Pornography, Smut and A Money Back Guaruntee

[Sunshine]

I was recently reading over diffrent sites while I was making a list of game 'types' [shumups,rts,fps, etc] and ran across a list called 'Top 10 Dead Game Genres' [please excuse the spelling] and anyway ALL the game types I had come up with were on that list...which got me thinking...What could I do that is outside the norm, that could get the attention of some potential customers....


Then I envisioned a game, totally pornographic in nature, devoid of any redeeming value at all, and blatently offensive to anyone that can possibly be offended[straight up, Emenim style! :eek: ]. A game with strong sexual content and marketed only for adults.

I remember some games kinda like this in the past, such as 'Leasure Suit Larry' in some ways. And also that game Sex-Olympics on the C64. Also on the C64, 'Farmer's Daughter' was somewhat sexual.

What do you guys think, Think there's room on the market for this type of game?

[oNyx]

Of course there is room for those games and the game itself can be also rather bad/boring and still sell pretty well.

However, things you need to think about:
-Piracy will be *much* higher.
-Does your host allow such stuff? (mine doesn't)
-You need content. If you know someone who runs some of those pages, it will be easier. Rendering is also fine. If hand drawn, pick manga style (hentai).
-Your image. Create a spin off company and/or (at least) a new site. Y'know Pulp Fiction? It's technically from *gasp* Disney.

Uh... and no, I don't have any experience with that stuff :rolleyes:

[Pyabo]

Uh... and no, I don't have any experience with that stuff :rolleyes:

But someone on this board does... which begs the question: Not-So-Anonymous Smut Peddler, why haven't you done a game like this? (or have you?) Seems like it would be right up your alley... And the marketing venues are dead obvious.

[Jack Norton]

I've thought about that. The best choice would be making a hentai game, with a plot, etc.
The problem: you need LOT of manga drawings, and they're expensive, unless you can draw them yourself (anyway take LONG time).

Seems not a viable solution for a shareware dev...

[formfarbeminze]

Seems not a viable solution for a shareware dev...
that's the point: shareware is not the right business model for those productions, even if it's game-like.

[EpicBoy]

I was recently reading over diffrent sites while I was making a list of game 'types' [shumups,rts,fps, etc] and ran across a list called 'Top 10 Dead Game Genres' [please excuse the spelling] and anyway ALL the game types I had come up with were on that list...which got me thinking...What could I do that is outside the norm, that could get the attention of some potential customers....
Well, for starters, who wrote this list? Was it someone credible, a journalist looking to fill his monthly writing quota, or a forum fanboy looking to complain about "games these days"?

[papillon]

There are plenty of adult games on the market, and plenty of not-entirely-adult games with adult content available ('nude patches')

We have the recent Singles (which apparently wasn't that good). We have the upcoming Playboy game. There's a new Leisure Suit Larry coming out, not in the genre of the original games but full of crude humor and, assumably, breasts.

There are a million Jiggly Breast hakpaks for Neverwinter Nights (and a few with male nudity geometry added as well, but jiggly breasts are more popular). I haven't played the Sims, but I get the impression there are nude skins for it.

There are countless numbers of small porny Flash/Java games on websites, and a smaller number for download. Usually humorous/cartoony or VERY DULL... strip poker or "Breakout where the bricks cover a naked photo" are painfully common. Generally the user doesn't buy these games individually, but they pay access to a website where they can play them.

There are many 3d 'games' where the actual gameplay is incredibly limited and mostly involves you rotating a nude 3d model and putting her through a few basic animation loops.

And then there are the limited-but-growing number of hentai games translated into English.

So I'm not quite sure what the question is. :)

[papillon]

Titillating not-quite-porn is really more fun anyway, imo. I have a wonderful idea for a just-slightly-adult game, but it would need more time and art available than I really have to put into it at the moment. Maybe someday. As long as dl.com isn't offended enough to refuse to list it, it should get downloaded like crazy!

(Actually, I have a brilliant idea for a very, very adult game as well... but don't have the programming skills necessary to pull it off right now.)

If you're making a game that's purely about porn, though, then you need some porn to pull it off with. Do you have a good source of original legal attractive naughty images? In a format that will make good games? (Still photographs tend to lead to boring games, like the aforementioned breakout/strip-poker.) If the pictures are not h0+ then who's going to be interested? I don't sell original hentai games because my art is not good enough and I know it and I couldn't possibly afford to pay someone who IS good enough.

Now, one thing you could try to do for publicity is to release a normal shareware game... and then make an adult patch for it, and flood warez'n'porn sites with that adult patch, revving up their curiosity so they have to get the game so they can plug the porn into it! Doesn't matter then if the patched-porn is crap, because you won't be held responsible for it in the same way....

