How to keep up...

[Bamafan77]

There's just SO much stuff out there. SO many languages, technologies, frameworks,etc... none of them stable.

Do you guys ever become depressed at the possibility at not knowing enough and thus yeilding a critical edge or are you just resign to keep at as best you can? Most of the time I try to be the latter, but sometimes the former creeps in.

What techniques do you use to try to keep up?

[Jim Buck]

Why keep up? Just sensibly pick the technologies that work for you, the platform you are targeting for, and the customers you are aiming toward. There is no reason for indie developers to have to have the "latest and greatest" of everything. That's what AAA development is for.

[Fantus]

Keep up with what and who is setting the standard?

What I mean is; a game isn't better than another game just because they used the latest technique. Boardgames like Risk are still fun, and those are made from cardboard and wood.

[Kai Backman]

There was a very interesting article about this in Scientific American a while ago. Bamafan77, you are essentially a maximizer. You would like to know the worth of all potential options before you decide on any one of them. And you would like to know the future implications of your choices as well. The other camp is satisficers who evaluate a few choices and then just pick one and don't much look back. Needless to say satisficers are much happier than maximizers, even if maximizers tend to get slightly better results (when they finally pick something). :)

If you are going to run a business you need to focus your evaluation and learn to make decisions. Many times just doing something is much more productive than waiting years for the perfect solution. Software will always be unstable, there will always come better choices along. However, if you wait for them you will never get anything completed.

My basic nature is the same as yours so I need to focus to be able to make decisions with only limited information (I learned a lot while being an officer in the Finnish Air Force). What I tend to do is take an "officer minute". I start by collecting all reasonable information available at the moment (by listening to people, reading etc). When I'm reasonably certain I have the most important stuff covered I turn my back to everything and set my timer to go off in 60 seconds. Whatever the outcome is I tend to stick with it until forced to change again.

[Lerc]

There are plenty of things out there that I'd like to learn that I'm never going to have time for. Heck, I'd like to write my own OS but unless I become amazingly wealthy I'm going to be too busy earning a crust to indulge in an OS.

One of the easiest ways to cut down the amount you have to learn is simply to skip things. I have not done any shader programming, I will do eventually but by that time the tools and the hardware will have advanced that there will be a whole range of obsolete shader tech that I will never have learnt. The same thing more or less applies to any leading edge thing. Some new tech paths will be dead ends, waiting a little will let you save time because you will be able to identitfy the dead ends.

[tentons]

There is no reason for indie developers to have to have the "latest and greatest" of everything. That's what AAA development is for.
:confused: This attitude will never lead to exceptional work.

Certainly pragmatism is in order to manage all the information out there, but there's no reason to view indie games as second-tier products by definition and limit yourself because of it. If you want to make money, you have to compete with all other entertainment.

[princec]

This is why I stick to my guns with fringe technologies like Java and OpenGL. They work, they're good enough, they're stable enough, I'm happy enough. I haven't even moved on to the latest Java or OpenGL features - still using Java 1.4 and GL1.3 features only really. I can extract an awful lot more out of them, and I bet I can still make it exceptional too, tentons :)

Cas :)

[Fry Crayola]

:confused: This attitude will never lead to exceptional work.

Certainly pragmatism is in order to manage all the information out there, but there's no reason to view indie games as second-tier products by definition and limit yourself because of it. If you want to make money, you have to compete with all other entertainment.

I think his point is that with indie development, and the genres that it often encompasses, nobody's going to mark you down for not having graphics on a par with Far Cry. Unless of course what you're trying to do is write a Far Cry beater.

Many indie titles are 2D, and good 2D is well within the reach of most of us. And it'll run on just about any consumer PC you care to mention.

[Anthony Flack]

Of course this attitude can lead to exceptional work. You don't need to advance the technology just for the sake of it.

We're in a creative industry and the technology should serve the creativity. I'm fairly happy with where I am at the moment because I don't feel particularly constricted with what I can achieve. When the time comes that I want to do something that's beyond me, then I will investigate whatever it is I need to learn.

Until then, it's just wasted time that could be spent doing real work.

[EpicBoy]

Of course this attitude can lead to exceptional work. You don't need to advance the technology just for the sake of it.
I agree. If you aren't chasing technology or trying to implement pixel shaders into your tetris clone, you can focus on trying to make the game fun and interesting (what a thought!).

