New Biz Opportunity. Good or Bad?

[kys01212]

Hey guys,

This company called IBIS called me and said they have a biz opportunity for me. They have this web search tool bar for the internet explorer.

If I put their program in my demo game and if any body installs it. They would pay my company 10 cents for each install.

Have any of you guys tried this before? do you think it is a good idea?

thanks alot,

Kevin

[oNyx]

Spy-/adware is generally a bad idea and not new at all.

Are you really this naive or is this some kind of silly guerillia marketing?

[DGuy]

View this thread:

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=1839

It really hammers out the pros and (mostly) cons of such a setup.

HTH,
David

[kys01212]

alright, I made up my mind. I won't consider it ever.

I found this info on IBIS http://www3.ca.com/securityadvisor/pest/pest.aspx?id=453077909. it says it is a spyware.

Thanks alot guys. I suspect it could be spyware but i just wanted to make sure.

It won't hurt to ask, right?

thanks alot.

indie rocks

[z3lda]

On the optic of adware/spyware what do you guys think about:

http://games.zango.com/

From their website:

Is Zango spyware?

No. Zango is an application that provides a valuable revenue stream for software and online content publishers as a way of sponsoring that content and those applications – and continuing to make them freely available to consumers. We do not sneak aboard computers, and we do not collect any personally identifiable information. Our software simply delivers 2 to 3 targeted websites per day on average, as users are searching and shopping online. Without our sponsorship, dozens of websites and software applications would no longer be available to you for free on the Internet.

[Ricardo C]

Suree sounds like adware to me...

As for this part...

Without our sponsorship, dozens of websites and software applications would no longer be available to you for free on the Internet.

Do I laugh or do I cry?

[Coyote]

We do not sneak aboard computers, and we do not collect any personally identifiable information. Our software simply delivers 2 to 3 targeted websites per day on average, as users are searching and shopping online.

Oh, YEAH.

That's Adware. Same category as spyware, and just as bad. It's a class of parasitic software that brings their victim's computer's performance to their knees, sometimes absolutely ruining their ability to connect to the Internet altogether as they step all over each other to rewrite the Operating System's network handler, forcing a complete reinstall of your OS.

If you haven't been through that particular hell, you are lucky. For the authors and distributors of this leechware, there's probably a special place in hell reserved for them. It's a relatively minor hell that has Internet access, but only on 300 baud modems...

[luggage]

Always makes me laugh when they try and say adware isn't the same as spyware. Hello? The adware keeps track of your browsing habits, another word would be to 'spy' on what you do.

burn them all.

[z3lda]

Not to take over the thread, but I've also been recently and previously asked to package one of my games with this software. The first offer I blew away quickly, but the most recent one caught my attention becaues it was being offered by a very well known online publisher. I was surprised they would do this but why would they go out of their way and damage their name?

I'm seriously considering it because it is another revenue and right now I wouldn't mind seeing some cash flow generated from my games. I will mention it on my website as an alternative to paying for the game and make sure to put it in bold that it is adware.

[Itsme]

Actually, I just heard that Big Fish LLC now requires every buyer to have their bar installed - it just comes with the games they sell and you can't activate the game without it. Did not check it out myself yet, but looks like companies just want TOTAL control over folks who buy their games.

[Vectrex]

well... no more bigfish for me then.
Someone somewhere must have the world record for numbers of toolbars installed. They probably take up half their screen but they don't even notice :) Lucky I don't use IE

[mkovacic]

Not to take over the thread, but I've also been recently and previously asked to package one of my games with this software. The first offer I blew away quickly, but the most recent one caught my attention becaues it was being offered by a very well known online publisher. I was surprised they would do this but why would they go out of their way and damage their name?
That's the "large distribution oportunity" that I was talking about in the previous thread. Their site is live now, you can check it out at
http://www.freegamesvillage.com

[Anthony Flack]

Bigfish now? Sheesh. To hell with that crap. Who do they think they are, anyway?

When a company says "this isn't spyware", it seems very much like emails that say "this isn't spam!", and scam artists who proclaim "this isn't a pyramid scheme!".

Guaranteed it is.

[luggage]

And where do they think it's going to end?

A toolbar for each of Bigfish, Real, Popcap, etc, throw in a Steam type app for each retail publisher, your desktop will just be full of crud if you want to play a few games.

