Game graphics?

[BedroomCoder]

Hi


I was recently talking to a fellow programmer (who I have a bitter sweet relationship with anyway), and he started to say that the texturing on the cars in my game is "shit", and that he finds it amazing that I havent noticed how "fucking shit your graphics are".

So I was thinking of maybe asking you lot - do you think the graphics on Clones looks too bad to go shareware?

http://www.freewebs.com/bedroomcoder/clones.htm

Yeah I know theres not many screenshots, I'll add a few more in later.

- Dan

[Ricardo C]

1) The cars' textures look quite plain. I wouldn't use the word "shit", but yes, you should redo them, or have them redone.

2) Why are you taking this person's criticism (someone you admittedly have an adversarial relationship with) with so close to heart?

[BedroomCoder]

Just cause I'm a bit sensative.

Hmmmm, I was saying to whositsface (insulting guy) about real life painted metal really does sorta look untextured... apart from the odd bump... sorta cause the texture just gets covered in paint... if it was plain steel then I would understand... but yeah you are just offering your opinion and I respect that.

I was also going for a 1990's "house of the dead 1 style" arcade look, which sorta explains the windscreen...

[Anthony Flack]

In all honesty, I would say your graphics are quite rough. Too bad for shareware? Who knows? - but certainly, employing the services of a good artist could work wonders for you.

Main problems I can see are -

1) yep, the car textures could be improved enormously. Even though a car is just coloured metal, take a look at how a good texture artist will enhance the look of the model with various tricks.

2) The hud is ugly, clunky, and the colours don't sit nicely. If it's only a stand-in then that's fine, but otherwise, have a good look at huds in other games. They should be clear and pleasingly laid out, with a good choice of font and colour that sits well with your game graphics.

which leads me to

3) Your overall style seems rather haphazard and lacking in cohesion. It looks like all the elements of the game were just slung together without any thought to how well they work together. The men, the backgrounds, the hud etc. just don't sit well together.

It's not that the game looks hopeless or unbearably awful. But it does look like programmer art. If you are serious about game development, I would advise you to think about working with a dedicated artist in future.

[Triple_Fox]

The detail on them is fine; what makes them look bad is the fact that the windshield texture has the same look as the metal texture. The metal should be "opaque/shiny" while the windshield should be "transparent/shiny." Without this difference, or at least some coloration, it looks like the car is a solid block of metal.

And your fellow programmer is a poo-poo head :p I think the graphics, minus that one oddity, are shaping up nicely. (edit: this doesn't mean they're fine, but if there is continued refinement they will be; I have seen worse titles that I would still buy!)

[BedroomCoder]

Thanks for the C&C.

As it is I dont actually have much of a budget to actually work with - 100 quid is about it and I have to pay for other "life" stuff with it.

Its quite strange how opinions on the graphics differ so much! With some people saying its good, some saying not so good, its a much broarder range than I'd expect. It is all programmer art, sorta... I used anim8or for the actual scene and used some donated models - the soldiers are ones I payed for, 18 quid.

I am also not doing this professionally, its actually my first shareware game...

I would work with a good artist in the future and I would have this time if I could, but I doubt that artist would work for free - I don't have enough money to go pro and I don't have a job :(

The amount of sales I was expecting to make is about 25 at the most - 10 quid per game (estimated price by Nexic). Remember, its going to have internet play and 12 gamemodes as well! ;)

EDIT:

I've just realised - I can't make things see through/translucent :-( (ie, windscreen). My HypersnapDX trial has run out (the way I got the prerenders of the soldier in the exact place time after time, from MS3D) and any attempts to... ahem... well, get past paying have been thwarted... problem with this is that they wont reach if I make the windscreen translucent, since the enemys are only from hip up :-/ I could always leave this one thing in and stop enemys from being placed behind glass in the future... With such a small sale expectancy I doubt I'll be dissapointed... hopefully.

[gmcbay]

I think the opinions you get on this sort of thing will also vary widely depending upon the genre of your game.

To be honest, a light-gun style game with graphics that aren't really high quality is a bit of a hard sell, IMO. Ditto for a FPS (at least one that isn't a hunting simulation or other niche) or a racing game, where the bar set by the commercial offerings is up in the stratosphere as far as art content goes.

[BedroomCoder]

Thats why I don't really expect to sell many copies. Is 25 a possible goal?

[oNyx]

Another thing: it's too dark.

House of the dead for example is much brighter.

Calibrate your monitor properly and ensure that it's still playable if you turn the monitor's brightness down by ~10% (to simulate things like older CRTs or unfavorable light).

[BedroomCoder]

Ok, question - presuming I cannot afford a decent artist and have a very low sales expectancy (25 sales), do you think I should bother continuing this game?

[techbear]

You're talking about two different things here; recieving painful criticism, and making nice-looking games when you're not an artist. These are very different.

Everyone recieves criticism. VERY little of it is educated or constructive, and NONE of it is painless. How do we deal with it? There's only one way, and that's to believe in yourself.