[cliffski]

Its nonsense to sugegst you can't make an exceptional game without having the latest technology. If thats what you think you are best off going to work for EA, seriously.

I played star monkey again this lunchtime, and Jets n Guns demo. why? Because they are fun, despite not having any pixel shaders.
Maybe 0.1% of gamers give a damn about the latest pixel shaders and reflection mapping nonsense. The rest of us want to have fun.

I don't have the vaguest idea of how to write pixel shaders and see zero reason to ever bother learning. I'm quite capable of writing a nice game without them. My latest game even uses GDI for text, and thats not against the law either :D

[Jim Buck]

Yeah, it's what I meant in my original response to the guy. Someone else said it about him never completing anything if he's constantly trying to have the latest-n-greatest stuff in his game. AAA developers can afford to do that since they have AAA budgets to go along with this mentality.

As an example, I plan to use the Quake2 engine for my game design. Everyone I tell this too looks at me funny and asks me if it isn't too old of a tech to use. Of course it's not! Not by a longshot. I'm not even going to use it for a FPS or 3rdPS.. which if I were, potentially someone *could* try to compare my game to Half-Life 2 or Doom3, and in that case, I would be screwed. :)

[cliffski]

AAA developers can afford to do that since they have AAA budgets to go along with this mentality.

and yet they still buckle under the stress. look at Duke Nukem Fornever. How many engines they got through now?

[EpicBoy]

Hey, they've got the cash. They can take as long as they want and tell the world to stick it. Not many developers can do that.

[Evak]

Just look at BLitz3D and it's DX7 engine. Appart from decent shadows, with a bit of experience and technical knowledge you can create visuals equivalent to almost any PS2 game out there today. It often amazes me how much people can push out of DX7, which is an ageing API. Blitz3D is one of the most complete DX7 renderers out there but still lacks quite a few pretty big features. But you can still create AA quality games in it.

I don't think technology avaliable to indie sdevs is a problem. The real problem is financing projects and having the time to create those resources. Thats the real reason indie games have trouble competing with commercial games. Very few can realisticaly afford teams of 14+ experienced professionals. Which is probably the minimum required to complete a popular AAA title with 10 hours of gameplay.

But there's no reason you can't get close to the less media intense AA games out there in graphics and audio quality, what you have to make sure of is that you have the imagination and flexibility to not just copy whats allready out there if you don't stand a chance of producing at the same level. Thats why I find the whole FPS, MMOG and GTA type projects by small startup teams with no experience and limited time so frustrating.

[Jim Buck]

and yet they still buckle under the stress. look at Duke Nukem Fornever. How many engines they got through now?

They're on their 2nd one last I checked, but that's exactly the point - they want to play the latest-n-greatest technology game, and they can totally afford to like EpicBoy pointed out. Whether or not they should be doing this (they *could* be shipping DNF2 instead of DNF1 by now) is for another thread. :)

[Coyote]

You have to pick your battles.

You don't have millions of dollars and tons of employees to explore every option (from my own experience with major publishers, they STILL don't have that option even with all their resources - they have to pick their battles too!)

The short history of computer and video games is FULL of examples of games that were exceptional, turned the industry on its ear in some cases, yet didn't push any of the technological envelopes. In fact, 95% of the time the intended technological tour-de-force lands with a big splash and is forgotten by the end of the year - and that's assuming they manage to release before their new features become old hat.

People love pretty eye-candy and novel features. That's not a bad thing, and you shouldn't adopt any kind of Luddite approach to game development. But technology needs to serve game development, not the other way around.

[Rainer Deyke]

Personally I love playing with new technologies and new languages. I know it's not a very productive use of my time; it's just something that I enjoy doing.

[Bluecat]

Whether or not they should be doing this (they *could* be shipping DNF2 instead of DNF1 by now) is for another thread. :)

I suspect that now Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 have been released, and they've had a chance to check them out, we may see DNF before too much longer. I think 3DR have previously said that they wanted to release the best FPS ever, and HL2 is some pretty stiff competition.

Or maybe they're just going for the world record for the longest game development project. ;)

I don't really care how long it takes, though I would like to play it, as long as it is a great game.