[GBGames]

Recently the one-handed keyboard was released, although there are no drivers currently.

[Chris Evans]

Well you need to be careful that you don't get type-casted with these type of games if you intend to develop games in other genres later. As someone else mentioned, you're better off doing these type of games under another name.

[Sunshine]

But where's your dignity? :D

Hehe, funny, I think it left with my bank balance :eek:


Titillating not-quite-porn is really more fun anyway, imo. I have a wonderful idea for a just-slightly-adult game, but it would need more time and art available than I really have to put into it at the moment. Maybe someday. As long as dl.com isn't offended enough to refuse to list it, it should get downloaded like crazy!

This is more like what I've seen in the past, and those titles were pretty popular.

However I was thinking of a game kinda like the Sims (the one player, the first one) Except called 'The Sins', in which you run a whore-house. Kinda like Grand Theft Auto was to car theft, this would be to prostitution. True though, I'm not sure if it could be done share-ware.

[Applewood]

(Actually, I have a brilliant idea for a very, very adult game as well... but don't have the programming skills necessary to pull it off right now.)

Sounds like the game I want to make, too. I've kb'd it for a while until I can get the mesh<->mesh collision and IK stuff sorted out :eek:

lmao

[mrFantasy]

Titillating not-quite-porn is really more fun anyway, imo. I have a wonderful idea for a just-slightly-adult game, but it would need more time and art available than I really have to put into it at the moment...

If you're making a game that's purely about porn, though, then you need some porn to pull it off with. Do you have a good source of original legal attractive naughty images? In a format that will make good games? (Still photographs tend to lead to boring games, like the aforementioned breakout/strip-poker.) If the pictures are not h0+ then who's going to be interested? ....

I have wanted to develop adult games for years. I have the exact opposite problem...I produce high quality original legal erotica in multiple formats (wma, mpeg, avi, jpg, DVD, VHS, etc...) but I do not have the programming skills to develop a game.

If this post sparks an interest, let me know.

[Jim Buck]

I've always had the feeling that a very well-done pornography game - something more pornographic than Leisure Suit Larry - would sell like hotcakes. There were a ton of "adult" games released when cd-roms came into their own, but they were always just pre-filmed movies with some UI on top of it. But I think a full-blown interactive (not pre-rendered/-filmed) game would at least get a ton more downloads than the average "normal" game.

There was a guy that posted on here that does a chess game with very explicit animations. (The chess pieces were naked people that would have sex as certain moves were combined.) I always wondered how well it sold.

[Ryan Clark]

I think the guys who made "Love Chess" are doing pretty well with it:

(EDIT: Link removed.)

It looks like it's a clone of the old "Battle Chess" but with more... err... interesting battles :o

[Coyote]

Well, moral considerations aside (and my own moral considerations would be considerable...)

There's a ton of smut available freely all over the web right now. Or for a small charge. So what was once kinda secret, controversial and tantalizing is now all over the place. So what would a game offer over all that? With a zillion naughty Flash games or whatnot... it's doubtful your game would generate any greater publicity.

So nowadays we have people making games where you get to play Lee Harvey Oswald to generate controversy.

I can't say I'm a fan.

[mrFantasy]

There's a ton of smut available freely all over the web right now. Or for a small charge. So what was once kinda secret, controversial and tantalizing is now all over the place. So what would a game offer over all that? With a zillion naughty Flash games or whatnot....
I don't know...possibly the same offered by another "space shoot 'em up"


it's doubtful your game would generate any greater publicity.
I'm not interested in publicity, just more and varied content to provide an ever growing, already large, loyal and hungry fan base.

So nowadays we have people making games where you get to play Lee Harvey Oswald to generate controversy.
I will use your comment:

I can't say I'm a fan.
Morality is a strange thing...I think a little eroticism is a much better thing than gun fights in dirty city streets.

Sorry if I offend. ;)

[george]

We all must remember that there are children/teenagers on this forum also... The moderators are quick to lock threads about war, maybe they should do the same to threads about pornography... I suppose discussions about pornography in games are ok (but distasteful). However, I see a link to a website that contains some very graphic screenshots, thus directly exposing kids on this forum to sexual images... NOT ACCEPTABLE (IMHO).

[Jim Buck]

And what about the links to websites that have ultra-violent, bloody games?

(Just playing devil's advocate, really. :) )

[papillon]

Locking threads that are already en route to a flamewar is hardly the same thing as attempting to put ourselves in the place of internet censors. Should we lock all threads about programming because they MIGHT contain links to tools that kids MIGHT use to make viruses with? :)

This forum is not intended to be a babysitting pen. Obviously anyone linking to hardcore imagery with no warning as a prank would be trolling and would be appropriately deleted. But if you want to stop people from talking about games, then, well, what's the point of being here? :)



There's a ton of smut available freely all over the web right now. Or for a small charge. So what was once kinda secret, controversial and tantalizing is now all over the place. So what would a game offer over all that?


