Selling games that don't exist

[impossible]

A friend of mine that chooses to remain namless has a listing of many games for sale that at this point in time do not exist, most of them are currently in the rough idea phase, and not in development. His reasoning is it's good "market research" to test which games will sell and which won't. He does not mention anywhere on the site that the games are not finished, and these are not preorders, he's charging full price. He will offer people that are not willing to wait for the games to come out (if they are finished) a refund. Would you call this valid market research, or a shady business tactic?

His reponse to this post:

I don't use the word "Pre-order" on the website because people may get confused

[gmcbay]

Shady.

Also, have you considered choosing better friends?

[Ricardo C]

Your "friend" is an idiot at best, a fraudster at worst.

EDIT: Your original post said he doesn't use the word preorder because "the kids won't get it". Interesting edit on your part.

Why don't you show us the website? I'm rather interested in seeing how he can be advertising games that don't exist.

[Anthony Flack]

I think that best or worst, he is clearly both an idiot and a fraudster.

[Gnatinator]

That is quite clever :D

I would like to see the site too

[impossible]

EDIT: Your original post said he doesn't use the word preorder because "the kids won't get it". Interesting edit on your part.

Why don't you show us the website? I'm rather interested in seeing how he can be advertising games that don't exist.
He told me to change the original post... I guess that backfired. He also told me not to mention the site for fear of someone stealing his game ideas. Some of the people on the forums that have met us in real life can probably guess who he is.

[Ricardo C]

If his game ideas show the same brilliance as this scheme, I'd say he shouldn't worry about having them stolen. Perhaps he knows he's a conman and that publicizing his website here might result in him getting enough bad publicity to sink his name for good in the industry.

How do people tell you two apart? Is he the mouth-breather?

[Gnatinator]

I wont steal any ideas; I have plenty of my own for future games :)

PM me the site addy or post it here, im really curious to see how hes set this up.

[Jack Norton]

LOL I have seen lot of things but this one beats all!
Selling products that doesn't exist? here in Italy (but I'm sure even in other countries) this is called FRAUD, and you risk jail doing so.
Also, I'd like to know which vendor he uses. After 3-4 refunds they'll probably get suspicious and look at his site, and when they see that he is not selling anything, they would probably close his account and maybe report to authorities.

A brilliant marketing scheme, indeed.

[Andy]

Really if to look on this like he is exactly sells the IDEAS - it wouldn't sound so fraudulent :D

Saying seriously - good and correct marketing idea. But I can't get too - he should stop on some stage of the order procedure anyway - otherwise Jack is right - it would be 3-4 orders before any merchant account would be closed.

And... I'm not wondering to know the site. Amount of good game ideas are everywhere anyway. ;)

[Anthony Flack]

Oh no, I don't want to steal the ideas. I want to buy copies of the games that don't exist. Where do I order them from?

[Jack Norton]

Oh no, I don't want to steal the ideas. I want to buy copies of the games that don't exist. Where do I order them from?
LOL!!!!!!!!!
Yes order 100 games even for me ;)

Also, now that I think about it "seriously" - this is useless even from the marketing point. Because the orders would be from people who didn't even play a demo, so he would need to keep selling games without a demo. Honestly I don't even buy commercial games without a demo, and I bet lot of people does that...

[svero]

Well from what I've seen of the titles other people on this board have for sale **LOTS** of you are selling games that aren't finished yet. So I think this is more or less common practice. Heh.. just kiddin'

Seriously though, this is pretty shady. Its fraud plain and simple. I believe he could wind up in trouble if someone reported him or complained to the police. I recommend he stop doing it and refund whatever he's collected. He could use freeware games with feedback forms or many other methods to get similar results without defrauding people.

[Anthony Flack]

Oh well, he can always try selling stuff that doesn't exist on ebay instead.

[Diodor Bitan]

Considering how hard it is to sell games that do exist, is anyone expecting him to sell a single copy of the ungames?

