To quit or not to quit?

[MrPhil]

Hey all. I've been struggling lately to make time to work on my game project and it has caused me to seriously consider ways to quit my job and work full time on my project without starving etc. I'd love to hear everyone's perspective on what I am sure is all too familiar territory.

There seems to be two major schools of though, the first being the "Focus School" that states by quitting your job you burn the boats (or crutches) you are relying on and truly focus on making things happen. The second school of though is what I like to call "Pay Your Dues School." All artists, musicians, actors, film makers, and writers, have "day job" periods in there life where they support themselves doing something that isn't related to their art to pay the bills.

I'm leaning towards the "Pay Your Dues" side because I can see no evidence that indie games are any different than the other types of art and the reality is that my first few attempts at publishing a game are probably not going to be very profitable. I might be able to sell all my worldly possession and live off the proceeds in a shack out in nowhere Mississippi (or other lonely but cheap land) for a year or so but is that really enough time to go from learning the trade to successful developer? Instead of day dreaming about ways to quit my job, should I just focus my energy into the game making and better plan the use of my time and energy?

[Mark Fassett]

All I can say is that you can't expect to make enough to live on right away if you quit (especially if your game isn't finished) - so make sure you can trim your expenses enough to make whatever money you have in the bank last a year or two (the longer the better). If you can't do that, you'll find yourself looking for another job or doing contract work just to keep the power on. If you can, wait until you've got the first game done, so that you have, at least, the potential for income right away.

[Dan MacDonald]

Writing to you from the pay your dues school, nothing magical happens when you quit your job. You have more time, but you honestly struggle with the same things. It's like we get so used to working for other people with carrots out in front and a stick at our back that we have a hard time self motivating. I know people who have quit and then went on to get less done then I was when I was working full time and doing indie stuff. The few people who I know who have made "Focus" work, are people with freshly or nearly completed games.

Basically before you can really benefit for the Focus school of thought, you have to have achieved all the skill credits that the "pay your dues" school of though has to offer. It's time to level up!

[monco]

1) How are your time mgmt skills?
2) How big a project have you undertaken?

I'm working on my first arcade style game and am keeping it relatively simple so I can complete it in a few months during off hours. With no kids and a wife that travels, my problem isn't finding the time, it's fighting burnout after working in software development for 8 hours a day.

Good luck.

[Jonas]

I suppose it also depends a lot on your makeup. Some folks NEED to burn their ships because otherwise they are apt to never commit because there's always S-mart to fall back on, etc.

Now IF you are a disciplined person, and you don't think of this as a hobby, then keeping your day job can certainly make sense. But it can't be a " well if this thing doesnt' work out I can just go back to the cubicle" in IMO, thats not the entrepreneurial spirit that an indie developer needs to MAKE things succeed.

However, if you think of your day job as TEMPORARY funding source, and you don't let it be a crutch, you're cool and it might make your project more likely to be finished.

It's really a question you have to ask yourself. Because only you know how and what motivates you, and you are the only one that knows how well much you want to make your indie games happen.

Being an employee and being a business owner is not all that similar. I think thats one reason why most startups fail ( small businesses as a whole).

Being an employee with benefits, a sense of security (whether false or not) and the things that go behind the scenes that we don't see until we're the ones dealing with it are all now on our shoulders once we creep out from under the rock.

So developing those skills while still paying the bills with your day job can work and be the better route.

Personally, having the wolf at your door and flying by the seat of your pants is more my style. Sometimes ya gotta shed your skin. I did my 1st sky dive this summer, and there is just something about standing at the gaping hole on the plane and thinking " you know, I could sit back down or I could step out" and knowing that there isn't an undo button once you leave that plane. Your committed to make it work.

Sounds like you have a pretty good grasp of the issues though, so be true to your gut MrPhil.

[mahlzeit]

the reality is that my first few attempts at publishing a game are probably not going to be very profitable
If you are not convinced that you are going to be successful, then don't start.

If you are convinced of your success, then make a plan that eliminates risk (and debt!) as much as possible. Maybe this is not the right time to quit your job. There are alternatives: If you need more hours to work on the game, you might find a way to reduce the hours you are working. Or if the job eats away all your creative energy, switch to a job that doesn't. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

[Jonas]

If you are not convinced that you are going to be successful, then don't start.


I couldn't agree more.

[svero]

Well for me as a developer there's no question that I can focus much better when Im only working on one thing. When I was coding for my day job before I got little or nothing done at night. After a day staring at the machine I'm pretty burned at the end of the day. I don't feel like coding anymore. There is definitely something to the burning your bridges argument. If my games don't make money I dont pay the rent and dont eat.