Well, a game that wasn't crap would be one thing. :) Most porn games are boring and not well made, because they can get away with it. And most porn games are, as mentioned, the same handful of dull flash poker/breakout/sliderpuzzle over and over again with slightly different pictures. There's quite a lot that hasn't been done.

How *did* that naked chicks on bikes game do?

Sadly, even the playboy game, which sounded like it was going to be an interesting simulation game with some boobies on top, supposedly turned out rather half-assed (from the reviews; I don't have a copy) and all the girls looked too much alike. If you're trying to sell a game on hot chicks, you need to HAVE HOT CHICKS! Silly people.

[Chris Evans]

We all must remember that there are children/teenagers on this forum also...


We have children reading this forum? I thought this was a forum for business-minded professionals. We're almost all adults here (with maybe a couple of teenagers here and there), so I don't think there's a need to "protect the children!!" with every topic we make. If a thread bothers you, just ignore it.



However, I see a link to a website that contains some very graphic screenshots, thus directly exposing kids on this forum to sexual images... NOT ACCEPTABLE (IMHO).


If you're referring to Love Chess, it's not just some random smut someone posted. It's a good example of an actual game with pornographic elements, so it's highly appropriate and perfectly relevant to this topic.

One of things I like about this forum is that we can for the most part discuss controversial topics in a mature manner with it spiraling into a flame war and personal insults (that war topic being one of the few exceptions).

[Chris Evans]

How *did* that naked chicks on bikes game do?



It did horrible. I think the name was BMX XXX?

The gameplay wasn't so hot and I think the naked girls on bikes just came off as a cheap gimmick. It got panned in reviews and it seems players didn't go for it much either.

Dead or Alive Volleyball (which actually doesn't contain any nudity) did much better. It actually appealed to women a little bit as well because of the Barbie "dress-up" element.

[Ricardo C]

We all must remember that there are children/teenagers on this forum also... The moderators are quick to lock threads about war, maybe they should do the same to threads about pornography... I suppose discussions about pornography in games are ok (but distasteful). However, I see a link to a website that contains some very graphic screenshots, thus directly exposing kids on this forum to sexual images... NOT ACCEPTABLE (IMHO).

Where are these children?

EDIT: Ah, crap. Chris beat me to it.

[Ryan Clark]

I apologize if my linking to Love Chess offended anyone, but I do feel that it was pretty on topic. If people want to avoid suggestive imagery, why would they read a thread with "pornography" in the title?

Anyway, I'll edit my post to remove the link; it's not worth arguing over.

[george]

wow you guys are really combative. if i insulted anyone, i apologize, it was not intentional. this wasn't directed to any single person, it was directed to all of us (including me). and i almost GUARANTEE you that there is a substantial amount of 12 and 13 year olds (maybe even younger) reading this forum. after all, it's the dream of many kids to make video games, as you all know, so don't be cynical about kids being on this forum.

and my point was that maybe we should have some sort of etiquette with this kind of material. for example, don't post direct links to adult or graphic material. when i clicked on the link and saw those screen shots, i was amazed by how graphic and sexual they were. i certainly wouldn't appreciate it if my kids were exposed to sexual images on a website that was about making games.

sure if it insults me i can ignore it, but a kid most likely won't ignore it. and these images aren't like explosions or bodies blowing up in a video game, they were detailed images of REAL sexual acts. even if they were cartoon-like (which they aren't), it is still very strong sexual imagery that is inappropriate for any kid...

there are lots of posts on this forum about legality, privacy, law, etc. when creating an account here, i never saw any warnings that there might be adult content here or anything of that sort (though there might have been a warning and i didn't see it).

i know my comments might be overkill, but i had to speak up, and believe there is at least some legitimate validity to them...

[Ryan Clark]

Nothing combative here, George. You made your point, link is removed, no harm done!

[Ricardo C]

wow you guys are really combative. if i insulted anyone, i apologize, it was not intentional. this wasn't directed to any single person, it was directed to all of us (including me). and i almost GUARANTEE you that there is a substantial amount of 12 and 13 year olds (maybe even younger) reading this forum. after all, it's the dream of many kids to make video games, as you all know, so don't be cynical about kids being on this forum.

You can "almost guarantee"? Sorry, not good enough. If I restricted my words and actions due to the POTENTIAL for someone being offended, I'd never even get out of bed in the morning.

Besides, this isn't a hobbyist site. Kids are not the target demographic, as far as I know. And I'd wager that any teen over the age of 15 has already seen worse than Love Chess' screenshots.


and my point was that maybe we should have some sort of etiquette with this kind of material. for example, don't post direct links to adult or graphic material.

