Punching a gifthorse in the mouth ... [Archive] - Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards

DangerCode

02-11-2005, 08:25 PM

People have a right to their opinion. Get over it.

Isn't this just a little ironic? That people should have a right to an opinion, but I should get over it?

Well, my opinion is that this place isn't a great resource for encouragement at times. Should we not strive to do better?

People don't need to worship Dave ground he walks on, but I don't understand why we can't have some respect for those that are succesful. By being successful, Dave brings more customers into the shareware gaming world. That's good news for all of us.

I especially think it's hypocritical that he's raked over the coals by people who themselves author games that are obvious clones of other titles that came before them.

svero

02-11-2005, 08:53 PM

Isn't this just a little ironic? That people should have a right to an opinion, but I should get over it?

Maybe, but I didn't say you couldn't post your opinion. Just that I didn't agree with it.

Well, my opinion is that this place isn't a great resource for encouragement at times. Should we not strive to do better?

How exactly. By not letting anthony post that he thinks cloning similar to Snood is unethical. That's his opinion, and he's one person. If that's all it takes to scare Dave off well.. what can I do?

People don't need to worship Dave ground he walks on, but I don't understand why we can't have some respect for those that are succesful.

Plenty of very successful people post here regularly from popcap, reflexive, and other companies. I don't think that's it's disrespectful to say "hey I don't like what you did with snood" - It's an opinion. Some may agree and some may not. I agree that we'd be worse off if Dave chose not to post because of it, but we'd also be worse off if Anthony were silenced.

- S

Anthony Flack

02-11-2005, 09:06 PM

I especially think it's hypocritical that he's raked over the coals by people who themselves author games that are obvious clones of other titles that came before them.

I think that thread was locked for a reason. Once things had decended to that degree of silliness, there was no hope for reasoned debate.

What is perhaps ironic, is that you decide to take it upon yourself to restart the argument, and not even with your own argument, but by a near-verbatim quote of someone else's, while at the same time saying that everyone should be nice all the time. So I'm not sure whether you're for arguing, or against it. Or just wanting to suck up to anyone you perceive as successful.

But since we never actually clarified this point - what is the game I so obviously cloned, Dangercode?

Jack Norton

02-12-2005, 12:55 AM

I don't define a successful indie someone who ask to install Bonzy Buddy (spyware stuff) together with the game... :D and you?

Anthony Flack

02-12-2005, 12:58 AM

Jack - let's not go there again, eh?

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 04:23 AM

I think that thread was locked for a reason. Once things had decended to that degree of silliness, there was no hope for reasoned debate.

So the discussion turns silly once you are challenged to live up to your own standards?

As for "reasoned debate", I remind you of the second post in the thread ...

I'm not surprised the slashdotters have taken offense. A great big article praising the creative genuis who came up with Snood, without ever mentioning that it's a clone, and a crappily made one at that. That's not just an oversight - it's downright crooked.

Okay, so he made a fortune off it. Lucky. He'd be struggling to sell a single copy if it was released today.

And sure, that might not be an original sentiment, but it's still the goddamn truth, and (not surprisingly), I take offense at that article. Genius my eye - he's a lucky shmuck barely capable of making games (what's he made since?), and there are any number of people on this forum more capable and talented than he, who will never receive a fraction of the recognition.

Reasonalbe debate? You entered the discussion with both barrels blazing!

What is perhaps ironic, is that you decide to take it upon yourself to restart the argument, and not even with your own argument, but by a near-verbatim quote of someone else's

Because it is so painfully obvious that those who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

I first played your game a couple of years ago and thought, "Meh, this is just R-type with claymation". Personally, I don't think that's a big deal, but hey, if you're going to have an elitist attitude ...

So I'm not sure whether you're for arguing, or against it. Or just wanting to suck up to anyone you perceive as successful.

Or just wanting to expect more from this place. I percieve Platypus as successful, and I'm clealy not sucking up to you.

I've seen you on this high horse before, and I just wonder how someone who obviously borrowed gameplay from other titles thinks they above this criticism?

But since we never actually clarified this point - what is the game I so obviously cloned, Dangercode?

It screams R-Type/Gradius to me. Perhaps you can tell us what is in your game that I can't find in those other titles? Is claymation the key to originality?

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 04:32 AM

By not letting anthony post that he thinks cloning similar to Snood is unethical.

