I like you people

[cliffski]

I like it here.

I'm fed up with talking to the B*****ds in the mainstream industry. In my experience, too many of them are arrogant idiots, who try and look down on anyone not working on a 'triple a' title.
I got this gem from some jerk on one industry forum:

"Also, good to hear about the casual game market booming. <game name> sold 6 million copies. How much did your last game sell?"

AFAIK, this dick is just some wage slave. it's not HIM selling 6 million copies, just the guys who exploit his labour for a profit. I'd be very very strongly inclined to believe I earn way more than him for less work :D This was part of a long argument where he told me that demos are irrelevant if your game is any good...
I'm sick of their shit to be honest. And I like indies way more.
So here's a raised pint of beer to everyone here.

You people are the best :D.

[Sectarian]

I have to agree with you and have had programming opportunities that the benifit is less to be desired.
I've been adding the finishing touches and testing my Submarine Warfare game before releasing it to the online gamers and offline home pc gamers on disc

[Desktop Gaming]

Cliffski has been at the Toilet Duck again. :D

But srsly, I used to work for.... let's just say, a so-called AAA developer. A lot of people who worked there - mostly the people who make the 'big decisions' and only exist on the upper floors of the building and rarely making a visit downstairs to where the graft happens, don't know their arse from their elbow when it comes to making games.

Oddly enough, they've always got plenty to say about it though.

These people once got a team of QA people testing a Portuguese racing game. None of the QA people even spoke Portuguese. All the bugs we found, were ignored. Reason, we were told, because some investors were coming in and they just wanted the game signed off so it could go on the 'finished' list.

Also worked in another, smaller company for over a year in technical support - I once got bollocked because I'd spent "too much time" testing one game. It'd had all of 20 minutes.

I could go on all day about shabby companies and the incompetent clowns they employ.

[zoombapup]

Hmmm, interesting thread Cliffy. I must admit I got a bit frustrated when I first left "the industry" because it felt like I wasnt part of "the industry" anymore, until I realised that "the industry" is bloody well whatever WE as game makers say it is.

There IS some snobbery with regards to the "AAA" people in relation to casual games, but I've found that its more the people with less experience who are like that. A lot of the folks I know who have been in retail dev for a long time actually think about doing casual dev and indie dev a lot themselves, even if they dont take the leap into actually doing it.

But I really wouldnt condemn the whole body of "the industry" just because someone ragged on what you do either. Could just be one vocal jerk.

I'm sure there are plenty of jerks in the casual and indie spaces too. Nature of the beast and all.

I couldnt really give a nacker what someone else says these days :)

[Grey Alien]

Thanks, virtual beer raise accepted.

Yeah 6 million copies might sound good, but as you say, if you took the AVERAGE salary of everyone in that AAA firm and compared it with yours, I think it would be clear who the winner is.

[RoadMaster]

This just in!

Cliffski disagrees with someone on the internet! The world is in shock :eek:

[Desktop Gaming]

Yeah 6 million copies might sound good, but as you say, if you took the AVERAGE salary of everyone in that AAA firm and compared it with yours, I think it would be clear who the winner is.When I worked in QA ten years ago, I was only getting paid £7,800 p/a. Even when I worked in motion capture the highest my salary got to was £14,595 p/a.

This just in!

Cliffski disagrees with someone on the internet! The world is in shock :eek:
Then people on the internet should stop being wrong. ;)

[Jack Norton]

Thanks, virtual beer raise accepted.

Yeah 6 million copies might sound good, but as you say, if you took the AVERAGE salary of everyone in that AAA firm and compared it with yours, I think it would be clear who the winner is.

Not just the money, but the freedom. That guy was probably one of the many programmer in a team working on sequel to game XYZ, completely unoriginal. Surely not a political simulator!

p.s. instead of a virtual beer I'll go for a red wine, thanks :)

[PoV]

So here's a raised pint of beer to everyone here.
Sweet! Free beer! *yoink*

Mainstream bitterness FTW! :D

Then people on the internet should stop being wrong.
I hear there's something you can take for that. Cyanide. :p

"Also, good to hear about the casual game market booming. <game name> sold 6 million copies. How much did your last game sell?"
Yeah, and what did your last game sell buddy? Oh what's that? Your 100 person studio is shutting down 'cause they didn't make the 2 million quota required to be profitable? That's a shame. A real shame. :)

Oh don't mind me. I heard there was free booze. I'll go back to hiding now.

[lennard]

It's good to know when you have it good and to celebrate the fact once in awhile.