How about "if you are offended by adult/sexual content, don't click on links that explicitly say 'hey, here's a look at an adult-themed game'"?


when i clicked on the link and saw those screen shots, i was amazed by how graphic and sexual they were. i certainly wouldn't appreciate it if my kids were exposed to sexual images on a website that was about making games.

1. It's your responsibility to exercise discretion when clicking links provided by third parties.

2. Why were your hypothetical kids surfing the internet unsupervised?


sure if it insults me i can ignore it, but a kid most likely won't ignore it. and these images aren't like explosions or bodies blowing up in a video game, they were detailed images of REAL sexual acts. even if they were cartoon-like (which they aren't), it is still very strong sexual imagery that is inappropriate for any kid...

Wait, wait, wait... So bodies blowing up are acceptable, but sexual acts aren't? ;)


there are lots of posts on this forum about legality, privacy, law, etc. when creating an account here, i never saw any warnings that there might be adult content here or anything of that sort (though there might have been a warning and i didn't see it).

The warning was implicit in the title of the thread, and the text accompanying the link. Was further warning really needed???


i know my comments might be overkill, but i had to speak up, and believe there is at least some legitimate validity to them...


Jebus, George. No one posted a full frontal hardcore shot in the middle of the thread. A link was provided with sufficient warning as to the nature of the product in question.

[papillon]

... personally, I *do* feel that the level of violence in some video games is FAR more offensive and damaging to children than any amount of sexual content, which kids generally *will* ignore if they're not old enough to be interested... I'm not arguing that we should post links to every strip poker game on the net or anything, but I will protest if you try to tell me that shooting people in the head is better. :)

[Coyote]

Hey, I won't argue - I'm not a fan of the increased amount of gore and violence in videogames, either.

I'm not one of those folks who believes that playing GTA can turn you into a psychopathic prostitute-beating monster, but I don't believe that constant exposure to graphic, realistic violence is in any way healthy - especially for kids.

[Abscissa]

and these images aren't like explosions or bodies blowing up in a video game, they were detailed images of REAL sexual acts.
Oh my god! Someone replace the link to sexual acts with a link to disemberments! QUICK! :rolleyes:

[Abscissa]

Hey, I won't argue - I'm not a fan of the increased amount of gore and violence in videogames, either.Until the original Mortal Kombat games can be regarded as "not particularly violent in comparison to today's games", I have trouble considering the violence in games to be "increasing"...

But I'm just nitpicking anyway (and kinda offtopic), so pay no attention to this crazy guy in the corner ;)

[mrFantasy]

Well....now that I got you guys all stirred up, back to the original intent of my post.

If any of you have a suggestion for how a *cough*..."pornographer" :o might go about developing an adult game, I'd be very interested in hearing from you. My idea involves a VR type game with original video content shot specifically for the game. It would target a niche of erotica fans that prefer a sexy "mature" woman (a large, still somewhat unexploited crowd...and they do not mind paying for what they like). If you are interested in a look at my "star performer", let me know...(I won't leave a link in this post).

Thanks for the opportunity to post, you guys have much more class than the
members on boards I typically have to deal with.

[Jim Buck]

How *did* that naked chicks on bikes game do?

I assume you are referring to "Naked Chicks on Bikes" (http://web.archive.org/web/20031228153100/http://www.nakedchicksonbikes.com/)?

I know this guy though I haven't had contact with him for about a year. Last I knew, this game didn't sell well at all, but I think it's because he didn't really promote it in the channels necessary to get the exposure. Plus, he lost interest in game development and has moved on to something else.

As for having links to explicit games, like others have said, these messageboards are about people serious about making games as a business.. these aren't the GameDev.net forums.. therefore, I think it's perfectly acceptable to have such links, especially in a thread specifically discussing this. Hell, outside of America, there are commercials selling shampoo on tv with naked women in them. (I had seen them in Poland.) *Perfectly* acceptable and normal in cultures outside of the U.S. (Not everywhere, but you get my meaning.)

Keeping in mind that more than just U.S. people access these forums...

[svero]

... personally, I *do* feel that the level of violence in some video games is FAR more offensive and damaging to children than any amount of sexual content

I've always found it an interesting comment on western ethics and morals that violence is generally accepted but nudity and sex of any kind is seen as an abomination.

