Since When Do Pirates Have Lawyers?

[Cartman]

This article just came to my attention. If you are a fan of the-underdogs.org you might want to see this.

Since when do pirates have lawyers? (http://scenario.com/iPoker/index.htm?tab=News)

[papillon]

While the guy clearly has the right to be upset, I hate it when people can't bother to report the facts.

The PIRATE did not have a lawyer. The *ISP* had a lawyer. The article doesn't make it clear whether or not he ever bothered asking Sari herself to remove the software.

Underdogs has many times removed download links to software when they have either been requested to by companies/lawyers/etc *OR* when USERS OF THE SITE have reported finding copies of a game for sale. The forums are currently offline, so I can't dig up documentation of this, but it has most certainly happened. And anyone requesting downloads for commercially available products on the forum gets locked and banned.

Are they pirates? Yes. They know it. They admit it.

Do they have their own ethical standards and stand by them? Yes, as far as I've seen.

Does the software developer have the right to be upset? Of COURSE he does!

But his article title is misleading, and his writing style is unsympathetic, and this doesn't do a thing to change my opinion of the Underdogs, but does make me think the author isn't a guy I want to invite over for dinner. :)


(edit: In fact, the article tells you to go immediately to the ISP and try to SUE SUE SUE rather than "ask them to remove your game". So I guess that's a "no, he didn't bother contacting them".)

[Ricardo C]

From the site's FAQ:

Despite the illegal status of abandonware, we believe that we are offering a valuable service to the gaming community: classic game collectors have a chance to retrieve games that have otherwise been lost or rendered defective with the passage of time. As our Disclaimer printed on every page makes clear, we will gladly remove download links to any game that is either 1) still being sold by the publisher, or 2) at the request of the publishers themselves. Encouraging publishers to continue publishing great classics of yore has always been this site's foremost goals, and we will gladly link to the publisher's order or download site without hesitation should they make their products available again, whether commercially or as freeware.

Perhaps if the author of the article had shot off a quick email telling Saree that his game should not be treated as "abandonware", the situation would not have escalated, and he would have had the game removed a lot sooner than 16 days. I'm finding it hard to be too sympathetic towards him.

[arcadetown]

Ethical standards and pirates? Never thought I'd hear those two words together. I'll side with the author's rights thank you. The only problem was he didn't hire his own slick lawyer to represent himself, bet any decent lawyer could have ripped those guys a new one.

Personally I'd never bother sending a "nice" email to someone with low ethics like that since it only sets yourself up as a reprisal target.

[papillon]

Nuke first, ask questions later! That *is* the official government policy now, isn't it? :)

Personally, if I drop dead tomorrow and am no longer in a position to sell 'em, I hope the abandonware sites pick up and publish my works as widely as possible.

[Cartman]

Shouldn't the abandonware sites at least make an effort to contact the author. If there is a readme.txt with the program or it has the name of the company on the game somewhere, wouldn't it be in their best interests to make sure it's not supported any more? Or does that rely on the author to be diligent and make sure their software isn't being given out for free?

If I ran a site like underdogs, I would at least make the effort to contact the author, and if I didn't get a response and get sued later, I could at least say that I tried to contact them, and show the proof. I just hate that the burden is on the author to tell them to pull it, when a simple email would solve alot of these issues.

[Anthony Flack]

What. A. Dick.

Anyone who cares about videogames at all should be able to appreciate what the Underdogs is trying to do, by allowing videogames to live on as cultural artifacts rather than have them vanish as mere disposable consumer items.

He'll be fitting a burglar alarm on his trash can next.

As mentioned, all he had to do was ask and the Underdogs would have taken it down, or even helped him sell it. But he doesn't care; he doesn't even stop to think. He just wants it all destroyed, for no real reason except that he loves the copyright symbol more than the work.


Personally I'd never bother sending a "nice" email to someone with low ethics like that since it only sets yourself up as a reprisal target.

Are you talking about the Underdogs, or the game author?

[Ricardo C]

Shouldn't the abandonware sites at least make an effort to contact the author. If there is a readme.txt with the program or it has the name of the company on the game somewhere, wouldn't it be in their best interests to make sure it's not supported any more? Or does that rely on the author to be diligent and make sure their software isn't being given out for free?

If I ran a site like underdogs, I would at least make the effort to contact the author, and if I didn't get a response and get sued later, I could at least say that I tried to contact them, and show the proof. I just hate that the burden is on the author to tell them to pull it, when a simple email would solve alot of these issues.


I agree with that. But my original point was that, of all the sites illegally dealing in copyrighted software, this is one of the reare cases in which the webmaster is willing to pull any titles at the request of the author. Why not take advantage of their willingness to cooperate, rather than unloading our anger towards genuine, inescrupulous pirates on them?

[arcadetown]

Are you talking about the Underdogs, or the game author?
I've had nothing but bad experiences with rotten egg webmasters in the past and now avoid them like the plaugue as some have no problems doing illegal things in response. I haven't dealt with underdogs and it's nice to see work preserved however I suppose you are saying anyone should be able to come along and make good $$ from your hard work w/o doing any due diligence such as seeking permission first?

[Ricardo C]

I suppose you are saying anyone should be able to come along and make good $$ from your hard work w/o doing any due diligence such as seeking permission first?

Underdogs doesn't sell the software ir presents as "abandonware", so where is this coming from? :confused:

[arcadetown]

Figure the adverts generate good enough revenue. We seek explicit permission for everything we present and it's a huge amount of work. I suppose we shouldn't bother and simply take anything we please? I'm sorry if I sound angry and probably venting on the wrong subject (sounds like underdogs might be an ok bunch), it's simply copyright infringing sites are a huge growing menace making it harder for legit sites to do their business.

[Ricardo C]

I would reply, but I have a ton of straw all over my keyboard. Where could it have come from?

[luggage]

you are saying anyone should be able to come along and make good $$ from your hard work w/o doing any due diligence such as seeking permission first?
In that case then you can lump Gamespot and Happy Puppy into the same category. They are making money off the back of other people's work too. The problem is that they're techinically breaking the (stupid) law - not the advertising. Would you be happier if they didn't advertise? How about they advertised but didn't allow downloads?

Game's I've worked on are up on Underdogs and I'm more than happy they're there. (9.24 out of 10 - cmon!). If something is up there that people object to then a quick email is enough to sort it. That would be the first thing I'd try.

Underdogs does seem slightly different though - they're trying to preserve games not rip developers off. The 9.24 game's publisher isn't around, you can't buy it in shops except for second hand, where's the harm in letting people download it? Technically it's illegal but morally it seems ok. Could hardly sue them for loss of sales as it's not for sale.

It's a bit like the difference between emulating really old machines that just aren't around and then emulating very recent consoles.

[Rainer Deyke]

It's a bit like the difference between emulating really old machines that just aren't around and then emulating very recent consoles.

Actually I don't see anything even vaguely immoral about emulating recent consoles. If I legally buy a Gamecube game, then I don't see how it's anybody's business if I play the game on a real Gamecube or on my PC. And if I can't run the game on my PC, then I don't buy it, so Nintendo actually lost profit.

[Anthony Flack]

All I can say is, thank god this guy wasn't successful in shutting down Underdogs. They're archivists and historians, and I for one consider us lucky to have them.

If that rampaging idiot actually had them shut down for the sake of his stupid discontinued poker game I'd be rather upset about it. His misguided crusade reminds me of those people that try to make sure that nothing "offensive" is ever permitted to be broadcast. Totally out of proportion.

[luggage]

there is a kind of difference.

If you go out and buy Animal Crossing to play on your PC using an emulator Nintendo have lost money by you not buying a console. (Granted consoles are usually sold at a loss but there would be some income from them.)

Whereas an old arcade game that you can't buy anymore and would vanish off the face of the planet deserves to be saved. Who loses money in this case?

[Anthony Flack]

I do think there's a difference too. I can't see there being a real case for making emulators of any kind illegal, although I can see why Nintendo might be annoyed.

However, the emulation of obsolete systems goes beyond that. This is vital work which must be carried out if the early history of videogames is to be preserved for future generations.

[luggage]

However, the emulation of obsolete systems goes beyond that. This is vital work which must be carried out if the early history of videogames is to be preserved for future generations.

Exactly - this guy would rather look at his (few? probably) sales from his poker game than preserve video games for the future.

I hope our games are given the underdogs treatment when their time is due. And if they were a little early? If sales were good I'd ask them to stop - if the sales were minimal I'd probably give it away free to generate some traffic for the more recent games and a bit of good press from sites like underdogs.

[Andy]

Ethical standards and pirates? Never thought I'd hear those two words together. I'll side with the author's rights thank you. The only problem was he didn't hire his own slick lawyer to represent himself, bet any decent lawyer could have ripped those guys a new one.