I really like being an indie. and, back when I wasn't, I spent a lot of my time figuring out how to work on the projects that interested me in my spare time. I knew a lot of people who did the same but, frankly, it isn't easy to go from employed to indie. and I tip my hat to everybody here who has made it and I hope that everybody who hasn't has better success next time they try to.

I'm thankful to the people who can look past the multi-million dollar budgets to buy our products, those people that see that indie's are making unique products for small markets that the EA's of the world can't necc. afford to get into. I'm also thankful that I have this online community for a variety of reasons. So here's to all of us.

All right, enough with the celebrating. I've got to get back to a half dozen things I'm supposed to be doing.

[zoombapup]

group hug! :D

[KNau]

(this could also be titled "Why I'm still here after all these years")

On behalf of indie developers everywhere I raise my glass and salute you recent DeVry grads in your entry level studio positions. Were it not for your bravado on developer forums, we would not be able to continue doing what we do.

You may not know it but many (most) of us began as studio monkeys like yourselves but sadly we failed in the role of “cog in someone else’s machine”. I can’t speak for all indie developers but there are still times when I would like to take the easy road and rejoin you texture artists, shader programmers and level designers at “big studio” - but alas I cannot afford the pay cut.

There are a million individual points of differentiation between what you do and what we do but ultimately it can be summed up in one word: responsibility. We indies own everything about our games, good and bad.

Our games are us.

Your games?

Well, they were never yours to begin with. You didn’t think of them, you didn’t design them; you have no participation in their success. You were a cog in a machine set on realizing a saleable Christmas release that will hit the bargain bin by New Years. You are the modern day equivalent of unskilled labour and soon your job will be rightfully outsourced to India or Eastern Europe because your task in the studio is neither difficult nor remarkable and is designed to be utterly replaceable.

We indies just can’t relate to that.

And so, as a toast to you - on this day I will wake up late, hang out at my favourite wifi hotspot and waste a couple hours noodling on some code. Then my girlfriend and I will grab ice cream and maybe catch an afternoon matinee. Because I can...any time I want. And because I just got one of those little royalty checks that always come at just the right time to do that sort of thing.

You see, if I didn’t know you would be suffering the day in your stupid office working on Mickey Mouse’s Go-Kart Adventures (or whatever tripe you’re hoping to ship by Christmas) then my day wouldn’t be nearly as sweet.

[cliffski]

best post evar :)

[Musenik]

Thanks Cliffski,

And to all the rest here who know that special relationship we have with our products. But I'll bet, like myself, those who did work on teams in the core industry, you had pride in those products too. Even the crappy games I made for 3DO, I look at my accomplishments and feel good about the work I did. If I'd been working on massive hits, I'm sure I'd feel great about the sales numbers.

But that guy in Cliffski's example needs to learn basic politeness.

Indies have the same pride as industry drones. We love our jobs more. We don't need to justify our sales numbers or other 'normal' line-items of success.

[lennard]

I don't need to rub anything in anybodies faces. And those mainstream jobs helped boot strap me to get to here. But anybody trying to make you feel bad about not being able to pixel quality compete with their 60 person team, 20 million dollar opus where most of them worked on one little corner of the beast... really, almost all of them want to be working on their own thing and they just aren't cool enough to say congrats. Whatever.

[ionside]

*sheepishly enters stage left*

Well. I'm still one of those cogs, to pay for my family's living while I work on my first little pride and joy.
I've been working in the industry for 6 years now. I still don't mind coming to work each day, animating characters is a lot more fun then working as a retail assistant for eg.
My pay is pretty good as I'm in a lead position. But I've been over the daily grind for quite a few years now. I've never worked on a commercial game that's done really well. In fact one game I worked on (I left before it finished) failed so miserably that the company closed its doors two weeks after its release (verified managements' fault - had to add that).

I spend time here, over at the GG forums, and a few portals and I am learning so much that I was ignorant about a few years ago. To be honest a few years ago I didn't even know what a casual game was.

Some of my work colleagues are very interested about what's going on in the indie business, and are eager to hear my progress and learn what I've learned . But it's the security of a regular pay check that keeps most working for the guy in the office with a view.

For the past year; I work a 12 hour shift at work, go home cuddle my baby daughter and kiss my wife, have dinner, sit down in front of the computer and do some freelance work. Then work some more on my own project. On weekends I spend a little time doing family stuff, then jump on the computer and work more on my own project. I do this so one day I can be an indie and be proud of what I've accomplished for once, thats my goal.

I like you people a lot.

[dogbert]

But that guy in Cliffski's example needs to learn basic politeness.


