To Indie or not to Indie? [Archive] - Indiegamer Developer Discussion Boards

uli.s

05-15-2008, 02:16 PM

My feeling is also that with a demanding full-time job you don't have much time or energy left for proper game development, and of course you ought to have some leisure time, too, and maybe a family/friends.

One idea: can you work reduced hours at your current job (1 hour less every day, or don't come in on Friday's), or go part-time (like 50-50)? Part-time does not only mean working 3 days a week; it can also mean to work 2 months full-time, and then stay home for 1 month, work and off-time taking turns. Whatever suits you and your boss. I just changed into this mode (still have to see how well it it will work for me...:) ).

On the other hand, aims in life keep changing. Maybe it's time for you to put game development in a box and close the lid on it for a while. Don't worry about your worries; listen to them and see what they tell you about what you want (at this moment in life). You should also be realistic, sometimes you just can't have it all.

I am still very early in my indie career, but my feeling is that making a living out of it will be very, very hard, and I do not expect to succeed in it. It's the typical dilemma that the fun part might also go out of the window if you try to hard to make money from it. And if the fun is gone, the quality might drop, and sales won't even start coming in.

Maybe you need some motivational boost. Check out How to be creative (http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/000932.html) at www.gapingvoid.com, this cheers up most people.

Desktop Gaming

05-15-2008, 02:38 PM

I wouldn't want to write games part-time and do a fulltime office job. Who wants to sit at a desk all day, then come home from work and sit at a desk some more?

I just applied for a job working as a bailiff. Bit of variety. I don't want to go anywhere near a PC in a day job.

charlie

05-15-2008, 04:03 PM

for me, i had to do both for a while. keep your day job, you'll need the money to develop your game, you'll develop an ability to not need sleep. make something special and then keep working on it and refining it until you are sure that what you have produced is the best you can achieve,

Cheers
Charlie

Michael Flad

05-16-2008, 01:05 AM

Throw away your current job if there's any chance you can survive from your savings and maybe a small loan for, 1-2 years.

Starting a business requires some risks, it's just the very low startup costs that makes it so usual in the indie software business to not even take the smallest ones. If you keep working fulltime you won't have enough time or energy to create your games and you won't switch your mind and primarily think as an entrepreneur - you'll still be an employee with a regular income and this will hurt you very much in those times where you have to do the less interesting and fun stuff for your games.

You want to create games so I guess you're current job is not the job of your dreams? You don't have much to lose. Worst case is you may have to search for a new fulltime job in 2 years and you may have lost a few thousand Dollars. So what - someone who buys a new car instead of a used one will probably lose more money in 2 years than you'll during that time.

If you really need some additional income I'd suggest to do game related contract work as this will help to increase your experience too.

Sysiphus

05-16-2008, 05:47 AM

sort of agree with michael...am half time employee, and happens a percentage of that...though the entrepreneur mind evolves since the moment you know that is your heading...But yep, the job removes quite a lot of focusing.

Even more, if you have quite a lot of responsability stuff in the job, while it'snice they trust you and motivates, you'r at home worrying so that sh*t doesn't happen in the company, or your brain is full with a company latest big problem you want to solve... In the past been able to disconnect, but if your stuff becomes key for the company, is harder to disconnect. Imo.

Jack Norton

05-16-2008, 07:00 AM

If you're single and live with parents, you have nothing to lose and you should have quit your job already :D
If I hadn't quit my job at that time, when was still 27-28 years old, today I would still be working for someone else as employee, hating every new monday...:eek:

Grey Alien

05-16-2008, 08:27 AM

I concur with Michael. Give up job (so you can 100% focus on games), live off savings and try your best but be prepared to go at it for a year or two before you make any decent money...Worst case, you know you gave it all you've got, and can get another job again.

Nikos Beck

05-16-2008, 09:41 AM

I would never recommend quitting your job unless you had a years worth of living expenses in savings. A credit line should be your backup plan. If you have credit and things don't work out, you have no options. If the savings run out, you at least have something to fall back on.

And, sorry to burst anyone's bubble, two years will not cost "a few thousand dollars". Imagine how much is spent on rent alone.

