeber anybody being unhappy with me, usually people refuse right away, and those who agree never regret. Nowdays, my older clients offer me their newer products. Especially because I use direct mail, mostly postcards, because they are cheaper. There is a good technique for that too, but I wont to into details, you can read Alex Mandossian, if you want to.
These discussions are becoming akward,
I have a solution for everyone... make GREAT games, they will sell with proper marketting. I'm not sure about an Indie Portal working out too well here, because once its full of games it will fall under the same logistics as any other portal. And unless every game that's on that portal owns some % of the shares, then chances of the new portal becoming and affiliating with the others are really good.
The best way I see to make some loot is to make really good games. Then making more of them, establishing traffic to your site and affiliating with the other portals. Eventually becoming one of them, and if things are working great become better then the others.
All this talk from some people here about some things is irritating at times. Great to have an ego and knows-it-all attitudes, but when you live in Russia and $400/month can make you independant (in terms of living) things are a bit easier when you sell games, or other products online.
when you live in Russia and $400/month can make you independant (in terms of living)
Well. I was just chating with another guy on issue. Where you got so low limit dima? Times are really changing too quickly here - that's why I ask. For lonely guy (without family and kids) living in some small town outside of culture centers - may be. But only for this separated case really.
Where you got so low limit dima?
I was in St. Petersburg last summer, average salaries were around $400/month. My mother who is a college teacher makes about that. My cousin who is an accountant makes about the same. Private taxi drivers probably make more. But overall that's around the average people make.
Anthony Flack
02-20-2005, 07:50 AM
Itsme - while I'm sure all the things you mentioned probably do help close more sales, it did strike me that a lot of the things you suggested writing were either misleading to customers, or (unless I'm misunderstanding), flat out untrue. Perhaps I simply don't have a good head for business, but I would still prefer to be straight up with people, even if (!) I don't make as much money.
As for marketing games, I imagine most people here want to market games in order to sell games, in order to continue making games. Not because it's the most lucrative thing they could be doing, but because it's necessary to continue doing what they want to do.
Itsme
02-20-2005, 08:01 AM
Itsme - while I'm sure all the things you mentioned probably do help close more sales, it did strike me that a lot of the things you suggested writing were either misleading to customers, or (unless I'm misunderstanding), flat out untrue. Perhaps I simply don't have a good head for business, but I would still prefer to be straight up with people, even if (!) I don't make as much money.
As for marketing games, I imagine most people here want to market games in order to sell games, in order to continue making games. Not because it's the most lucrative thing they could be doing, but because it's necessary to continue doing what they want to do.
Tony (if I may), do you know that McDonalds estimates that "Would you like fries with that" brings in extra 1 billion dollars each year? That's ONE BILLION DOLLARS extra. If you don't believe me, I'll actually search for a link where you can read it. Another exmample (from Claude Hopkins times). If a waiter asks "Would you like wine with this" he gets DISMAL result, compared to "Would you like red wine or white wine with that".
Here is the point - you will NEVER see most of your website visitors. I do mean that - never again. You have only one chance to sell them. This is why you structure offer with a call to action. Steve done this with his games and there is ample evidence that it really works. Better yet, you can actually try this almost word for word for your next newsletter (if you have it).
I was in St. Petersburg last summer, average salaries were around $400/month. My mother who is a college teacher makes about that. My cousin who is an accountant makes about the same. Private taxi drivers probably make more. But overall that's around the average people make.
I didn't knew how close you are to real sources dima. ;)
So, you know the situation but interprete it by slightly incorrect way.
Look. You know for sure that college teachers are not the people on the top of salaries here - that's pain to say but true. You know for sure also that all prices on products are equal to world wide and even higher some times.
And of course you forgot to mention or I didn't realize that you mention that 400$/month that's for one person - meaning for my family with 2 kids and wife sitting at home I should get 1600 (1200 at least) - that would be closer to the truth.
PS No any flame battle. OK? I'm just trying to explain the picture to another guys who wasn't visiting St.Petersburg by last summer - of course if you will approve my estimations.
Steve done this with his games and there is ample evidence that it really works.
Dmitry, What ever Steve did or not - I will never insert that huge number of BUY NOW buttons inside the game as he did in Dweep. :)
REM: Hell knows may be I'm just idiot but I interprete such implementation as dissaster of peoples' respect to our company activity. That's pain to know if we are loosing some money through that - but I just can't.
arcadetown
02-20-2005, 11:03 AM
Here is the point - you will NEVER see most of your website visitors (again).