Here's the actual thread. (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?p=1320805&highlight=million#post1320805) Politeness goes both ways, and Cliffski is ranting & quoting out of context, and doing himself a disfavour with this thread.

[defanual]

Wow, I can't believe this, the interesting thing for me is that practically all of them have no problem with no demo for pc games, when I first heard about this, I thought to myself this is becoming a bit of a trend in the AAA space. Seems just lazy workmanship to me.

The pc game space triple AAA wise is getting pretty dodgy, can't be bothered to lower the spec so it works on your pc from console, can't be bothered to make sure the security system (or be rid of it altogether) doesn't penalize paying customers and now they can't be bothered to make demos? What's next, the game itself?

I do find it hard to believe these guys represent consumer opinion (they must sense a opportunity to do less work methinks), and I'm sure it probably means those that can still be bothered with their customers will reap the benefits by doing simply things like offering demos, so in that way, unless it's proven otherwise, us indies will benefit ;)

[PoV]

I sorta agree, but hear me out. Don't bite off my head just yet. :D

Based on my own spending habits, and how much I seem to despise games these days, that I'd be more likely to impulse buy something if there was no demo. Did it wish Gish, and did it with pretty much every console game purchase I've made in the past 10 years or so. Though since my GameTunnel days, I've been free of most of my game-impulse-buying-itus.

I do have a condition though. I call it "play a demo, learn everything about a game". There's very little I can't assimilate from a demo, unless it was crafted such that the part I'm looking for costs money. That's PoV's "crafting a perfect demo 101", but a topic all in itself. :)

The thing about retail is for most games, the bulk of all the sales are the early hyped sales. IMO, releasing a demo after hype sales is the way to go, to pick up the slack. But just as you marketed the game, you need to market the demo. Demos are never really marketed, and I think that's where these retail boys fail them and see them as worthless. They're mostly down to word of mouth at that point. Insert a "download the demo today on Xbox Live" at the end of the gears commercial, and I'd be surprised if they didn't see a spike in sales.

[ionside]

I had a quick read through the 'initial' thread. And it reminded me a little of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE3KdcTgrno&feature=related










-

[defanual]

After reading a little further, looks like it's unproven either way and views somewhat mixed further on. In my opinion, you have to be careful in forums and debates sometimes and just turn the other cheek (agree to disagree), be it because no one agrees or your misunderstood. That usually helps avoid the backlash of semi-flamery/insults!

I've experience the exact same thing in the past (and I didn't even swear once:o ), and I got pretty pissed too, but I learned from then that things are easily confused, misunderstood and grow out of context easily, opinions are dangerous and worth nothing sometimes, so when I see the signs, I just turn the other way and say "fair enough" or "forget it" or even "perhaps your right:)", it doesn't mean I've lost, won or I'm wrong or right, it just means I'm reading the situation and diffusing it quickly

@ionside: Forgive me in advance, but I don't get it:confused: , is that meant to be in reference to cliffski (and some others) colourful language in the thread or what?:)

[ionside]

defanual - More to do with people getting under each others skin. But after reading your most recent post, I tend to agree it's more along what you described.

[Reactor]

On a side note Cliffski, I enjoyed discussing piracy with you there on Blues (Fallout demo thread also) with the guy who said that indies don't whine about it. When you rocked up, I laughed heartily ;) Of course, that was until I was accused of being a paranoid publisher by a supposedly fellow indie, simply because I dislike piracy.

That was annoying.

[cliffski]

===================================

[GeneralGrant]

If the game I’m working on sold 6 million copies I would make my annual salary in royalty bonus but I would still trade it all for the chance to do the game of my dreams. Too bad I need that kind of bonus money to make the jump. :)

[KNau]

You must work at a generous studio. The last bonuses I saw passed around were only a couple grand for a multi-million selling game. Certainly, not enough to change your tax bracket.

As much as I loathe the casual space it's also worth pointing out that last November Mystery Case Files: Ravenhurst was the 3rd best selling PC title in the US. And Madame Fate sold over 100,000 copies in it's first 6 weeks of release, an impressive number for any PC release, including so-called "AAA".

[GeneralGrant]

Yeah, it’s a pretty cool studio. Sales royalty is part of the employee retention plan and the percentage was recently doubled. Still, for me it has the opposite effect giving me the financial means to leave sooner. D'oh! :)

[Sysiphus]

This is one of the places were more people is coming from working with a salary in videogame companies. I did for several, and it's highly overrated. In a way, all the crazy stuff needed to make a great casual game, is more complex/risky. And requires...what it requires.