Anonthy should feel free to post anything he desires as any of us should feel free to challenge his opinions.

I don't think that's it's disrespectful to say "hey I don't like what you did with snood" - It's an opinion.

I don't think that's disrespectful either, but let's be honest, the opinions expressed in that thread against Snood and Dave were hardly that civil. Read the very first reply in that thread.

... but we'd also be worse off if Anthony were silenced.

Again you misrepresent me as trying to silence Anonthy. There's a huge difference between censoring his opinions and challenging them.

princec

02-12-2005, 04:36 AM

Blah blah blah... thread already descended to rather directed attacks at individuals... lockdown impending...

Cas :)

Anthony Flack

02-12-2005, 04:56 AM

Sorry princec - here it comes.

R-Type SLASH Gradius, now? When did it stop being an R-Type clone? Can it be both? Hey, maybe it's a direct, obvious clone a whole lot of different games, simultaneously! Maybe there's no such thing as a clone at all? Perhaps it's just a made-up word that people use about games like Snood for no reason! Wow, your logic is impeccable.

Or perhaps, you're an idiot, demanding I explain the difference between a clone and a non-clone that is perfectly obvious to everybody else, just because you feel like picking a fight. How very tiresome. I guess I'll have to play mister mean, elitist, hating person a little longer.

Do you really need me to tell you that my game isn't based on either R-Type or Gradius, and that those games in fact more closely resemble each other than either of them do my game? And that anyone who likes shooters can see quite quickly that this is the case? Do I need to explain to you about the thousands upon thousands of design decisions I made when creating the game, without ever looking for inspiration from either R-Type or Gradius at any point? Do I need to explain to you how a clone that takes inspiration from a wide variety of sources (many of them non-videogame related) is, in fact, not a clone at all, because the very definition of a clone depends on cribbing the majority of your inspiration directly from a single source? Or are we still going to go with your definition of a clone that includes pretty much all videogames?

Why do you say R-Type and Gradius, anyway? Because it's viewed from the side?

Anthony Flack

02-12-2005, 04:59 AM

I don't think that's disrespectful either, but let's be honest, the opinions expressed in that thread against Snood and Dave were hardly that civil. Read the very first reply in that thread.

Written in response to an article that made out that Snood was a great original. That hundreds of other people complained about, no less strongly. But about which I was singled out as the voice of unfair criticism.

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 05:11 AM

R-Type SLASH Gradius, now? When did it stop being an R-Type clone?

I view R-Type/Gradius as the same game essentially. I used the slash because I wasn't sure which came first.

Can it be both?

Certainly. A clone of a clone of a clone is still a clone. Again, I don't think it's a big deal, but I'd like to see how you live up to your own standards.

Or perhaps, you're an idiot ...

HELLO! It looks like the shoe just dropped.

Okay, so I've hit a nerve. Perhaps you don't like it when the quality of your own work is questioned? Why do you so easily talk trash of others then?

Do you really need me to tell you that my game isn't based on either R-Type or Gradius <snip> ...

You can just explain to me what Platypus offers that I can't find in those other titles. From where I stand, you copied just as much as Snood did in that regard.

Which of course I think is fine until you start talking smack.

Rev. Stuart Campbell

02-12-2005, 05:18 AM

I view R-Type/Gradius as the same game essentially.

Then you are a buffoon of a magnitude beyond calculation, and have no right to have any kind of opinion on game design afforded one single atom of respect.

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 05:18 AM

That hundreds of other people complained about, no less strongly.

Well, if were going to talk numbers then what about the thousands more that have purchased the game instead?

Really now, you don't think some slashdotters would tear your game a new one if it was brought to their attention?

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 05:22 AM

Then you are a buffoon of a magnitude beyond calculation ...

One of the things you'll never find a shortage of on the internet is the sheer quanitity of people willing to call you names over any opinion you may have.

I am honored though, that your first post was so elegantly pointed towards me.

... and have no right to have any kind of opinion on game design afforded one single atom of respect.

Sure I do, and I will continue to do so.

Gradius and R-Type (and their many derivitives, of which Platypus is one) share many, many similarities.

Anthony Flack

02-12-2005, 05:25 AM

I don't mind my work being criticised, as long as it's fair. You can say you think it's crap if you like. That I did a poor job in balancing it. Bad level design. Whatever. I don't mind. But talking nonsense, about my game or other peoples', I do find tiresome.