[Andy]

Seriously though, this is pretty shady. Its fraud plain and simple. I believe he could wind up in trouble if someone reported him or complained to the police. I recommend he stop doing it and refund whatever he's collected. He could use freeware games with feedback forms or many other methods to get similar results without defrauding people.


Agree on fraudulent and shady.
Disagree on free staff. I suppose that when you give away something for free you: 1. target another auduience; 2. get incorrect results because of it.
Nope. I suppose that could give more correct results to wieght the value of idea if you'd stop peoples on the order page by something like: "Oops! This game isn't finished yet etc." But you count the number of clicks on order page.

Speaking about this concrete fraud - yeah! :( And we are wondering after all this BS why peoples are so worried when think about make any purchase only. :(

[svero]

Agree on fraudulent and shady.
Disagree on free staff.

Well its not exactly the same obviously. The point is there are other ways to get similar kind of information. If you want to know how a game might be received asking people for feedback on a free demo or minigame is not terrible.

[Andy]

Considering how hard it is to sell games that do exist, is anyone expecting him to sell a single copy of the ungames?

Look Diador. Think about what privelegies you can get from idea. (Of course I live aside the stupid idea to take money from peoples for nothing).
You can:
1. check and compare different game ideas;
2. check and adjust the site to get the best clickthroughs on order page.

And all this even before your game is published.

[Vectrex]

eh? "your order has been processed, please wait 12 months for delivery" :D

The VERY LEAST he can do is when they click on buy, to tell them that it's a small marketing experiment and to give them a sizable discount voucher for when it really does come out.

[Anthony Flack]

Oh, I think he's already figured out what the VERY LEAST he can do is.

[joe]

His reasoning is it's good "market research" to test which games will sell and which won't.


I'm sure it is NO GOOD market research because Im sure most games are sold because people checking out free demo versions of the games before they decide to buy it or not. I can't belive he really does sell something that never exists. But if so I'm sure soon "customers" will bring an action against him.

[sphinx]

impossible : your friend is impossible :D

[luggage]

A friend of mine...

lol! That old chestnut!

:D

[milieu]

If "your friend" is actually charging people's credit cards, he's likely committing fraud. At the least, he could face fines; at most he could go to jail.

A quick search found that Staples paid an $850,000 fine simply because they "misled customers on its Website about the availability of its products and its ability to deliver purchases in the time promised." Essentially, they were promising that items were in-stock and ready for delivery when they were not. Please note: the items actually existed.
http://catalogagemag.com/ops/marketing_staples_pay_ftc_2/

There is also an FTC regulation called the Mail Order Rule, also known as the 30 day rule. What it says is that you cannot advertise items for sale if you do not reasonably believe they can be mailed within 30 days. Your friend could be fined $11,000 per order he has taken so far.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/mailorder.htm

Interestingly, the FTC does allow for what is called "dry-testing", where the item is advertised before it is available. However, the FTC requires that this fact be made abundantly clear to the purchaser before ordering and in all advertising materials, or the rule applies.

"Your friend" is an idiot, and should desist immediately and return any money he has collected before he ends up in serious trouble.

[Escotia]

Is it sunnygames or mkovacic trying a new 'bussines model' (sic.) ? :p

[Vorax]

Would you call this valid market research, or a shady business tactic?

This is not shady at all.

Shady is when you do something misleading such as what sunnygames does with adware without warning until the user has taken the time to download the game...and may miss the fact that it exists. Sunnygames bi-passes fraud because they do actually make some effort, though late, to give the end user the option to not install the game because it contains adware.

"Your friend" on the other hand is blatantly commiting fraud and runs the risk of serious fines and/or jail time.

[Hamumu]

I've got a friend who kills people for their shoes. Is this unneighborly or a valid shoe purchase tactic?

Best thread ever.

[AnotherDev]

Selling things that don't exist?
http://www.dvdrewinder.com
:)

[Anthony Flack]

This is the best thread ever.