[luggage]

and this is what I was on about. About Zango Search thingy.

Gives you access to premium content and games for FREE
Ad supported business model which serves, on average, 2 to 3 advertisers' websites daily related to your surfing habits.
NO Spyware - all information is anonymous
Easy and COMPLETE uninstall using add/remove programs
Zango is an active member of COAST (Consortium Of Anti-Spyware Technology vendors)

So because the information is anonymous it's doesn't count as Spyware? You're still spying on what I do. I love the "on average, 2 to 3 advertisers' websites". Yeah. But how many adverts? how often? where are they shown? By on average what does that mean? Do you have a version that shows no adverts for you and your family that kills your 'average'?

And the Bigfish toolbar has Yahoo involved. Yuk. I installed Yahoo Messenger once but never again. Just could not get rid of it. It put Links to all sorts of Yahoo rubbish everywhere when I deleted them they'd just pop back.

Grrrr....

[Nonz]

I work as a computer tech during the day (pursuing my misguided belief that I can program at night) and the amount of systems I see that are practically crippled by "adware" and spyware is amazing. It doesn't matter what you call it or how you try to justify it the fact is the more you have the worse your computer suffers under the strain.

If it was just one or two different instances then maybe people would be able to put up with it but the sheer volume of parasite-ware out there means any program that tries to install it is going to hurt it's developer's reputation.

Of course there's a marketing oportunity there too...

"New Big Metal Balls of Doom... now with 50% less crud than other games."

:D

[FlySim]

My wife installed the Yahoo toolbar a couple of weeks ago.
Slowed her machine down to the point of being unusable.
I tried the standard removal stuff (Spybot & Adware) - no luck.
Had to bring out the big guns - safe mode and Hijack This.
I cant believe Yahoo would do this, but I will avoid them from now on.

[James C. Smith]

do you think it is a good idea?
Just say NO!

[kys01212]

yeah, I decided not to.

It did seem like a good revenue at first but considering it would seriously hurt a developer's reputation.

The risk is just too much:)

Kevin

[Vorax]

2. We include the Big Fish Games Toolbar and the Zango Search Assistant with your first FREE game.

:(

Why do I picture all the guys that run these sights with mullets and wearing 100% polyester, plad suits?

[Kaos]

As far as Big Fish Games, its even worse than you may think, BFG and Zango are partners.

Big Fish Games, (Paul Thelen & the gang) plan to release Magic Vines for Zango.com, in the near future with other titles soon to follow, apparently like any install there is a standard license agreement before install, then it adds yet another license agreement, basically stating that its ok that you will be getting alot of "shop at home popups, etc" the components of the Zango software are full of pop-up generating source coding.

Have had the priveledge to beta test for BFG in the past, and I blindly installed a games without even thinking they could be full of spy/ad ware. No more.

Also it isnt required to install the tool bar to buy a Big Fish Game, use of their tool bar entitles a person to 20 % off a game purchase, a great deal, if there is a price on freedom.

[picman]

As far as Big Fish Games, its even worse than you may think, BFG and Zango are partners.

Big Fish Games, (Paul Thelen & the gang) plan to release Magic Vines for Zango.com,

I am not sure where you get our info but here are a few facts:
1) BFG toolbar has NO adware and NO spyware...Period
2) BFG toolbar is 100% optional SEPERATE download from the games on our site
3) We are not "partnered" with Zango, and none of our games are on Zango. We co-sponsor the downloads on free games village with them. These games are "old non-revenue producing games" and allows developers to give them a second life and get paid for it. And yes, zango is adware and yes both it and our toolbar are bundled with the free games on free games village...that is how developers get paid and in Lage BOLD letters on the Free Games VIllage site it explains the 'penalty' they pay for getting the games for free.
4) Big Fish Games site has No ads, no adware, no spyware. not now or ever!

Whew! :o
OK You may all now flame away!

Paul Thelen
Big Fish Games

PS. I cut off my mullet months ago and polyester makes me itch ;)

[Coyote]

Paul: Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding with respect to BigFish.

I can't say I'm on board with the Zango thing. But I have problems with anything that piggybacks onto another program and runs all the time, even when the original application it came with is unused or uninstalled.

Question: Are the original authors of the games available on the Free Games Village required to "opt in" to be featured in Free Games Village lineup, or is this handled with their original contract with BigFish?

Thanks!