[Hiro_Antagonist]

Here's the actual thread. Politeness goes both ways, and Cliffski is ranting & quoting out of context, and doing himself a disfavour with this thread.
You know, it's funny. I haven't posted here in many months, even though I used to spend an hour or so here every day, often more, for a couple of years. I went to the indie meet-ups, talked to a lot of people off the board, and was a very active member of this community.

For the record, while most people here are super cool and have good heads on their shoulders, I stopped posting here specifically because there are certain outspoken and limited-perspective people in the community who tend to shout so loud about their opinions that they drown out actual discussion and rationality. That's not meant as a personal slam against anyone in particular -- I don't remember in the slightest who the specific people who chased me away. But my point is that as much as I loved this community, this is also an imperfect community with some bad seeds that chased me away from what I considered to be one of my homes. This is not a utopia.

Anyway -- I participated in the thread that Cliffski quotes at the top of this thread. And for what it's worth, in good faith, I feel that quote was out of context, and after some equally inappropriate behavior on Cliffski's part. My interpretation of the post that was quoted was that person tongue-in-cheek being as big a jerk as he perceived Cliffski to be. It's far from the case that Cliffski just walked onto the playground and some bully shouted that at him like he'd have you believe.

Also, anyone who's so busy raging against the machine and making wildly generalized statements like 'wage slave' and 'exploit his labour for a profit' and all the other anti-establishment hyperbole needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. By that logic, anybody who has a day job is a sell-out, despite how invested they are in their work or how many people they reach with their talent. It's inaccurate, disingenuous, and just plain silly. IMO, anyone who truly values fairness and perspective and truth would never talk llike that.

Stuff like this whole episode, both here and on the other forums, gives indies a bad name. I find it disappointing that Cliffski turned this into an "Indies vs The Man" issue when it needed to be nothing of the sort. And I find it pretty sad that Cliffski had to run here after getting into a pissing match that he played a very real and very large role in escallating just to start a thread about how those big mean corporate folk on the other forums picked on him.

[cliffski]

yeah whatever. I was totally evil to mention game demos. read the thread and see who starts getting insulting and arrogant first.
clue: its not me.

Like I fucking give a shit what people I never met think of me.

[RyanB]

Begin the morning by saying to thyself, I shall meet with the busy-body, the ungrateful, arrogant, deceitful, envious, unsocial. All these things happen to them by reason of their ignorance of what is good and evil. But I who have seen the nature of the good that it is beautiful, and of the bad that it is ugly, and the nature of him who does wrong, that it is akin to me, not only of the same blood or seed, but that it participates in the same intelligence and the same portion of the divinity, I can neither be injured by any of them, for no one can fix on me what is ugly, nor can I be angry with my kinsman, nor hate him, For we are made for co-operation, like feet, like hands, like eyelids, like the rows of the upper and lower teeth. To act against one another then is contrary to nature; and it is acting against one another to be vexed and to turn away.

- Marcus Aurelius

[Hiro_Antagonist]

yeah whatever. I was totally evil to mention game demos. read the thread and see who starts getting insulting and arrogant first.
clue: its not me.

Like I fucking give a shit what people I never met think of me.
Actually, I did read the thread. Like I said, I was there, and you know that full well.

And my honest assessment is that you copped a hostile and arrogant attitude first. Obviously you disagree, and maybe you didn't mean your comments that way. But that was my perception, and I'm sure it was the perception of others. Which may explain why the thread turned south in what may seem like a 'you vs. everyone else' way.

And I would hope you do "fucking give a shit" what people think of you. I assume you value your credibility in the various communities you participate in. And right now, I think you are doing serious damage to that credibility.

I strongly encourage you to think about that. You can flame me if you want, but in good faith, I seriously think it would do you good to think about how you're coming across to the vast majority of people who are reading but haven't participated in either of these discussions. Certainly you're not the only person who's made themselves look bad in all this nonsense. But I do honestly think you're still digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole, and there's just no value in it.

Rather than cussing at everyone and feeling like it's you vs the world, just chalk this up as one of those stupid misunderstood forum flame-ups that most people have at least once, and I encourage you to adopt a more rational debating style in the future -- even in the face of people who are being asses to you. Because, in all seriousness, I do think the public perception of you personally can affect sales and opportunities in the future.

Imagine if Derek Smart had consistantly come across as rational, personable, and tolerant, even when he shared viewpoints that went against the grain. I think he's an unfortunate case where, accurate or not, his image really works against him. And I'm betting he'd ultimately have more dollars in his pocket, and more players/respect for his games, if he came across differently over the years.