If you don't have much free time, then pick a small project that you can handle. Working on an MMO RPG with only a couple of hours free per week is not going to work out.

I agree with "Desktop Gaming", I no longer do programming for a living. I do customer service so that when I sit at a desk working on a game it's a hobby.

RyanB

05-16-2008, 12:29 PM

Hi,

Im lately being trouble by many thoughts on my mind. I love gaming and developing, but I don't make a living of it. I actually work at a furniture store, and I do really good, but I work about 50 hours a week, so as you can see I don't have a lot of time to dedicate to gaming. I really love it, but here is my question. A hobby or the real deal? Im confused about this! I make a good amount of money where I work and live well... The thing is that I can't quit...

Start small. Make some flash games and see if you enjoy it.

I started working on computer graphics in my spare time and it turned into a career in games (nine years and counting now).

GeneralGrant

05-16-2008, 12:46 PM

I wouldn’t recommend quitting your job either. I did and it’s very stressful to know that your savings are going to run out soon. Besides, if you don’t like your job it will constantly motivate you to get your game done so you can quit. :)

Grey Alien

05-16-2008, 12:50 PM

Having no "normal" job and no money is also a great motivation to succeed at game programming ;-) But I will at the caveat that if you are not already a pretty experienced programmer then you should learn more by making (and finishing) lots of freeware games first whilst you still have a job. You may still need to reorganise your time to create enough programming time though.

Check this out:

<pimpage> http://greyaliengames.com/blog/how-can-i-overcome-game-development-obstacles/ </pimpage>

Applewood

05-16-2008, 02:01 PM

Throw away your current job if there's any chance you can survive from your savings and maybe a small loan for, 1-2 years.This is the most irresponsible thing I've read for a long time. As an admitted newbie, I'd be amazed if you could sell enough copy to even pay the loan back, and you'll blow all your savings. It's hard to make a living at this even if you're a fast and experienced dev. You might get there one day, but that day won't come fast enough and you need to bridge that gap somehow. Borrowing money or blowing savings is just not the way.

If you need an income, keep your job. That's it. You won't make any money at all from writing Indie games. Ask any people here for their last years gross earnings, especially those just starting out.

Theres more to life than money, but without any money you'll have no life at all.

I would only reccommend considering the indie life to two groups of people:

1) Experienced devs who can crank out top notch stuff at the rate of two games a year or more. There're still no guarantees here, but they'll have a shot. I believe a few guys in this category around here make more than their equivalent salary grade, but I doubt there's many tbh.

2) Students/Hobbiests or anyone else who loves writing games but doesn't need to actually make a living from it. Or at least not right away. They can afford to try it for a bit and see what happens. tbh, I don't class this group as "Indie" either, but that's another debate.

Sorry this isn't what you wanted to here. If you're hell bent on doing this, I'd suggest pulling in the purse strings and getting another job where you work less and can try this out for yourself whilst still surviving. Or maybe try and get a job in commercial dev for a bit - you'll learn stacks about your desired career path and get paid into the bargain.

zoombapup

05-16-2008, 02:09 PM

http://zoombapup.blogspot.com/2006/11/so-you-want-to-be-indie-developer.html

lennard

05-16-2008, 05:58 PM

This is the most irresponsible thing I've read for a long time.

I'm going to agree with Applewood on this one. Lots of indie games don't make back their investment let alone the money required to live on for a couple of years. I left full time game dev. 6 years ago after having been at it for 18 years. With that background I thought this would be a cinch. It's only the last couple of years that Rusty Axe is actually earning enough to pay our very reasonable bills - we went on a budget diet when we did this because I expected that it might not click immediately.

I love being an indie and would not trade this lifestyle for anything. That said, I would strongly suggest having a better plan than just quitting and going until the money runs out or you catch a hit.

Michael Flad

05-16-2008, 07:25 PM

Well he wrote he loves developing so I expected he already knows what's required to create games - starting a business is of course not the same as learning how to make games - so maybe I misinterpreted the question.

