Bought DarkBasic - Did I make a mistake?

[Sunshine]

Recently I bought DarkBasic after seeing a few 3d demos that had been made with it.

But after using it for a little bit I noticed some serious flaws (in my opinion) with the product.

:mad: First off there is a long load time at the start of almost every program, even simple screensavers I made take 10-30 seconds to load. ( That's a long time when your staring at a load screen )

:mad: Also I am a very 'Object Oriented' Programmer, and I find the step back to functional coding to be a little too limiting. I thought that I could link in a DLL that could hold some C++ code and the data, then use DB as a rendering engine, but that turned out to not be possible.

Am I being too harsh on DB? or does it just suck?

[Reactor]

Whatever decision you make about it, the purchase really does fall onto you, since the info about this is easily findable on their website (I don't know anything about DB- I just went a had a quick look)

FAQ (http://darkbasic.thegamecreators.com/?m=faq_view&i=3f26910b318b86.71206738)

Reguardless of the program's limitations, the question to ask is, "Can I still make something good with this program?" If the answer is yes, you might want to look at how full the glass is, instead of how empty :) As for loading speed, I don't recall extra long load times with the game StarWraith3D. You could try asking for opinions on their forums, if you can't get the loadtimes down.

[robleong]

I would have told you to buy Blitz instead, but Reactor's advice is good - make the best of what you (now) have! :)

[Sunshine]

you might want to look at how full the glass is, instead of how empty

Yes, this is very true. I am a big believer in this. I have always said it is not the power of the tool, but the power of the programmer. (I am a C64 buff)

Unfortunatly in this case I am fearing the the glass is not only NOT half full, but is COMPLETLY EMPTY, the glass has fallen to the floor and shattered and I just stepped on the broken glass!

Maybe I am being too harsh on these guys? :confused:

[Reactor]

LOL- love the analogy :)

Give it some time, and see what it is you do like about it. For all you know, making a game with it will be ten times quicker than anything else out there! Based on the things I've seen done with Darkbasic, I don't think the glass is totally smashed. The engine seems quite compatable, and hardly hugely limited.

Anyway, let us know how you go. If need be there's always the option of contacting the DB guys for a (dare I say it) refund.

[Rainer Deyke]

It's a BASIC - of course it sucks!

Seriously, I have no doubt that DarkBasic is the right tool for some jobs and some people. However, since you're already familiar with C++, why not stick to that? There are a multitude of free 3D engine available for C++, and rolling your own is not that hard either. Buying a programming language when you just want a renderer seems like a backwards approach to me.

[Jack Norton]

Honestly if you know really C++ I don't see a valid reason for purchasing Darkbasic or other languages... you can use Ogre, Irrlicht, Torque, etc and have much better results (and even cross-platform).

[KNau]

I've recently switched to Blitz Basic but I can vouch that Dark Basic works fine and it is absolutely possible to make a game that sells. After all, the customer doesn't give a rat's ass what language you programmed it in - as long as the game is fun and it works.

I have to agree that if you are a C++ expert than going to BASIC will be a huge step back for you. If you are only beginning programming then Dark Basic and Blitz Basic both offer the advantage of development speed and stability over coding everything from scratch. Again, programming languages are irrelevant as long as your game works and is fun to play. Cross platform (which Blitz will be capable of soon) is a nice buzz word but certainly not a necessity for success.

If you feel that bad about it, why not take a week and create a simple game in Dark Basic (some arcade / puzzle clone) and sell it on-line? Guaranteed you can move 10 copies within the next 6 months and at least make your money back :)

[Night Elf]

:mad: Also I am a very 'Object Oriented' Programmer, and I find the step back to functional coding to be a little too limiting. I thought that I could link in a DLL that could hold some C++ code and the data, then use DB as a rendering engine, but that turned out to not be possible

Why didn't you download the free trial version before buying?

I heard about DB for the first time some years ago, when it had just appeared. I thought the idea sounded great so I donwloaded the trial. After playing a bit with it and seeing it resembled the original BASIC language (and not VisualBasic as I had thought), I quickly let it go. I couldn't stand the lack of object orientation. (I mean, I could have lived without inheritance but I was at least expecting a '.Method()' kind of sintax.)

If I were you, I would get rid of DB and, as the others suggested, look for a free C++ engine (OGRE looks good, but I haven't tried it.) You could use DB for some quick prototyping for testing game ideas.

[Sean Doherty]

Honestly if you know really C++ I don't see a valid reason for purchasing Darkbasic or other languages... you can use Ogre, Irrlicht, Torque, etc and have much better results (and even cross-platform).

Jack,

I have been researching the various game engines and even though I know C++ very well I was tempted to purchase Dark Basic Professional. The only thing that really stopped me from making the purchase was the lack of good tutorials that came with the demo, stability of the new professional version, and the basic syntax seemed fairly verbose.

