How to developing for consoles???

[=D=]

Hello

Does any body know how to develop for consoles like Xbox, PS2. Are there any SDK's or somethink

[Ricardo C]

Yes there are SDKs. But only official third-party developers have access to them. And those who become third-party developers need very deep pockets, and more often than not, a proven treack record as developers. You're aiming for the impossible.

[Raptisoft]

Impossible is a strong word.

You're aiming for the unecessarily difficult.

[luggage]

I think if you have to ask how you code for the consoles and if there's an SDK available then 'impossible' would probably seem about right.

[Dan MacDonald]

Oberon media seems to be the best way for indies to get access to this kind of thing. Microsoft has has an "indie" SDK off and on. I think it's currently off, but you had to present a formal design document and have it accepted by msft and then pay some money so it wasn't trivial.

[Coyote]

I vaguely remember back in the day a development kit for console ran approximately $25,000. Of course, you still had to get approved - they won't just sell you one over the Internet.

If you are looking for a credible path to developing for a console, it would probably be:

Step 1 - Release a tight, solid, and most importantly POLISHED game for the PC that is of a genre that is not uncommon on consoles (a match-three bubble-popper might not be the best choice).

Step 2 - With one or more games from step 1 to your credit, foster relationships with companies that have development licenses for the consoles.

Step 3 - Pitch your willingness to do ports of games to other platforms.

Step 4 - Live from contract to contract doing ports, add-ons, and other people's games hoping for the day you might get your big break and be able to one day release a game of your own for a console.

[BongPig]

Well, we are official Xbox and Nintendo DS developers. We have an Xbox dev but no dev kit for the DS, although we could buy one if we wanted to as we have dev status.
We didnt have to pay anything to get dev status for either, and the Xbox dev-kit was lent to us by MS for no money at all after we demo'd Mutant Storm to them. Damn fine people! :)
So, it certainly doesnt have to be very expensive... although we were quite lucky!
Its far from impossible, as we've proven.

Must remember tho, Microsoft ( as well as the others : Sony, Nintento etc ) have to give every potential game the thumbs up before it can be released on thier console. The problem is, even if you have the dev kits, and an amazing game, you cannot submit directly to MS, Sony, nintendo etc yourself. It must be done through an official publisher/developer.
This is where things tend to get stuck.

[z3lda]

It must be done through an official publisher/developer.

Who was the publisher of Mutant Storm?

[BongPig]

Who was the publisher of Mutant Storm?

We didnt find one in the end. Getting the kit and doing the conversion turned out to be reasonably painless, so we didnt kill too much time.

Luckily, Xbox Live Arcade came around so we finally did get Mutant Storm to Xbox.

[cliffski]

One of the best things about the PC is the zero entry barrier. I hate to think of some bunch of people in a room somewhere deciding if my game is 'good enough' to be released. Let the customers decide that.

[Abscissa]

One of the best things about the PC is the zero entry barrier. I hate to think of some bunch of people in a room somewhere deciding if my game is 'good enough' to be released. Let the customers decide that.
Well, given the lack of online distribution for the consoles, the costs involved in manufacturing and shipping a sufficient quantity of games could certinly be high enough that I can understand their reluctance to accept just any game.

But, right, it would kinda suck to have to have your game deemed 'a likely money-maker' by a publisher before you could release.

[luggage]

But, right, it would kinda suck to have to have your game deemed good enough by a publisher before you could release.And that applies for the PC market too.

[Evak]

last time I worked on consoles, you got the xbox dev kit for free as part of the incubator program. If you could produce something that had promise you could purchase further xbox kits for $1000 each.

Sony dev kits were $10,000 each, and a test kit $1000 each. The test kit is the same as a regular PS2 with a sony mod chip in. The funny thing was that 3 months before going gold we couldn't get any more test kits for artists and beta testers so we ended up buying modded PS2's instead for about $260 each.

[James C. Smith]

Xbox dev kits cost $10,000. For $1,000 you get a “debug” kit not a full dev kit. But a debug kit is all you need. That’s all I used to develop Ricochet Lost Worlds for Live Arcade. The full dev kit adds DVD-ROM emulation and I think some extra low level debugging. But the debug kit has everything you need if you don’t care about replicating exact DVD disk access times.