Personally I'd never bother sending a "nice" email to someone with low ethics like that since it only sets yourself up as a reprisal target.

I 100% stick with this opinion. Do your ehthics to pirates? You probably still expecting to get your porblems with them guys (and gals). I see the author as dissapointed person in high article and I suppose he got the right to feel so.

PS And I'd be happy to INVITE him to dinner if he'd feel a little bit better with all this staff after that papillon :-)

[Fry Crayola]

Again, I've got to side with the-underdogs but I do agree with the notion that they should attempt to contact the current copyright holders. Many games on their site do have links to the companies where you can still get the game legally.

http://www.worldofspectrum.org take the time to contact most if not all the copyright holders responsible for the 5,500 or so games on their site. When contacted, most of those are more than happy for their old software to be distributed, and many stipulate that World of Spectrum is the only site that can legally offer the images (which isn't really a problem considering anyone interested would go there first).

Of course, the Speccy is over 20 years old with very little software being made for it these days (though it does still happen), and the copyright holders are unlikely to make much cash. One of the few companies that refuse are Codemasters, and I can only assume that's because of the massive following the likes of Dizzy had back in the day - there's surely money to be made with a massive retro compilation if they can be bothered.

So back to the Underdogs. They're just preserving the old games that can't be found any more. I'm sure a lot of the companies know of their existence and that their games are on the site, and with a simple email they can get them taken down with little hassle. The fact the companies don't is more an indication of "Frankly, we don't care". Many of the games couldn't be sold today if you tried - they've been outclassed in every department by more recent titles. Why play Actua Soccer 3 when I've got Pro Evolution 4 here beside me?

It's just a case of sour grapes from Mr Ouzts, his fifteen year old game is one he'd rather keep all to himself than let others enjoy work that simply can't be found without specifically looking for the product in question (which is unlikely, let's face it).

[oNyx]

[...]
If you go out and buy Animal Crossing to play on your PC using an emulator Nintendo have lost money by you not buying a console. (Granted consoles are usually sold at a loss but there would be some income from them.)
[...]

Nintendo never sold hardware at a loss.

And contacting the current copyright holders isn't that easy. Often even the companies themselves aren't sure if they still hold the copyright or not.

[Armsfeld]

Legally, the Underdogs doesn't have the right to distribute abandonware. Copyright law is getting tight lately (more (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html)). However, as I understand copyright law, youjust need to have a notice that you'll take it down if it violates copyright law. If you're interested, read more about the DMCA Safe Harbor (http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512/) provisions.

Your reckless enthusiasm for legal correctness is a little misplaced, arcadetown. The Underdogs is the museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_of_the_Underdogs) of much of our history, foo.

[Nexic]

If I didnt know about the underdogs before I read about the article I would have had the same reaction as brian (arcadetown). However I find Underdogs a very useful site. If it wasnt there I'd never be able to play my old favourites!

I don't think the whole site should be deleted, as some or most of their titles have actually had permission from the copyright owner.

[Andy]

Guys! Am I on pirates' forum or what? :confused: Are you crazy?!

Nexic! (excuse me - just the first I see for example ;) ) Imagine I take a look on your Xeno II and consider by myself that it is outdated enough - two months old! I was waiting more than enough! - and I break it and give it away for free from our site. What would be your reaction?

Who gets the right except the right owner to consider what is "abandonware" and what is not?

This is the very first trick any pirate uses to explain their actions to public - "they are selling thier game the whole year, they got more than enough from it!" I've heard that amount of time when was discussing with that bulls..tters

That guys (with heading gal) are pirates. And the article gives 100% approve on that. Pirate site obviously should be closed. What are you discussing here? You want to play your old favorites etc. etc. And so what? :confused:

Just my two cents. :(

[yanuart]

well, I'm not sure about what underdog intention at a first place, is it :
a. I want to create a site to collect rarities games so that everyone can enjoy
b. I want to create a site to make more money and I know ppl loves old games so heck, I just put lots of them on my site and hehehe I call them abandonware so I want get sued.

which one do you think is the initial intention ? omg the site's full with banners ads :D

the tricky part about vintage software is that there are no tangible media involved,this is alot different with things like comics, books or other stuffs where an antiques item is actually an item you pass&trade along.

So I think there's no such thing as abandonware just because it isn't being published anymore, as long there's still a copy left and ppl using it it is just an actual software but wether it's still commercial or not that depends trully to the author and rightful owner of the software.

Another thing.. I really like the idea of how a game can only be known from its screenshot and old time reviews cause that the actual reminisence of a game.. that's the ultimate way to create a museum of games not providing the game to be downloaded freely bah..

i think the site's wrong though, the right way to do it is to ask permission first before providing any files to be downloaded or create a site and actually ask the owner to provide/submit his work that way the game will automatically be a "FREEWARE" thus free of any infringement.

[papillon]

Who gets the right except the right owner to consider what is "abandonware" and what is not?


Uh, well... it NOT BEING FOR SALE would be the first sign.

That guy's article never even mentioned if his product he was complaining about is actually on sale or not. In fact, it sort of implies that it isn't, since he says he usually only searches for his CURRENT product.

Underdogs is not about taking the latest game and releasing free copies of it. They will sometimes put up LINKS to the latest indie game if they think it's cool - for instance, they have an entry for Gish. They are not offering free copies of it, they are promoting it and linking to the site to buy it. They are ADVERTISING it. http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=4863

Pirates do come to the forum and whine "hey where can I download bettys beer bar full free?" and stuff like that. Their posts are locked, deleted, banned, etc. That's not what the site is for.

Now, in years to come, should Gish cease to be available for sale, they will probably put up a copy of it, since they already have an entry for the game.

Do you think all libraries should be shut down, Andy?


I really like the idea of how a game can only be known from its screenshot and old time reviews cause that the actual reminisence of a game.. that's the ultimate way to create a museum of games not providing the game to be downloaded freely bah..


So... it would be better if we didn't have the actual text of Shakespeare anymore and just studied how great everyone said it was?

I'm not saying TU is completely in the right. It's a very murky area. But nobody wins if old games are lost forever.

(As for museums, there's actually a kind of neat computer museum at Bletchley Park that has ancient games set up on many of the ancient machines... No games on the punch card reader, though. :) )

[luggage]

but it's not that simple. Quite often it's difficult to find out who actually holds the copyright. Check out the ongoing battle regarding Elite between Braben and Bell. They're the 2 guys responsible for it and even they can't decide.

Another thing.. I really like the idea of how a game can only be known from its screenshot and old time reviews cause that the actual reminisence of a game.. that's the ultimate way to create a museum of games not providing the game to be downloaded freely bah..

So old films would be better filed away and we just get the odd static shot for people to look at - oh, and maybe a film review from the 1920's. Great. And that's not even an interactive media

How about classical music? Should we just file it away and give a review of that or do you think the music is kept alive by people still playing it. *shock* and they don't actually pay to play it!

Come on people - let's get off our high horse (as most of us have) - we know the underdogs aren't the same as a site selling pirated games that are 2 months old. Let's not compare them with that.

And for those that still think the underdogs are nasty evil people - how do you propose preserve the video game history? As I said, quite often you don't know who to turn to for copyright. One game I worked on the developer has totally gone, the publishers has totally gone - where do you go? The game would just be dead and forgotten.

[Nauris]

Guys! Am I on pirates' forum or what? :confused: Are you crazy?!

Nexic! (excuse me - just the first I see for example ;) ) Imagine I take a look on your Xeno II and consider by myself that it is outdated enough - two months old! I was waiting more than enough! - and I break it and give it away for free from our site. What would be your reaction?(


Not really a correct example, not at all. You`ll not find two months old commercial release there. I havent stumbled upon a year old release either. or two year old one, for that matter.

Also, I really doubt that Underdogs is a money machine. Devs here of all people should know what bandwidth costs are. And you`re not even running a portal where some stuff runs into hundreds of megabytes.
I hadnt been in Underdogs for about half a year, so i was surprised hearing about banners everywhere, they definitely were not there before, it seems like scraping a barrel, because whatever banners are, they are not huge income-bringers.

It seems that everyone sees in Underdogs what he wants to see. You - evil cocky warezing teens who giggle maliciously after each download, I - a perfect gallery of videogames throughout the "ages". Its the only such place on the Net, for christsakes - apart from Mobygames, self-proclaimed historians, who actually are several levels beneath.

It really bugs me - there are tons of real warez sites, offering the latest stuff and doing nothing but breeding ignorant brats with 1337 skillz. And then there`s Underdogs where, if you were asking for some game in the forums, people would first google net for places where to buy it legally and post you the links. Where you can find tens of games you have never heard about because of flakey marketing or simply because they were too original.
Where *gasps* they even remove download if you send them an email.