I know that sounds trite, but let me explain. I love any form of criticism, I treasure it, because it's all useful to me. To do this, I have to be tough enough not to be destroyed by careless and hurtful words, BUT I have to be open enough to learn from those same words, because there's probably something constructive in there somewhere.

This state is achieved when you KNOW you exist to create games. If you feel you MIGHT make it as a musician, or an author, or maybe a plumber, and someday you'd like to try, you often undermine yourself with self-doubt. Other people on these forums have discussed "burning your bridges", as an economic thing you choose to do. When you tell yourself, "Yeah, I COULD try to form a band, or go work for Dad, but I'm ready to forgo those other lives and make games," then you've burned emotional bridges that would otherwise undermine your ego.

In short, only YOU can make you stop creating games. If you conquer your self-doubt in this regard, you become much more able to handle criticism. It also helps to have people who support you unconditionally, and listen to you simpathetically, like a wife, family, or friends.

Read Jackie Chan's autobiography. He went through a HELL of a lot of rejection and failure before he became a big star, and he quit several times, but was always drawn back to acting because it was simply what he HAD to do.

Now, make your game better, and come right back at your critics with newer better versions. You'll be surprised at how quickly they turn around, and start paying you complements. Many critics will be impressed that you kept working, and flattered that you listened to them (even if they didn't mean to be constructive).

********
How does a programmer make a good looking game? there are many, many different ways.

You could brush up on your art skills. You could hire an artist. You could collaborate with an artist. You can buy art pieces (which you've already done). But here's the real trick. You'll always need Art Direction more than you'll need art.

Art is making a car look good. Art Direction is making the game look good as a whole. This means that spending an hour with an artist, listening to her tell you how to make the game prettier, is often better than getting an hour's worth of artwork from her.

If you can't afford, or can't find an artist, don't despair. Recognize your strengths and weaknesses, and design your game to emphasize one and minimize the other. Is your HUD the worst-looking thing in your game? Get rid of it! Design something new, different, something that works for you. Don't feel like you're damaging your product vision, look at it as inspired design-under-pressure.

Put more simply, pretty graphics are just another roadblock. Go under it, over it, through it, but don't let it stop you.

(Hopefully helpful) rant off. :)

[BedroomCoder]

Thats the thing - I don't always beleive in myself. I have made up to about 20 unsucsessful games before and each time its been due to bad graphics or bad crits. I have recently had another rather novelty idea for a game and I'm not sure to dodge this game (because I know the graphics are not going to get THAT much better - sure I can improve the GUI/HUD and everything, but I can't hire an artist and my modeling is pants!) or continue.

When you say "Art direction" - I take it, as part of that you mean making the game so the quality and graphic style stays the same throughout the entire game?

The thing you said - "Recognize your strengths and weaknesses, and design your game to emphasize one and minimize the other" is very true, but I just had so many new things to move onto with this game, I mean I have an A class music guy offering his talent for free, I have the possibility of prerenderd movies (which is what my graphics are), I have the possibility of internet play and I have this urge to do a time crisis game - however I now am not sure weather to carry on with it or quit for a more text + GUI based game.

I don't really want to give up the game, but given the graphic situation I might consider it. I don't have a high sales expectancy at all, in fact as sales go its apparently pretty low, and I feel that thats come in on its own because of my lack of self confidence and confidence in my games. Sometimes the game is actually very addictive - I have had two people over to my house recently that I couldnt pry off the PC, and have had somebody saying it looked "sexy" (dont ask), and some guys at school giving it some real good C&C. Sometimes even I get addicted, but it pains me to think about the graphic situation sometimes. Oh what am I doing up at 5 AM worrying about my graphics? :p

But - remaining question - given the amount of sales I wanted, do you think its worth continuing?




And - er - wife?!?! I'm only 14! ;) :p

[techbear]

I didn't believe in myself when I was 14 either. Or when I was 18. Or 25. Or 30. Now I'm 38, and I have a nephew your age. :)

BUT, I was mad into making games when I was 14, just like you. I won't bore you with talk of old-school tech. I just have simple advice. Don't worry. Enjoy yourself. You have SO much time. It'll all work out GREAT!

BTW, you write very well for 14.

[BedroomCoder]

lol liek thx i dont try 2 talk liek thsi all tha tiem coz it irritates me lol!!!11


:D

[Tubular]

That was a really good pep-talk by techbear. :)

I think even looking for 25 sales might be overly optimistic, but that's no reason to give up on the game. The real goal should be to learn from your projects so your next ones will be better. I think the key is to learn one or two new techniques or technologies with each project, and eventually you'll be an expert in some area. I've been making games for more than ten years, but I didn't release my first shareware game until this year, because it was the first time I was sure I was an expert in all the fields I needed to get it done. (Except art. I also was told I had "shit" art in my beta versions. So "art" can be what I learned this time. ;) ) Even now, it's not ultra-innovative or massive, it's just polished, and a test to see how well I can market and sell a game. Starting with the next project I'll be moving into innovation. :D

So my advice is, as long as you're learning and you're trying something new, keep it up. And if you get bored and want to switch to something else, don't cry over it. Just make sure you're excited enough about your new project to forget about your old one. And you never know, you may come back to it in five years with some experience and make a bestseller out of it.