[PoV]

If you were just wanting to 'learn', Sony used to have the linux kit for the PS2 available for $199 (later $99). That gave you all the fun docs for the processors and the GPU you could toy with. Doing a search recently shows that they've discontinued it.

[Kaylon]

I was just curious;

What language(s)/OS is required to develop on the new Playstation Personal?
Does anyone know if there are any emulators for PSP?


Thanks.

[PoV]

Console games that don't run on a Microsoft system are all developed with GCC as the compiler (including the PSP, PS2, PSX, GBA, Cube, N64, Dreamcast), in C++ (rarely C, perhaps if someone's lead is anal enough). There is an oddity with the DS and Codewarrior, but lets not get in to that. Most developers do so on Windows platforms (XP or 2k), but some do have uses for Linux or at least Cygwin (which is often what GCC is running under). The PSP has something of an emulator for professional developers, but it runs at a hidious framerate, and it's soooo not available to the public.

[Jim Buck]

I was just curious;

What language(s)/OS is required to develop on the new Playstation Personal?
Does anyone know if there are any emulators for PSP?


Thanks.

PlayStation Portable (not Personal) has a RISC processor, so it can have software developed in any language that has a RISC-based backend. Having said that, people are usually developing in a combination of C++, C, and ASM using either a modified gcc or SN Systems or Metroworks compilers. Like another poster said, the emulator is under tight restriction and given only to licensed developers.

[Kaylon]

Thanks PoV and Jim, now I just need to find out what gcc and ASM are!

[Jim Buck]

Whoa, either you're kidding or you need to start from the very beginning rather than try to, from the get-go, develop a console game. gcc is "GNU C compiler" and asm refers to assembly language. To develop a console game, you usually have to be a full-blown developer with a proven track record of titles you finished and have a relationship with a publisher (who ultimately gives you access to console development hardware).

[anxer]

Game Studio from conitec claims that the next version will support XBox out of the box. I think that other game engines already support playstation and xbox (torque or havoc ..)

Regarding PS2 and linux you can buy it online from linuxplay.com

Cheers

[Ricardo C]

Game Studio from conitec claims that the next version will support XBox out of the box. I think that other game engines already support playstation and xbox (torque or havoc ..)

Regarding PS2 and linux you can buy it online from linuxplay.com

Cheers

Umm... When have Conitec claimed that?

[Jim Buck]

I have a PS2 Linux devkit I would otherwise be willing to part with, however the keyboard and mouse work very nicely with my laptop. :) The rest of the kit, I could consider selling if anyone is interested - PS2 Linux software, monitor cable, hard drive, and ethernet add-on.

[joe]

Is there a SDK available for X/BOX?

As XBox has PC-similar hardware I'm just wondering if it's possbile to turn any DirectX-compatible PC-Game into an X-Box Game???

[Jim Buck]

Sure, XBox has an SDK. But, as with the other console systems, I am sure you have to be a registered developer.

[Sharpfish]

Solid advice. Concentrate on PC/MAC first before even thinking about Consoles. I have done some GBA dev stuff (nothing official) and it costs money to do it properly (licences etc).

As someone else said, both Sony AND MS have strict testing procedures and guidelines (TCRs and TRCs). Even full blown companies with $$$ behind them can get into scrapes because of this. I know, I have worked from 8am one morning until 6am the next due to a release candidate failing a submission in the company I work for (though nothing to do with me directly). There is a lot of straight jacketing (from a technical standpoint) that they impose on the development process which would be a nightmare for a new (one man/few man team) developer.

Lastly, giant PS2 cased PCs, transparent green Xboxs, and jade green gamecubes (and now PSPs on permanent link up to devkits) are a common site around game companies - but they are something you would not want to even contemplate paying top $$$ for until you had experience and confidence that you could pull it off.

[PoV]

Heh, you think Sony/Microsoft's/Nintendo's TRC's are a pain? Compared to Vodafone's, they're a joke. *Shakes fist at Vodafone*

[summoner]

There is an oddity with the DS and Codewarrior, but lets not get in to that.