[Abscissa]

I've always found it an interesting comment on western ethics and morals that violence is generally accepted but nudity and sex of any kind is seen as an abomination.
I've found that odd as well...and I live in the US. :/

[Abscissa]

Hell, outside of America, there are commercials selling shampoo on tv with naked women in them. (I had seen them in Poland.) *Perfectly* acceptable and normal in cultures outside of the U.S. (Not everywhere, but you get my meaning.)
I can imagine how crazy we must look to the rest of the world after the fuss that was made over last year's Super Bowl... :(

[svero]

I can imagine how crazy we must look to the rest of the world after the fuss that was made over last year's Super Bowl... :(

It does. It looks totally insane. You know how people look at Afghanistan when it was run by the Taliban, and read some article about how they beat some guy up and through him in prison for listening to music or some other meaningless offense? It looks roughly irrational like that.

[Jim Buck]

My wife is from Poland, and she finds it extremely crazy what we get all up in arms about. She saw the Super Bowl last year, and for her it was a non-incident. (For me too, but that's a different thing. :) )

[Alex]

Well....now that I got you guys all stirred up, back to the original intent of my post.

If any of you have a suggestion for how a *cough*..."pornographer" :o might go about developing an adult game, I'd be very interested in hearing from you. My idea involves a VR type game with original video content shot specifically for the game. It would target a niche of erotica fans that prefer a sexy "mature" woman (a large, still somewhat unexploited crowd...and they do not mind paying for what they like). If you are interested in a look at my "star performer", let me know...(I won't leave a link in this post).

Thanks for the opportunity to post, you guys have much more class than the
members on boards I typically have to deal with.

*cough* porn stars. Why not create a game using a lucas arts style adventure interface, the "plot" being that you are a famous actor, and you have been filmed by the paparazzi in a variety of incriminating situations with a variety of "ladies of the night". You get a tape in the mail with a request for some money, blackmail basically, and you get to watch the tape. Then you follow a trail of tapes to find out what is really going on... You get to watch a lot of tapes, and finally you manage to catch the guy who did it, or something cheesey like that. But you get to watch a lot of pron. Those kinds of games would probably work well as a incentive to sign up to some of those blasted pay sites that I know nothing about... *cough*

[Dan MacDonald]

Lets keep this thread closer to the discussion of possibly market potential of "erotic" games and less about the morality of said games. The morality issue is real one that lends itself to all out flame war. I'm happy to let the thread continue as long as it remains professional and business focused. If people can't handle that it will have to be shut down.

I honestly think if your so desperate to make money that you have to capitolize on pornographic material to sell a game then you really arn't acting as an indie developer. It's not that I dont see games having a place in the erotic industry, but as an indie the thing I value the most is building my own IP and making games I Think are cool. If it was just about money then I would do arkanoid quest or something along those lines. I guess I see an erotic game in the same category, more entrepenural then indie. I guess the other alternative is to bundle spyware. What I would really like to see is people making better games that convert well as opposed to turning to alternative gimmicks to get sales.

Thats my take on it, I realize everyone may not feel the same and that's why i'm fine with seeing this thread continue as long as it stays on a professional level (as opposed to a personal one)

[Ricardo C]

but as an indie the thing I value the most is building my own IP and making games I Think are cool. If it was just about money then I would do arkanoid quest or something along those lines. I guess I see an erotic game in the same category, more entrepenural then indie.

Why must the terms "enteprenaurial" and "indie" be mutually exclusive? I'm an indie because I believe the retail development and publishing industry is broken and will always screw the developer over. To me, being an indie means the freedom to work on what I want, when I want, and with whom I want, and just as all the risks are mine to take, so too are the potential profits. And if someone gets those profits by catering to the market, then more power to them. Working on something I think is cool and then getting on my knees and praying the market agrees sounds like a dangerous way to run a business. I'd rather work on something I think is cool and that I know has a market ;)

[BongPig]

Dan, we're all led by the market by some degree. How many of us make the games we want without considering what sells first? And if any do work this way, how many have made any money? So the indie argument is only half-harted.
So on the one hand its -
Be indie. Make the games you want to make.
... and on the other you can get critisised for not investigating your market first.

Personally... to be honest... I like porn AND games.... quite a bit actually.
BUT, I have no interest at all in pornographic games. One or the other for me thanks!
I suspect the market for games like this isnt games players at all. People who are outright into porn only may well be interested. All speculation of course.

On a side note, we shouldnt care if anybody posts a link of any offensive material on this forum. This is the internet after all. Any young people could easily type 'sex' into Google and get a whole heap of stuff. Lets not believe that we hold the key to saving anybody (young or old) from anything. We dont.

[svero]

There are advantages to keeping the forum "clean" as it were. Specifically that this forum could be a good resource for people interested in games, indie development, online marketing etc... who are not necessarily accessing the internet from home. That is to say.. it might be a site you want people to be able to access from a highschool, a university, a public library and so on. Many of those institutions have filters and I think it would be a shame if the site got filtered out. There's no particular need to post explicit material here, so, while I'm anything but a puritan, I would be in favor of limiting that for the reasons I've stated.