That, and the plot comes off sounding a little racist. "Kick giant amounts of Arab butt." Sure, the Saudi Arabian Terrorist route is a tried and true source of bad guys, but considering current events you might want to excersize more delicate word choice. That, and "Saudi rebels" taking over the US doesn't make a lot of sense... By definition, shouldn't rebels be trying to take over their own country, and not someone else's?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and techbear's right, it helps to have a wife. Maybe that's why I didn't release my first game until this year? ;)

[oddvark]

Here's my two cents...oh wait...I only have one cent...anyway here it is.

Making games is a bit of a risk to the ego...in someways its like putting yourself out there for other people to critisize / cut you down or praise / lift you up. I've gone through this myself, and I now believe that this is HOW a person gains a healthy ego. Its all about risk...you got to risk something to gain something. And thats how you get better/grow. But really, if you can handle it, its a win win situation....because even a failure is a gain...perhaps even a bigger gain.

So if your really only expecting 25 sales, then you must be doing it for some other reason. Whatever your motivations are, BELIEVE in yourself, and try your hardest. But realize that it may hurt your ego somewhat, so do as others have said, surround yourself with those who will support you. To this I'd like to add something: find something else to do as well, something that your good at too. And spend sometime with that...it will serve as a great distractor, and also will help keep you grounded...and then you'll come back to making your game with a fresher mind.

[luggage]

Here's my comments based on the screenshots.

* Don't give up! It's quite common to get despondant once you're into a project. Finishing a game is quite difficult and you just have to force yourself to do it. "Last 10% of the game takes 90% of the time". There's promise there and you'll feel a lot more confident if you get it finished, get a website up and get it online for people to buy.

* Artwork wise, try making the windscreen dark grey/black with a few white lines for 'shinyness'. With it being the same colour as the car makes it look worse than it actually is. Give the cars some colour as well rather than just plane grey.

* The screenshots look quite dark, this is ok for the odd level but you'll need some brighter ones in there.

* The hud being updated would help loads. Red is a harsh colour, it's usually used when ammo is running low or something. Go for a translucent green or blue. Try and get your icons about the same size. The little gun is about right so make the health cross a bit bigger, and reduce the height of the other 2 icons. You can the right align the values for these in a column.

* Try and get a nicer font. The one you have works well for the title but for everything else it's a touch small.

* I guess the text at the bottom is information regarding the current enemy you have targetted. Probably better tightening it up and stick it in a box in the bottom left corner rather than popping it up anywhere on screen.

One thing to remember is if you're struggling with art you can bet there'll be an artist somewhere struggling with some gamemaker. Ask around on message boards and see if you can find someone who wants to join you in the project. Offer them a 50-50 cut off anything you might make. You've got a headstart on some folk who ask for artists by at least having a demo for a potential aritst to play. Hopefully you'll find someone, and if you do you'll find your motivation for the project will return.

For now stick at it, find some art tutorials and look at it as a good learning exercise.

[yanuart]

lol... well I guess this is what you'll get if you r 14 and ask ppl for critics without knowing the consequences :D
my opinion is :
1. A shareware games has come a long way since the days of Doom. If you look at the shareware games across the net, you'll see how they look art-wise. Try to compare them with yours, maybe you'll notice the difference.

2. A game is a complex medium which requires art skills and tech skills to develop. I don't think one can be both at the same time, try to team up with friends who share your passion in making games.

3. Don't let your ego and hormones control you.. If you're a self centered person then don't ask ppl for opinions, don't ask ppl to join your team. Eventually you'll understand what it's all about..

4. I think that ppl in this forum are all nice person.. they give you critics and inputs without using any rude word but that doesn't mean you should take it lightly. For me "your arts look like shit" and "you need to improve your art alot" sounds the same, how about you ?

anyway.. good luck with your journey :D i was 14 too back then..

[princec]

er, are we looking at the same page? I didn't see any texturing on the cars at all!

Cas :)

[BedroomCoder]

I think its just meant to be a white car :-/

[vjvj]

I'll put a positive spin on things here and say that this artwork actually does say some good things about the artist. Most artists completely ignore technical boundaries and throw massive 512x512x32 textures on everything, and while it looks good your memory footprint and cache performance goes down the toilet. So starting with artwork like this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I probably wouldn't ship with this art, though :)

You're getting a lot of banding which is indicative of either low resolution or low bit depth. For example, 16bit and subtle gradiations are usually a bad combination (like the 2nd screenshot of the white car). This could be either the source textures themselves or your framebuffer. You might want to bump up the bit depth to 32bit, or if you are using a 16bit framebuffer try enabling dithering.