I'd like to hear about this(just my curiousity).

[Greg Squire]

If you just want to mess around with XBox dev, try looking into the XNA Creators Club (http://creators.xna.com/). You can use XNA to build your game and run it on Windows, and then if you have a yearly subscription to the XNA Creators Club, you can then run your game on your own XBox.

If you want to publish a game on a console then take all the good advice offered above.

[Dan MacDonald]

Summoner, why did you register and make a single post just to exercise this aged thread? THREAD NECRO!

[summoner]

Actually this was the topic that led my to the forum and eventually registering, so I thought of starting posting from here too.Also,because at the time I found this thread I was looking for information similar to the topic why not to bring it back instead of making a similar one?
Anyway,what I actually was looking for was general information about SDKs, DevKits etc that have to do with consoles/handhelds. Not because I've the budget or the experience to work on something like that,just interest.
I'm planning to stick around by the way.

[PoV]

I'd like to hear about this(just my curiousity).
*shrug*. Well it's just that. Whoever owns the CodeWarrior IDE/brand made a deal with Nintendo (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=NINTENDO_DS&fsrch=1). I personally don't like it, 'cause I prefer work in a different editor, and I'm happy using GCC/MSVC CL and custom makefiles.

[MrQ]

I worked for a company who modded normal xbox's and ran the dev software on them. $299 devkit!
I think MS may have patched that, im not totally sure now.

[Oaf]

Heh, you think Sony/Microsoft's/Nintendo's TRC's are a pain? Compared to Vodafone's, they're a joke. *Shakes fist at Vodafone*

Hahaha I feel your pain PoV :)

I think filling out the submission spreadsheet takes longer than coding the submission itself!

[PoV]

Hahaha I feel your pain PoV :)
My name is Mike and I once developed cellphone games. I'm just glad to say I've been clean for 18 months. ;)
</CellphoneDevelopersAnoymousMeeting>

I worked for a company who modded normal xbox's and ran the dev software on them. $299 devkit!
Deal indeed. The sad part about console development back in the day, was the freely available tools for Gameboy (RGBDS+NoCash+Flashcarts) and Gameboy Advance (DevKitAdvanced+VirtualBoy+Flashcarts) were better than what Nintendo offered. That made things really cheap and easy for smaller companies to become large players in the portable games market. It also lead the way for *many* budget portable games. It's nice to see Sony and Microsoft putting the effort forward to legally encourage low budget development, and Nintendo keeping their kit prices down.

[Videogame Biscuit]

With Torque Game Builder and Torque Engine (available at Garage Games (http://www.garagegames.com)) it's possible to write games for the XBox Live Arcade; you need a separate license though. In any case, it will be cheaper than an XBox 360 development kit!

[andrew]

... except that at some point, you'll have to pitch microsoft on your product, acquire a devkit, and pass their cert process to have any hope of getting a game into retail.

[KNau]

From everything I've seen, it's wonderful for your ego and maybe (but certainly not a guarantee) for your bank account to have a game on the consoles. But it's not wonderful to actually develop for the consoles, know what I mean?

My advice would be to develop a game for the PC, port it to Mac (kind of a console in itself) on your own. If it's a hit you then you can get a publisher to sub out the further porting of the game to some Eastern European sweat shop and collect a percentage on your IP.

[Xiotex]

The sideline that pays the bills for me is working on console projects and to be honest the only difference these days is that a console is a stable (ish) platform that you don't have to worry about configuration issues apart from localisation. Especially for the X360 its pretty much like coding for a PC with a few slight differences. The big downside is unless you have a killer game that everyone wants its going to have to compete on very small shelf space - unless you go the arcade route and even then there's a lot of competition these days.

At least if you self publish on your own website your only big hassle is getting traffic to that site and grabbing yourself some conversions.

[Applewood]

From everything I've seen, it's wonderful for your ego and maybe (but certainly not a guarantee) for your bank account to have a game on the consoles. But it's not wonderful to actually develop for the consoles, know what I mean?
You should try 360 - it ticks all the boxes. Not only are we projected to make $250,000+ for a chess game, developing it on X360 is about two months more complicated than for PC and the devkit is damn good. Better still, the version of PIX that runs on it will blow your mind - it makes the PC version look silly.