And with all that, you dont see any difference and are all over Underdogs with red-hot chainsaw...

The fact is - if something happened and Undersogs database was pulled down, videogame industry would actually be the loser.
For me, it would be like setting fire to library.

[Martoon]

I think Mr. Ouzts had a knee-jerk reaction to what he perceived as blatant destructive piracy. He had invested a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into a product, and had been burned by pirates in the past, and was understandably upset about that.

Unfortunately, in his blind rage, he completely misunderstood what HOTU is all about, and leapt to the assumption that these were evil pirates and he needed to take legal action. He obviously spent some time researching them (he refers to various articles), but still completely missed the point. If he had an open mind and really wanted to make his game (and his future games) as successful as possible, he would have recognized that:

1. HOTU doesn't list just any game, but specifically focuses on games that they feel were very good, but under-recognized. The fact that they listed his game is a compliment.
2. If HOTU finds out that a game is still available for sale, not only do they remove the download link, but they link to where you can buy the game. Clearly they're not just pirates trying to subvert the legitimate sale of games. If Mr. Ouzts really wanted to maximize sales, he would have provided them with a link to his site, instead of having them remove a good sales channel.

Admittedly, HOTU could do a little better in determining if and where a game is still available for sale before listing it (I think they do try, but they could probably try a little harder). But overall, I think they provide an extremely valuable service.

[Andy]

Not really a correct example, not at all. You`ll not find two months old commercial release there. I havent stumbled upon a year old release either. or two year old one, for that matter.

Who decides what is approriate time Nauris? Underdogs? :confused:

The fact that they listed his game is a compliment.

Well. OK. That's exactly the clue. Tomorrow we will break all Reflexive's and Retro games and place them onto our site to give away for free to all our visitors. We will get to aims in a time - make them compliments and use their great successful titles to promote our own.

Return to reality guys! You defend the pirates.

[Hamumu]

Personally, I think copyrights matter, but that's just me. I'd like them not to last nearly so long after death, and I think people should release things into public domain when they no longer benefit from them, but I'm not going to force them to with my awesome powers of SuperEthics that overrule anyone else's freedom. So maybe, just maybe, I'd like to maintain control over my own copyrights.

One question: if 100 sites on the internet had my game up, and a nice big red notice that says "If you don't want us giving this away, just send an email"... is it STILL my responsibility to contact them all, or are they perhaps doing something wrong? At what point do I get to control my IP?

[Armsfeld]

It's time to learn the difference between pirates and curators.

cu·ra·tor n.
1. One who manages or oversees, as the administrative director of a museum collection or a library.

pi·rate n.
3. One who makes use of or reproduces the work of another without authorization.

Yes, there is sometimes an overlap. No, you should not attack the museum or library. Only philistines do that.

One last step. Read about HOTU. Wired (http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,62975,00.html?tw=wn_story_related) has a good introductory article. HOTU is a charitable project supported by donations. All serious game designers should know about HOTU, just like all students should know about the library. It's that simple.

If any other site distributed your game, that might be worth your razz. If HOTU does it, you don't snarl at the overworked curator. You just politely notify them of the error.

[GBGames]

Has anyone here read Free Culture by Lawrence Lessig? If property owners always had their way, airplanes wouldn't be what they are today. Neither would Hollywood, or the music industry. It has been argued that piracy is the reason why such major industries exist.

Land used to be considered not just the ground, but the air above it. There were actual court battles to decide whether or not an airplane would be guilty of multiple counts of trespassing by flying over a number of properties. Luckily, "common sense" decided that this would be a problem. Property owners gave up what was legally theirs to allow the technology to develop. It was "piracy".

Who invented the motion picture camera? Edison. He had patents. You wanted to buy a camera to make movies? It had to be licensed...unless you escaped to California where the US marshalls didn't have any reach. Hollywood was born from "piracy".

Recording artists similarly were able to take what was someone else's and build an entire business around it. Cover songs are possible because of exceptions in the monopoly of copyright laws. "Piracy" at work again.

So before everyone starts getting up in arms about how horrible it is for the-underdogs to technically be pirating these works, please note that what is technically defined by law isn't always "common sense" and gets revised. The land owners, Edison's company, and the musicians all complained that their rights were being infringed, and legally they were right. It is ironic that Hollywood especially makes such a big deal about piracy since its birth was the most blatant form of it. Unfortunately these days the balance between copyright owners and the public is skewed over too far to the owners, and lobbyists like the RIAA/MPAA/BSA/etc are making sure it stays that way.

Andy, "breaking" someone's games and putting them up somewhere, knowing full well that they are actively selling them, is not the same as the underdogs posting games that aren't being sold anymore. Have you been to archive.org? Piracy. How could anyone take not just the work of one website but all of them?! But does it serve a greater good? Yes. The history of the web and television are both changing too often, and there is no real archive to check on. archive.org fills that void. Similarly, the underdogs do so for video games.

Yes, they should ask for permission, but when permission isn't possible (say the original author disappeared from the face of the earth), what are we supposed to do? Lose history for the sake of complying with the law? Please.

[luggage]

but if the game was on 100+ sites for sale it won't be available for download on underdogs.

They do make some effort you realise.

[GBGames]

is it STILL my responsibility to contact them all, or are they perhaps doing something wrong? At what point do I get to control my IP?

Yes, it is your responsibility. You have control over your IP from the moment you create it. If only one site redistributes it illegally, would it be any less your responsibility to do something about it?

No, those 100 sites shouldn't be redistributing your works. But just claiming that they shouldn't doesn't mean squat unless you do something about it.

[Vectrex]

"Nexic! Imagine I take a look on your Xeno II and consider by myself that it is outdated enough - two months old! I was waiting more than enough! - and I break it and give it away for free from our site. What would be your reaction?"

you're clearly barking up the wrong tree (excuse the pun ;) ) We're talking about the HOTD site and they would never have that for download, because A) it's still for sale B) it's not a classic/significant (no offence Nexic ;) )

A few examples

A) Powerslide, an utter classic race game from 98 which is not avaliable for purchase = download + links to publishers site (promoting their new games which ARE for sale, not to mention I found out because of it that powerslide 2 is coming which I WILL buy.. see how it works? :) )

B) Insane, another classic race game from the same period = no download
+ link to codemasters online store because codemasters choose to hold their IP for everything they've ever done... forever.

C) Doom, isn't on there at all, hence the 'underdogs' bit.

not to mention alot of the games have permission to be there so shutting it down is like bulldozing mueseums because alot of artifacts in them were gathered under dubious circumstances.

"Who decides what is approriate time Nauris? Underdogs? ".. now you've got the wrong end of the stick AND are barking up the wrong tree :D

[luggage]

For that matter how many of you complain about Google taking a 'copy' of your website?

[Hamumu]

That's what I was saying, GBGames - By "my responsibility", I meant that people here are saying HOTU is doing nothing wrong because it has a notice to contact them if you want it taken down. That's ludicrous. It's HOTU's responsibility to ASK ME FOR IT. If you want my stuff, don't steal it, ask for it. It's such an insanely simple, moral, logical concept that the overwrought artistic defense just blows me away.

Dungeon Keeper is available for download on HOTU. Don't tell me the copyright holders are too hard to find! Not that difficulty of finding is an excuse - the burden is on the person who wants to have the IP to take the steps to get it.

If you want a museum, an archive, make one. Don't share it with everyone and break the law. It's perfectly legal to keep your own copies of outdated games. The concept that doing this (giving them away) is somehow archiving something that would otherwise be lost is ridiculous. You can archive without exhibiting, it's actually even easier. You could even have a traveling road show, like the old arcade games do, to let people enjoy these classics - to play YOUR copy of them, not give away free copies. Or an actual, real, museum exhibit where people can play them.

Anyway, everybody's got their own ideas, and the flames will only burn higher as the thread goes on. I just wanted to come by to help support the few who believe that nobody can arbitrarily appoint themselves master of the universe (right, I mean everybody keeps saying HOTU follows a specific code of conduct, but that code isn't the law, it's one HOTU made up, but apparently that's good enough). I like Lawrence Lessig and agree with much of his thinking. Notice that he is actually fighting the government trying to get copyright laws reformed. He's not sitting around stealing video games.

[yanuart]

So old films would be better filed away and we just get the odd static shot for people to look at - oh, and maybe a film review from the 1920's. Great. And that's not even an interactive media
How about classical music? Should we just file it away and give a review of that or do you think the music is kept alive by people still playing it. *shock* and they don't actually pay to play it!
another quote ...

So... it would be better if we didn't have the actual text of Shakespeare anymore and just studied how great everyone said it was?

you guys totally missing my points which I'm kinda sad since we all are developers.
Don't you get it ?? when "things" is still around to be experienced by people it means that the thing isn't ancient/extinct enough to be put into museum/national archives thus any activities on duplicating,distributing or whatever it without the rightful owner permission is wrong even if the owner's dead :D.