To date I have researched the following (here is my thoughts):

Dark Basic Professional

Pros
- Many Features including DirectX 9.0
- Fast Development Times
- Full Game Engine
- Large Community
- At Least one Book Available
- Imports Many Formats

Cons
- Lack of good tutorials that came with the demo
- Stability of the new professional version
- Basic syntax seemed fairly verbose
- Does Not run on MAC


OGRE

Pros
- Open Source
- A lot of Graphics (Rendering) Engine Features
- Runs on MAC

Cons
- Free - (you get what you pay for)
- Not a Full Game Engine
- Not as friendly to New People as other Communities
- Middle of the Road Difficulty
- Does Not Load .x or .3DS files
- Documentation could be better


Irrlicht

Pros
- Open Source
- Triangle Based Collision Detection
- Loads .x and .3DS Files
- Easy to Use

Cons
- Free - (you get what you pay for)
- Community does not seem to be large enough
- Documentation Could be Better
- Creator is not as active as other Open Source Projects
- Does Not port to MAC


A6

Pros
- Expensive for Professional Version
- Huge and Active Community
- Complete Game Engine
- Load .x and .3ds files
- Graphics Features from DirectX 8.1 (DirectX 9 would be better)

Cons
- Lack of good tutorials that came with the demo
- IDE Crashed a Couple of Times
- No Source Available
- High Learning Curve
- Does Not port to MAC


Blitz3D

Pros
- Nothing else is easier
- Very Stable
- Great Tutorials with Demo
- Price
- Scripting Language more like C script than Basic

Cons
- Features from DirectX 7 (no shaders, etc; but BlitzMax is coming?)
- Does not port to MAC.
- No Source / Scripting Only


Torque

Pros
- Source Code Available
- Price
- Community
- Network Code
- Ports to MAC / and maybe soon xbox?
- Book Available
- Seems Stable
- Complete Game Engine

Cons
- Learning Curve / Slow Development Time at first
- Documentation
- FPS Engine without changes to source; but there are RTS modules in the sales pipeline
- Older Technology (Torque Shader is available in beta)

Conclusion:

- If you want to lean get about making game engines get:

OGRE
Irrlicht

- If you want to release a game in the next 60 days get:

Blitz3D
Dark Basic Pro

- If you want to learn an Engine that will grow with you and allow you to focus on the game development once you get by the learning curve get:

Torque
A6

All in all I still like Irrlicht, Torque, Blitz3D, and A6. Probably Torque and Blitz3D are the best choices. Moreover, probably Blitz3D is by far the best choice for people making casual games.

Anyway these are my opinions, feel free to disagree.

[Chris Evans]

Cross platform (which Blitz will be capable of soon) is a nice buzz word but certainly not a necessity for success.



Is Blitz3D planning to support the Mac soon? Where can I read about this?

Anyway, I certainly wouldn't say "cross platform" is a buzz word. Maybe it is somewhat for Linux ports, but everybody I talked to who has a Mac version of their game, Mac sales account anywhere from 35 - 60% of their total sales. Being able to provide a Mac port certainly isn't merely a buzz word, it's a legitimate way to substantially increase your sales.

This probably belongs in another topic, but Mac gamers are usually fairly receptive to Indie games. Moreso than most jaded PC gamers. I'd say for my game, "Pow Pow's Great Adventure", about 60-70% of the news coverage has come from Mac gaming sites.

That's why I think it's important not to underestimate game engines that are cross platform. I wish more of them were.

[Sean Doherty]

Is Blitz3D planning to support the Mac soon? Where can I read about this?

Anyway, I certainly wouldn't say "cross platform" is a buzz word. Maybe it is somewhat for Linux ports, but everybody I talked to who has a Mac version of their game, Mac sales account anywhere from 35 - 60% of their total sales. Being able to provide a Mac port certainly isn't merely a buzz word, it's a legitimate way to substantially increase your sales.

This probably belongs in another topic, but Mac gamers are usually fairly receptive to Indie games. Moreso than most jaded PC gamers. I'd say for my game, "Pow Pow's Great Adventure", about 60-70% of the news coverage has come from Mac gaming sites.

That's why I think it's important not to underestimate game engines that are cross platform. I wish more of them were.

BlitzMax will be released for MAC first. It should be released in the next 30-60 days; although, there is some question as to whether it will be 3D engine or only a 2D engine at first.

You will have to own a MAC to run BlitzMax until the PC version is released. Hopefully, soon after the MAC version.

PS: BlitzMax will be object oriented; so for the guy who started this post; start with Blitz3D and upgrade to BlitzMax when it is released for the PC.

[robleong]

>It's a BASIC - of course it sucks!
LOL - I used to think the same about C when I was programming in assembler!