However. That being said. The indie game business is a tough tough business. And right now there's more competition than usual. Unless you have a lot of resources, quitting to finish the first game is a pretty risky prospect indeed. In fact I'd say on average it will probably lead to very few sales and some dissapointment. Some people may have a big hit with their first title, but the fact is that most people don't. If I wanted to focus more on games and work was getting in the way I might consider taking a job that didnt involve computers just to help pay the bills, or dropping down to part time work as a first measure.

[princec]

What he said. I'm planning on it taking 5 years before I'm earning enough money from games to be able to even consider quitting the day job. I'm 2 years into that 5 year plan and still only have about 130 sales total to my name but things are swinging upwards.... very slowly. I put in at least as much effort every day on the games business as I do in my day job (which unfortunately is exceedingly tiring). I think it's a patience game.

Cas :)

[baegsi]

That's an interesting question. I think, nobody can answer it for you. It really depends on what you want to be and what you are willing to give. Of course it is always safer to have a day job and work on your game only in your spare time. You won't have any pressure, you can take your time to learn the necessary technical skills and maybe, who knows, you land a hit and can start from there. That is the most sane advice someone can give. For me that's not the way I want to go, because more than making games I want to be self-employed and running my own business. And this requires completly different skills.

I want to learn those skills as soon as possible and safety is not the right kind of motivation for me to do that. It is like playing a wall street computer game versus buying real stocks with your own real money. You behave different when it is your money that's at stake. The indie game businnes is tough, but any business is tough, there's no easy way to make a living on your own. This board here gives an incredible clear picture of the indie business and the odds are that it will take some time until you can live from it, so you either have a lot of resources or you need a different income. I do consulting and opened a small school for computer training for beginners, which is a perfect situation, because I can pay my bills and learn how to do business. And should this fail, I do something different until I find my way.

But as it was said before: most of all you need to be convinced of yourself that you really want live this kind of life and do everything that's needed to be successful, because for a very long time you will be the only person that believes in you.

Good luck with your decision :)

[Zbigniew]

You can always have a part time job so that there's some money coming in and still alot of time to work on a project.

[vidalsasoon]

get a working model of your game before you do anything stupid.

[MrPhil]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

@Mark Fassett - sound advice.

@Dan MacDonald - This is one of my biggest fears, that I'll quit and then turn into a lazy, unproductive blob.

@monco - I'm in a similar situation, programmer by day and its hard to muscle myself back to programming at night. At least, I'm single with no kids and don't have that sucking up time and energy (not that they don't have there pluses ;) )

@Jonas - Your right in many ways, I think maybe my problem is discipline and managing my energy. I average about 8 hours a week of work on the game business and I feel embarrassed about that, but at the same time it seems really hard to squeeze more hours in.

@mahlzeit (and Jonas) - I do think I'll be successful in the long run, but I also expect to have some failures too, especially in the beginning.

@svero - I can identify with the energy problem, which I guess is the real problem I'm trying to solve. Quitting my day job would give me more time and energy to put into my game project. I don't want to quit just for the sake of quitting ;)

@baegsi - I see your point, but to me a day job is less time consuming than starting some other business.

@ Zbigniew - this is something to consider

@vidalsasoon - clean and simply advice, I love it.

I'm mostly convinced at this time that the day job has to stay. It offers a lot of advantages like I can afford to hire a maid, which saves me some time each week. Pays the bills, and will probably help pay for some artwork, etc down the road. The other factor is that without hitting the lottery the amount of cash I can tap is limited and the logistics of it all doesn't really buy me that much time. And as everyone has pointed out there's a lot of risk in expecting a modest income from game very quickly.

I think my real problem is motivation, procrastination, planning and management of time and energy.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback.

[monco]

@monco - I'm in a similar situation, programmer by day and its hard to muscle myself back to programming at night. At least, I'm single with no kids and don't have that sucking up time and energy (not that they don't have there pluses )

I don't see how anyone could do this with a day job *and* kids. If someone out there is doing it, my hat's off to you.

[Sharpfish]

I've dragged this post up from the past.. I am interested in your (MrPhils) progress and decisions you took in the end.