You can just explain to me what Platypus offers that I can't find in those other titles. From where I stand, you copied just as much as Snood did in that regard.

And here lies the charge of idiot. Every element in Platypus, in fact, is different from every element in R-Type or Gradius, barring the possible occasional coincidence (not being familiar enough with either to say that with total confidence). In fact, if you list the similarities, you have to do so in incredibly vague terms... your ship moves in 4 directions and shoots to the right... there are enemies that move and shoot in different ways... weapons can be upgraded in certain ways... the screen scrolls from right to left... different things happen. Once you move away from these incredibly vague descriptions, you see that each element in each game is in fact different.

And either you know that already, and are just playing dumb, or you're genuinely an idiot. By your definition, almost all videgames are in fact clones, and all the people that described Snood as a clone are therefore delusional.

Do you really think the slashdotters would all jump up and down and say "this is just an R-Type clone!"?

luggage

02-12-2005, 05:27 AM

Can you tell me what Half Life 2 offers over Wolfenstein?

Oh. Half Life 2 must be a clone as well then.

Can you really not see the difference? Or are you just winding people up on purpose?

*waits for thread to be locked*

svero

02-12-2005, 05:32 AM

If I lock all the entertaining threads people will stop visiting the board ;-)

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 05:35 AM

I don't mind my work being criticised, as long as it's fair.

What's fair? How are your comments in that other thread "fair"? Is it unfair to ask how your own game lives up to your standards?

And here lies the charge of idiot.

Why is it that you feel justified in talking trash about others and then resort to name calling when you are challenged by your own opinions?

Perhaps you can explain what Platypus offers us that I can't find in R-Type/Gradius (or it's many derivatives)?

From where I stand, you borrowed just as much design than any other game I've played (including Snood) and wrapped in claymation (which in itself was done a decade ago in other games).

And either you know that already, and are just playing dumb, or you're genuinely an idiot.

Name calling, again.

By your definition, almost all videgames are in fact clones, and all the people that described Snood as a clone are therefore delusional.

Certainly not. I just don't see how your game is any less a clone than Snood.

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 05:42 AM

Can you tell me what Half Life 2 offers over Wolfenstein?

Oh. Half Life 2 must be a clone as well then.

I think there's a lot of room for intesting discussion on the subject on game clones.

The Half-Life series offers greatly scripted missions and (in the case of HL2) great physics.

Platypus offers R-Type/Gradius gameplay in a colorful environment.

Snood offers the same puzzle elements as Puzzle Bobble/Bust-A-Move while adding the proper design that still makes the game challenging - but without the time restrictions found in the other games.

Can you really not see the difference? Or are you just winding people up on purpose?=

I see no end of games on the indie market that are either heavily influenced or direct clones of other games that came before them (Arkanoid games being the most numerable). I don't understand how Snood is seen as such a big offender, especially by people who so obviously borrowed design from other games.

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 05:49 AM

Do you really think the slashdotters would all jump up and down and say "this is just an R-Type clone!"?

Just as many that jump up and down over Snood? Yep.

I can't possibly be the first person that has pointed the similarites your game shares with those that came before it.

luggage

02-12-2005, 05:49 AM

The Half-Life series offers greatly scripted missions and (in the case of HL2) great physics.So those 2 minor things (fixed happenings and more accurate physics) are enough for you to say that Half Life 2 isn't a clone of Wolfenstein? Yet Platypus is a 'clone' of R-Type. Huh?

luggage

02-12-2005, 05:53 AM

I don't understand how Snood is seen as such a big offender, especially by people who so obviously borrowed design from other games.One of the reasons Snood was discussed so much in that thread was because of the article written about it that proclaimed Snood as being highly original. It's not. Pretty much all the discussion (for want of a better word) could have applied to any clone. There was talk when Zuma was released - some people saw it as totally original until it was pointed out it's just a clone of an old arcade game.

You keep banging on about Platypus being a clone of R-Type, can you list all the similarities? Tell us why you think it's a clone rather than just stating it is. This means no "it's borrowed game design from R-Type", I want to know exactly what it is that it's copied.

Incidentally R-Type and Gradius weren't even the first side scrolling shooters.