Chris, news about BlitzMax is available on the www.blitzbasic.com forum, but I guess the relevant news is mainly in the members only forum, which requires you to have Blitz to start off with. It will soon be released for the MacOS X version, and a PC version will follow. It will, unfortunately, only be 2D initially.

[Sunshine]

Thanks Sean, excellent summery.

From looking at the sites I think I will look into Irrlicht,
The ogre site seemed a little lean to me.

I don't suppose you have a similar list of 2d game engines, ea?


Also I would like to say that this forum is MUCH more friendly than the others I have gone to. The other's seem to be infested with flamers ;)
Thank you again for your help :)

[Sean Doherty]

>It's a BASIC - of course it sucks!
LOL - I used to think the same about C when I was programming in assembler!

Chris, news about BlitzMax is available on the www.blitzbasic.com forum, but I guess the relevant news is mainly in the members only forum, which requires you to have Blitz to start off with. It will soon be released for the MacOS X version, and a PC version will follow. It will, unfortunately, only be 2D initially.

One import point, Blitz3D is not really basic in terms of Dark Basic or C-64 Basic. In fact if anything the scripting language looks more like C script; Dark Basic uses the basic we all remember. That said, I bet if you made a list of the top ten selling Indie Games; most of them could be done is Blitz3D without any problems. All the Games on Dexterity.com could be done in Blitz3D.

Think Tanks is one of the few games that even comes to mind that would be easier to do in Torque. Although, Think Tanks is the type of game that Torque thrives on.

[Sean Doherty]

Thanks Sean, excellent summery.

From looking at the sites I think I will look into Irrlicht,
The ogre site seemed a little lean to me.

I don't suppose you have a similar list of 2d game engines, ea?



I like Irrlicht, but the community is a little thin; it takes time to get answers. I am sure there are lots of good 2D API's; the one people seem to like is located at the following URL:

www.phelios.com/ptk/

It is MAC and PC and creator was a member of Dexterity.com?



Also I would like to say that this forum is MUCH more friendly than the others I have gone to. The other's seem to be infested with flamers ;)
Thank you again for your help :)


The majority of the people here are interested in growing their business; they won't tell you to search google.com for the answer every question.

[Jack Norton]

www.phelios.com/ptk/

It is MAC and PC and creator was a member of Dexterity.com?
Yes I used that for all my games except USM.
His creator is patrox, he post sometime here (but not very frequently as he is always busy fixing my code bugs heheheh).

If you want only to do a 2D game, like I do, you can't ask more... honestly I am not in a hurry to get a 3D game done since it's much more difficult and also isn't in my target (I want to make old-style strategic/simulation games).

[Sean Doherty]

For those who still don't believe you can make a good game using Blitz3D; have a look at the following link:

www.blitzbasic.co.nz/gallery/view_pic.php?id=161

I think most of you will recognize the game!

[HairyTroll]

The question is; are you writing games as an artform, or are you writing games to make money.

If you are writing games to make money then the aim is always to get a product out the door as fast as possible. If the difference between developing in DarkBasic versus C++ means cutting a 3 month development schedule to 3 weeks (I'm just guessing - I have never used DB), then go for DarkBasic. Don't be concerned that it is retro 80's basic. Don't be concerned that it isn't OO. Write the game, get it out the door, start making sales. Determine the problem at hand, choose the right tools for the job, solve the problem, don't over-engineer. That's the bottom line. Everything else is an exercise in academia.

That being said; I am in it for the artform. I do not have a time crunch and am not in financial need as this is currently my hobby.

[Jack Norton]

The question is; are you writing games as an artform, or are you writing games to make money
Exactly, but if he is going to make games to make money the best choice is C.
Why? easy: think if you make a game so good that "someone" want to buy source code. As soon as you say "ehm I made it in Dark/Ligh/Super/Blitz BASIC" they'll run away.
Or what if they want to port the game to Xbox-Mac-PS2-Pocketpc ?

Jack Norton's tip of the day:
Use * basic * languages at your own risk

:cool:

[HairyTroll]

...the best choice is C.
Why? easy: think if you make a game so good that "someone" want to buy source code.

I think these are two very different business models. One model involves creating and selling games, the second model involves creating the underlying technology (the game engine) where the game is simply a vehicle to sell the technology.

If you are writing an engine then by all means, use the most portable language out there. However I still stand by what I said earlier... if the core business is to sell games then use whatever is necessary to get the game out the door as fast as possible. As Benjamin Franklin said, "Time is Money".

-Luke

[Reactor]

"think if you make a game so good that "someone" want to buy source code."

There is such a thing as overplanning. If all you're doing is trying to make a game and (as HairyTroll mentioned) get it out the door, a basic engine is all you need. It's a matter of balance. It's technology versus development time, versus cost of engine, versus a whole host of other things. Trying to plan for total domination of the gaming market, when all you're doing is shopping around for a $100 game engine, doesn't seem right to me.