If you think that way then you shouldn't pay for beethoven's music, old james bond movies and heck I'll set up a publishing company specialized in publishing old contents *shock*.
If a shakespeare's descendant is still alive and suddenly say "I want a royalty on every published shakespeare materials and any website containing shakespeare poets without permission to be banned" I bet any judge will allow him to do so even if that'll make him the biggest prick in the literature world. The same thing goes to bethoven's descendant or tolkien's descendant hehe

Now comes the tricky part, when I said that a game should be reminded by its screenshots, it means that the game is allready vanished thus makes it memorable or that's the only way to do it. Games doesn't get old by time, it doesn't have physical properties that'll detoriate in times, just like music or words in poets.

I think it's noble if you want to let other ppl experienced the media but the gray part is "How you share the experienced a SOFTWARE ?", a software is way more different than movies or poets or music in a sense that there isn't any tangible media that comes along with it.

Let's talk about movies first.. are you allowed to set up a website filled with mpegs of old movies ? mp3s of elvis's song ? do that and soon you'll get your ass sued. So you can only put screenshots and reviews and maybe the storyline but wait there's a way to let ppl experience it the ultimate way, set up an old movie cinema where ppl can see it from your own private collection (altough I'm not sure you can do it either).
Same things goes with music & literatures.. yes there's library but can you copy a book from a library and distribute it ? In fact in my university there's a restriction to copy several books and they're for the purpose of read-in-place only (for legal matters not bcoz they only got one copy left :D ).

Now, let's go back to video games a.k.a software, yes, it'll be so sad just to be able to see screenshots, you need the program and run it on your own, you won't get the experience just by seeing screenshots but so far i think that's the only way to do it "IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DISTRIBUTE IT FREELY".

Why ? because software is so easy to be copied and distributed, if you love an old game and put so much respect in it or the guy who made it, you sure don't want the game to be wrongfully distribute it right ? thus you must carefully and thoughtfully think about it.. You can just go naive by saying I'm doing it for the world..

I once made a fansite about this obscured band who I think plays a great music, the only thing I can put there is their pictures and biography, I can't put their music on my site even though I know no one will notice. I tried contacting them to get permission but they never reply.. so that's their lost, for my part I did everything i could and yes it really is sad cause I can share my love of their music with others.

Now that's for the HOTU's part which I find wrong :confused: I'm not saying that their intention is wrong, in fact I really love the idea and support them 100% if they're doing it rightfully and you can't blame the guy who sued them.. the guy have every right to do so.. hey, if the guy want his game to extinct to oblivion he has all the right to do so, right ??? if you think he's a prick for not letting his game to be spread around in the name of game history then he still has the right to do so.

Uh, well... it NOT BEING FOR SALE would be the first sign.
Again I like to say that there's no such thing as an automatic "ABANDONWARE" status just because the software isn't being published anymore or bcause the game isn't actually making any money, don't you get it ??.

If HOTU realy want to make an archive of games ever existed then it should make a list of games along with screenshot collections,reviews, etc and put "We would like the developer of this game to submit his work and permission so we can put it to be downloaded freely for the world to experience"

I bet as the site grows bigger and bigger many ancient developers who love to share their games to the world will submit a copy their games.

nuff said... i hope u get my idea

[luggage]

Don't you get it ?? when "things" is still around to be experienced by people it means that the thing isn't ancient/extinct enough to be put into museum/national archives thus any activities on duplicating,distributing or whatever it without the rightful owner permission is wrong even if the owner's dead
With video games by then it's too late! Experience is part of a video game.

activities on duplicating,distributing or whatever it without the rightful owner permission is wrong even if the owner's dead
What about prints of masterpieces? And I suppose people selling them are evil as well? *gasp* they're making money out of someone else's hard work!

[papillon]

I know there isn't a legal abandonware status, I'm just pointing out that Andy keeps saying that they just magically decide that your game is old enough to be put up for free. Which is completely untrue. They put up your game because it is not for sale, not because it is 1 year 5 days past its release date.

I'd be happy to call for the end of The Underdogs if a legal, reliable system such as libraries were in place for the preservation and presentation of old games. If some agency were making an effort to gather the great works of the past and make them available for others to see - and maybe only available by visiting your local Game Library - then there wouldn't be such a need. But as it is, these works are often (particularly 'underdogs' that may not have been widely distributed in the first place) in danger of disappearing.

Strangely, the complete disappearance of works of art doesn't seem to matter to you. You say that as long as ONE COPY of a game still exists in a player's hands then it's not old enough or extinct enough to be preserved, and then you say that as soon as that last copy is destroyed it's GOOD for us to remember it only by the screenshots and reviews?

[Andy]

Anyway, everybody's got their own ideas, and the flames will only burn higher as the thread goes on.

Oll korrect Mike. You just explain me now how that could be so? Are they blind to not see how different pirates use different mimicria? All that peer-to-peer, archive copies, now libraries... :confused:
Or that just double standards - to scream about piracy when they hear any word about Russia or China (don't think I defend them!) but defend their own.
Or they can't read or prefer to not read Advertise page of Underdogs for example: http://www.the-underdogs.org/advertise.php
(about their free staff and educating status)
Miracle... :confused:

OK. My story.
1. Long four years we are searching for a chance to publish on our site the free update for Pinball Arcade game we were developing for MS. With our own games you could imagine what that would mean for us to collect back at least part of that audience.
2. Long eight years we are searching for a chance to publish good pinball simulation package based on real tables of Williams company - the predefined hit with the level of our pinball simulation engine.
And we are still missing both opportunities - you know why? Because we respect efforts and copyrights of another peoples and another company and don't like to act against the current law - doesn't matter if we like it or not. Because this is not fair to remember or forget about the law (any law) according with your current needs. You either respect the law and wait the same from it or you are not.

[GBGames]

If a shakespeare's descendant is still alive and suddenly say "I want a royalty on every published shakespeare materials and any website containing shakespeare poets without permission to be banned" I bet any judge will allow him to do so even if that'll make him the biggest prick in the literature world. The same thing goes to bethoven's descendant or tolkien's descendant hehe


Um, no. When copyright expires, it is in the public domain. It's been this way for a number of years. Public domain means I have the right to create works based on it. Example: Walt Disney making a lot of money remaking fairy tales written originally by the Brothers Grimm.

And anyone can reproduce Shakespeare. If this wasn't the case, no one would be able to read it as they do. Someone would have already tried to ask for royalties. In fact, they did do just that for a long time because copyright in England was forever until they passed a new law saying otherwise.

As for morals, you can't seriously argue that it is morally wrong to copy something that is someone else's without clarifying whether or not the something is protected under copyright. The Lord of the Rings is still protected. Shakespeare is not. I can reproduce Shakespeare all I want. I can reproduce Flatland all I want. The Lord of the Rings is off-limits by law. No judge who knows the law in even the basic sense would give the descendents any right to collect royalties on public domain works.

[GBGames]

Oll korrect Mike. You just explain me now how that could be so? Are they blind to not see how different pirates use different mimicria? All that peer-to-peer, archive copies, now libraries... :confused:
Or that just double standards - to scream about piracy when they hear any word about Russia or China (don't think I defend them!) but defend their own.
Or they can't read or prefer to not read Advertise page of Underdogs for example: http://www.the-underdogs.org/advertise.php
(about their free staff and educating status)
Miracle... :confused:

...

You either respect the law and wait the same from it or you are not.

Do you know why we have libraries? Or copyrights in the first place? To advance our knowledge in the sciences and arts. It isn't primarily to protect creators. So it isn't too crazy to link piracy with libraries because essentially they are just legalized piracy. Anyone can read any book, watch any movie, listen to any audio recording, etc without paying for it. What about the rights of the author now?

Regarding the respect the law line: copyright isn't a natural right. The law regarding it can be revoked or changed depending on the needs of a nation. It used to be a legal problem (and I guess therefore not moral according to some people) for you to play a record on the radio. That's a public performance, and the copyright owner had the exclusive rights to it. It changed. Did the morality of it change? No, the law did. People didn't wait to respect the law. It changed to make sense for them.

[milieu]

Or that just double standards - to scream about piracy when they hear any word about Russia or China (don't think I defend them!) but defend their own.
OK, enough with the straw man. The pirates, whether in China, Russia, or other countries, are stealing games on release or even before. This immediately impacts the revenue of the company. In some countries, games are openly sold on the streets with complete packaging and manuals...how can a company compete with illegal copies that cost $1?