We develop for 360 and PC (and PS3 shortly) at the same time, but our primary build is 360. Not because that's what will make more money, or needs more attention to detail, but because the dev environment is actually better!

At least if you self publish on your own website your only big hassle is getting traffic to that site and grabbing yourself some conversions.A lot of people seem to say this as a throwaway, however as far as I'm concerned gaining enough visibility to make a decent living selling PC titles is practically impossible because of this. I know of a tiny handful of PC developers making money independently, whereas every single developer with a title on XBLA will be making shitloads.

[chanon]

You should try 360 - it ticks all the boxes. Not only are we projected to make $250,000+ for a chess game.

OK, I'm convinced. So how would one start developing for the 360 and how would one get their game on XBLA?

[Applewood]

Get a secure office. That can probably be in the garage as no-one actually checks, but it wouldn't be my reccommendation.

Contact MS with your proposal, ideally sending them a PC demo. The bigwigs will then assess it for viability. Contrary to Cliff's cynicism, that goes like this:

1) Is this of a sufficient minimal production standard
2) Have we just greenlit something similar that it'll clash with
3) Has it the potential to actually sell.

If you get the right answer to all 3, you're in business. I would've thought that Cliff et all would want some marketing experts to give them answers to those three questions for free tbh, but whatever.

After that, you need to buy a devkit or get them to loan you one if your project is getting them pumped. We blagged one so I know it's possible.

Develop game, sell game, retire.

Ok, that's all a bit simplified admittedly but this entire process is not as daunting as people who don't know make it out to be. It'll cost you about 10 grand upfront(ish). That's a piss little investment for a new business venture. I doubt you could set up any other business on less.

[chanon]

Good advice, thanks!

So the smart thing to do I think, is to develop a high quality game that should do well on the PC but with the XBLA in mind as a potential target (rather than putting everything into trying to get on XBLA)

Not that I have a game ready, but I was wondering who to contact if I had one?

[voxel]

Develop game, sell game, retire.

I'm seriously looking at the XBLA market, but from the numbers I've been given by insiders on the what Microsoft's cut on sales - it's rather scary...

If you can develop your game for super-cheap(under $100k) then XBLA makes sense, but any time you have a game of reasonable budget (with near next-gen graphics) it's not a great market because the sales potential is pretty limited (low: 20k, high: 100k).

[Applewood]

If you can develop your game for super-cheap(under $100k) then XBLA makes sense, but any time you have a game of reasonable budget (with near next-gen graphics) it's not a great market because the sales potential is pretty limited (low: 20k, high: 100k).
Sort of. If you've been working on HL2 beater for the past two years, you want to get a publisher and sell it properly.

If your game is poo or missing the demographic you won't make that much on XBLA same as you wouldn't elsewhere - you've still got to get everything right to make serious money. If you do, that 100K max you mention can be seriously exceeded. I doubt that's the case on PC download where most people seem to stuggle to even eat from feedback here.

That 3D mega ultra mini uber crazy golf or whatever it's called is probably the highest standard you'll need to go to (through there are some surprising annoyances with it), but I'm willing to bet it's paying the devs off in spades. It looks good and is right on the money with XBLA potential punters. I reckon I could develop a similar game of similar quality for well under 100K and I'm sure you could too.

[voxel]

That 3D mega ultra mini uber crazy golf or whatever it's called is probably the highest standard you'll need to go to (through there are some surprising annoyances with it), but I'm willing to bet it's paying the devs off in spades. It looks good and is right on the money with XBLA potential punters. I reckon I could develop a similar game of similar quality for well under 100K and I'm sure you could too.

It's a fun / addictive game for sure and has solid production values and - maybe - I could develop it for under $100k (US) but it would be tight considering the amount of art and animation in the game (they cut corners on the camera + physics tho').

This issue is whether 3D ultra mini golf has real sales potential long term. Right now, XBLA is starved for content so it might sell more than 30k copies but better games will be released in a year then 3D ultra mini golf II comes out - is anybody going to buy it?