I really don't expect anyone without knowing how to create games that he seriously thinks about starting a game development business to make a living from it.

Chris Evans

05-17-2008, 12:10 AM

Applewood probably has the most sound advice.

Though it still may not be the best advice for you. If you're relentless, driven, smart and focused you just might be one of the few people who beat the odds. And there's still no guarantee.

Also, unlike other "failed" businesses, with indie games you can spend 9 - 12 months developing a game and have nearly non-existent revenue to show for it at the end. Some indie games gross only a few hundred dollars. I've had friends with failed restaurants who were still able to gross tens of thousands. And when they decided to close their restaurant they had equipment they could liquidate. When an indie game fails, the revenue can simply be embarrassing compared to other businesses.

Which reminds me, I think almost everyone here who's released a game at one point looked at an existing successful game and said, "I can do that. In fact, I probably can make a better game than that! So it shouldn't be a problem getting similar sales. Heck, I'll even be happy if I just get half of that person's sales!" But then once you release a game you realize what works for one person rarely works the same way for another.

Also if you plan to make a living with your games, there's more involved than just coding. If you're doing casual games you'll need to do extensive market research. You really have to get a feel for what the audience enjoys. Build up lines of communications with portals and etc. If you're selling direct it requires a big commitment with marketing and developing your website & community.

I've always been a proponent of "burn the ship" but that's just the type of person I am. But you really shouldn't quit your job until you're really ready to run a business not just code games full-time. Budget enough money not just for coding tools and computers, but also art/sound contractors and marketing. Setup stop-loss points, so if your savings reach X amount then you go work part-time or do contract work to get by so your business can still survive. Maybe find someone who will partner with you.

If you're a newbie developer then it might be wise to release a few freeware games as others have suggested so you can get some programming/design chops before jumping in head first. Make some flash games and you might be able to make some decent passive income with MochiAds or banners.

Personally I'm like Lennard, I'm happy where I am right now but I wish I had a better plan for how I used my savings and loans. For me, living the dream has been far from cheap. But like with a lot of things, it comes down to how bad really want something and how hard you're willing to fight and sacrifice for it.

hooble

05-17-2008, 05:37 AM

You PC game guys sure seem to have to do a lot of work to make even a few $'s. If you're starting out and want to make something that doesn't need 1) great graphics, 2) any sound, 3) any marketing, but can still make a couple hundrewd $$'s each month, then check out mobile java games!

I'm not like most of the guys here, since I jumped right into game development after getting fed up with my previous job, and have been making money ever since, without needing to spend money on graphics/sound/marketing. I make my living creating J2ME(mobile java) games, and giving them away with in-game advertising. A few of the other guys here do the same thing as well(though I don't know if they do it as their primary source of income).

I use a service provided by http://greystripe.com , where they take a finished game, and put ads in when the user launches/exits the game. The ads are non intrusive, and easy to skip. Not only does greystripe put the advertising stuff into your game for you, but they have a high-traffic game portal, and an extensive network of partner sites that also offer the games for download. Best part, is that they offer this service for free, because it grows their network. Of course they take a cut of the advertising revenue, but you don't actually pay them a dime.

The distribution system doesn't have the traditional top-10 list that plague PC game portals either. Greystripe ranks the games in their portal http://gamejump.com based on how much ad revenue they earn / download (roughly), so that the better games always automatically move up to the top of their respective categories and get downloaded more. This way, if you make a good game(one that people actually play), it's guaranteed to move up and make more money.

The games don't even have to be great in the traditional sense, because people aren't paying for them. When the games are free game play is king, not the level of graphical polish. Anybody that's played my games ('3D Attack Chopper', 'Attack Breaker Pro', 'Water Stealers'), will know what I'm talking about. Most of my games don't even have sound.

A J2ME game takes much less time to develop as well. Most of my games take no more than a month start-to-finish, and most are completed even quicker. I don't even have to work very hard anymore, since my games bring in steady money after only doing this for about a year and a half. It's a good time to get into the game.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here, is that J2ME game development is a real alternative to making indie PC casual games. From listening to others on this board, I'd say that free mobile games tend to make more money as well. If you're discouraged by the 'reality check' of PC games, join the dark side and make ad-supported FREE mobile games. I'm even helping a friend of mine do it part time, to eventually replace his income. He currently makes about $500/month from his free mobile game.