The Underdogs only list games that are no longer available, and over 5 years old. They remove games upon request. They list links to where you can buy the game if it is available anywhere. These are games that are no longer sold, supported, or patched. In many cases, the original copyright holders are companies that have gone under. The companies are not making money, and never will. The only "lost revenue" for them is the cost of a missed sale because they choose not to service this market.

There is a big difference between pirates and the Underdogs. Is what the Underdogs doing legal? No, but to equate them with day 1 warez is a gross exaggeration.

[GBGames]

There is a big difference between pirates and the Underdogs. Is what the Underdogs doing legal? No, but to equate them with day 1 warez is a gross exaggeration.

I need to learn to say a lot with a little.

[yanuart]

What about prints of masterpieces? And I suppose people selling them are evil as well? *gasp* they're making money out of someone else's hard work!
are u suggesting that the original monet hanging in the louvre is the same as the 2$ printed version of it just because the picture is the same :confused: like I said before software is alot different since there's no tangible media that comes along with it.
A copy on a floppy disk, on CD or on some site is basically the same in the case of software, dyou get my point ?.
and yes, if you're a painter of an obscured painting and died but ur son see that ur work is being duplicated as a cover of a book or something ur son have every right to make a case.

Um, no. When copyright expires, it is in the public domain.
when does one copyright expires ? AFAIK it can even be inteherited to your ancestor .. on the other hand patents and trademarks have a certain period of time.

I waste too much time here.. like I said I'm not against the idea of HOTU but i think what they did can cause infringement and the fact I get cynical after I went to the site :
1. There r many banner ads (4-5 on the same page)
2. There's a protection method to download, I bet they did it cause they don't want everybody 2 hotlink/leech the games but isn't the intention is to spread around these old games ? which come point #3
3. They feel like their collection is a property of theirs not public
4. Bandwith cost ?? bah.. it's the cheapest excuse ever.. don't you think they should calculate first when they start a site that host files to be downloaded ? which come my last point
5. Probably they're doing it for the money since the beginning.

If there's an idea to preserve old software/games, don't you think it must come from the industry itself ? heck if the guys in the industry don't even care (by suing you like that), what can we do ?
I know that as a fan you want to preserve things you love and you'll be so pissed if someone says that what you did is wrong (this is probably the kinda attitude around here) but hey you should really be careful & thoughtful these days.

[Anthony Flack]

I'm so glad you guys are piping up here. I wouldn't want to have to fight all these straw men on my own.

A few random additions to poke into the argument:

Yep, read Lessig's book. It has a whole chapter on the difficulties faced by archivists and historians these days, I believe. It would be painfully ironic for future generations to look back on this period and say that we had, for the first time, the ability to record and archive our culture with total fidelity, and yet most of it was still lost because of copyright wrangles. Oh well.

However, one thing he gets wrong is Edison's claim to have invented motion pictures. He claimed to have done so, and certainly some people working for him added key refinements to the mechanism (for which they had no claim of ownership; most of "Edison's" patents were actually the inventions of his employees, much like today). But the fact that motion pictures were simultaneously developed by others such as the Lumiere brothers in France (although they called it "cinema"), meant that while Edison was able to obtain a US patent, rather dubiously (much like today), and use it to ruthlessly crush competition and innovation in the industry (much like today), he never even filed for an international patent. He knew his claim was illegitimate.

As for curators, and archives - they tend to be accessible to the public, have you noticed? Aren't they pretty much always available for the public to access?

[Anthony Flack]

when does one copyright expires ? AFAIK it can even be inteherited to your ancestor .. on the other hand patents and trademarks have a certain period of time.

This demonstrates an absolutely flabbergasting ignorance of the law. Please go and read Lessig's book as a primer (it's called Free Culture and you can go download it right now for free). Then when you come back you might have at least some idea of what you're talking about.

Seriously.

[papillon]

Some of the anti-hotlinking protection came about because a pirate site was trying to "sell" the old games and then after taking the money send you the direct Underdogs file link that you could have gotten free. TU was NOT pleased about that. :) (Being scum, the pirate site continued taking money long after the protections were put in place to stop the hotlinking. Almost makes you wonder why they bothered linking the files in the first place, if they were perfectly happy to take the money and give you nothing in return...)

Copyright does currently expire. Although if Disney has their way they will keep extending it to infinity and it will no longer do so. Which is a pain because there's some very elderly books that are *right* at the beginning of the time period in discussion that I'd like to OCR and pass around for discussion (the physical books are starting to fall apart, too). But it's too up in the air to say anything definite about.

Musical compositions don't have tangible media... a book doesn't *necessarily* have tangible media... and while a $2 print is not the same as the original, an artist would be pretty upset if you immediately started producing knockoff prints of his latest work without permission. :) The exactness of the copy really isn't the issue. (However, if the original is lost in a fire, having those prints around is helpful!)

Copyright is CONFUSING. Music is even worse once you start getting into original composition copyright vs arrangement copyright vs what *constitutes* an arrangement and oh, my aching head...

[Anthony Flack]

Oh that's right, you've got a background in composition, haven't you? How about that Brahms, eh?

Well, I guess Brahms is part of the other copyright argument - reappropriation, rather than curation. Um, anyway... Round 3... FIGHT!

[yanuart]

hmm yeah.. sorry bout that... it seems that copyright does expire automatically like in Life + 60-70 years or so (if the form is in tangible media.. hmm what about software? maybe I should learn more).
I dunno I'm not a lawyer and I just dug this up on inet (which I'm sure it'll be different in other countries) :D but that's a pretty long time for me and it seems that HOTU can only display games which r made in 1920's hehe.

Some of the anti-hotlinking protection came about because a pirate site was trying to "sell" the old games and then after taking the money send you the direct Underdogs file link that you could have gotten free. TU was NOT pleased about that.
what makes a pirate stop downloading a single copy (it's very easy) and host/redistribute it themself? I think it's more like "hey don't make money more than we do", if HOTU really concerned about how a pirate can sell the games then maybe they shouldn't do it for the sake of the developers and their own cause they should've know by now that nothing can stop piracy.
If a 1990 NES game can still be traded legally at a retroshop than why PC games can't?

again... i think the site itself is a great idea, i'm not bashing the idea but i'm criticising their way and take a side next to the guy who made iPoker :D.
If HOTU don't use so much banner ads and run purely on voluntary donations I may think that it's just an honest mistake.
Hey I have an idea.. why not make a site that stores/displays all the "extinct" indie games ? of course only if the developers submit their games themself ;)

[luggage]

dunno I'm not a lawyer and I just dug this up on inet (which I'm sure it'll be different in other countries) but that's a pretty long time for me and it seems that HOTU can only display games which r made in 1920's hehe.That's the trouble - the current law doesn't apply well to video games. If we were to wait until the copyright was up then it would be too late. If I hand someone a C64 tape in 60 years time odds are they won't get it working. Then what good will a collection of tapes be? We'd have preserved nothing. And when should the copyright expire? 60 years after the death of the coder? artist? producer? 60 years after the death of the last employee of the publisher?

what makes a pirate stop downloading a single copy (it's very easy) and host/redistribute it themself? I think it's more like "hey don't make money more than we do", And as well all know pirates do this with current games. Your point being?

If a 1990 NES game can still be traded legally at a retroshop than why PC games can't?And so what you're saying is that no-one should collect these old games while it's still possible to sell them second hand? So when there's absolutely none available, no second hand copies, only then is it ok to archive them? Precisely when it's too late?

again... i think the site itself is a great idea, i'm not bashing the idea but i'm criticising their way and take a side next to the guy who made iPoker .
You are bashing the idea though. As everyone has mentioned - what the underdog's does is illegal - you're (apparently) against the illegality of it. Trouble is there's no way under current law that they can do what they do. By the time the copyright has expired it'll be too late. It's difficult enough at the moment to find copyright holders to lots of games. What the underdogs shouldn't do is give away items that are still for sale and this is what they try not to do.

If HOTU don't use so much banner ads and run purely on voluntary donations I may think that it's just an honest mistake. Now it becomes a little clearer - you're annoyed because you think they might be making money off this. Should librarians be paid? curators? I wouldn't like to imagine what their costs are per month? What happens if they have to close the site down and all that archive is lost forever because there's aren't enough donations?

Hey I have an idea.. why not make a site that stores/displays all the "extinct" indie games ? of course only if the developers submit their games themself And if the developers aren't available to submit their games what then? Do we just let them vanish forever?

As has been pointed out if you can't see the difference between what the underdogs are trying to do and a site dealing in warez then you'll never change your mind.

How would you go about archiving games like the underdogs are?

[arcadetown]

I can't tell you how many online game developers we've licensed games from that express huge frustration about their property being outright stolen by other webmasters simply because they felt it met their criteria (some innocently think it's freeware, some are more nefarious). Seems many people's opinions here are the end justifies the means and intellectual property rights have little meaning once you put it on a computer. Wow, if game authors cannot agree upon what property rights are then why should the rest of the population out there care?