[Ricardo C]

I suspect that now Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 have been released, and they've had a chance to check them out, we may see DNF before too much longer.

Please, the cycle is just about to start over.

1997: "We've made the decision to use the red-hot Quake II engine. Expect gorgeous colored lighting, top-notch OpenGL support, damage skins, and more!"

*the DNF team gets a look at Unreal*

1998: "We've made the decision to abandon the aging Quake II tech in favor of the Unreal engine. Look how gorgeous our levels look now that we can add blooming to our light sources. Weeeee!!"

*the DNF team gets a look a Half-Life*

1999: "We've decided to retool DNF in order to expand the scope of the game. We've come up with some nifty storytelling elements that will knock your socks off. Look at how cool this security guard (no relation to Barney, wink wink) looks with a tentacle coming out of his mouth!"

*the DNF team gets a look at Quake III*

2000: "We've decided to implement shaders in DNF, and so the release date will have to be pushed back a few months. But don't worry, it'll be worth it. Oooh, pretty pretty water shader!"

And so on, and so on, and so on.

After holding back DNF yet again in order to beef up the storytelling elements to "compete" with HL2, as well as tossing in a few levels that ape Doom3's atmosphere, they'll switch to the Oblivion engine. In 2007, they'll switch to Unreal3. And so it will continue, forever and ever and ever, amen.

[Bluecat]

Please, the cycle is just about to start over.

...snippety


After holding back DNF yet again in order to beef up the storytelling elements to "compete" with HL2, as well as tossing in a few levels that ape Doom3's atmosphere, they'll switch to the Oblivion engine. In 2007, they'll switch to Unreal3. And so it will continue, forever and ever and ever, amen.

Well... I am an optimist at heart. Half-Life 2 was subject to the same jibes... and so was Doom 3. I figure at some point they either have to release it, or cancel it, and cancellation would bring about a huge loss of face (as well as being disappointing to the fans.)

I saw a docco on G4 a few weeks ago about the making of HL2. Apart from the code leak and embarressment of not making release, one of the comments that stood out to me was that they had reached a point where they could confidently say that for each month of development, they added about an hour of gameplay after that point. If that's the case for DNF, there should be about a hundred hours of gameplay in it! ;)

[EpicBoy]

As I've heard George Broussard say on many occasions, "It's only late until it ships". And I've seen that play out time and time again. People raised bloody hell over Half-Life2's delays - once it shipped, that was all forgotten.

[Evak]

On the other hand you get a game like Riddick that came out of the blue made doom 3 look like a pile of cow dung in the gameplay department and smacked a big dent in HL2's backside to boot.

Personaly I think that Riddick was the overlooked highlight of the year as far as FPS goes. It did everything well, hand to hand combat that actually worked in an FPS, seamless FPS to TPS camera for tombraider like acrobatics, better stealth than splinter cell. great first person player casting shadows and despite somewhat blocky level geometry the lighting and shadows looked better than doom 3's. Top voice acting, RPG/adventure elements.

And almost no hype, even today it's not done that well, mainly because the movie was a total flop. Not often that a game licence based on a movie turns out better than the movies its based on heh.

[Ricardo C]

As I've heard George Broussard say on many occasions, "It's only late until it ships". And I've seen that play out time and time again. People raised bloody hell over Half-Life2's delays - once it shipped, that was all forgotten.

He wouldn't have to say it so much if he didn't have a game in development for almost eight years now ;)

[cliffski]

assuming that the game has a minimum 30 people working on it since 1997, thats 240 man years of work, assuming $50k per employee thats $12 million dollars labour. Plus maybe $4 million in engine licencing, maybe $2million in office rent, another $1million in assorted expenses, probably new PCs twice for everyone, pension costs yada yada...
Do you think another FPS game is going to sell enough to pay all that back? I doubt it.
assume $12 per copy royalty, that games gotta sell at least 1.5 million copies.
Let the number-related arguments begin :D

[dogbert]

3D Realms have a royalty deal from Take Two that's stupendously tipped in their favour from what I've read.

[EpicBoy]

Yeah, they sold the Max Payne IP for many millions a while back ... $40 mil, I think? Take that and combine it with their cut from the Max Payne games themselves and they don't have any worries.