Another possibility would be to ditch the textures entirely on the single color objects (like the white car), just use vertex coloring/lighting and throw a specular on there for some shine. You'll have to experiment and try to find the best combination.

I guess I should first ask the question of, are the cars 3d models or are they sprites? They look like 3d models but I just wanna make sure :)

[BedroomCoder]

3d models. Sadly my programming language only supports 16 bit and lower...

I plan to make about 2 sales at the least, and probably the most, since the games 10 quid to buy - 20 quid - covers my 18 quid soldier 3d model fee.

I think that with a .co.uk paid for by my parents (my sister has a mag subscription, I havent - so its sorta something I could have) and possibly showing around the free demo of my game to as many people as possible, I might be able to scrape together 2 sales, even with these graphics - although I do have a nicer HUD coming along now. Smoother edges, green, translucent, more of a basic symbol for the gun, and a better fitted font. :)

[Reactor]

When you're trying to work out if your textures look good, BedroomCoder, check out the textures on big selling games (like UT2004, Halo, for example) and think carefully about the differences between yours and theirs. Do you like theirs more, and if so, why? Read up on how the pro guys make their textures, and what it is that makes them look so good. Aim high, instead of aiming for 'ok'. Good effort for a guy just starting out... but I think over the next few years you'll look back at the graphics you have now and understand why your programmer friend had such a strong reaction to them.

[BedroomCoder]

I know what you mean, but I fear that if I aim high I will be dissapointed. I must admit, it definatly wasnt a good game genre to try as a beginner in the shareware field, but now I'm making it and the gameplay isnt all that bad (although the graphics bring it down), I think its probably better to continue it.

I just want to make back the money that I lost, thats all. Any more money made is a bonus, but tbh, its not the fact I have some money out of a game, its that someone thought my game was good enough to hand over [insert game price here]. And if someone thinks my games that good, then I must be doing SOMETHING right. :p

I don't actually have any texturing experiance, and am working with ammy tools and donated models. My last project actually failed too, because of this - it was my feeble attempt at an FPS, but the texturing never got done on the 3D models, or the animation, and I ended up with bright green, non animated men wielding shotguns and pistols. :(


I am planning to learn another language (in fact I've already made a start on C++/C) after my current one, because beleive it or not, I have to use mpegs for the 3d! The language does not support 3d models. (I'm talking about the windows compiler here, not the original DOS version - a DLL was made for that to let it do software rendered 3D.) I've been told that if a demo is under 20 MB then its acceptable, and so far I'm 13 MB for the 2 demo "locations", so I'm fine on that.

[Reactor]

Don't worry about being disappointed. If you're not a naturally good artist being disappointed with your work is just part of the journey towards being a good one. I've been disappointed with my own work so many times I've lost count... in fact, there are a number of things I've done recently that make me want to scream they look so sub-par to me. But, I'm getting better and better each and every day, and I know that one day I'll be able to hold my own with the best of them.

Better than aiming low and knowing you'll never reach your target, methinks. Start aiming high today, and learning all you can, and one day I believe your programmer of a friend will aspire to be just like you. Remember- it's one thing to make your money back, and another to say you learnt from what it is you did, and are better for it.

[oNyx]

I agree with Reactor. Aim high. You're just 14... you'll get a lot better with everything during the next couple of years. Talent is there, just some practise is missing. :)

[BantamCityGames]

This is not a response to your specifici graphics, but if its one thing I've learned in the short period of time I've been making games its that graphics matter ALOT. I know there was once a psychology about making games that said if the game play is great than you don't need good graphics. Basically I'm saying this is a bunch of bologna. If you are selling your games, customers love flashy smooth looking graphics and with the fierce competition out there, they wont settle for anything less. Make your graphics as good as you can, smooth, flashy, attractive. People don't download games with crappy graphics.

[BedroomCoder]

Because they are idiots. I wish people had more sence... Quote from Maddox:

"Remember when it was okay for a video game to not have convex volumetric fog rendering and bilinear interpolated textures to be fun? Since when did it become acceptable for 30% of your system's resources to be devoted to rendering shadows, atmospheric scattering, ambient light effects, and all this other superfluous bullshit that game coders keep adding to their engines so they can win some imaginary pissing contest?

Nobody cares about graphics if the game plays like dog shit. I'm bored to tears with first person shooters. Changing the theme from one time period to another isn't enough anymore, assholes. Did someone beat you to the punch on that killer WWII shooter you were making? Don't worry, just take the same concept, change a few textures, and call it Battlefield Vietnam. We won't notice. Hell, why not Battlefield Korea?"

Anyway I've taken the game price down to a fiver so its more likely that some people will buy it now, and I have to aim for 4 sales to break even now. I've already got one guy saying he will buy it.