[Fry Crayola]

There is a difference here though. The vast majority of the games on the Underdogs were commercial releases that are no longer available anywhere beyond second hand.

Meanwhile, games that you find being treated as freeware by some folk, but are sold as shareware via the company's website would never make it onto the Underdogs - they're still being sold.

The Underdogs is a way of getting games that you simply cannot get hold of any way at all, and the current copyright holders can put a stop to that if they wish. And it's not as though they don't know of the existence of the site - it's quite popular.

[Andy]

Wow, if game authors cannot agree upon what property rights are then why should the rest of the population out there care?

Yeah, Brian. Saying honestly I just can't get a clue what a discussion on issue could appear here - in GAME DEVELOPERS forums. :confused:
I've figured out though that most of defenders are really either not published THEIR OWN game yet or have sold them for flat fee and don't care about the fact how it go any more (we'll see what would be on Cletus Anthony ;-) and how quickly you will change your opinion :D )

A little bit about "outdated" tricks. Well so following by your logic milieu this is OK for you to kill elder peoples because they already were living enough. And who will determine the age when it would be OK. :)
And don't say me about the straw MAN. This should be obvious logic and relations here. To kill - is against the law. To steal software is against the law too. But when the subject is outdated it is OK for some of you - no?

[botman]

Heh, the guy is using Apple graphics on his website for the navigation bar. Are they not copyrighted? :D

Personally I love The Underdogs, as I can download the old Amiga games I used to play as a kid.

[Nauris]

A little bit about "outdated" tricks. Well so following by your logic milieu this is OK for you to kill elder peoples because they already were living enough. And who will determine the age when it would be OK. :)

Wow, that example just doesnt make sense to me. At all.
Well, anyway, it seems everyone is entrenched here and no big shifts in fronts are forseeable.

And about your confusion of how there could be any such discussion in game dev forums - perhaps developers here simply do not feel threatened by Underdogs. Its that simple - new commercial releases are not hosted there, even really old ones are removed as soon as developer simply shoots a mail.
All this energy wasted in discussion could as well be channeled into fighting real threats.

[Ricardo C]

A little bit about "outdated" tricks. Well so following by your logic milieu this is OK for you to kill elder peoples because they already were living enough. And who will determine the age when it would be OK.
And don't say me about the straw MAN.

I won't say anything about the straw man. But only because you are now using a slippery slope to make whatever it is you're trying to pass off as a point.

[yanuart]

That's the trouble - the current law doesn't apply well to video games. If we were to wait until the copyright was up then it would be too late.
yup.. that's why we need to continue to bring the subject to a wider audience. Anyone joined IGDA or GDC ?? It may be a good subject to discuss.


my point is, if the intention is so noble then the guy/girl should think about protecting the games from the hands of pirates and the only way to do that is not having it to be downloaded.
And it makes me think that the guy thinks that the games belong to him (u can only download it through our website) which are totally not.

[QUOTE]And so what you're saying is that no-one should collect these old games while it's still possible to sell them second hand?
dude.. of course everybody can collect old games or even sell them on ebay on a personal basis, what is not right is to spread them around without the makers consent.

Now it becomes a little clearer - you're annoyed because you think they might be making money off this. Should librarians be paid? curators? I wouldn't like to imagine what their costs are per month? What happens if they have to close the site down and all that archive is lost forever because there's aren't enough donations?
I'm annoyed if the guy hide behind a noble cause just to find another way to make a fortune, that's just me being all cynical!! Yup libraries and other public services need money to run but they're for the social service purpose with the right kind of funding, nobody makes a library to make fortune right ? that'll make it a business entity thus it's rental not a library :)
no, the archive won't be lost nor the game, it's just not for public anymore.

How would you go about archiving games like the underdogs are?
I'd put this :
Title : FlipWord
Developer : BigFizz
Release Date : .. ?? RIP : ...???
Review : an excellent game.. n so on n so on
Screenshots / Media : ........
How to get it :
- We still can't contact the developer of the game for the permission to put this game on public. This game is part of gaming history so we would like to give an opportunity for the world to see so if you happen to know the developer or any rightful owner who can submit the game legally please tell them about our site so they can make contribution to gaming community.
By submitting a game means the game will be put on public domain for everyone to see. we do not take profit or held responsible for.. bla bal bla.. see our terms n condition.. n so on n so on.

and not

- Download here. If you don't want your game to be listed here please contact us, we'll remove it immediately.

Can you see the difference ?

"The game is not on sale anymore" is not a good standard to decide the status of a game. Not on sale where ?? on ur town ? on ur country ? what if people still trading it as rarities on ebay ?
does this means I can scan XMen volume 1 on put it on website for everyone to see, cause obviously marvel isn't publishing it anymore and I'm afraid the last owner of the edition's house caught on fire (ok bad example cause marvel still reprint the comic but I'm talking about the original version :D )

Doesn't it intrigue you that the guy who made iPoker went all the trouble of going to court if he should/could think the site is for a noble cause ?

Hey let me put it this way, if I host your obsolete game and I got 3K downloads a month, I'll think that you still have a chance on scoring something with your game and I don't want to take your right on capitalizing your game.
If I get 100$ for banner ads cause alot of ppl go to my site to download ur obsolete game then I'll think that the money don't belong to me, it's ur game that makes ppl come to my site therefor i really need to ask ur permission first.

anyway.. i realize i've spent too much time here :D
** must finish the game... stop lurking in forum **

[papillon]

There's clearly no point responding to Andy, since either a language problem or sheer stubbornness is making him miss the very obvious no matter how many times it's restated, so moving on... :)


what makes a pirate stop downloading a single copy (it's very easy) and host/redistribute it themself?


Nothing, obviously. But the jerks in question were trying to scam a quick buck. Not in doing anything resembling running a business. And hosting the downloads themselves and managing the bandwidth fees themselves would have required some actual WORK on their part. I don't remember the name of the site anymore, but I wouldn't have been surprised if the site itself were jammed onto a freehost. They wanted everything for nothing.

As you probably know, few pirates are willing to host full-download games themselves. They don't want to spend the money to do it. If they trade full games, they do it over ratio-FTP servers, or kazaa.


If a 1990 NES game can still be traded legally at a retroshop than why PC games can't?


Because the stores refuse to take them?

Just about any store I've ever been to *will not accept* used PC games, claiming piracy concerns. ("You might have kept the backup!") You can manage to get old software on eBay, but supposedly those sometimes get shut down too, same reason.

[KNau]

The trouble is on one side you have too many users who think everything should be posted to the web and given away for free. Just because you want it doesn't mean you have a right to it, even if it's old. Underdogs kind of crossed the line when they went "pro" selling shareware games and advertising. Now they are a business, plain and simple and that makes them more accountable.

On the other side you have copyright holders who refuse to acknowledge when a revenue stream has ended. I like the example of Dizzy. Sure, Codemasters may release a new Dizzy game for the modern market (if they like losing money on doomed projects, that is) but the revenue stream from the original C64 files is dead. Having the originals available for download isn't going to effect sales of a new game in any negative way.

In the middle of all this you have the sensible (but silent) majority who know the line and when it's been crossed and still appreciate the work done by The Underdogs. There are much bigger problems facing game developers than a website that offers free downloads of 20 year old dead games.

[Anthony Flack]

I'm confused too, by the arguments of the people who claim to be confused. Well, everything that Andy said clearly makes no sense at all, although I get the point that he's accusing me of being a self-centred, morally bankrupt antisocial. As much as that's insulting, it's more sad to hear of people's minds working that way. Andy, of course I would want to see my work preserved for the future. And how dare you insinuate that I would be so self-centred as to take an "I only care about myself" position. Quite the opposite is true, but since you won't think about the issues at all (you can't even understand why we're talking about it; and you're clearly not listening), I can only agree with Papillon.

But I know, I know, I'd certainly feel differently if HotU started selling pirate copies of my game as soon as I released it. The fact that they don't do any of that, the fact that people keep repeatedly pointing out, over and over and over again, that they don't do any of that, doesn't seem to make a jot of difference.

But here it is, in capital letters:

THEY DO NOT SELL THE GAMES.

THEY DO NOT DISTRIBUTE GAMES THAT ARE FOR SALE.

THEY REMOVE ANY CONTENT THAT THE AUTHOR OBJECTS TO.

I don't see the point in giving any time to further arguments that falsely suppose any of those things.

Now Yanuart is coherent. But you really should go and read the book all the same, because it covers the topic from a lot of different angles you may not have considered. If you care about these issues at all, you should read the book.

Despite Andy's insistence that I only care about myself, this is an issue that concerns me greatly. Rest assured that regardless of what direction the law may take, I will make sure that my own work is safely delivered into the public domain in due course.