[C_Coder]

Selling things that don't exist?
http://www.dvdrewinder.com
:)


What's that product a joke or am I not getting it?? :confused:

[Sirrus]

That is quite clever :D

I would like to see the site too


We know who his "friend" is now :)

[Abscissa]

What's that product a joke or am I not getting it?? :confused:
It's a novelty item, a gag gift. Check out the news coverage at the bottom of the front page.

[KNau]

To the original post,

Not to be too blunt but your friend suffers from an ailment that effects most beginning indie developers - it's called newbie-itis-tosis. Basically, it's the belief that your games and ideas are so fantastic and original that everyone wants to steal them -as if "ideas" have value in themselves (they don't).

The belief manifests itself in a few ways:
1) Posting "announcements" about their games that include long winded back stories but no links, screenshots or downloads.
2) Not submitting a copy of their game to review sites because they're worried the reviewer will steal the game and sell it himself.
3) Not submitting a copy of their game to distributors because they're worried that, even though it's a publicly traded corp. with a proven track record, the distributor will "steal" their game because it's so brilliant.
4) Killing off distribution offers from reputable companies because of basic clauses, arguing with the publisher over each and every line in the contract.
5) Requesting code help but not posting any of their source code because their programming techniques are so unique and brilliant.

I think we've all fallen prey to this illness as one point or another but honestly without seeing or hearing your friend's game ideas I can tell you, without hesitation or doubt, that they are not that original or brilliant. Tell him to stop worrying so much about "the other guys" and just get his games done, you know, like a professional would.

[Abscissa]

Would you call this valid market research, or a shady business tactic?
I would not call it either of those. Like everyone else here, the things I *would* call it include: scam, fraud, illegal.

And also like everyone else has said: if he's worried about people stealing his ideas, then I guarantee his ideas are not that good in the first place.

[Tom Cain]

Would you call this valid market research, or a shady business tactic?From your description of what is being done, this isn't market research or a business tactic. In the US, this is a federal crime. Internet "retailers" who take money but deliver no goods are usually charged with wire fraud, and can be charged with credit card fraud depending on circumstances and mail fraud if the goods were supposed to be mailed. Convicted individuals have received sentences of restitution fines and federal imprisonment.

[KNau]

The funny thing about "idea theft" worries is that they seem to be exclusive to the newbie indie arena. Professional developers start marketing and releasing information from the moment they begin development. Look at how early they started releasing screenshots, gameplay videos and information on games like Half Life 2.

Peter Molyneux (sp?) started telling everyone about his idea for "The Movies" even before it went into production. I don't recall any stories about him hiding in the basement, blocking his computer screen from anyone who walked by.

Gaming Press: "Mr. Carmack, we hear you're developing Doom III, what can you tell us about it?"

Carmack: "Nothing! Shut up! You're going to steal my ideas!"

Hmmm...doesn't sound very professional, does it?

[arcadetown]

He also told me not to mention the site for fear of someone stealing his game ideas. Some of the people on the forums that have met us in real life can probably guess who he is.
Great, a theif that's afraid of people stealing from him, now I've heard everything. You're friend is a menace to all legit operations giving the entire industry a bad rap and potentially hurting everyone's sales! You should encourage your friend to stop immediately. If not atleat be much more upfront about why he's doing this and not charge credit cards until user agrees.

[Jack Norton]

I know! his friend is J.Carmack! :D

Best thread ever, I agree.

[papillon]

Professional developers start marketing and releasing information from the moment they begin development.


Of course, mainstream retail games DO steal ideas from each other, too. :)

Personally I want to keep details of an idea quiet if the idea is all I have - ie, if I haven't even started working on it yet, therefore if anyone DID get inspired by the idea and start now they could have their game finished and on the market long before mine and make *me* look like the cloner. I'm aware it's a little bit silly. But on the other hand, so is bragging about this GREAT idea I have for a game that I might make... uh, someday.