However I don't think the issue of morality is one that necessarily should be excluded from this topic, because it's relevant. If you want to sell a game in the US where laws are a little screwy because of the societies morality then there are implications that can affect you as a developer. So I think that part of the discussion is relevant. I would however agree that we don't really want the thread to degenerate into a christian fundamentalist vs. porn distribution and first amendment rights debate. That would definitely be endless, pointless, and of no use to anyone here.

[papillon]

I think Alex has a good idea about a way to mix in adult video into a decently playable game. I just recently finished playing through Missing:Since January (or In Memoriam depending on where you live) and the entire game structure is just "Complete shockwave puzzle, get to watch video". The video clips in this case being, of course, a vaguely occult Europe-traveling murder mystery thing.

You could easily make such a thing with sex video clips.

Given that (I think) adventure games sell better in Europe anyway, you could even make a softcore game of this and try to get it sold openly in the adventure market instead of restricting it to porn sites.

I'd probably do a story about a mystery in a sex-android warehouse - abandoned robot warehouses make perfect places to set puzzle games.

[Diragor]

Back to the topic of marketability of adult games, I think the way to go is the softer stuff like Leisure Suit Larry and The Guy Game. Why? You're in a niche market without a lot of high-quality competition but you can still use a lot of mainstream distribution channels and get mainstream press (possibly a LOT of mainstream press - look at The Guy Game). I swear, you make a very good game like that with really hot girls and you'll clean up. Larry may be the only (arguably) good game/series I've ever seen in the adult-but-not-really-porn arena. I've read very mixed reviews of The Guy Game, that BMX thing was a disaster, and ...

does anybody remember a PC game from a couple years ago that featured FMV female fighters in bikinis? It was like Bikini Karate Babes or something like that. (I can't look it up right now.) I grabbed the demo and it was not good at all. The FMV was OK I suppose but the whole thing was low res, the backgrounds were not good, the fighting mechanics were bad - overall pretty bad, but it sold like crazy. I remember reading an interview with the head honcho at that place where he talked about the pre-orders being through the roof.

[Jim Buck]

Something I forgot to mention yesterday in regards to the U.S. "oddness" when it comes to this stuff. (It's not meant to be flame-causing - just a fact that I find so funny because of it's paradoxness.)

It is:

You have to be 18 to perform in a porno movie, but you have to be 21 to view said movie.

?!?!?

[Abscissa]

Something I forgot to mention yesterday in regards to the U.S. "oddness" when it comes to this stuff. (It's not meant to be flame-causing - just a fact that I find so funny because of it's paradoxness.)

It is:

You have to be 18 to perform in a porno movie, but you have to be 21 to view said movie.

?!?!?

YES!! I've always wondered that too :) Although... it's only 21 in some locations. I'm almost certain that here in Ohio it's 18 for both performing and buying/watching.

[Applewood]

There's loads of those though.

Dunno about the US, but here in the UK it was (until recently) ok to rent a porn movie on a Sunday, but not ok to buy a bible.

[BongPig]

You have to be 18 to perform in a porno movie, but you have to be 21 to view said movie.

Are you serious!?
Thats really quite funny.
Man, if I were a comedian, I would live in the states. Its a goldmine of good content! :D

[BongPig]

Dunno about the US, but here in the UK it was (until recently) ok to rent a porn movie on a Sunday, but not ok to buy a bible.

haha! :D
... or maybe ill just stay where I am!

[Abscissa]

There's loads of those though.

Dunno about the US, but here in the UK it was (until recently) ok to rent a porn movie on a Sunday, but not ok to buy a bible.
Wow, that's hilarious. Here in the US, there are restrictions on Beer/Wine sales on Sundays (not completely prohibited, but there are restrictions), but that's about it. Although I have to ask: Why a restriction on buying Bibles?...And why Sunday, for that matter? (Seems like the least likely day to disallow Bible sales)


Man, if I were a comedian, I would live in the states. Its a goldmine of good content! Oh man, you have no idea how much there is... (I guess THAT's why the original immigrants used to say "the streets are paved with gold" ;) )

[Applewood]

Before they repealled all the Sunday trading laws, you could rent anything you like, but couldn't actually *buy* anything at all.

[gpetersz]

One should be careful with the thought that "sex sells anything".
Yes, it probably brings in some extra income, but not for long periods.
Ubi Soft just released Playboy: The mansion, a sims like but more erotic game. It's got very bad reviews from computer magazines. (so as the Larry follower)

The game should be good enough in itself to attract people, then can you spice it with erotics. On the other hand erotic will bring in some adult (and teen) customers but probably will keep off a great deal of other people.

I thought about it myself as well, but I droped the idea.