Check my signature if you're interested in trying out some of the free games...

//sorry if I sometimes sound like a recruiter for Greystripe. I don't work for them, honestly :)

Applewood

05-17-2008, 05:59 AM

That's kinda the problem, not the solution.

A coupla hundred dollars a month ? OMG! I need about 8 thousand dollars each and every month to simply maintain my current standard of living (made from developing games), which isn't lavish by any means. I could maybe get by on 6 thousand if I sold my car and pulled in the purse strings, possibly downsized my home. But why would I want to do any of those things, they're all major negatives.

These things you talk about are not alternatives to a real job - they're 'also rans' at best. Definitely worth a look at by the sound of it, but not as a way to support a wife and kids and pay a mortgage.

"Just make 12 of them a year then" is not sustainable before you say it. Especially if everyone started doing it.

defanual

05-17-2008, 06:31 AM

Well, $500 on one (first) mobile game is not bad by any game industry standard in my opinion especially if the level of entry is low and the turnover time is quick, meaning you could (in theory) have 5-10 games earning similar within a year or so. Although I'm not sure if the limitations of java allows as much room for creativity or content which (for me) could make it hard to stick with if it became something that I had to force myself to finish (in the sake of just income potential) :(

I'll certainly be looking into this, although I'm kinda holding out in hope that flash enabled phones will become more standard, that way it should be far more easier for me to transfer flash game content to mobile without too much hassle or getting to grips with java:o (although I'll believe the coding style is meant to be similar, right?)

"Just make 12 of them a year then" is not sustainable before you say it. Especially if everyone started doing it.Maybe, maybe not?

Applewood

05-17-2008, 06:51 AM

Maybe, maybe not?Put it this way, don't gamble your house on it.

My company used to be called Rubicon Mobile. Now it's not. It's not like I'm talking out of my arse here.

hooble

05-17-2008, 07:00 AM

Look, you guys were posting about how making one PC game may very well not even make you a few hundred $$'s in a YEAR, and I just happen to mention that an average free J2ME ad-supported game can bring in several hundred in a month, plus take no more than a month to create.

Unlike PC game sales, the shelf life for these things is extremely long. My first games still get played and still make me money almost 2 years later. So it's not like you make a game, and generate x$'s/month for 1 year, and then it disappears. Also, if you think about it, if you can make 12 games that bring in $500.00/month in the first year, then guess what? Next year you are still making that money from those games. Make another 12, and you double your income.

This is the situation I'm in. Every game I make not only sustains my current income level, but increases it. Also, I have plenty of above average games under my belt, and I am pulling in considerably more than $6K/month. Which in fact does feed my family, and pay the rent.

How many people do you guys know that can say they make good money, after being indie for only a year and a half? Not many I wager. Between now and next year, I will double my income.

Re: Applewood: Don't shoot down the idea so quickly. Did you try out Greystripe's adWarp service? You may be pleasantly surprised.

Applewood

05-17-2008, 07:02 AM

Just to put the record straight, I'm not beamoaning indieness in general, nor do I think it's a bad way to live if you can do it - I'm working hard on getting there myself.

What isn't right, is people living with their folks saying "I can make plenty to live on" and offering this as careers advice, which is something I see a lot of around here.

If you can't do this for the rest of your life, including getting married, buying a car, going on vacation, buying a home, preparing for retirement, paying medical bills etc., then this IS NOT a sustainable career - it's something you can piss around with whilst you're young, which is great if that's what you are.

If you have all of the above and it's supported by an inheritance/rich spouse/lottery win/etc, then saying "do what I do, it's easy" isn't careers advice either.

Indie game authoring does not have to BE a career, but please people, don't offer it up as something that CAN be unless you're doing it yourself and can explain how.