I will aim higher on my next game, because the chosen "genre" is easier to do graphics for. Its sorta a horror/detective game with a PDA style interface, recive emails, look at evidence, etc. It wouldnt really even have a budget, and I don't need to learn a new language to do it, because its going to be 2D - I'm also planning to team up with a artist whos looking for a coder. Better planned - I just want to finish CLONES and break even.



Better than aiming low and knowing you'll never reach your target, methinks. Start aiming high today, and learning all you can, and one day I believe your programmer of a friend will aspire to be just like you. Remember- it's one thing to make your money back, and another to say you learnt from what it is you did, and are better for it.

Hows about doing that for the next game, where I have a chance of meeting a higher target? :p

[EpicBoy]

Maddox sounds bitter and oh-so-edgy.

[Anthony Flack]

Nobody cares about graphics if the game plays like dog shit.


That's true - people only need one reason to hate your game, and either graphics or gameplay will do.

[BedroomCoder]

Maddox sounds bitter and oh-so-edgy.

Hehehehehe... you havent heard of him?

Man hes B list famous... http://www.maddox.xmission.com

[Ricardo C]

Edited because I can :rolleyes:

[Reactor]

Hows about doing that for the next game, where I have a chance of meeting a higher target?

Well... okay. But just this once ;)

[tentons]

Some art direction info (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=3252388) here. Maybe you'll find it helpful.

The easiest way to start defining art direction is by stating what it is NOT. It is not marketing. It is not advertising. It is not the design, it is not the images, and it is not the layout but rather a sum of all of these parts and more. It is the overall. It’s the big picture that is built upon by the smaller details. Impressionistic.
However, art direction is anything but random, particularly as it reaches into the realm of consumerism. It might be difficult to see all of the inner workings of direction but there is a very apparent effect.

[BedroomCoder]

Heh, thanks for that.

In fact, I am currently taking a graphics GCSE course, and don't tell my parents, but I suck at it and I'm failing :(



Now, what was in the post that you edited? :p

[GBGames]

What made you want to make this game? Did you want to make something to sell? Are you trying to live off of shareware as a business? Did you want to make something fun and possibly make a little money on the way?

As mentioned, goals and motivation go hand in hand. Why do this in the first place?

As for your doubts, keep this in mind: successful people do things that unsuccessful people only talk about. Go ahead and set your goals high. Keep them realistic, but keep them high. If you set small, insignificant goals, you will only attempt to accomplish small, insignificant tasks. If you set huge, amazing goals, you will attempt to accomplish huge, amazing tasks. Even if you fail, the attempt is a learning experience. You can analyze what caused you to fail, fix it, and try again.

The reason why successful people do things is because they are action oriented. If someone wants to make video games, it is probably because they love video games and want to make something themselves. But it isn't enough to just want to make them. You have to actually do so. You've already made it to the point where you have a game, so realize that you've already surpassed a large portion of the population of game making wannabes. Most people don't get to make it past the "Let's make a cool MMORPG" phase.

[EpicBoy]

Man hes B list famous... http://www.maddox.xmission.com
Ugh.

(too short too short too short)

[BedroomCoder]

But these ones are realistic... I already said, I am going to set higher goals for other games. I might get over 4 sales, I don't know, but any more than 4 is a bonus. I already failed with a game called SURREAL - sure it was unsucsessful, but it didnt cost me a thing and I learnt stuff in the process. Thing is that learning just doesnt give me the incentive anymore - I've been "learning" for ages now, I just want to make one decent game with the knowlage I already have.

I already have 2 people now who say they would pay a fiver each for the game, now I just need another 2 - theres one other guy whos just having problems thinking how to pay (parents don't want to lend him chequebook and he hasnt got paypal or anything).

I made this game because I had a great combo of possibilitys and ideas come to me at the same time that would fit in one game. I love game programming but dont want to lose money on my game - by getting enough money to just break even, I will not lose any money and will actually know that getting my game is enough insentive to hand over a fiver.

That feeling is enough to keep me going learning C++/C and programming another 5 games! Its like fuel. As long as its genuine - its usually genuine when theres a fiver to back it up ;) :p

Dont get me wrong, I love programming. Go to http://www.freewebs.com/bedroomcoder/blam.htm and http://www.freewebs.com/bedroomcoder/shape.htm, and you will see 2 free games I made. I loved making them but they are a bit basic :) They are converted to Dreamcast! woot! :D


Also, can I get this topic closed please? Its distracting me from my game making, heh.

[C_Coder]

For a programmer as young as you I would suggest you to begin with 2D graphics since they are easier to do than 3D, at least in my case. :p

You would get experience until you are good enough to do good 3D games.

[BedroomCoder]

Yeah, next projects 100% 2D. This ones just .mpgs with a graphic overlay, in fact, cause my programming language doesnt support 3D (I'm talking about the Windows version here). Cant really reprogram the game in another language so I'll just stick it out for now and never make the same move again :p



But 7th guest + 11th hour rocked. :D

[Anthony Flack]

Hold it... your backgrounds are actually pre-rendered mpeg movies...?