[gmcbay]

People raised bloody hell over Half-Life2's delays - once it shipped, that was all forgotten.


And on the other hand you have Daikatana, where once it shipped.. well, everyone had a good laugh.

If DNF turns out to be the greatest FPS ever, that'd be cool and I'd be the first to eat my words, but I don't think 3D Realms has ever proven in the past that they are capable of a really great game. The original Duke games weren't anything special in terms of pure gaming. The only reason people remember them is because of the over-the-top male/macho schtick (most of which was stolen from Evil Dead/Army of Darkness/They Live), which will get lost in the noise of today's marketing, where everybody is doing over-the-top.

[Abscissa]

And on the other hand you have Daikatana, where once it shipped.. well, everyone had a good laugh.
Daikatana's a bit of an odd case. Even if it had been the greatest game in the world, everyone still would have hated it just because of how much they *wanted* to hate it. Heckling Romero was such a poular "in" thing to do that nobody was willing to give it a chance, no matter how good or bad it ended up being. And it really wasn't all *that* bad anyway (I actually liked it).

[Abscissa]

On the other hand you get a game like Riddick that came out of the blue made doom 3 look like a pile of cow dung in the gameplay department and smacked a big dent in HL2's backside to boot.
I don't get what's with all of this equating complex gameplay with good gameplay. Complex gameplay mechanics don't make gameplay good, and simple gameplay mechancs don't make gameplay bad. Quality and complexity are completely separate concepts. Indie developers should know that better than anyone.

[Evak]

I don't get what's with all of this equating complex gameplay with good gameplay. Complex gameplay mechanics don't make gameplay good, and simple gameplay mechancs don't make gameplay bad. Quality and complexity are completely separate concepts. Indie developers should know that better than anyone.

If you played riddick you will find that its pretty intuitive to play and a lot of thought went into designing it that way, so that you really don't get stuck on a clumsy awkwad control systems and do have a fair amount of freedom in what you can do. It mixes a bunch of genres and does them better than most genre specific games.

Nothing wrong with complex games though, I actually don't get much longevity out of most Indie games, and probably enjoy as few as 5% of all games that come out these days. Riddick just happened to be the one that stood out for me the most in the past year, and pushed FPS games a lot further than the same old slapping a weapon model in front of a camera and moving the camera around.

[HairyTroll]

I first read the thread title as "How to keep it up". Different topic entirely.

[EpicBoy]

And on the other hand you have Daikatana, where once it shipped.. well, everyone had a good laugh.
Yeah, but I'm not talking about the quality of the game, just the lateness. Once the game ships, nobody cares about that anymore.

It's only late until it ships.

[monco]

Interesting. I enjoy game development in my spare time because the technology is relatively stable compared to that used in my day job - web development/IT. There, we're pretty much doing the same things we've been doing for 10 years -- making web pages with dynamic content -- but technologies/frameworks/languages/libraries/etc. change so fast it's dizzying. Funny thing is, good old Perl CGI still beats most if not all of the new fancy schmancy stuff and it's been around since the beginning.

One of the side effects of this "bleeding edge" approach I see in IT is that you have a bunch of developers with a shallow knowledge of several different technologies, as well as an entry-level knowledge of software development in general. Half the guys I work with can't function outside of their IDEs, and most don't even know what a makefile is or how to write one.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur...

[halodrake]

No- your not a dinosaur. I also do web development right now, and am forced to do work in ASP (much perfer the C-like nature of PHP, but I digress, my boss is particular to ASP, so....) and I work with some *right out of college kids* who love using the .NET IDE and Frontpage. I myself never ever touch it, and I get very frustrated when going over their *creations* with it. A nightmare. I long for my old job- programming on a Z80 POS device in C, using ASM and makefiles...sniffle.


There's just SO much stuff out there. SO many languages, technologies, frameworks,etc... none of them stable.

Do you guys ever become depressed at the possibility at not knowing enough and thus yeilding a critical edge or are you just resign to keep at as best you can? Most of the time I try to be the latter, but sometimes the former creeps in.

What techniques do you use to try to keep up?


The answer to this (at least my answer to this) is you keep up by making your own. Think I'm kidding? Nope. http://geekzine.net/freya