Applewood

05-17-2008, 07:10 AM

How many people do you guys know that can say they make good money, after being indie for only a year and a half? Not many I wager. Actually, none. Which is more my point than yours, but I do take what you're saying on board - it sure sounds an easier way to make little money than with PC dev :)

Re: Applewood: Don't shoot down the idea so quickly. Did you try out Greystripe's adWarp service? You may be pleasantly surprised.It didn't even exist before we jacked it in, but it does indeed sound handy. But I can't help but think as it takes off you'll be lost in a sea of crap the same as most platforms. It's great you got on the bandwagon early and are caning it, but let's have this chat again in a year.

This seems identical to the BREW market in the US which is *massively* more lucrative because there is a shop right on the phone. Only after a while the big boys realised this, the doors closed and it was all over. Hopefully this thing you're on about won't go that way, but if it does you need to milk it now whilst it's still an option.

Again, my mainly negative comments are supposed to be meant in a constructive light. This gravy train will not last, so milk it for all it's worth whilst you can. :)

hooble

05-17-2008, 07:38 AM

Sorry , I didn't mean to sound so defensive :)

I also don't believe MrBear should quit his job either. I am fortunate, in that my wife was working when I decided to quit my job and give this a full-time effort. I can honestly say that if my wife was not working at the time, that I would not even have considered dropping the cube job.

It's interesting that you bring up the on-device portal for BREW being a big factor in their early success. With these games, we don't even have that. It's all off-deck, but usage is growing significantly. Going by any reports I've read to date, mobile in-game advertising seems to be much more effective than mobile text ads, so spending is increasing. This really isn't a new industry, it's simply a new outlet for advertisers. Unless the big marketing companies of the world collectively decide that they suddenly don't like advertising, I can't see this crashing.

Look at the mobile text ads market, it's growing incredibly fast. http://admob.com, which is the largest in that segment of the market serves something like 2 billion text ads a month now. Greystripe is the current market leader in mobile in-game advertising, with a lot of potential for growth, since the full-screen game-ads are seemingly more effective than web-text

Before, I was just trying to offer a potentially bright alternative to the hope-dashers. If I were to actually offer some advice here, I'd say that it's possible to make mobile games part time, and steadily increase your income, until you feel ready to 'go indie'.

That friend of mine with 1 game out, he isn't even a software developer, and makes very little money. After expenses, a $500.00/month boost can make a huge difference in available cash for spending/saving. Not everybody here has/does/ever-will make $80K/year, so the prospect of adding $6K/year to your current income level with a single small game is likely very inviting.

Around where I live, a lot of cube-monkeys with honors degrees in Comp.Sci. only make $50->60K/year(many less). Minimum wage is something like $8.50/hour(may be less still, dunno), which is about $17K/year for full-time work. Make 3 reasonable games and you'd be over that.

Good discussion :)

Jack Norton

05-17-2008, 08:42 AM

Well, after what you posted there probably by 3-4 months there will be such a flood of java/mobile games that your old games will stop selling :D

FYI, is not that PC games sells bad since the beginnings. Just ask people who are in this business since lot of years. Svero said that in 1999-2000 (and it's just 7-8 years ago) he could make good money simply by putting his games on download.com. Now in just 6-7 years the situation changed dramatically.

How can you be sure that in 3-4 years there won't be a flood of java/mobile devs so that your average game will sell $50/month instead $500/month? because that's what many indie in the casual market experienced... :eek:

hooble

05-17-2008, 09:08 AM

Who can guarantee anything that's years into the future?

You have to remember, I'm not even selling these games, they're free. People download/play a lot more games when they are free. There are already nearly 1000 games in the Greystripe catalog, and I still do well. Spending is currently on the rise, and I make more money every day off of my old games, let alone when I release new ones.

I'm not trying to say that everyone on the planet can make 50 mobile games and be rich, I'm just saying that because of the shorted development time, lower development cost, and seemingly steady revenue, it looks like a much lower risk than making indie PC games.

Of course I can't predict the future, but there aren't really any negative indicators at this time.

Sysiphus

05-17-2008, 09:49 AM

yep, you may get your market flooded making som much promotion... ;) Or...what happens sometimes, all ppl go there and close to no one ends up gaining something.