[Kaos]

hey sorry Paul, wish I had the url handy of where I found that gossip, glad to hear that there isnt any ad/spyware in your new tool bar. I really like Big Fish Games, games especially Mahjongg Towers II. For 20 % off, if there isnt any ad/spyware in the tool bar, I may just get it. If it seemed like I was flaming you, I am terribly sorry.

I wish you luck this year with a new game every day. As far as the "absolutely no adware/spyware" well.. I purchased the game, Breakball 2 some time ago and my spyware killer went nuts, seems there was an app that didnt have an uninstall that was trying to install, have any insight as to what that was?

[picman]

Paul: Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding with respect to BigFish.

Question: Are the original authors of the games available on the Free Games Village required to "opt in" to be featured in Free Games Village lineup, or is this handled with their original contract with BigFish?

Thanks!

The Free Games Village is a completely seperate business. Every game on it was done with a sperate agreement. We would never (and cannot legally) place a Big Fish Game title on Free Games Village wihtout a seperate agreement with the developer.

Cheers!

Paul

[Andy]

The site is obviously connected to Big Fish - at least by your toolbar being there Paul.
Adware or spyware that concrete piece of code this is very big question.

Saying honestly I don't see any reasonl what for you need this BS Paul. :confused:
Just imagine on a minute an article where your company will be connected to adware/spyware delivery around the software world, to spam delivery, to viruses delivery, to frauds around and what ever else... - you know how they articles appear - they should be laud to take back their returns.

Saying honestly I was shocked by such news from BF by yesterday. Isn't that still not clear that adware flame kills the shareware market?

Just my two cents...

[stanchat]

Actually, I just heard that Big Fish LLC now requires every buyer to have their bar installed - it just comes with the games they sell and you can't activate the game without it. Did not check it out myself yet, but looks like companies just want TOTAL control over folks who buy their games.

And it may be starting to turn them off. I was browsing the new games section at download.com and the users are not digging the toolbar so much.

http://www.download.com/Wild-West-Wendy/3640-7563_4-10384571.html

[ManuelFLara]

And it may be starting to turn them off. I was browsing the new games section at download.com and the users are not digging the toolbar so much.

http://www.download.com/Wild-West-Wendy/3640-7563_4-10384571.html

I think this kind of "promotion" is actually worse to developers (in this case Mystery Studio) to BFG since they're more tied to the game brand than some portal that has lots of games.

[cliffski]

And it may be starting to turn them off. I was browsing the new games section at download.com and the users are not digging the toolbar so much.

http://www.download.com/Wild-West-Wendy/3640-7563_4-10384571.html

Eeekkk... you couldnt hope for worse publicity. Its really NOT worth ANY deal that involves bundling ANYTHING with your product if you ask me...

[Mike Boeh]

Isn't it funny how the google toolbar is seen as useful (i bet most IE users here have it installed), but most other toolbars are blindly perceived as spyware? Clearly the BFG toolbar isn't spyware, it's just an alternative paul is using to try to retain site visitors. But it's that exact perception that has prevented me from trying similar methods to retain visitors to retro64.com :(

So that brings the obvious question: how do you retain visitors? Email is less and less effective, but it's the only accepted way.

[Sharpfish]

Eeekkk... you couldnt hope for worse publicity. Its really NOT worth ANY deal that involves bundling ANYTHING with your product if you ask me...

Although the "casual" end user has always been somewhat in the dark about webforms using their email addressses for "free screensavers" - clicking on Spam emails, and installing any and all crap they can find because it is "free" (adware/spyware), people are not stupid forever.. they learn. My sister is a classic example, her and her two young daughters were always installing toolbar X, free desktop Y, and "free" screensaver Z. After the 3rd time of completely reinstalling and optimising her system for her I had a chat about what she was doing and that it had to stop. Her system was slooow to the point of putting her off using it (on a fairly modern PC), she had viri and pop-ups coming out of her ears. Not a pretty sight.

This has now stopped (for the last 6 months) and she feels like she has a new PC. She is as "Non tech" or "casual" as you will find using PCs on the internet and she spreads the word to her similar friends to leave that crap alone!

The above 2 "reviews" for WWW are bad. If my sis (as a casual user) now saw the words "spyware" she wouldn't ever download it. Sure some people will, but it can only HARM the developers (again) while possibly increasing total revenue/income for the publisher/portal.