I suggest you pop over to www.blitzbasic.com sometime.

[BedroomCoder]

I have seen the lanuage - and let me tell you, I will never, never use BASIC. I fucking hate it. I'd rather code in binary.

Also the lanaugage I'm using has always had a grudge/thing against Blitz, (div/fenix has better lanaguage, blitz better capeablilitys) and I would'nt want to be disloyal :p

Seriously, C++ after this.

[Yossarian]

IMO, grudges are kinda silly. Having a prefered platform is one thing (I, for instance, prefer Cold Fusion for a variety of reasons), but if something better comes along that provides more power and quicker development cycles, with better performance, I won't discount it out of hand.

All of these RAD tools just help you from having to reinvent the wheel all the time. It isn't sissy coding or anything like that, it is maximizing productivity to get good results. And Blitz or any of these are definately capable of turning out the same style of game you've made here. Making more work out for yourself out of loyalty is kind of an Ostrich head in the sand approach to success...

Using MPEGs definately sounds strange to me as well.

[Reactor]

...more power and quicker development cycles, with better performance, I won't discount it out of hand.

Good advice there. If it gives you these things, code in it. End of story. Even after doing our own game in full C++, my brother mentioned to me that he looks forward to using a scripting language next time, so things can be done a lot faster.

[Phil Newton]

I have seen the lanuage - and let me tell you, I will never, never use BASIC. I fucking hate it. I'd rather code in binary.

Your loss matey =) I think it's quite a nice language to use, really good for doing games. Despite popular myth, C++ is not the greatest thing ever created.

MPEGs for backgrounds reminds me of the old Lethal Enforcers arcade game. One of my favourites, though most machines I see now are in the back of a really smokey room and so poorly calibrated that you can't hit anything. A shame.

[BedroomCoder]

Ok, but I don't think I wanna convert my game to Blitz or another language - future games, sure, why not. I agree I need to know another language, but I already learnt the 6 introduction chapters that came with my C++/C compiler, so I am flat out going for it. As for the grudge, well its not like we provoked it; "blitz knights" just used to spam and hack our forum for no reason, and we used to do it back... big fight.

I also tried DB once... absolutely - bloody - hated it. Basic Goddamn confuses me more than all those brackets in C/C++ (and beleive me I have opened some other guys really complex code before, stuff for DLL's about 9 brackets a line!).

Do I really have to code in basic? Please, no, please. I really really really hate it. Really. tried it. Hated it. Tried it again, hated it. Really, please. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese!

[Phil Newton]

Nobody will force you to use anything, it's just an idea to try.

DarkBasic has some very strange syntax. I used a bit of DB before switching to Blitz, and it was the best thing I ever did. Blitz Syntax seemed much nicer than what I'd used with DB, and I settled in really quickly.

Never heard of Blitz Knights, so can't really comment on that.

[Ricardo C]

Your loss matey =) I think it's quite a nice language to use, really good for doing games. Despite popular myth, C++ is not the greatest thing ever created.

MPEGs for backgrounds reminds me of the old Lethal Enforcers arcade game. One of my favourites, though most machines I see now are in the back of a really smokey room and so poorly calibrated that you can't hit anything. A shame.

Another vote in favor of Basic here. Maybe it's sentimental atachment, since it's the language I got started with (at age 11 on an old 8088 with 640k RAM and no hard drive :D), but I'm still quite fond of it. I'm currently developing using Conitec's 3D GameStudio (and I do love me some C-Script), but I have my eye on the Blitz family for the future.

[Bluecat]

Do I really have to code in basic? Please, no, please. I really really really hate it. Really. tried it. Hated it. Tried it again, hated it. Really, please. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese!

Why don't you try Python?

It's a nice, fairly clean language, and easy to use. Development time is amazingly fast. When I first tried it out, I hacked out a simple Forth interpreter in two to three hours, and most of that time was spent looking up the docs to see how to do something in the language. Blew me away how quick it was to do.

PyGame is available for Win32/OSX/Linux, and for other packages like Ogre, there are also Python bindings available. Even if you have your own low level C++ libs, it's not hard to get them working with Python using something like Boost.Python.

[Jak]

Another vote in favor of Basic here. Maybe it's sentimental atachment, since it's the language I got started with (at age 11 on an old 8088 with 640k RAM and no hard drive :D), but I'm still quite fond of it.
640k!! Whoa, lucky guy. My first had 4k and a tape drive until I spent $100 to get a 16k expansion pack, hahaha. Ahhh, those were the days.

[Bluecat]

640k!! Whoa, lucky guy. My first had 4k and a tape drive until I spent $100 to get a 16k expansion pack, hahaha. Ahhh, those were the days.

That sounds suspicously like a Vic20...