Anyway, my own point of view is...well, nothing is solid, stable. I thought I had a career in the past too many times. But companies break, investors remove the money, and most of all , industry is allways changing. And I mean in all the fields I have moved by....been in like ten companies, of many kinds, web, design, games, software, pc maintenance , etc. I'm used to the change. I think is no bad move to go hitting what is selling well at each moment. And jump to another in the correct moment till it gets dry. I had the feel pc games still have solid market, mostly as the same gamers (bored 40s ppl) have same habits, and use laptops, etc in their works...at least for my actual money needs.

And btw, it all depends. Some of us do not have plans to have children..True, I agree, we should have the situation as if going to have, otherwise, for one will never be able to do if chance arises, and second, well, we should deserve that economical situation ;)

But...8k$ 'a year' is what I have earned in more than one crappy job. True that I have had many diferent ranges of salaries, but...seems it depends a lot where you live, and if you had the firm decision not to move of country...When I saw 75k$ a year was average game artist salary I didn't know if I should laugh or cry... For me and in my area, I just go and learn whatever the job profile is needed, and do it the better for professional ethics... if I was already good at it, or get later, I negociate better situation, but I know it'll get dry sooner or later. I only care bout money I go adding in my bank account...Don't kno better stability than that. Nobody will convince me any more that a company, or freelance, own business etc, has any sort of stability. That is only if you got real good bucks and know how to keep em, or if you work for the gov...About mobile, is quite a dangerous field, I have worked intensively there(a lot as staff, a bit as indy), the carriers know how to protect the business. About this possibility...Well, could be good. Like web gaming, like many others. That's my thinking: My good old grand father had a comercial person mind, and was extremely succesful in acting so: he just had very good nose, and in the way, he made nice money...

I guess anyway, this post can only be understood in certain countries. IE: if I'd live in London, (besides couldn't ever pay life costs there with my earnings as they'r now) , Holland, Canada, etc, probably I'd manage to do like here, but in another scale, and probably easier life: with the better salaries, and quite valued people with multiple profile (well, am strongly specialized in a pair or so) , would take half day job. And would keep, as now, doing my own slow project to try and get some better bucks in the future. Is a fight in every area and choice, anyway.

Edit: indeed, am always digging at many other possibilities that spawn here and there...as all can be interesting. And then analyze then and choose...

MrBear

05-18-2008, 03:14 PM

Thanks all!

This has been really helpful, since it not only helped me with my issue, but I have also learned a lot about the biz. I think this would help anyone who is starting to, or thinking, of becoming an indie.

I would say that every advice here is wise in its own way, just different. Some can apply to me and some to others.

Thanks guys, your great!
MrBear

Nexic

05-18-2008, 09:51 PM

Yes, it's the real deal for a lot of us.

But bare in mind it took me almost 4 years before I started making decent money. I was lucky in that I found a decent part-time job to keep me afloat for that period. As others have said, make sure you have tons of savings, ultra low outgoings and have something small lined up part-time.

brun

05-18-2008, 11:24 PM

I see some people talking about mobile games as a way to make a living. I say that mobile games are pretty much like flash games only that it's a less saturated market, nowadays you got all sorts of ad services that you can integrate with your flash/shockwave game (example mochiads), yes there are some lucky "ones" pulling several Ks a month from just one flash game (tower defense) but that's the exception, the free flash games market is saturated I've seen far too many people try with "simple 1 month games" only to see a few bucks at the end of the month. There are several experiments done on the matter that you can search in the net. The mobile and flash game business is pretty much a hit and miss thing, I think right now some people are able to make a living from free mobile games because it's a fairly new way to monetize mobile games, wait a couple of years and the scene will be pretty much like flash games.

CousinGilgamesh

05-23-2008, 01:35 PM

My feeling is also that with a demanding full-time job you don't have much time or energy left for proper game development,

I'm sorry, that's just not true at all. When I think of the really good indie games that have inspired me in the past, the first two that come to mind are Knytt and Cave Story. Games like that are really creative, on part because they're done during free time by people who's incomes don't rely on appealing to a market. To me, that's the purest form of indie games.