Feels different to me if it's already in production.

Of course, the obvious benefit to releasing your information loudly and widely is that if everyone knows about it, then if someone borrows from it the reviews of that something else might mention you. :)

[mahlzeit]

Internet "retailers" who take money but deliver no goods . . .
As I understood it, after purchasing you get an email or whatever that says, "This game is not available yet. You can wait until it becomes available, or get your money back." So he's not intending to not deliver. Of course, he isn't totally honest about what is going on up-front, but it's not a take-the-money-and-run scheme either.

I have seen a variation of this approach that is more morally sound, where you would advertise several non-existing products (using adwords) to measure interest. Of course, here you only count adword clicks (i.e. hits to special URLs), not take people's money.

[impossible]

I'm very tempted to post the link to the site, just to prove that this thread is not a joke and the friend in question is not really me, but I promised him that I wouldn't do it. Also, at this point in time I'm afraid people might report him to Plimus for fraud. While I was hoping he'd see the error of his ways if it was not only me deriding his business plan, but the whole indiegamer community, but he seems to have taken a more even defensive stance.

I have my own tactic. You know, any new great idea gets criticized and then finally accepted and embraced

Most of his defense revolves around big, sucessful companies (Microsoft) using hostile or slightly under handed business tactics to produce results. The thing is, his methods are directly very hostile to the consumer.

[milieu]

Personally I want to keep details of an idea quiet if the idea is all I have - ie, if I haven't even started working on it yet, therefore if anyone DID get inspired by the idea and start now they could have their game finished and on the market long before mine and make *me* look like the cloner. I'm aware it's a little bit silly.
Not at all! I totally agree. Once you have something down, and a development process started, it is unlikely anyone will beat you to market with a better version of your idea.

Another issue for startups is that talking about a game before beginning production will quickly cause them to lose all credibility. When someone like John Carmack says he has an idea, people listen. Anyone else better have screenshots and demos to show, or people will quickly lose interest.

[Tom Cain]

As I understood it, after purchasing you get an email or whatever that says, "This game is not available yet. You can wait until it becomes available, or get your money back." So he's not intending to not deliver. Of course, he isn't totally honest about what is going on up-front, but it's not a take-the-money-and-run scheme either.I understand what you are saying, and this would have to go to court and be argued. My bet would be on the DoJ.

This isn't a case where the product is out of stock, or that the product is in production with a definite release date. The product does not exist and is not in production. It may not be released for a year, two years, maybe more, maybe never. If every frauder could claim to the court that he would eventually get around to developing the widget he was proporting to sell, then they all would make this claim.
at this point in time I'm afraid people might report him to Plimus for fraud.I thought he was doing it as the retailer. He should stop right now. Plimus, as the actual retailer, would be liable for the fraud if not for the contract he is breaching. If taxes are being collected in the payments it could bring other charges. When Plimus finds out what he is doing they will likely go beyond shutting down his account by turning him in to the authorities, since this is part of legally protecting themselves. They will also have to refund the fraudulent sales and could take legal action to recoup the money from him if necessary.

[Vectrex]

impossible: what I want to know, has anyway actually bought these 'games' yet? If so how many refunds and how many "ill wait"s? If they choose to wait, does he tell them it'll take like *12 months* before they get their game? My previous post stands. If he doesn't do something like that and takes their money then, go directly to jail, do not pass go! He's praying on the fact that the effort that they've gone to and the effort to get their money back might be too much to bother, otherwise they would still pay the money being warned beforehand.

ps what's he use for screenshots/demos? :)

[Ricardo C]

If they choose to wait, does he tell them it'll take like *12 months* before they get their game?

Not only that, he's supposedly "selling" several games. What does he do then? "Delivery time for game X is 12 months... 24 months for game Y, and 36-48 months for game Z"?