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 05:53 AM

So those 2 minor things (fixed happenings and more accurate physics) are enough for you to say that Half Life 2 isn't a clone of Wolfenstein?

Well, I wouldn't say those 2 things are an exhaustive list of HL brought to the genre nor would I say they are minor.

Yet Platypus is a 'clone' of R-Type. Huh?

Just as much as Snood as a clone.

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 06:00 AM

You keep banging on about Platypus being a clone of R-Type, can you list all the similarities?

Why can't I have Anthony defend his own work by his own standards first?
I actually don't fault Platypus for being a derivative, I just think his opinions are a bit hypocritical.

Incidentally R-Type and Gradius weren't even the first side scrolling shooters.

And Street Figter wasn't the first fighting game either, but both R-Type and SF can be cloned (and have been).

Are we free from the sin of 'cloning' as long as a game's heriatage is ambigious? Well, let me know how many derivatives of a given game need to be produced before I can be free from that charge.

luggage

02-12-2005, 06:16 AM

Well, I wouldn't say those 2 things are an exhaustive list of HL brought to the genre nor would I say they are minor.That hasn't actually answered my point. By your Platypus\R-Type reasoning Half Life 2 is a clone of Wolfestein. What else is there? Better graphics? sound? When you want to make comparisons as vague as you are doing then pretty much all games are clones of something or other.

Why can't I have Anthony defend his own work by his own standards first?
I actually don't fault Platypus for being a derivative, I just think his opinions are a bit hypocritical.Because Anthony has responded by why he thinks Platypus isn't a clone. You've yet to explain why you think that Platypus is a clone (of 2 games no less!). Just saying "it's a clone" doesn't mean anything. Tell us why.

And Street Figter wasn't the first fighting game either, but both R-Type and SF can be cloned (and have been).You've kinda just trashed your argument there. That's exactly our point. R-Type HAS been cloned, and clearly Platypus isn't anything like one.

Just to clear things up for me so I know where you're coming from regarding clones...

1) Is Half Life 2 a clone of Wolfenstein?
2) Is Platypus a clone of Scramble?
3) Is R-Type a clone of Scramble?
4) Is Tekken a clone of Street Fighter?
5) Is Worms Blast a clone of Puzzle Bobble?

By your Platypus accusations all of these games are indeed clones - which is madness.

BongPig

02-12-2005, 07:08 AM

Ive had a thought.
I think a gamers preference for a genre plays a big part in this argument.

In that, a gamer who doesnt like shoot-em-ups may well see scrolling shooters as being very much the same kind of thing over & over.
However, a big shooter fan can see all the subtle differences that make two shooters very much different games.

The same, no doubt, goes for puzzle games. A big puzzle game fan will see the subtle differences between Snood and PuzzleBobble, and can enjoy both as different games. Show the two puzzle games to a shooter fan and they'll think its the same game.

Im not a puzzle game fan at all, so I certainly see Snood as a clone. The flip side is, to me, Gradius & R-Type are completely different games.
Im not right. None of us are. But we gotta accept that we wont get anywhere discussing this stuff, as we all dig different games. It ends up sounding more like genre bashing then a genuine discussion about cloning.

Am I making any sense, or talking too much shite again! :)

Dom

02-12-2005, 07:11 AM

In the begining, there was Space War - everything else was a clone. You stare at blobs on a screen, press buttons, and hope for bigger numbers to appear.

All this talk of 'clones are rubbish' is akin to saying that 'Crown paint is just a clone of Dulux paint, look they even have a green', or 'Toyota are just cloning Land Rovers...' etc. etc. Sheesh. It is not far off the bedroom coder fiercly protecting their 'secret game idea' when in truth the idea is worth little - it is the execution, polish, marketing, & above all its position in the marketplace that counts. Filling a gap in the market that is known to exist is good - Always trying to make your own niche is risky and not a good business strategy.

I say - 'Extremely well done to Dave', who i see as a fine example of a good BUSINESSMAN (not a term often associated with Indy developers - see rant above). The game was NOT readily available to the casual user (who far outnumbered the arcade/PS crowd) and he provided a game they wanted - fair play & well done for spotting a hole in the market.

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 07:14 AM

That's exactly our point. R-Type HAS been cloned, and clearly Platypus isn't anything like one.

Your joking, right?