Spyware is never good - a few extra$$ is not really worth the long term damage to your games reputation... don't give in and don't let others turn your months of hard work in to a another of the millions of "infected" software that people are avoiding more and more.

[Sharpfish]

Isn't it funny how the google toolbar is seen as useful (i bet most IE users here have it installed), but most other toolbars are blindly perceived as spyware? Clearly the BFG toolbar isn't spyware, it's just an alternative paul is using to try to retain site visitors. But it's that exact perception that has prevented me from trying similar methods to retain visitors to retro64.com :(

The problem is perception. Even if the "spyware" in question is a harmless and well intended addition or even required feature to use as a central access point to all the portals' software (real arcade for instance) if word of mouth starts spreading that it is seen as spyware - then the damage is done. Of course there must be financial gains to it or they wouldn't risk it - they probably loose X% of "savvy" users but make up for it in repeat/extra income from the adware from the more tolerant people.

[Hamumu]

I love the google toolbar - but I CHOSE to install it. I looked at it, tried it out, and kept it. Bundled crap (especially hidden) is the problem, not things that exist in bar form (mmm, apple cores & chinese newspapers).

[papillon]

Has anyone made a nice shiny "100% Adware Free!" award/logo/organisation we can put up on our sites to reassure people? :)

[ManuelFLara]

I love the google toolbar - but I CHOSE to install it. I looked at it, tried it out, and kept it. Bundled crap (especially hidden) is the problem, not things that exist in bar form (mmm, apple cores & chinese newspapers).
That's the thing about spyware, that's installed whether you want or not. In the best case the installer displays a 'this is going to install SOME_OTHER_STUFF too, since it's required (LOL) to run this program', so you can choose to install both of them or none.

I also used the Google Toolbar. Now I use Firefox which has it built-in (sort of).

[electronicStar]

Isn't it funny how the google toolbar is seen as useful (i bet most IE users here have it installed), but most other toolbars are blindly perceived as spyware?
Simply because everybody knows that there is really very little chance that a company like google will try to abuse of their customers, and if they do it will mean the end of bnusiness for them. It's a question of trust. We know the other spyware companies are far from being as honest.


Clearly the BFG toolbar isn't spyware, it's just an alternative paul is using to try to retain site visitors. But it's that exact perception that has prevented me from trying similar methods to retain visitors to retro64.com :(

So that brings the obvious question: how do you retain visitors? Email is less and less effective, but it's the only accepted way.
Well... you don't try to retain visitors, visitors retain themselves is the site is of interest to them.
As someone said people are less and less naive and passing for a spammer is becoming more and more damaging for a business reputation, as is trying to force software on someone's computer.

[ErikH2000]

Simply because everybody knows that there is really very little chance that a company like google will try to abuse of their customers, and if they do it will mean the end of bnusiness for them. It's a question of trust. We know the other spyware companies are far from being as honest.
Yeah, I agree with the trust thing, which Google spent years gaining, but it's also about usefulness. And I gotta think Google is an amazingly special case because of it's usefulness. People on this board probably average something like 20 Google searches a day, so the quickness of entering a search without browsing to the site can be worth cluttering the screen a bit. I wouldn't even hope to make game-related toolbar. It's going to be used by X number of people and offend Y number of people. Y will be much greater than X, because who is really helped by a doodad like this?

The people that have the bar will have it by accident. I've never heard anybody say "I like Gator/Bonzibuddy/Zango/Whatever--It helps me find things." I teach computer classes to senior citizens sometimes. They come in and ask me what the hell happened to their computers, and complain how they never understand how things get installed on it.

-Erik

[Mike Boeh]

Well... you don't try to retain visitors, visitors retain themselves is the site is of interest to them.
As someone said people are less and less naive and passing for a spammer is becoming more and more damaging for a business reputation, as is trying to force software on someone's computer.

I believe your statement here is partially false.

Yes, content is ultimately what drives traffic, but it benefits from a vehicle to deliver it to the user. I can't think of a single major website that doesn't employ some method to help keep visitors. Are newsletters and rss feeds not artificial attempts to retain visitors?

I am totally opposed to spyware or anything that isn't specifically chosen by the user, but your statement here is just too broad.