[Martoon]

Heh heh. I think your friend's scheme takes the concept of Just-In-Time inventory to a new extreme.

Regarding your friend's paranoia about people stealing his ideas, there's a quote I like from Howard Aiken (one of the great computer pioneers in the 1940's):
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats."

Contrary to what some seem to believe, the world is not full of people clamoring to steal ideas and invest the effort to make the ideas reality. Last I checked, ideas have an average market value of around $0.0083 each (i.e., a dime a dozen). Ideas are horrendously cheap and plentiful (even "good ideas"). It's the blood, sweat and tears required to implement them that's in short supply (and that's the part that has value).

There are considerably more honest (and effective) ways to get feedback on what games potential customer's might buy. For example, Hamumu's Dumb Idea Repository (http://hamumu.com/idea.php).

[yanuart]

LOL.. seriously.. are you allowed to do this (legal wise) ??
if not..** he's afraid that ppl will report to plimus for fraud ** isn't it a fraud allready ?
if yes.. hmm I might come to a conclusion to change my job :D

btw, the indies-itis-itos desease really well said ! altough at some point it's best to hide ur business secrets and not reveal it at premature stage of development.
before I turned into game making, I used to work at animation industry in my country and being a veteran with good channels I really like to help those obscured startup studios but it was hard with all that attitude.. apparently I just found out that most of them have this movie about how bill gates stole apple's idea on making graphical OS.. dude.. it's the animation industry.. what can i do with your reels ??

[Ricardo C]

Can a Plimus user email them and let them know about this discussion? I checked their contact page, but there's no channel suitable for "complaints about a jackass you heard about online and whose URL you don't know, but uses Plimus" ;)

[impossible]

The games have been removed from his site. Hopefully this thread was a wake up call for him, at least to be a little bit more careful when he comes up with marketing schemes.

[sphinx]

The games have been removed from his site. Hopefully this thread was a wake up call for him, at least to be a little bit more careful when he comes up with marketing schemes.

Good for him :)

[Omega]

But more importantly than changing 'his' behavior, 'he' should take responsibility for his mistakes.

[Armsfeld]

Heh heh. I think your friend's scheme takes the concept of Just-In-Time inventory to a new extreme.

Clever. Now make a program that slaps together a game to approximate the game description the victim/customer paid for, and you'd put the "business" back into "shady business practices."

Hey... don't we have several mainstream industries that sell things that don't exist? Your friend's biggest problems might be starting too late and too small.

[Uhfgood]

Curious thread.

As far as ideas there's another thought to this... I prefer not to publish my ideas very widely, that is to a few friends usually. This is mostly because I don't want someone to get a great idea like me and end up doing it before me. Here's how I figure this... say you're talking to your friends and you let slip that you're making game-x with features y and z... And then your friends are game developers too (maybe they're not in real life but this is a hypothetical situation) - They suddenly have a great idea to do game w, but because you gave them ideas for y and z, y and z is now in the back of their head... "This would be cool if..." And let's say they're more adept than you at getting your product out... Sure you are working on game-x but you're not that fast, they suddenly comeout with game w before you come out with game-x and the "stole" your ideas for features y and z, without even realizing it. Granted this is all hypothetical but i've been in situations where my ideas are overheard and used, and they don't think they're doing anything wrong because they don't remember where they heard it. I can't do anything mostly because I shot off my big mouth in the first place...

Food for thought at any rate whether you agree or disagree with me. :-)

As far as a marketing scheme what about the opposite (of what i'm saying above about protecting ideas) and instead you develop them to a point of mock screens mock design and you advertise as you would if you were selling the game but MAKING SURE PEOPLE KNOW that you're not actually selling anything yet and in fact not charging for anything so you're not comitting fraud--- Would this be a valid technique?

Keith

[Teeth]

The thing I'm worried about with that plan, and I've been thinking about this so I thought I'd post it, is that if you blow your load too early or you're bad at scheduling (lots of people are) then your release point might not coincide with your peak attention, that is to say people may have lost interest by the time you ship.