BTW, I don't know how much money HotU makes, but I don't imagine it's much. Certainly not a fortune! Probably just covering their bandwidth.

[Anthony Flack]

I will make sure that my own work is safely delivered into the public domain in due course.


It occurs to me: I mean work that I actually have the rights to, of course. Which is a rather compelling reason, for me, to not give up any more IP permanently.

I can't rely on other people to free it when the time comes. There are many artists whose work remains locked away forever, because the publisher refuses to release it. The world's going crazy, but I can at least take care of my own legacy.

[Andy]

Anthony!

OK on Pappilion. But you! You know how I respect your personally and like your work. And be you not so expresive in your answer but read a little bit deeper you'd probably get some of my points.

You are not insulted because you are not selling your games by your own yet. You just can't FEEL by the same way yet when that bullshitters - pardon guys and gals! but that's how I address to them in any forum - (all of them) steal the food from my two daughters. Your personal experience just step ahead.

Now your CAP lettered points. :D

THEY DO NOT SELL THE GAMES - and so what? Most of them don't. Even more most of them state in their so-called congratulating emails (that ones where they inform you that your software is broken): "if you like the game buy the full version" etc.

THEY DO NOT DISTRIBUTE GAMES THAT ARE FOR SALE - really? Who can state that for sure? And what about that iPoker guy? And how that connected to copyright law? Guys are saying they already playing the demo levels of your Cletus Anthony - give me one to place it on my site to attract some audience. - Got the idea now?

THEY REMOVE ANY CONTENT THAT THE AUTHOR OBJECTS TO - That was already answered by Hamumu Mike. So, what? This is resolve the problem for that 1 million of pirate sites around. They just need to place the same statement about removement request to all their sites?

Anthony... That's me here - Andy -> :confused:

Saying honestly I stop reading any answer of ones how defends them right after I meet something like: I like to play that old games so much... OK. My fault to not read till the end guys. But excuse me - you want. And so what? (Yes. I know I repeat myself)

Well. Time to stop my participation in this discussion really. Don't like to offend somebody by my English (or my opinion). But I ask you just think twice before believe to BS of that pirates or any others.

[Fry Crayola]

I don't think it is so much a case of believing the BS of the pirates. It's more a case of interpreting the site in our own way.

I see it as a resource for games that simply cannot be bought anywhere with the exception of second hand goods - and even then it's difficult to find them. I would prefer the Underdogs to go to the trouble of finding out the copyright holders and asking permission, but of course that's not always possible. Who are the copyright holders? In the world of developer and publisher buy-outs, who owns what anymore?

It's illegal, but morally I don't see too much wrong with it. They are old games. They don't take away any profit from the current copyright holders, who for one reason or another refuse to distribute them. I'm glad the site exists. Without it, there is no way I'd have ever found and played Sensible World of Soccer.

There is, of course, a better solution than such a site. If every publisher in existence today started to keep track of it's copyrights (which I believe they now do), and cared for and respected the history, offering the products on their own site for free download or purchase, then we'd go there. If I wanted to play SWOS again, I can go to a the owner's site (creator John Hare works for Codemasters, but I can't say who owns the copyright) and they could offer me the game for a fiver. Bargain.

It's the same issue with emulation. If I want to play Super Metroid now, not owning a copy, I can download a ROM. Nintendo hate this, and I'm denied access to a classic game. If Nintendo could offer the ROM on their site at a small charge, and officially sanction an existing emulator to use it on (which is the cheapest option from their point of view) we both win. I get to own an official version of the game complete with reproduction electronic manual, and they get to make money from their old games.

Of course, an overriding problem here is the availability of the ROMs already, and that looks like it will never go away, even for the more recent games. But it can't harm the publishers from trying, can it?

[yanuart]

There are much bigger problems facing game developers than a website that offers free downloads of 20 year old dead games.
yeah like a single coder who can't meet schedule bcause he always get himself distracted writing in forums :D ** must code, must finish game, must not sleep **

Because the stores refuse to take them?
or is it because gamers who love old PC games will rather download it on the net (and condone the idea of such service) so there's no market for vintage PC games collector so the store won't accept it cause it won't sell ?
i don't think it's bcoz the store afraid of piracy cause when you put the game on retroshop you can't just give the shopclerk a verbatim blank cd and say "here's a copy of my KQ IV and I'd like to sell it".. it's different with ebay tho

But you really should go and read the book all the same, because it covers the topic from a lot of different angles you may not have considered.
yeah.. i spent too much time reading those useless computer books :D it was just me being cynical coz recently i've been a victim of a similar practice.
anyway I have to admit that I found a game that I once loved so much on that site and downloaded it cause I just couldn't stand the temptation to play it again **woot** and after throwing my self dignity i found the game won't run on my comp. :mad: :mad: so I guess 20 yrs old games must come with 20 yrs old hardware.

this is not an attempt to kiss majorities ass,I still stand to my point that what HOTU did altough "may ??" meant well n noble it still wrong in someway, hey a guy got so pissed he decided to go to court, that can't be right .. right ?

[GBGames]

But I ask you just think twice before believe to BS of that pirates or any others.

And I would ask you to think twice before dismissing an argument as BS just because you think it is just a justification for "stealing".

And since some people here seem to be ignorant of copyright, let's point out it's history, at least in the US.

Copyright used to be for much less than life + 70 years. Something like 15 years. Imagine how horrible it must be for an author to only have the rights to a work for only 15 years...oh wait. It wasn't horrible at all. It was understandable. The protection of your creative works by copyright are not meant to just provide you with a law that says it is your product and yours alone. This protection is an incentive to produce more, but the reason for copyright is to promote the progress of science and the useful arts.

Yes, there is that incentive program which allows you to protect your works for a limited time, but that's the point. It is supposed to be a limited time and afterwards it should be available for the public to make use of.

The copyright on books before the early 1900s has run out. Now we can leverage those works to create new and interesting works. American McGee's Alice is based on Alice's Adventures in Wonderland written by Carroll Lewis. In fact, so is Disney's Alice in Wonderland. No one needed permission to create these new works because Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is in the public domain.

What you can't do is do anything based on Mickey Mouse or even Disney's Alice in Wonderland. Mickey Mouse should be in the public domain by now, but Disney has done a good job of lobbying for the copyright extensions to be as long as they are today.

When does it help society to allow a company to hold in effect a creative work forever? It doesn't. THAT's the problem with today's copyright. The owners have too much power.

Andy: I may not have a game published yet, but I do have my written works. I would hate to think that someone in the future would be afraid to use part of them to create a new work. Yes, it is my work right now, and they shouldn't make money off of my work right now. That's not the point. The point is that up until this past half century, a lot of creative works could be made by using creative works made not 30 or 40 years earlier. In an age where people complain that all popular music sounds the same, all popular games play the same, and all popular movies look the same, we're telling people that they can't try to improve on works made a relatively short time ago.

If the only public domain work is Shakespeare, almost everything will be based on Shakespeare. However, as more and more works enter the public domain, more and more works can be created based on them. It's counterintuitive, but innovation is rarely pure or done on its own. Innovation tends to come through iterations and improvements on what has come before.

I commend Anthony for taking the stance that his works will definitely pass into the public domain in his lifetime. Too many organizations and companies take the position of the hoarder: the more I get, the more I keep, and the less everyone else gets. Anthony's position is in the spirit of copyright: the more everyone gets, the more everyone creates, and the better off everyone is.

[Armsfeld]

Heh, this argument has boiled on. Let me congratulate those of you who do your research and read your opponent's replies... to see the forest through the trolls, as it were.

[luggage]

my point is, if the intention is so noble then the guy/girl should think about protecting the games from the hands of pirates and the only way to do that is not having it to be downloaded.
And that would defeat the point! That's like having a library that doesn't open! A museum with all it's works stored away and nothing on show. It'd be like not displaying artworks because a thief might steal them.

I'm annoyed if the guy hide behind a noble cause just to find another way to make a fortune, that's just me being all cynical!! Yup libraries and other public services need money to run but they're for the social service purpose with the right kind of funding, nobody makes a library to make fortune right ? that'll make it a business entity thus it's rental not a library Very cynical - what makes you think they're making a "fortune". It's a few banner adds. They don't charge to download games. Underdogs needs money to run but they can't rely on government funding can they?

Can you see the difference ?
Yes - your way won't work. It seems a difficult point for you to grasp but, quite often nobody knows who the copyright holder is. Under your system these games would be gone forever.

does this means I can scan XMen volume 1 on put it on website for everyone to see, cause obviously marvel isn't publishing it anymore and I'm afraid the last owner of the edition's house caught on fire
The value in XMen Volume 1 is the actual physical thing. It's value won't go down. Van Gogh's Sunflowers hasn't dropped in value because there's millions of prints available of it has it?