[EpicBoy]

I have seen the lanuage - and let me tell you, I will never, never use BASIC. I fucking hate it. I'd rather code in binary.
I agree. I mean, why would you actually want to finish your game in a reasonable amount of time? By all means, hand roll everything...

[Phil Newton]

That sounds suspicously like a Vic20...

Exactly what I was thinking. I still have mine in my room, complete with tape deck and 16K expansion. Truly a great machine. The only computer I like more is my old Atari ST.

By all means, hand roll everything...

I used to write all of my code, but recently I've started to prefer just getting things done. I'd rather not mess around with networking if I can just use a standard library to do it for me. I still enjoy writing code, but I'd rather write the actual game as opposed to scripting, graphics, sound and networking code.

[Bluecat]

Exactly what I was thinking. I still have mine in my room, complete with tape deck and 16K expansion. Truly a great machine. The only computer I like more is my old Atari ST.


Alas. No longer. I gave mine away to a family friend a few years ago now, for their granddaughters use.

It was a cool machine. I had the 16K expansion, as well as the Assembly Language cartridge and a expander board with (IIRC) four slots on it. Aside from the Apple 2e in the high school physics lab, I learnt a whole lot on that machine.

[BedroomCoder]

I agree. I mean, why would you actually want to finish your game in a reasonable amount of time? By all means, hand roll everything...

I just really hate BASIC. If thats what it takes to get into the industry I'd much rather give up game making altogether.

Also I'm learning C++/C because I aspire to possibally work in the industry someday and I'd like to have some basic C++/C knowlage before I get to college/uni/whereever I'd be taking the course (yes I know its not all C++/C and that there will probably be Basic there but at least when I got to an industy they wont go "right, you must code in basic." At least I really bloody hope not. And having "knows C++ and the Allegro/OpenGL/insert API name here" on my resume would look good too :) ). I also love learning C++/C almost as much as coding in Div/Fenix!

But this is straying from the topic :P

I have my 4 sales now, well, 4 people who say they would pay a fiver when its out - almost all of them are people that say they loved the demo, liked internet games, thought it played good, etc. Also I've changed the HUD now! Its green and translucent, and theres less red text, its all green and is shaded/has gradients. Theres still red text for the lil thing by the crosshair though, but thats all its used for. Theres also bigger spaces between the text now.

[EpicBoy]

I think you have some sort of irrational fear of BASIC, but to each his own.

[Jak]

That sounds suspicously like a Vic20...
But Vic20s had 20k right off the bat, didn't they?... Nah, mine was a Radio Shack MC10 Micro Color Computer. :)

[BedroomCoder]

I think you have some sort of irrational fear of BASIC, but to each his own.

Might be something to do with me crying and throwing DB in the bin after spending about 2 + 1/2 months struggling with it...

[Phil Newton]

Might be something to do with me crying and throwing DB in the bin after spending about 2 + 1/2 months struggling with it...

Kudos for lasting that long with it. I used it for a while, but when I switched to Blitz everything just worked.

[BedroomCoder]

Hmmmm, might try blitz if its differant than DB. But I havent really seen a game done in Blitz I've liked yet :(

For 2D games I'd still use Div/Fenix, cause it was especially made for them. But yeah maybe I'll check blitz if it really IS differant...

[mahlzeit]

Considering your age (meaning that you have plenty of time ahead of you), I'd learn as many languages, libraries, platforms and toolkits as possible. The more you know, the better. When you know 5 languages, you'll pick up the 6th in no time. :)

[Uhfgood]

I've also come into contact with people who have this irrational fear of basic, I really don't know why. Maybe it's the line numbers or peeks and pokes. Who knows? At least blitz has gotten rid of that (well they have peek and poke functions for databanks but you don't have to use them). I've heard numerous people say they don't like the *basic langauges becasue of DB. I guess it's really buggy and unfriendly to use, I don't know i've never used it, but blitz is way easy.

Getting back onto topic, I would say art-wise that you should just try to learn the art. A majority of your time is spent learning, you'll always be learning. Don't know what vector math is? Then learn it. Don't know how to write music, try to learn enough to at least start on your own or at least enough to know what you're talking about to a musician.

Like wise with art. If you can't afford to pay anyone anything, you might as well learn it yourself. They say copying is the best form of flattery, with that in mind why not copy texture art. Now to be sensible you don't want to drag someone elses textures and use them in your game, or anyone elses sprites for that matter, but what you might do is look at the kinds of games similar to yours, study the textures and try to apply it to your own.

Go on the net and find any number of photoshop or paint-shop-pro tutorials to get the effect you want. And just generally practice making art in a paint/photo program. Eventually you'll get good enough to get over the programmer art hump, and maybe good enough that real artists want to help you.

Just keep finishing games, eventually doors open up to you, maybe you could get a job programming for someone else if that's what you really like doing, really the sky's the limit.

[Bluecat]

But Vic20s had 20k right off the bat, didn't they?...