[Jim Buck]

Hmmm, sounds like Ohio is more liberal than any part of the U.S. I've been to. :) I also came across many strange liquor laws, usually in regards to Sunday or buying after 9pm, in both NY and CA. Too much weirdness here that is just not present in places of Europe that I've been to. (Then again, they have their own wackiness too. :) )

[Alex]

Ok so the morality of the issue keeps cropping up. As far as selling the games goes, I'm sure you'll be able to get a tie-in with a porn site somewhere, theres billions of them, so a royalty arrangement would probably be moderately easy to find... But as far as morality goes, sure, you'll be making money off people's weaknesses... You'll never be able to tell your folks about it, and when your game is featured in the newspaper because some kid got hold of it, well, you'll never be able to look people in the eye again. You will also burn in hell for all eternity and...

Back on topic, I think that the sex-game industry is alive and well in japan, I've seen reviews on somethingawful.com about them, but I never really looked into the subject until I saw it here :)

[Dan MacDonald]

@BongPig: I don't think entrepreneurial and indie are mutually exclusive. However the difference I put between an entrepreneur and indie is that an entrepreneur doesn't really care about what business or market he is targeting, as long as he thinks it's a market he can reach and make a profit in. An entrepreneur’s passion is for building the business (and eventually having a liquidity event in most cases). I see an indie as someone who's passion is more targeted at the product they are creating, someone who is passionate about what they are creating.

We are all influenced by the market to some extent, this is true. To create a game entirely in a vacuum would be more like an act of artistic expression. However when I see people who bundle addware with their games or rely on gimmicks like porn or gambling to make money with a game. I see a focus on making money that far superseeds the desire to make great games. At that point the world indie doesn't really have any meaning when used to describe the individual. Even if they are "independent" they really aren’t taking advantage of that freedom to create great games.

Anyone can call themselves indie, even the guy making money hand over fist on porn games. I'm not trying to define indie as one thing or another, but rather speak to the ideal or principle behind being an "indie".

[svero]

However when I see people who bundle addware with their games or rely on gimmicks like porn or gambling to make money with a game. I see a focus on making money that far superseeds the desire to make great games.

Someone could potentially be passionate about making the best erotic sex game possible. It's all about intent. I believe the creator of the original liesure suit larry games wasn't selling a gimmick but rather some pretty clever design and humour that still holds up pretty well today. Just because a game has some adult oriented content doesn't mean its purely a money making gimmick.

[Dan MacDonald]

Someone could potentially be passionate about making the best erotic sex game possible. It's all about intent.

Certainly, the issue is shrouded in shades of grey. However the general progression I observe (and yes this is a generalization) is developers who fail to create games that people want to buy, turn to gimmicks to sell their games as opposed to just making better games or finding untapped markets to make their games for. I just don't know any developers with the noble intent of making "the best damn vector for spyware ever created". It generally starts out with making games, seeing lackluster sales and then resorting to addware to see some ROI.

[Derek Yu]

Certainly, the issue is shrouded in shades of grey. However the general progression I observe (and yes this is a generalization) is developers who fail to create games that people want to buy, turn to gimmicks to sell their games as opposed to just making better games or finding untapped markets to make their games for. I just don't know any developers with the noble intent of making "the best damn vector for spyware ever created". It generally starts out with making games, seeing lackluster sales and then resorting to addware to see some ROI.

Dan, I agree with you that indie game developers should strive to achieve that "ideal" principle that you mentioned. However, is searching for a niche and then targetting that market really different from "turning to gimmicks"? If you're looking for a market first, and then thinking about the game design, you're already compromising something. That is, you may not be adding a naked lady to your game, you're adding other features that you think the niche would want, rather than what you want.

And besides that, successful companies add gimmicks to their games all the time. Gimmicks can be good, they can be innovative. Does adding minigames to a game really make the game better? Or special outfits? Developers need something to put in that "Special Features!" section on their website, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just make sure the basic game is solid first.

Just two cents from a newb. *runs and hides* :o

[Ricardo C]

I'm not trying to define indie as one thing or another, but rather speak to the ideal or principle behind being an "indie".

How is that not an attempt to define indie as one thing or another? When you try to define "indie" on emotional/moral/ethical terms, you're limiting the freedom you're trying to defend.

I would agree that adding a "sex" element to an otherwise unrelated game reeks of "gimmick", but what if someone just really enjoys erotica and wants to make product for like-minded people?

[Dan MacDonald]

Dan, I agree with you that indie game developers should strive to achieve that "ideal" principle that you mentioned. However, is searching for a niche and then targeting that market really different from "turning to gimmicks"?