For me, I have been unemployed since early April. I was working at Codemasters (UK) in a lower-end-of-the-pay-scale job and was(am) moving house in early june. It was the right time for me to leave and to get on with my games projects and I have done a LOT - working through the night especially reaped rewards... lately, I guess I have become burned out and it is not a nice feeling. You KNOW what you should be doing, you know if you had the energy you could implement stuff so easily (it's not rocket science) but something inside starts repelling you away from the keyboard. Burnout.. and not the nice kind (the game by criterion for example) ;)

I plan on getting a part time job not involving coding or games after I have moved, not just to bring money in - but to get me out of the coding environment. It is rare I see the sun these days (but then being from the U.K I should be used to that ;) ).

I have rarely allowed myself a night off. I have so much to do, at least 4 projects started with 2 "main" on target for june/july/august release that "simply must be done". To me it was the attitude If I don't push myself, no-one will and I will end up letting it slip.

So basically if you can avoid burnout you are good to go.

As many of you here will know, if you have been in this position, you get tired - very very mentally tired - your head is spinning with conflicting thoughts, code snippets, design ideas and real life™ concerns. Normally, I have pretty good clarity and focus and this knocks you for six. It is only temporary thank god and I have been here before so recognize that it is not that I have just suddenly become dumb and don't actually have any skills that matter.

I am wondering though about others work patterns. I know this depends on family / work etc - myself it is just me and my fiancee' here with no real stresses or commitments other than the rent and eating. I feel I am in a transitionary period again (which I welcome) where my sleeping patter goes from "almost normal" to staying up all night until 7/8/9am then sleeping for 6 hours in the day - up for tea time, bit of research and relax for an hour then into the coding for 10 hours.

While that may seem extreme, I found having done this for a period of 3 weeks or so (followed by the lull of 2 weeks I am now in) I get much more done in the dead of night with silence, no distractions, cool temperatures and a keen mind. Perhaps I just function better at night.

Anyway.. some random thoughts from a very tired coder.. what are yours?

[soniCron]

I am wondering though about others work patterns.
I'm in somewhat of the same boat. My wife has afforded me an opportunity to work full time on my project. She's got a full time job as a manager at a local deli, so I've usually got around 8 hours a day to work. In addition to that, I usually work about 8 more hours while she is sleeping. I don't take weekends off, though I'll take a half day off when she's got a day off. I usually spend about 15 minutes for lunch, 15 minutes for dinner, and a couple hours with my lady when she gets home from work.

If my brain starts to explode, I play a game (usually classics) for about 30 minutes, then get back to work. This usually re-inspires me and relaxes the tension in my head. I find that while I try to intentionally give myself breaks, I usually end up getting distracted by thoughts of my project floating around and go back to work.

I've been doing this for over 6 months now.

I admit it's very stressful, but I keep a patient mind knowing that every dollar I can bring into the home will only help me to continue my passion. I don't recommend anybody work as hard as I have, but I wouldn't change my working habits for the world. I rarely see the outside world, only see the sun through the windows, and can't remember the last time I talked to a person (besides my wife) face to face.

Despite all these stresses, I know the only way my wife and I can really take charge of our lives is to be financially independent. She has the faith in me to see this through, and I know I do everything in my power to make this a reality.

I've spent most of my life honing my skills as a musician, artist, and programmer. I've been a serious gamer since before I can remember and believe very strongly in video games as an art form, despite most people's reactions to what I am doing (usually dissenting comments). I am too talented and have worked too hard to waste my time doing anything but what I love.

[sparkyboy]

I feel for you buddy.
Years ago (between 1996-1998) I basically did nothing but code...code...code...

Finished up 2 dos games and 6 other proof of concept projects if you will,even dabbled with inline assembly for blitting and stuff.

I too,find the peace and tranquility of the evening to early hours much more productive than the daytime,and would find myself sleeping a few hours each afternoon,then working on the computer right through to next day(along with internet surfing :p )

Basically it was an obsession,I had just learned enough 'C' to be able to say to myself,'OK Mark you really can do this'.

I haven't done any programming really for a number of years(Lost all interest completely).I now find myself slowly becoming ruled by it again.Its both a blessing and a curse I suppose,but there you go.



Bleeding computers eh :D

All the best

Mark.

[MrPhil]

It’s prophetic that you would make a post today because I was mulling over the idea of quitting again last night. It has been five months since my last post in this thread and I’m unhappy with my progress. I get in between 10 and 30 hours a week of working on computer games, but most of my effort has gone into reading, research and experimenting.

I played a lot with T2D when it came out for example. I learned python. I have played with a lot of different libraries here and there. While these where worth while explorations of technology it hasn’t put me any closer to a finished game.