Nope. At least mine didn't. That doesn't mean that later they didn't offer that, but they didn't when I first bought mine... or should I say, when my parents bought it. :)

[BedroomCoder]

I've also come into contact with people who have this irrational fear of basic, I really don't know why. Maybe it's the line numbers or peeks and pokes. Who knows? At least blitz has gotten rid of that (well they have peek and poke functions for databanks but you don't have to use them). I've heard numerous people say they don't like the *basic langauges becasue of DB. I guess it's really buggy and unfriendly to use, I don't know i've never used it, but blitz is way easy.


I've been told this by some other programmer I know, too. I've heard of lots of people it teaches bad coding habits, but then again, I do already know the C/C++ and the DIV syntax (they are very much alike, actually), so I doubt basic will get a grip on me and change the way I think about code.

Ok, if I am to learn another "ammy" language, it'll be Blitz3D.


Getting back onto topic, I would say art-wise that you should just try to learn the art. A majority of your time is spent learning, you'll always be learning. Don't know what vector math is? Then learn it. Don't know how to write music, try to learn enough to at least start on your own or at least enough to know what you're talking about to a musician.

I know just about enough to talk to my music making guy and understand the lingo, yet I havent even met anybody who knows what vector math is. :rolleyes:

I also dow... erm... LEGITIMATLY PURCHASED fruity loops and made some stuff in it, but most of its not that good. Some of its ok I spose. I love the voice generator! I'm using it in some places in CLONES...

I also know that theres other programs like "Reason" and stuff as well.


Like wise with art. If you can't afford to pay anyone anything, you might as well learn it yourself. They say copying is the best form of flattery, with that in mind why not copy texture art. Now to be sensible you don't want to drag someone elses textures and use them in your game, or anyone elses sprites for that matter, but what you might do is look at the kinds of games similar to yours, study the textures and try to apply it to your own.

Heh... sometimes I've been known to use other peoples textures and modify them *to extremes* using PSP effects... and I've used others sprites as "stencils" I draw over to get the right shape of things as well...


Go on the net and find any number of photoshop or paint-shop-pro tutorials to get the effect you want. And just generally practice making art in a paint/photo program. Eventually you'll get good enough to get over the programmer art hump, and maybe good enough that real artists want to help you.

I got PSP and Mspaint (:p), and used Milkshape3D + Anim8or, and know of Lightwave, 3DSmax, etc. (My uncle was a 3d moddeler for Alien VS Predator and the graphic artist for SNOOD!)

Really though, I find it boring. I don't like sitting there moddeling something... I don't really think its my calling. I do enjoy it sometimes but those times are rare and few. 2D art, however, can keep me entertained for a while. I would rather save up cash and buy some decent art pieces instead of hire an artist - I could model the guns myself, maybe learn some basic animation techniques or stuff and some unwrapping to animate them, improvise with code to make them move when fired, etc. Also I don't know why but I feel all important when purchasing 3d models :p

But first, I need to learn a language that supports 3d ;) Blitz... C++... oh so hard to decide...

AND CLONES HAS BROKEN EVEN WOO!

[Evak]

There are a lot of decisions to be made when looking at game graphics, and much depends on the engine. I'd say that your car textures are a bit plain and you will have to prush up a little on your 2D skills.

You don't have enough contrast or colour in your textures, simply changing the windscreen woudl make a difference.

On the other hand much depends on your engine, how many polys it will push and what effects it can do. I have a car racing game I'm currently working on that uses almost no texture at all. It's done in blitz3D, and what makes the car look better than yours is simply more polys, and the seperation of materials plus some really simple brush FX.

http://s93153354.onlinehome.us/b3dviewer_1.avi

2mb WMV has a medium poly car 1600 polys including pretty high poly wheels lol. the body is only about 600.

the texture is nothing more than an animated colour chart, 8x8 pixels for colour, and a regular spherical environment map. the environment map has a 2x multiplier blend mode and the engine supports shinyness calculated per vertex.

http://s93153354.onlinehome.us/ColorChartb.png
http://s93153354.onlinehome.us/shade1.bmp

So its all about making the most of your tools, reason I went with this method was to do with the fact that we wanted an easy way to change the colours of the cars, and have custom paint combinations.

ANyway if your engine doesn't support these features so you can't give an impression of detail you have to start off with defining different surface properties in your textures, and then adding detail where needed.

Takes a lot of practice to do anything well, and good tools help a lot.

anyway good luck with that, just thought I'd show an example where you don't need good textures to make a pretty nice looking car.

[Anthony Flack]

His engine doesn't support ANY 3d. It's a pre-rendered mpeg - so anything goes.

Personally, if I were using pre-rendered footage as my background, I'd probably just go out with a video camera and make my backgrounds that way. Make a virtue of the technology rather than a poor imitation of the "correct" way to do it.

[BedroomCoder]

I don't have one or know anyone who has one :(

But I wanted to achive the 1990s arcade sorta graphics anyway, so there is a another reason for it being computer done :)