[Sillysoft]

So that brings the obvious question: how do you retain visitors? Email is less and less effective, but it's the only accepted way.
RSS has still not hit the mainstream yet (compared to email it probably has a very small penetration), but it's gathering steam quickly. I can easily see it replacing email newsletters eventually. It's just like the difference between choosing to install the google toolbar and having some toolbar foisted on you. You always choose to subscribe to an RSS feed, it can't be foisted on you like an email newsletter.

[svero]

I agree with Mike. Techniques to retail visitors definitely help. It's especially true for sites that have periodic updates of content. I release a new game every 3-6 months. Someone might like my games but in the time between releases forgot about us. There's nothing to keep the customer coming back every day like web games etc.. Perhaps their should be but that's another issue. The point is that by providing somehting like a mail newsletter you gently remind customers of your existance. It's a way to get back in touch with people who don't have a need to surf your site every day as it's not constantly changing.

[gpetersz]

No I don't have Google toolbar installed, and no I do not want anything to sneak onto my PC on the back of any other programs.
I hope this business model will not work for long, though it might, but I HATE it.

I had to reinstall my PC 3 times in the past and for a year now I am very paranoid. I do not want anything to be on my PC just what I want to use.

What do people like? A movie without ads for $5 or a movie with ads (broken into 4 parts and being 25 minutes longer) for free?

[digriz]

If people really don't want spyware or these browser bars installing just get a spyware blocker.

Microsoft have one that is free and is really good. I'm not sure about Macs but there is probably software for them too.

At the end of the day, these browser bars that are installing can't automatically install themselves unless you agree to it. The agreement part is probably hidden in one of these click-past EULA's but maybe people shouldn't blindly click past these screens.

[Robert Cummings]

The issue isn't blocking them or avoiding them, but the untold damage to your reputation.

You'll lose the customer forever.

Ironic really, as some of these methods are for keeping them. So if you choose to have spyware installed with your game, you lose the customer, and they gain the customer.

That has got to be like you paying them more than they are paying you, and the real reason you should avoid bundling spyware - you're the loser.

[electronicStar]

I believe your statement here is partially false.

Yes, content is ultimately what drives traffic, but it benefits from a vehicle to deliver it to the user. I can't think of a single major website that doesn't employ some method to help keep visitors. Are newsletters and rss feeds not artificial attempts to retain visitors?

I am totally opposed to spyware or anything that isn't specifically chosen by the user, but your statement here is just too broad.
Sorry I didn't fully understand what you were talking about.
But my statement remains somehow true.
If you want to keep the visitor coming you must provide him with something to read: short stories, interesting and not centered only on videogames.And humour is a plus. They don't want to read a newsletter about monthly sales from your company or the next installment of match-3 that you want to offer them (that's just a general example, not an accusation).
Look a TIGS I keep going there to read their news although the games displayed aren't really my cup of tea, I don't know why, maybe it's the format of the page, the colors, etc...Anyway they don't need to bait me to go to their page.
But the format of their news help : small, expressing an opinion,with the personality of the news poster,etc...
Another example of a very popular website that doesn't need to go after the readers is something awful.
You have to make your show for the audience, don't talk them about what you want to sell, just entertain them.

[Nexic]

I think having your own toolbar, that people can *choose* to download, but don't have to have to play your games is a good thing. But when people are pretty much forced then they get annoyed.

[ErikH2000]

I think having your own toolbar, that people can *choose* to download, but don't have to have to play your games is a good thing. But when people are pretty much forced then they get annoyed.
It doesn't seem worth the risk to me. A lot of people have little clue what is going on with installations. They might install the extra components unknowingly, and then Spybot or Ad-aware starts squawking at them.

And really, just having the option shown in the installer is enough to give off negative vibes and lose a sale. If anything sends a bad signal by even hinting at spyware, then the demo will get uninstalled by some portion of potential customers. I base this on all the paranoid e-mails I get from players on all manner of issues. ("Is this form really secure? Opera says it isn't.", "I don't see a privacy policy, and why am I giving you my phone#?", "There's a spelling mistake on the order form--is this Plimus company legitimate?") For the ones I am lucky enough to hear from, I can usually calm them down and fix the issue to avoid future complaints. But then there are the other lost sales from people that quietly moved on because something set them ill at ease. Everyone is really sensitive out there! I guess if your game already isn't selling, then it might be a practical decision to bundle some adware with it for more revenue. But otherwise, why hobble your product by adding a red flag to it?

-Erik