I can say that I now have a clearer picture of the game I’m making and I understand my strengths and weakness better. I’ve figured out that technology like T2D or GameStudio are actually counter-productive for me because they obscure my overall understanding. So even though working in C# will lead to some reinventing of the wheel, it fits my strengths as a programmer, and gives me the hands on experience I need to understand things.

I think I have a form of writer’s block that comes and goes but I’ve found that regular exercises, keeping up with chores and occasionally free days are the best defenses.

So I’ve made progress, just not in the way I was hoping. The biggest mistake I’ve made was not respecting the time and energy my inner demons where going to take to deal with. Quitting my job probably would have made them worst, so the smartest thing I’ve done was keep my day job.

[puggy]

One thing you could think about is seeing if you can get time off your current job. Ok you won't make as much but at least you won't have burnt your bridges too much and could have the option of taking up those extra times from your work if things don't go quite as well as planned. Of course your boss may not like it or may not aloow you to but it's more likly that they would rather have you 4 days a week instead of 5 than loose you completly and have to get and train a new worker.

You should also plan a lot. I had luck in taking an already developed online game so i get regular amounts of money each month. I also came in straight from Uni and living with my mum so i'm used to not spending much and getting some support from my mum and gran.

Also factor in your plan area's of the game, for example any bug fixing i have to do i'm highly motivated on, it's fustrating work but fun. Whereas adding new buildings to the game is really boring as it's just copy, paste edit stuff and highly demotivating work. Plan on motivating yourself for the bits you don't like!

[Sharpfish]

Thanks for the update Mr Phil...

"I’ve figured out that technology like T2D or GameStudio are actually counter-productive for me because they obscure my overall understanding"

This is something I am worried about in my quest to find an alternative to my burgeoning but extremely well understood (for me) framework. On the one hand it needs ongoing development and polishing to be truly robust.. I can prototype "fairly quickly" by C++ standards using it, but it lacks that extra security of universal robustness and anything even remotely like cross platform ability.

Blitzmax looks like the leader for me at the moment (for FUTURE projects) because if I am going to go down the route of not using my own low level code, I may as well make it as easy as possible.

This is not a certainty yet, I think I will have to wait for the 3D module for it to truly assess that.

As for your job situation, yeah you have lost nothing by stopping in this short term, as you are still unsure about other areas. I suppose you will know "when it is right" because you will get the moment of clarity where it all slots into place.

I have been burned out this past week (And all the E3 news didn't help my brain) but I think it is starting to lift... suddenly my own code looks understandable again.

On a side note. I made a bad decision last week which I think has contributed to this lack of productivity. As I have posted (somewhere) for the last 6 months I have mostly been coding on my laptop, downstairs in the Kitchen, usually late into the night with no distractions. Last week I had a move around and brought the "comfy chair" upstairs to the internet room and have my laptop and desktop side by side.. for me, it is too easy to give in to the temptations of the internet when I get a little "stuck" in my coding.. where before I would sit and think and work it out, I now dive on the internet and complain about it in this forum instead ;)

I had been avoiding posting here for some time and this last week my post count has sky rocketed as I avoided the code problems. I have even caught myself with a mouse in each hand as I control the two computers - one on the laptop supposedly developing.. the other deftly launching firefox and scouting between indiegamer > eurogamer > Beyondunreal > ign and other sites... lol I have become ambidextrous in my malaise.

So. I am going to move it all back downstairs AWAY from the easy access to the net, get the hard chair back up here so when I do go on it I don't want to stop for more than 30 minutes. So hopefully I can stop clogging up the forum and use my time more wisely over the coming month.

all the best with your projects MrPhil!

[MrPhil]

Thanks Sharpfish, best too you as well. Oh and thanks for asking (forgot to say that earlier, got carried away with talking about myself :rolleyes: )

One thing I should mention about the "do it myself" route I'm taking is that I'm a big believer in Test Driven Development or TDD (http://www.agiledata.org/essays/tdd.html) and using automated testing tools like NUnit (http://www.nunit.org/). By using this technique/methodology I feel WAY more confident about my code than Torque or whatever other commercially proven framework. Two reasons, I can see that any changes I make don't break anything that already exists and my experience has shown that the code/design you end up with is very robust and elegant.