[EpicBoy]

I'll take a good coders BASIC source over a sloppy coders C source any day of the week. The language wouldn't be the issue in that situation...

[Jack Norton]

Ok forget about the source code thing.
What about portability? Is so bad to be able to port the game faster on pocketpc/Mac? I don't think so... :)

[EpicBoy]

Ahh, but you forget about BlitzMax. Cross platform language, coming in the next few months...

If the hype holds up, it'll be a simple recompile of your BASIC source on Mac or Linux and boom, you've ported your game.

[Sean Doherty]

Ahh, but you forget about BlitzMax. Cross platform language, coming in the next few months...

If the hype holds up, it'll be a simple recompile of your BASIC source on Mac or Linux and boom, you've ported your game.

Isn't BlitzMax is going to be a different language than Blitz3D; so you really couldn't recompile a Blitz3D on a different platform? You could buy BlitzMax for the Mac when it is released (2D Only); and then port to the PC later.

It is to bad the won't share more information on BlitzMax?

[Jack Norton]

Ahh, but you forget about BlitzMax. Cross platform language, coming in the next few months...

If the hype holds up, it'll be a simple recompile of your BASIC source on Mac or Linux and boom, you've ported your game.
If you make a 2D game yes. If you use Blitz3D that isn't the case, since the initial release of Blitzmax, that HOPEFULLY will be in next few months (but honestly I don't know when) you have only basic 2D function.

Personally, I am much happier with Visual C + PTK (https://www.plimus.com/jsp/download_trial.jsp?contractId=1634217&referrer=rei1974) to make a 2D cross-platform game...

[EpicBoy]

I'm talking "in the future" here for sure, but definitely within the next year. The initial Mac release is simply to expose it to a smaller customer base, hammer out the bugs and then release it to the vastly larger PC market.

BlitzMax will have 3D support soon after release and the same source will compile for multiple platforms. If the quality of Blitz3D is any indication, BlitzMax should prove to be excellent.

I think it's an option seriously worth keeping on your radar.

[Reanimated]

Isn't BlitzMax is going to be a different language than Blitz3D; so you really couldn't recompile a Blitz3D on a different platform? You could buy BlitzMax for the Mac when it is released (2D Only); and then port to the PC later.

Apparently, Mark (creator of blitz), said that hes working on a converter which converts Blitz3D code into BlitzMax code. Might require minor changes, but it should convert 99% of it. But as you say, it would be good if they released more concrete information. At the moment, If this is true, then BlitzMax is definately something I will get because Im working on a 2D game and could do with a port to the Mac for more sales :)

[Jack Norton]

BlitzMax will have 3D support soon after release and the same source will compile for multiple platforms. If the quality of Blitz3D is any indication, BlitzMax should prove to be excellent.
Yes, true.
A pity they didn't change the debugger, I simply can't stand that one... but well is just my personal preference. I guess that for small games Blitz is the best choice. But for my niche market (simulation/strategy) using powerful C debugger is not an option - is a necessity :D

Maybe in a future version of blitz Mark will implement a better debugger and then I'd be really interested in Blitz again ;)

[EpicBoy]

Yeah, you've got me on the debugger. It really does suck. But, strangely, I rarely run into problems that require a powerful debugger when using Blitz. It's almost always something obvious and easily fixable.

I guess the nature of the language and how it protects you prevents a lot of bugs in the first place...

[Jack Norton]

But, strangely, I rarely run into problems that require a powerful debugger when using Blitz. It's almost always something obvious and easily fixable
I don't know, it may be just me :)
Or my "programming style", I want to see immediatly the changes I make on the code reflected on screen - if I change that variable on the fly with Visual C I can see why that behaviour led to that other one etc etc.
Probably also because of the kind of games I'm making, that's sure (full of structs, sorts and so on).

[EpicBoy]

Well, Blitz causes you to conform to its way of doing things somewhat. You can't walk in expecting to code like you would in C ... it's not worse necessarily, but it IS a change you have to make in your head. I think that enforced change in style causes less bugs ... in my code anyway.

Anyway ...

[robleong]

Apparently, Mark (creator of blitz), said that hes working on a converter which converts Blitz3D code into BlitzMax code.

As far as I'm aware, it's just Blitz2D code into BlitzMax for now. Perhaps he'll do it for Blitz3D too in the future when the 3D module comes out...

[formfarbeminze]

an excellent performing cross-plattforming compiling basic compiler: http://www.realbasic.com/

[Jack Norton]

I think that enforced change in style causes less bugs ... in my code anyway
That seems just an excuse... that tool doesn't do the job ok, then I'll have to be twice careful (and waste lot of time) :p

Sure you aren't Mark on hidden identity? :)