A lot of this is semantics, but allow me to clarify. I suppose the indie ideal is one where the creator creates what they love without any influence of business or materialism. Somewhat similar to the artistic ideal. But these are ideals, and by definition they are a concept, something that cannot truly be realized. Striving to realize ideals is like reaching for the stars. Just because we cannot actually touch a star with our feet firmly planted on the surface of the earth doesn't make the stars any less valid or real. The same can be said of ideals, just because they are not actually realized does not make them any less valid a concept or idea.

In a practical reality, I think our goals (not necessarily our ideals) are to create our own games 24/7. In order to reach those goals we must find the place where our ideals and practical reality intersect. This is one of the reasons why it is so difficult for the IGF to come up with a really good set of requirements for the competition. How do you separate indie games from other games with imperical methods? Is it budget? is it publishers? Size? All of these things can find clear exceptions. Most of the developers who frequent these forums consider themselves "indie", this has come to bear the connotation of those people who want to make their own games but also want to make money from their games. While this may be a type of archetype for "indie" developers it doesn't really capture the "indie ideal" that permeates all types of media.

@Ricardo C: When I say I'm not trying to define "indie", I mean I'm not trying to define who is and who isn't an indie, in terms of developers who are trying to make their own games and make a living. I think the only person who can judge that is the developer themselves. As stated above, it's really about intent and it is up to the individual to be a judge of their own intent. While there is always debate on what an ideal is, generally people understand the "indie" ideal to be one where the artist does what the want in the absence of commercial or market driven pressure. That's why indie has long been associated innovation and festivals like sundance etc have sprung up. Interestingly enough, even in movies and music "indie" has gotten really complicated. The major studios have "indie" labels. Even Disney has one!

I think it somewhat parallels was the developers in these forums try to achieve, a level of freedom to make their own decisions but still guided by a desire to make some money at the same time.

[papillon]

Much like our earlier discussion about "selling out", it's hard to put any set rules on what does and doesn't seem like a money-over-independent-heart decision. Someone slapping together a lazy "match the pictures of naked girls!" game is *probably* using a cheap gimmick to get money for a bad game... but maybe their real motivation was to have an excuse to get girls to pose for them and the game's profits weren't really important, a whole different kettle of fish. :)

There's also the "I can do better than that!" motivation, which I'm sure many of us have felt at some point. When faced with crap, don't you sometimes have the urge to show them how it SHOULD be done? :)

And, of course, there's the whole bishoujo market, in which I would definitely be making games if I could afford the artwork (and hope to someday) - that's not just sex, it's art! (Well, it varies. Some is highly story-driven and emotional, some is quick-and-easy pointless sex. It's a wide genre.)

[svero]

Much like our earlier discussion about "selling out", it's hard to put any set rules on what does and doesn't seem like a money-over-independent-heart decision. Someone slapping together a lazy "match the pictures of naked girls!" game is *probably* using a cheap gimmick to get money for a bad game... but maybe their real motivation was to have an excuse to get girls to pose for them and the game's profits weren't really important, a whole different kettle of fish. :)

Svero scribbles furiously in notebook....

[Abscissa]

And besides that, successful companies add gimmicks to their games all the time. Gimmicks can be good, they can be innovative. Does adding minigames to a game really make the game better? Or special outfits? Developers need something to put in that "Special Features!" section on their website, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just make sure the basic game is solid first.I think I'd have to agree with that in a low of ways. The line between "gimmick" and "innovative feature" is blurry and worn. Nintendo is full of examples illustrating how difficult it can be to make the distinction.


Svero scribbles furiously in notebook....Can I get a xerox of your notes...? ;)

[Ricardo C]

Papillon's post reminded me of two porn-themed graphic adventures I played once. Both were Japanese, and I abandoned them both once the more unsavory elements that seem to permeate the Japanese adult market made themselves visible. But despite such elements, they games were actually quite well made, and show that it is possible to make adult games that are neither collections of random smut with a weak "game" holding them together, nor mainstream games with some T&A thrown in.

One was called Paradise Heights. You play a student looking after an apartment building owned by your uncle. Of course, the apartments are all occupied by gorgeous women, and the goal of the game is to seduce every one of them. The creeepy factor set in once your cousin moves in, and not only are you expected to seduce her, she's drawn in such a way that she looks 12. Great game up to that point, good atmosphere, bye bye now.

The other was Nocturnal Illusions. In it, you play a stranded motorist who wakes up in a mountaintop mansion. As you interact (and, of course, seduce) the other occupants, you discover you are all dead, the Mansion is a "waiting room" of sorts. I stopped playing it once the protagonist meets up with a little girl dressed like Red Riding Hood and sex is supposed to ensue. Blah. If it's not tentacles, rape, or tentacle rape, it's underage characters that ruin hentai for me. But, again, EXCELLENT atmosphere, and the game had me caring about the characters, and seriously worrying about what would happen to them if I found a way to leave the Mansion without them.