For me, that is the real problem that I bemoan when considering supporting myself with my games. I look at going "full indie" as a closing of options. If I was supporting myself with my games, I would have to worry about whether the idea for a game is marketable instead of whether it freaking kicks ass. I don't want to do market research and find out that marketing a bejewelled clone will make me more money than my, say, epic 3d text-based hack-n-slash rpg the likes of which the world has never seen before.

Indie is the expression of free ideas, guys! Don't tell anyone that they can't do proper game development in their free time.

Twitchfactor

05-23-2008, 10:26 PM

I'm sorry, that's just not true at all. When I think of the really good indie games that have inspired me in the past, the first two that come to mind are Knytt and Cave Story. Games like that are really creative, on part because they're done during free time by people who's incomes don't rely on appealing to a market. To me, that's the purest form of indie games.

For me, that is the real problem that I bemoan when considering supporting myself with my games. I look at going "full indie" as a closing of options. If I was supporting myself with my games, I would have to worry about whether the idea for a game is marketable instead of whether it freaking kicks ass. I don't want to do market research and find out that marketing a bejewelled clone will make me more money than my, say, epic 3d text-based hack-n-slash rpg the likes of which the world has never seen before.

Indie is the expression of free ideas, guys! Don't tell anyone that they can't do proper game development in their free time.

For some of us, "indie" means, "We really like making games for a living, but don't like dealing with the bullshit and baggage that comes with big companies (that being anything bigger than say... 20 people), big teams (that being bigger than say... 10 people), big budgets (anything post $1mm) and some spikey-haired frat boy telling you what to do when they don't know shit-from-shinola (they're called Producers most of the time).

Indie is not always about being some "nobler-than-thou" starving artist, who makes quirky little things that get you some critical praise by a vocal minority, but doesn't earn you enough to even cover the machine it took the build it. Indie is about "independence".

For some people (like me), that means having the freedom (or "independence") to make whatever commercially viable thing I want, without having some jerk-off tell me it has to "be like GTA", when all I want to do is make a great Bionic Commando clone or even (gasp!) a Bejewelled clone with my own spin.

Doing what *you want to do* is the "indie spirit" to me, even if it's; making a living doing "smaller", more gameplay-focused games than the big epic AAA's you did before.

BTW, Knytt & Cave Story are *free*. No bill paying with those magnum opuses. I think a better examples would be Noitu Love or Aquaria or Alien Hominid. THOSE to me are "indie success stories". (oh and Fairway Solitare...from good old Grey)

Grey Alien

05-24-2008, 02:24 AM

(oh and Fairway Solitare...from good old Grey)Thanks dude, but strictly I was a contractor for BFG when making that game and they own the IP. However, it was great fun making it and it's done very well (I think it surprised them!) I wouldn't have got the job if I didn't make my earlier match-3 clones with the "Indie spirit" though, so your point is well made :-)

uli.s

05-25-2008, 09:17 AM

I'm sorry, that's just not true at all. When I think of the really good indie games that have inspired me in the past, the first two that come to mind are Knytt and Cave Story. Games like that are really creative, on part because they're done during free time by people who's incomes don't rely on appealing to a market. To me, that's the purest form of indie games.

For me, that is the real problem that I bemoan when considering supporting myself with my games. I look at going "full indie" as a closing of options. If I was supporting myself with my games, I would have to worry about whether the idea for a game is marketable instead of whether it freaking kicks ass. I don't want to do market research and find out that marketing a bejewelled clone will make me more money than my, say, epic 3d text-based hack-n-slash rpg the likes of which the world has never seen before.

Indie is the expression of free ideas, guys! Don't tell anyone that they can't do proper game development in their free time.

I agree with you that commerical pressures might have their bad effects on games, including indie games. My point was meant differently: I simply don't have the time and energy to put into my game while working full-time in my current job. We all know that a good game requires a lot of effort (I haven't found yet a shortcut to glory with no work at all). Up to now I worked full-time as software developer, long hours, tight deadlines, weeks or months on business trips (due to the type of software I am in), etc. I am just not in the mood of programming at the weekend or evenings, creativity and energy are completey gone, and I would never finish a game this way. I had to be realistic about that. Nothing wrong with my motivation, it's just my reality. Another indie with a different job or life situation might be in an entirely different situation.