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 07:20 AM

In that, a gamer who doesnt like shoot-em-ups may well see scrolling shooters as being very much the same kind of thing over & over.
However, a big shooter fan can see all the subtle differences that make two shooters very much different games.

I've got to say, BongPig, that is the most insightful post I've seen on the subject. It certainly gives of something to think about.

Ironically, though, I am a big fan of SHMUPs but I'm not really big on puzzle games. I see a lot of "clonage" going on in all game genres, but for some reason, clones of puzzle games routinely recieve more flak. Perhaps there is some further psychology involved, like puzzle games being "easier" to develop so their clones seem even more so lazy.

What I see is someone finding a strong market (or the market finding him). I don't doubt for one second that Taito would turn around and steal ideas from an Indie developer if they thought it would generate income.

svero

02-12-2005, 07:22 AM

Ive had a thought.
I think a gamers preference for a genre plays a big part in this argument.

I don't think so.

I think the difference comes into play because games of the bust-a-move genre are much more defined by their gameplay mechanism than they are by the content and presentation of the game. Tetris, another example, is completely defined by how it plays. It doesn't matter what color you make the bricks. Tetris is tetris.

Whereas a FPS or a side scrolling game is much more defined by the content of the game than it's gameplay mechanism (ie moving up and down left right and shooting) You can make thousands of side scrolling shooters or FPS that look nothing alike and you're free to experiment with all kinds of ideas, whereas with tetris as soon as you stray from the basic gameplay you either break it or it's no longer tetris. Calling one side scrolling shooter a clone of another is akin to saying all movies are rip offs of other movies because they all have actors and camera angles and scenes etc...

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 07:23 AM

It is not far off the bedroom coder fiercly protecting their 'secret game idea' when in truth the idea is worth little - it is the execution, polish, marketing, & above all its position in the marketplace that counts.

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

I say - 'Extremely well done to Dave', who i see as a fine example of a good BUSINESSMAN (not a term often associated with Indy developers - see rant above). The game was NOT readily available to the casual user (who far outnumbered the arcade/PS crowd) and he provided a game they wanted - fair play & well done for spotting a hole in the market.

Another great point. Good post!

svero

02-12-2005, 07:26 AM

I say - 'Extremely well done to Dave', who i see as a fine example of a good BUSINESSMAN

So then I take it that if I were to just make another Tropical Swaps with Snood like faces and release that next week you wouldn't have any objection? You'd gladly let me use the exact same gameplay mechanisms with only minor changes to look and feel? I suspect you might not be too happy if I did that. Am I wrong?

- S

PS : I really like tropical swaps. Very nicely implemented game. Beautiful presentation. Everyone take a look at it.

Dom

02-12-2005, 07:39 AM

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...
& Given the amount of effort we had to put in to balance the game (its amazing how un-random it has to be to feel random) I would wish you good luck! ;)

Tbh, as an original concept it's not doing very well - many people just don't get it. If there were more like it then I am confident that we would still be one of the best of the pack, and by expanding the market of this genre our sales would increase.

Who knows, you may even introduce some new concepts that we really like & would add to our sequels. We would still be 'the original' and we could happily use this as a marketing feature. You think Popcap worry about the bejewelled clones? Nope. It just means there are more people who will buy Bejewelled 2 as they are familiar with the gameplay.

I would even guess that the sales of Bust-a-Move 4 on the PS2 were up on previous versions, due in part to Snood introducing a whole new set of people to the game mechanic.

Ricardo C

02-12-2005, 07:41 AM

svero,

In all fairness, he was applauding Dobson for identifying an underserved market and exploiting it. I don't think the kudos would be as many had Dave undercut Taito with their own idea.

If someone cloned one of your games, but released it on a platform you had no presence in, would it bother you?

mahlzeit

02-12-2005, 07:45 AM

As far as the bedroom coder protecting a "secret idea" is concerned: there is a big difference between an idea and a set of (proven) gameplay mechanics. That's what game design is all about: taking an idea and turning it into a game. Hardly a trivial process.

Snood's gameplay rules are a lot closer to Puzzle Bobble's than Platypus is to R-Type. Of course, the exact distance is hard -- if not impossible -- to measure. (And who cares anyway... my clone is bigger than yours. :))

oNyx

02-12-2005, 07:53 AM

@DangerCode

Have you ever played R-Type? Ever finished it? You should really try it one day... it's pretty good :)

<edit>TBH my first *real* game will be also a clone. There is nothing wrong with that per se. I decided to do that, because I like the game and because there isn't a game like that for pc/mac (except one pretty bad flash version, which totally misses the point).