Your comments are interesting and some are useful but most only really make sense in a one off search engine visitor environment. In a repeat visitor environment (which most guys strive for) it's hard to get users to feel secure. So be careful with high powered techniques that smell fishy to users. A quick way to turn them away forever and fullfil your statement.
You're right about once get good a selling thing. Good thing most of us do games cause we like it. A buddy concentrates on adult related affiliate deals making good money but he still balances it with a comfortable medium powered approach.
luggage
02-20-2005, 11:30 AM
Tony (if I may), do you know that McDonalds estimates that "Would you like fries with that" brings in extra 1 billion dollars each year? That's ONE BILLION DOLLARS extra. If you don't believe me, I'll actually search for a link where you can read it. Another exmample (from Claude Hopkins times). If a waiter asks "Would you like wine with this" he gets DISMAL result, compared to "Would you like red wine or white wine with that".
There is a HUGE difference though. What you're suggesting here is the equilavent of me asking "would you like Snowball Frenzy with the Party Bowling?" or "would you like Snowball Frenzy or Puzzle Word with that Part Bowling?".
I don't see waiters say "which wine would you like? and can you please buy one because I'm getting married and we need the income."
Itsme
02-20-2005, 11:54 AM
There is a HUGE difference though. What you're suggesting here is the equilavent of me asking "would you like Snowball Frenzy with the Party Bowling?" or "would you like Snowball Frenzy or Puzzle Word with that Part Bowling?".
I don't see waiters say "which wine would you like? and can you please buy one because I'm getting married and we need the income."
Actually, that's not the point. If I say "50% off sale" chances are you'll ignore that. Why? Because you are bombarded with advertisement on and off the web.
Here is another example - and this is ALL human psychology. This study has been done God knows how long ago.
There was a line in library with people waiting to photocopy documents.
They did a man/woman split testing (let's ignore the results, irrelevant to this discussion).
Then they had a person say
"Can you let me go first and photocopy this book?"
this was the control
the second quesion was along the lines
"Can you let me go first, because I have to be in a hospital in 1 hour for a surgery"
74% more effective [the actual question was worded differently, but I just don't remember - it's been 7 years since my professor Dr. Avis told the story]
the third quesion was
"Can you let me go first, because I am in a hurry"
And the effectiveness as 67% or something along these line. The point was that it was almost as effective as in case 2.
This was just an example to teach us the power of "Because". If you study NLP, you'll see references to that repeatedly.
Watch any infomercial. By the way, in case you are wondering if these work at all - infomercials cost around $100000 (one hundred thousand) to shoot these days. And "scrap time" on cable ain't cheap either. heck, do you know how much money QVC rakes in? Why, because they know how to make an offer - pay attention to details - free gift (usually 2 or three), scarcity tactics, etc.
All I know from my own experience (and you are more than welcome to replicate the experiment and report results here) that changing a phrase from
"trial version available" to "for a limited time, you can download and use ProgramName absolutely free" yields about 25-30% more dowloads, and quite a bit better if you write that in red bold letters, and even much better if you do a complete special offer. Why is that? I have no idea. Well, actually I do, that's because most folks describe their products but don't give me a reason to download software immediately. it's like "hey, whenever you feel like it, come back and try our groovy DVD software". For some reason, people just click more if you say that you can try it free for a limited time.
Itsme
02-20-2005, 12:00 PM
Here is an article about that, although the 200 billion dollar number is not correct - that's probably McDonalds total gross sales
http://www.theallineed.com/ad-marketing-1/marketing-045.htm
It's kind of really basic, but it does have a few pointers about upselling - something that indies rarely do.
And now: How that all connected to the question in topic Dmitry?
I was mentioning before and repeat one more time: Why not to start your own topic if you like to promote yourself here?
RedKnight
02-20-2005, 04:11 PM
Better yet.
Why not write a article/essay about it or maybe a Book,
we can read offline.
Hey even Steve is going to write a book about it.
There was a line in library with people waiting to photocopy documents.
They did a man/woman split testing (let's ignore the results, irrelevant to this discussion).
Then they had a person say
"Can you let me go first and photocopy this book?"
this was the control
the second quesion was along the lines
"Can you let me go first, because I have to be in a hospital in 1 hour for a surgery"
74% more effective [the actual question was worded differently,
I don't see what this has to do with Indie Games marketing.
(yeah, Like I'm going to let him go first. Most of us don't fall for that trick)
Anyway, I think it is better not to mislead or Spam our custumer base, since most of the indie dev still needs them to buy sequels, and other new (QUALITY :D )games.