[Abscissa]

One thing I should mention about the "do it myself" route I'm taking is that I'm a big believer in Test Driven Development or TDD (http://www.agiledata.org/essays/tdd.html) and using automated testing tools like NUnit (http://www.nunit.org/). By using this technique/methodology I feel WAY more confident about my code than Torque or whatever other commercially proven framework. Two reasons, I can see that any changes I make don't break anything that already exists and my experience has shown that the code/design you end up with is very robust and elegant.
Yea, I agree. I don't follow TDD all that strictly though (It's big enough of a paradigm change, that fully adopting it isn't easy for me), but I've been making sure to build up scores of unittests for everything to ensure everything that works now won't silently break all of a sudden. It feels very tedius, but I can tell it will pay off very well.

I found a really good series of articles that uses a fictitious-anecdotal approach to explaining TDD, but I can't remember where it was at the moment. I'll post a link if I can find it again.

[Abscissa]

I found a really good series of articles that uses a fictitious-anecdotal approach to explaining TDD, but I can't remember where it was at the moment. I'll post a link if I can find it again.
Ahh, I found it. It's a monthly series from Software Development magazine called "The Craftsman". The first one is here, for anyone that's interested: http://www.sdmagazine.com/documents/s=7224/sdm0207h/0207h.htm

Sorry for dragging this thread so far offtopic...

[Chris Evans]

So I’ve made progress, just not in the way I was hoping. The biggest mistake I’ve made was not respecting the time and energy my inner demons where going to take to deal with. Quitting my job probably would have made them worst, so the smartest thing I’ve done was keep my day job.


However sometimes when you quit your day job, it forces you to focus on things because of necessity. When you know your savings account will only last for X amount of months, you usually spend less time experimenting and you find yourself making decisions faster.

I know when I still had a day job, I had tons of prototypes on my computer but nothing close to a real game. Since I had a safety net it was far too easy for me to lose focus or keep trying new game engines in order to find the perfect solution.

It wasn't until I quit my day job that I finally completed a game. It wasn't that those prototypes weren't useful, but I gained SO much more experience and knowledge by actually finishing a game that I would trade in 10-15 prototypes for one completed game. It's a lot easier to learn from mistakes that you've already made instead of trying to anticipate unforeseen mistakes.

Anyway, I'm not trying to second guess your decision, just give you another perspective. :) If you have a good day job there's really no rush. Thanks again for the update.

[Stu]

Anyone thinking of quiting their day job and living off of their savings for awhile may benefit from reading one of my favorite books, Walden by Henry David Thoreau. It is not for everyone and he certainly takes it to an extreme but if one looks carefully they may be surprised at how little they can do with if they make some changes in their life. It is surprising how much this book relates/translates perfectly to present time.

Living and spending conservatively can stretch those savings significantly farther than they may otherwise get you. Of course this seems like an obvious concept but this book really gets a person thinking about the limits to what they really need. This task is all the easier without the wife and children. Just imagine what an indie developer could do in four years with nothing but a laptop, a one room cabin and two acres of beans. ;)

[PoV]

Just imagine what an indie developer could do in four years with nothing but a laptop, a one room cabin and two acres of beans. ;)
I've got 3, a fully furnished studio, and I still enjoy (immitation) Kraft Dinner. :D

My start date is just a few weeks away, and the IGF due date looms. Busily taking advantage of my health plan whilst I still have it. All it took was 5 years doing games for others, not having a car, and some purchasing restraint. Hope the floaters I'm seeing don't kill me. ;)

[Abscissa]

I've got 3, a fully furnished studio, and I still enjoy (immitation) Kraft Dinner. :D

My start date is just a few weeks away, and the IGF due date looms. Busily taking advantage of my health plan whilst I still have it. All it took was 5 years doing games for others, not having a car, and some purchasing restraint. Hope the floaters I'm seeing don't kill me. ;)
No car? How do you manage that? If you were in Manhattan or England or something I could understand, but...

Cars are an incredible money pit, for sure, but I sure wouldn't be able to get by without one.

[PoV]

No car? How do you manage that? If you were in Manhattan or England or something I could understand, but...
Even my friends at work are baffled by that one, and continue to recommend getting one. But yeah, my parents have been a big help when it's come to picking stuff up.

And online stores are great. The FedEx and UPS guys know me by name. ;)

[Jay_Kyburz]

I don't have a car or even a licence.

I think you'll find the taxi I need to catch 3 times a year is still a hell of a lot cheaper than maintaining a car.

[Sharpfish]

Cars do take up money (and time - if you do your own servicing/repairs as I do).. in fact I am supposed to be doing something on mine for the MOT but I have put it off because I am too busy coding...

I know my priorities ;)