Having said that I do drop by TCFH.com occasionally and there's always newsletter subscriptions... and you could keep people coming back to your site by adding content related to your game (micro-applets, or flash doodahs for example). But then we're going into how much time you devote to your website vs. developing the product, which I'm sure is a matter for another thread.

[Escotia]

...but i've been in situations where my ideas are overheard and used...

I've had ideas used that I've never spoken of. Clearly people must be sucking the good ideas straight from my brain. I've taken to wearing a foil hat and only thinking while I'm sitting under a table.

[Jim Buck]

Like another poster said, ideas are *truly* worth a dime a dozen. *Everyone* has great idea. It's 100% about the blood and sweat to implement it. Ideas do not live in the same realm as "when the rubber hits the cement". It's in the latter realm where it all matters. Even if someone "copied" someone else's idea, there is no way they would end up implementing the exact way you imagined it anyway. Everyone has their own subjective ideas about how something will ultimately will end up, and it will end up evolving as it gets implemented anyway - both your version of the idea as well as his. Most likely will not evolve in the same direction - complete divergence.

That's why I find it very funny when people mention now wanting to "give out" ideas whether it's still unimplemented or not.

[Uhfgood]

I'm not talking about whether or not you implement the idea. I'm talking about the people that do implement them... so when there's something i've spoken about and someone overhears, it's absorbed into their conciousness. Haven't you ever come up with something that sounds new and exciting only to figure out it already exists? That would be the reverse you hearing some tune, and not remembering where it came from try to incorperate it into say your game music or whatever. You didn't deliberately steal someone's idea, it's just your mind absorbs everything like a sponge.

On the subject of someone having the same ideas as you, that's clearly the case of great minds thinking alike... if you've thought of it, chances are alot of other people have thought of it as well...

Notice i'm not advocating being super-secretive or whatever, just a little cautious common sense.

[JoeMaru]

If someone overhears an idea I have and can implement the design better than I can, faster than I can.. they deserve to get compensated for it, because that would indicate that as an implementor, they rock and I suck, and they deserve money whilst I deserve whatever level of hell is reserved for people who drop the ball.

Seriously. while I would not go so far to say ideas are a dime a dozen.. (there are some that are worth less than 1/20th of a penny and some that are worth 3 cents... meaning that there are 'good' and 'bad' ideas for games.. but there is no sense in keeping it a secret.) ideas are cheap, implementation is the key.

[EpicBoy]

This is the same sort of thing as John Carmack discussing the tech he was using during Quakes development. He went into detail on mailing lists talking about the approaches he had tried, what failed, what worked, etc. Everyone knew what he was working on and knew what direction he was going with the tech but that didn't scare him or slow him down at all.

Epic Games is the same way. We openly talk at trade shows about what the tech is, how we've implemented certain techniques, what the next steps are, etc. There's no danger in sharing an idea. The only danger is not being the first one to implement it in a shipping product.

[Uhfgood]

But you are talking about tech. It's a bit different than having some ideas for implementing intellectual property.

If someone overhears me and takes my idea and runs with it, I wouldn't say "I suck" -- sometimes you're just not fast enough that doesn't reflect on you for being a developer.

[Jim Buck]

The point is that that's just not realistically going to happen. It's paranoia at best.

[papillon]

Of course, I'm still begging anyone to take the figure skating sports game idea, since I know I'll never get it done. Come on. You can make a whole skating manager sim! Design exotic costumes for your ladies! FInagle the paperwork to get visas for top ex-soviet coaches! Bribe your way through the ice dance event! Break the kneecaps of your rivals! Who needs Grand Theft Auto when we have figure skating?