Grey Alien

05-25-2008, 09:48 AM

Been there done that. Was making business software in a high pressure environment and the desire to program in the evenings (what little was left of them) was pretty small. So I quit and made games full time, what a good move that was :-) Here's the thing, when you change career to something you really want to do you can put 100% of your focus and drive into it because you love it so much rather than living a life of mediocrity in a dead-end job you don't have any feelings for...

Nikos Beck

05-25-2008, 11:23 AM

I left the game development industry for customer service. It's a different kind of pressure. And now I work on games in my spare time. It's a much nicer as a hobby than a career.

MrBear

05-25-2008, 07:58 PM

What about a "hardcore hobby". I mean a hobby but spending as much time as you can on it... Maybe some day when you're old you can actually retire to game making... Don't know...

lennard

05-25-2008, 08:14 PM

For some of us, "indie" means, "We really like making games for a living, but don't like dealing with the bullshit and baggage that comes with big companies (that being anything bigger than say... 20 people), big teams (that being bigger than say... 10 people), big budgets (anything post $1mm) and some spikey-haired frat boy telling you what to do when they don't know shit-from-shinola (they're called Producers most of the time).

Indie is not always about being some "nobler-than-thou" starving artist, who makes quirky little things that get you some critical praise by a vocal minority, but doesn't earn you enough to even cover the machine it took the build it. Indie is about "independence".

For some people (like me), that means having the freedom (or "independence") to make whatever commercially viable thing I want, without having some jerk-off tell me it has to "be like GTA", when all I want to do is make a great Bionic Commando clone or even (gasp!) a Bejewelled clone with my own spin.

Doing what *you want to do* is the "indie spirit" to me, even if it's; making a living doing "smaller", more gameplay-focused games than the big epic AAA's you did before.

BTW, Knytt & Cave Story are *free*. No bill paying with those magnum opuses. I think a better examples would be Noitu Love or Aquaria or Alien Hominid. THOSE to me are "indie success stories". (oh and Fairway Solitare...from good old Grey)

That's probably the best description of indie. that I have heard.

Mattias Gustavsson

05-25-2008, 11:28 PM

I left the game development industry for customer service. It's a different kind of pressure. And now I work on games in my spare time. It's a much nicer as a hobby than a career.

Agreed. I left the games industry to be a student again, which leaves me lots of time to work on my games.

I love not being in the industry :D

CousinGilgamesh

05-26-2008, 12:07 PM

For some of us, "indie" means, "We really like making games for a living, but don't like dealing with the bullshit and baggage that comes with big companies (that being anything bigger than say... 20 people), big teams (that being bigger than say... 10 people), big budgets (anything post $1mm) and some spikey-haired frat boy telling you what to do when they don't know shit-from-shinola (they're called Producers most of the time).
I agree with you and I'm not trying to exclude anyone from the title of "indie". I'm just saying that free-time indies also enjoy those freedoms, along with the freedom of not having to consider the desire to put food on their tables when making decisions about their games. For me personally, that has allowed me to explore creative directions that I wouldn't have been able to explore otherwise.
Doing what *you want to do* is the "indie spirit" to me, even if it's; making a living doing "smaller", more gameplay-focused games than the big epic AAA's you did before.
I agree.
BTW, Knytt & Cave Story are *free*. No bill paying with those magnum opuses. I think a better examples would be Noitu Love or Aquaria or Alien Hominid. THOSE to me are "indie success stories". (oh and Fairway Solitare...from good old Grey)
I wasn't talking about revenue. I think I said something more like "The indie games that really inspired me." I'm not inspired by someone's game making a lot of money. I'm inspired by someone making something really creative and original.

Look, I think we're both arguing the same point: Don't tell anyone that what they're doing isn't indie, because being indie just means doing what you want to do, with freedom from other people telling you what to do.