Snoop is also just a clone, whereas Platypus uses a well known genre. The former is a 1:1 carbon copy and the other one uses some ideas of the genre pool. That's the whole difference.</edit>

svero

02-12-2005, 08:00 AM

Well I've said many times that I don't really have a big problem with derivitive works. I think if someone wants to make asteroids again, but add rocks that you can only shoot on one side, then IMHO we're a little richer for it. I think Zuma was a good thing. It was much more fun and interesting than puzz loop. And probably my bar for how much should change is different than Anthony's.

However, that being said, I do believe Anthony has a point. There is a certain unscrupulous nature to cloning, and I think most of us probably have a level where we say to ourselves.. this game copies too much. This game is just a cheap rip-off of x.

luggage

02-12-2005, 08:06 AM

If someone cloned one of your games, but released it on a platform you had no presence in, would it bother you?You mean like Snood hitting the GBA before Puzzle Bobble did?

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 08:13 AM

@DangerCode

Have you ever played R-Type? Ever finished it? You should really try it one day... it's pretty good :)

Absolutely. It was one of the first games I owned on the TubroGrafx16. Great game.

Snoop is also just a clone, whereas Platypus uses a well known genre.

That sounds like special pleading to me.

svero

02-12-2005, 08:15 AM

Tbh, as an original concept it's not doing very well

If it played just like bejeweled but with the same level of presentation you put into swaps you'd now be making tons of cash!

princec

02-12-2005, 10:09 AM

There's more to a game than just the mechanics. Content is just as much an important distinguishing factor. Sometimes all there is to a game is the content, not the gameplay. Sometimes the gameplay is identical to some other game but with completely different graphics. Snood is Snood, and nothing else is quite the same as Snood that has come before or after. Platypus likewise.

But please get over bashing each other in public about it!

Cas :)

princec

02-12-2005, 10:11 AM

I think if someone wants to make asteroids again, but add rocks that you can only shoot on one side, then IMHO we're a little richer for it'Troid :) (Busy writing a review of it at the moment. But damn! It's a hard game!!)

Cas :)

DangerCode

02-12-2005, 11:14 AM

Snood is Snood, and nothing else is quite the same as Snood that has come before or after. Platypus likewise.

That seems like a perfectly fair assessment to me.

luggage

02-12-2005, 11:45 AM

That seems like a perfectly fair assessment to me.So now you agree that platypus isn't a clone? :confused:

KNau

02-12-2005, 01:43 PM

The argument regarding Platypus was that, whether you can name one specific inspiration or not, it uses all of the typical game mechanics of the games that preceded it without offering even one new idea to the genre. In itself that's no crime, unless the author starts hounding others about their lack of originality. I go back to my original point in that the only difference between "cloning" and "genre" is time and iterations, but regardless, whether we approve of Platypus or not is a petty issue and I regret going down that road.

While I will argue with Flack over the issue of clones I do absolutely agree with his point in the previous thread that the only thing he has really done is express his disapproval of Snood. I doubt the author of Snood is crying in his beer about that one. This whole argument has gotten out of hand.

On a final note (regarding professionals who post here) you'll notice that the level of success a person achieves is inversely proportionate to the amount of time they spend posting here. Food for thought - maybe less arguing and more game development should be going on.

papillon

02-12-2005, 02:51 PM

I really think most of the hoopla is just because the article made it sound like Snood came from nowhere rather than being clearly inspired by things that came before. This made people upset. I haven't really played R-Type OR Platypus so I am in no situation to make a judgement about exactly how similar they are, but clearly Platypus did not come from nowhere and create the entire genre of shooters on its own. If there were an article that implied that he had been the first person to think of flying around shooting stuff, many people would be upset. :)

I was a big snood fan. I eventually got tired of it, after playing it way too much for a couple of years. I still have not preferred any other version in the genre to that one, 'ugly' faces and all. I was sort of disappointed to find out it wasn't a Complete Innovation, just as I was sort of disappointed when I found out Zuma was heavily inspired by some obscure arcade game. I still like the *games* though. Haven't we been having this discussion elsewhere about how the game idea itself is not sacred, it's how you implement it?