Doesn't it intrigue you that the guy who made iPoker went all the trouble of going to court if he should/could think the site is for a noble cause ?And that's the point - they guy has misunderstood what the underdogs is all about. A quick email would have seen his game removed and a link to his site in it's place. But no - he jumps to the very same conclusion a few on here have and that underdogs is exactly the same as a site offering recent warez to download.

Hey let me put it this way, if I host your obsolete game and I got 3K downloads a month, I'll think that you still have a chance on scoring something with your game and I don't want to take your right on capitalizing your game.Depends - if the game doesn't run very well on recent hardware then I won't be able to sell it. I'd also hope if that was the case I could email you - get you to remove then start selling it again.

If I get 100$ for banner ads cause alot of ppl go to my site to download ur obsolete game then I'll think that the money don't belong to me, it's ur game that makes ppl come to my site therefor i really need to ask ur permission first.The money wouldn't belong to me because you wouldn't know who to give the money to . If you chose to have Puzzle Word, you couldn't get in touch with me (been hit by a car or something) then it would be the end of the game according to you. But it shouldn't be. And the only way to preserve that game would be to break the current law.


Andy: I have games for sale - both shareware and retail. I would object to finding recent games for sale, those that are easily brought. I would not object to a game being free to download once the revenue stream is dead.

AAARRRGGHHHH - how frustrating is this thread?

[yanuart]

And that would defeat the point! That's like having a library that doesn't open! A museum with all it's works stored away and nothing on show. It'd be like not displaying artworks because a thief might steal them.
The value in XMen Volume 1 is the actual physical thing. It's value won't go down. Van Gogh's Sunflowers hasn't dropped in value because there's millions of prints available of it has it?

:confused: I'll say this again as u probably have read it on my previous posts that software is a little bit tricky than other form of media which has tangible/physical properties that cannot be separated which makes them more difficult to copy or misuse or change it values.

Software isn't like that (i've said this many many times), if you compare software with vangogh masterpiece which cannot be duplicated then .. i dunno what else to say, let's try this one more time :
Vangogh paintings - 2$ printed version, is it the same thing ?
A software with its fancy boxset - same software in a crappy blank cd or downloaded from a site, is it the same thing ?

Oh about the xmen, even though i stated the fact that xmen volume 1 value won't be decline it still won't work when I plead to the judge after those marvel's lawyer sue my ass.

that's why we must treat them with care, let's find a way to do it yet still hold a high respect to the rightful owner and walk through our way in this digital confussions.. software actually has no physical properties to be linked at all and these days it's very very easy to misuse them, actually I made my point on previous posts so I don't feel like continuing..
You can't hide behind the "preservation cause" & "public service" all the time because there'll be someone sneaky enough or turned to corrupt to hide behind those noble cause to do bad things.
It's like being a robin hood and after awhile you'll turn into a real thief ** I hope you get my point on this statement **

Very cynical - what makes you think they're making a "fortune". It's a few banner adds. They don't charge to download games.
2 banner ads + 1 skycrapper + 3-4 rectangles + popups on every page not to mention there's javascript downloaded to my computer.. please don't tell me the guy isn't trying to score something out of it.
With the average of 300.000 visitors in the last 30 days (from metricsmarket, trafficestimate yield higher) and the avg 3.5 page views (from alexa) I'd say the guy at least make 700K-1M impression and if the eCPM these days is somewhere about 0.4$ that means he'll get roughly 400$ from one banner ads, just multiply that by how many banner ads, skycrapper, etc (popup counted differently but basically it'll yield more money).
I know this because I run website that has ads as my source of income, my site only got 50K visitors in a month and I only use one banner on each page (I only use 2 banners +invue + 1 trafic exhange box on my first page, traffic exchange it's not an ads and I don't get any money from it but in case ur wondering) and I earn 100$ per month.

Please please don't tell me the guy isn't trying to squizee fortune out of it, he can have one google adsense banners and that'll cover his expenses (server wise, a dedicated server can cost like <100$ these days, I dunno if he needs other expenses such as hiring well suited lawyer)

I'm not envy of his success, I'm just being cynic about his/her intention at a first place and yes i don't believe the guy who made modchip do it for "educational" purpose or so that people can copy their rightful games for backup ;) .

Depends - if the game doesn't run very well on recent hardware then I won't be able to sell it. I'd also hope if that was the case I could email you - get you to remove then start selling it again.
but by that time there has allready alot of ppl allready having a copy of your game for free and you'll start thinking that I'm a bad guy :D

Now that I've plunged to deep into this debacle, I'm saying that there's no use of continuing this arguments as I've said my points and opinions vastly enough and I can see it'll turn into something unproductive as I just have the urge to say things which I've said earlier.

Let's start to figure out a solution for this problem : "How can we make a public digital archive of PC games without causing any infringement yet still able to live up to its function (let public know about these great games) at least to a certain degree"

btw.. this has been a great ride so far and a better entertainment than that Catwoman crap I just saw and I have to pay for it.. grmbl grmbl.
I'd like to apologize if I may offend anyone here and express my respect to anyone who have shared their opinions and thoughts. I hope everyone can read between the lines and get the positive inputs amidst all those strong words :D

[Nauris]

Yeah, it seems that everyone could go on and on for years like this:)
Whats been really interesting from this discussion, is the fact that copyright concept is quite relative and percieved differently by everyone.
As the result of this discussion i feel as i`m morally very flexible - the very fact that no loss of income is done to copyright holders is important to justify TU (although, its not, of course, the only reason).

It seems that main row was between to mindsets - "principle" and "the ends". I personally see the whole copyrights question as a rather relative. The rules are meant to prevent financial loss. If there is no loss, although TU is in formal breach, they dont make it into my black book.

Its a bit like with age ratings for movies or games - lets suppose there is 18+ movie. Lets suppose my son (hypotethic one, I have no kids) is 17 years and 9 months old. Would I allow him to watch it?
Sure. Why not?
This elastic approach to rules might not be acceptable to some, I can accept that. But thats how I view the world and rules in particular.

[merovingian]

My experience with the underdogs involved noting that "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" was available for download. I emailed them that it wasn't abandonware, and a link to some articles by Harlan Ellison about what he does to people who steal his stuff, and poof, off it went, and a profuse thank you was sent to me.

I think the Underdogs are cool myself...

This whole copyright panic is way out of control at this point... Most of the games on there are *worthless* and they will never be available again by other means.

[badjim]

A google search for the word 'powerpoker' brings up a number of reviews for ipoker, mentioning 'that old powerpoker game by the same author'. Several of these link to the ipoker website.

Therefore I think the author wasn't so very difficult to contact and should have been contacted


Also, these bandwidth starved museum curators have not heard of bittorrent

[EpicBoy]

I emailed them that it wasn't abandonware, and a link to some articles by Harlan Ellison about what he does to people who steal his stuff, and poof, off it went, and a profuse thank you was sent to me.
How hard would it have been for them to a quick google and see if it's cool or not? It looks to me like they pull stuff down if they get caught (which is great), but don't really do any due diligence ahead of time (which sucks). Not really the ethical way to go about things.

[Aldacron]

I was quietly watching this discusison, but something struck me that I just want to point out to Andy :)


You just can't FEEL by the same way yet when that bullshitters - pardon guys and gals! but that's how I address to them in any forum - (all of them) steal the food from my two daughters.


If the the game is not for sale, then there is no food being stolen from anyone's daughters is there? That's the sticking point here. No one would argue with you that someone distributing a game you are selling is a pirate. How many threads have there been here and on the old Dexterity forums where someone pointed out that a member's games were being pirated? How many times has this community banded together and fired off emails to get pirate sites shut down?

There's no doubt that HOTU is partaking in illegal activity according to copyright law, but the fact remains that the games they make available for download are not for sale. I challenge you to find a game on that site that is still for sale. You might find a dusty old copy of one in a bargain bin in some small shop somewhere. But those games are no longer published or distributed.

You have a great amount of anger built up towards pirates, and I can relate to that. But there's a clear moral line between HOTU and your typical warez types. HOTU isn't taking any food off of anyone's table. They are trying to make sure that your daughters can one day play the same games you did by keeping those games alive. There are several games on HOTU that would likely be lost by now, otherwise. Sure, they could go about it differently to avoid controversy, through due diligence as EpicBoy touched on. But the intent, either way, is the same - preservation of games which are no longer published or distributed.

[Andy]

Aldacron,

Please pardon me. I was promissing to not write to this thread any more. :)
You can read my last answer to Anthony one more time - there are already some answers on issues.

I write just to let you know that I see your challenge but I'm not going to accept it. We've already spent amount of time on this discussion. ;)