[Vectrex]

what about "American under 4's beauty pageant simulator", where the kid has 'self-loathing', 'body image' and 'permanent psycological damage' meters. *shudder*

[Mark Fassett]

The only really good reason not to tell people what you're working on that I am aware of is that not telling avoids the pressure of actually having to deliver something. You won't have to explain why you gave up on whatever project you were working on. If you keep it a secret, you can change your mind a million times, and no one will be the wiser...

[Teeth]

Better, then, to tell everyone, so that you've got an incentive to finish the game ;)

[mahlzeit]

Sometimes -- rare, but it happens -- an idea is truly great and the implementation trivial. I wouldn't tell anyone about an idea like that before I finish the implementation myself.

[EpicBoy]

Generally speaking, IMO, if your idea is easy to implement - it isn't original.

[Abscissa]

I have my own tactic. You know, any new great idea gets criticized and then finally accepted and embraced
That's hilarious. Rationalization at its most entertaining :D. For what it's worth, cults use that same "argument".

[Anthony Flack]

Generally speaking, IMO, if your idea is easy to implement - it isn't original.


That's why it's rare.

I agree, I'd keep quiet about something like that, too.

But the reality is, I'm unlikely to ever have one of those. My ideas aren't brilliantly original. I guess there is some originality in the details... but mostly, it comes down to the hard work and perseverance, and just general skill in implementation. Not good candidates for poaching, in other words, so I'm not the least bit worried about secrecy.

Besides which, I know everyone has their own ideas they're dying to implement... who needs someone elses? I've already got more game designs than I could ever realise.

[mkovacic]

Generally speaking, IMO, if your idea is easy to implement - it isn't original.
I've had a few ideas that are very original, at least to my knowledge, and would not be particularly hard to implement. Trouble is, I have no idea on how to sell them - they're typically non-casual thinking puzzle games. I have absolutely no clue on how to reach that particular market segment.

Take Light&Shadow (http://www.lemonade-p.com/gameinfo.php?index=0) for example. It's a relatively non-obvious (ie original) extension to a known concept, yet it doesn't sell squat. It would probably sell better if it was a straight Candy Cruncher clone.

[mkovacic]

Ahem, point being - originality itself is no guarantee that an idea is actually any good.

[Coyote]

Actually, the big businesses DO get pretty protective of their products in development. They try to keep their cards close to their chest until they are forced to reveal them for marketing concerns.

The difference is that these are major publishers, and their reasons for hiding their products under development is more for marketing and legal reasons. If you are a major publisher, everyone's watching your every move, and there are tons of bottom-feeders who'd want nothing more than to try and bleed you for whatever they can get.

A VP of marketing for a major publisher once told us - and he was being dead serious I *THINK* - that the secret to success for budget titles was to make cheap knock-offs of Microsoft games, and he could put them in a box with somewhat similar packaging and he'd be able to sell tons. He wanted to capitalizes on Microsofts marketing and mindshare. When you see a hit movie based on an existing property (a certain mythology or a remake of an older product), you'll see the grocery stores flooded with similar products trying to take advantage of consumers who can't tell the difference - usually BEFORE the original products hits the shelves.

That's what they are trying to avoid. It's not other people copying their game per se - it's the competition riding on their own marketing.

As indies, the sad truth is that NOBODY IS PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO US. Our marketing budget is miniscule, and the advanced notice we give to the "competition" would at worst light a fire under them to try and release a little earlier than you IF they already have a competing product in development and IF they can actually compress their schedule (HAH HAH HAH HEE HEE HEE HEE....)

The biggest reason to "not reveal" products under development is, in my case, the sheer embarassment that would be experienced if I end up cancelling or substantially altering the focus of the product.

[Momor]

This is a very funny & interesting thread !

I think the "Vaporware" method is quite interesting as long as you don't try to sell it. It can be a good way to test the audience for a game. But as Indies, we are unfortunately not "exposed" enough to the public, so the eventual feedback would be quite un-meaningfull. IMO only big and well know development studios who have enough credibility can give a try at this method in a successfull way ...