Itsme
02-20-2005, 04:44 PM
This is what it boils down to. I may like a game (an indie game), and may be I'll buy it, may be I won't. Hey, but if there is a reason for me to buy now ("we are releasing version 2.0 next week, and the price will be 24.95. Folks who buy version 1.0 for 19.95 will get a free upgrade")
No one says you have to spam or lie to your customers. Do an experiment. Create a free 25 level bonus pack pack and post a message "This week, I will give person who buys ... a free 25 level bonus pack because, (and this is where you reason is - it's my wedding aniversary, five years since I developed my first game, because I need money for a bail to get out of jail where I got for murdering six people). Well, I guess you could not post a bail if you murdered six people. Make it two :)
luggage
02-20-2005, 04:47 PM
This is what it boils down to. I may like a game (an indie game), and may be I'll buy it, may be I won't. Hey, but if there is a reason for me to buy now ("we are releasing version 2.0 next week, and the price will be 24.95. Folks who buy version 1.0 for 19.95 will get a free upgrade")
No one says you have to spam or lie to your customers. Do an experiment. Create a free 25 level bonus pack pack and post a message "This week, I will give person who buys ... a free 25 level bonus pack because, (and this is where you reason is - it's my wedding aniversary, five years since I developed my first game, because I need money for a bail to get out of jail where I got for murdering six people). Well, I guess you could not post a bail if you murdered six people. Make it two :)But you're basically saying lie to your customers! I want our customers to come back for more games how many times can I get married/need money/repeatedly lie. And your 'postcard' mail drops sound a lot like junk mail - which is just as bad as spam.
Why not just create great games and offer free expansion packs for full versions of the game only. Then keep making great games.
Promaginy
02-20-2005, 06:58 PM
All I know from my own experience (and you are more than welcome to replicate the experiment and report results here) that changing a phrase from "trial version available" to "for a limited time, you can download and use ProgramName absolutely free" yields about 25-30% more dowloads, and quite a bit better if you write that in red bold letters, and even much better if you do a complete special offer. Why is that? I have no idea. Well, actually I do, that's because most folks describe their products but don't give me a reason to download software immediately. it's like "hey, whenever you feel like it, come back and try our groovy DVD software". For some reason, people just click more if you say that you can try it free for a limited time.
Very interesting. It really is all about semantics. Everything you wrote is in fact true. "...for a limited time, you can download and use the game absolutely free..." is not lying or being misleading. It is just creating a compelling reason to try the software out. I will definately incorporate that method into my marketing plan.
Ricardo C
02-20-2005, 07:13 PM
Steve does that with Dweep, doesn't he? "If you act now, get an extra 10 levels!" or some such. He admits he gives everyone the levels, regardless of when they order, but his wording creates a sense of urgency that pushes the fence-sitters over the edge.
It might be worth a try with a second, smaller game on your site (so that you're not really offering a discounted "full-fledged" game, but just selling the smaller game at full price, while making it seem like a huge savings): "Get Goopy Goopums for just $10 if you order My Big Bad Indie Game within the next hour!"
Itsme
02-21-2005, 12:44 AM
But you're basically saying lie to your customers! I want our customers to come back for more games how many times can I get married/need money/repeatedly lie. And your 'postcard' mail drops sound a lot like junk mail - which is just as bad as spam.
Well, if you are so insisten, you can lie. I don't see any lie in "we are giving away 25 level bonusl pack because it's St.Valentines Day." Or because it's Einstien birthday (by the way, had very good sales on Einstein birthday - march 14. Why? Because people are tried of Thanksgiving Sales and Mother Day Sales).
What I say is just try it. March 14th is coming up. Do a three-day sale 13-14-15 of March. Don't think any game makers use the Einstien birthday sale trick (although it's been used in marketing since sixties). You really don't have to lie or spam. Do you know why I used postrards - because it's too damn expensive to ship DVDs. So I had people get postards, log in (had a special "secret domain" and request "free" DVD - worked well for a while, but then it got to the point of breaking even).
Itsme
02-21-2005, 12:50 AM
Very interesting. It really is all about semantics. Everything you wrote is in fact true. "...for a limited time, you can download and use the game absolutely free..." is not lying or being misleading. It is just creating a compelling reason to try the software out. I will definately incorporate that method into my marketing plan.
You should. Go to www.thegaryhalbertletter.com and read every single issue. It's gold mine (and it's totally free). Website is your salesletter on the web.
One of the most popular ads in the United States (ran for 40! years unchanged) was "Do you make these mistakes in English" - this is how you apply it to game marketing (not would you like Feeding Frenzy or Zuma). Another excellent example of writing a headline is John Carlton famous "one-legged golfer" series of ads. And read National Enquirer - "Boy eats his own head" - you can't beat a headline like that :)
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