[Jesse Hopkins]

Here, here! Beer Beer!

Cliffski in the HAYOOOOUUUUUSE! (as the say in the "hood", or at American Frat parties circa 1993)

Rugged individualism at work in Cliff's case. A pat on the back and a raise of the glass.

[cliffski]

Yeah whatever, I really don't care. But one thing I have learned is not to bother trying to discuss anything on the internet with people I don't know.
Thanks for the advice, but I have decided just not to bother with anyone online. Its more trouble than its worth.
Think of me what you like.

[Desktop Gaming]

But one thing I have learned is not to bother trying to discuss anything on the internet with people I don't know.Oi! Some of us are normal! That's a slur against the rest of us! :p

Thanks for the advice, but I have decided just not to bother with anyone online. Its more trouble than its worth.See, that's how the internet gets full of nothing but idiots. All the 'normal' people get fed up of taking crap. I suggest going about your business as normal, paying no heed to horrible little trolls.

[Sysiphus]

I think you are doing serious damage to that credibility.

No...With all my respects, and not trying to fight or anything, but I don't agree in a single bit, sorry. I've been really long time reading cliff's threads. Talked, etc. And even more, he brought a point which is very certain in a big percentage of cases in the industry. I've heard such amount of incredible bad talking about indy developers while being inside those companies that... We can try to think we don't see or hear it, but lol...

[Spore Man]

Imagine if Derek Smart had consistantly come across as rational, personable, and tolerant, even when he shared viewpoints that went against the grain. I think he's an unfortunate case where, accurate or not, his image really works against him. And I'm betting he'd ultimately have more dollars in his pocket, and more players/respect for his games, if he came across differently over the years.
His reputation is the only reason I recognize that name. Otherwise he'd be as obscure as any other developer. ;)

.

[Polycount Productions]

Well.... who cares what anybody says as long as there's beer.

Right?

:p

[ionside]

I keep hearing about beer, but I haven't felt the touch of sweet nectar upon my lips yet. :(

[Teeth]

ugh, quarter-to-three? ditch that shit off your bookmarks cliffski! for serios yo

[Davaris]

Heh... I just had a look at Cliffs no demo thread and can understand where Bethesda is coming from with their no demo policy. No matter what Beth do they are going to get roasted by the Fallout fan base because the hardcore fan base can't be pleased or placated by anyone other than the original makers of Fallout. For Beth no demo means the hardcore Fallout fans will have no ammo to tear F3 down before its hyped release.

Personally if I ran a AAA games company I wouldn't touch that IP with a barge pole, because of its fan base, it would be certain DOOOOOOM! ;)

[princec]

Oi! Some of us are normal! That's a slur against the rest of us! :p

See, that's how the internet gets full of nothing but idiots. All the 'normal' people get fed up of taking crap. I suggest going about your business as normal, paying no heed to horrible little trolls.

What was that proverb about idiots dragging you down to their level and then beating you on experience?

I have to say Cliff's original postings on that referenced thread contained a valid and reasonable message but unfortunately he's thrown the argument into a nest of trolls who don't have the benefit of seeing both sides of the story (like most of the people in here have).

I liked how one chap actually referred to some stats that said that a demo will actually hurt sales. I lost interest reading after page 2 or something but I wonder if anyone put 2+2 together and realised that perhaps that was because the demo was crap; and also that Cliff's entire argument is a customer-centric viewpoint, not a developer-centric one.

Cas :)

[GBGames]

I liked how one chap actually referred to some stats that said that a demo will actually hurt sales. I lost interest reading after page 2 or something but I wonder if anyone put 2+2 together and realised that perhaps that was because the demo was crap; and also that Cliff's entire argument is a customer-centric viewpoint, not a developer-centric one.

Cas :)

That's one thing I noticed in that thread. I think cliffski was originally concerned about why it would be so hard to make a demo, that if it was so hard to do, you're developing your game wrong.

And then people argued that it is a cost proposition. Is it worth it to spend the time and money making a demo in step with the game? Some people argued no, and one actually argued that if demos existed for some games, they wouldn't have sold at all.

I read that post and thought, "Well...doesn't that say more about the game than anything else?"

It seems that a number of developers are justifying the idea that games are developed to be sold to an unsuspecting market, taking advantage of the fact that PC games can't be returned to most stores. A demo would render that business model moot, so if your game depends on that model, of course a demo would hurt more than help.

If anything, I'd be outraged that developers are not only working under that model but are also spending their efforts on a forum trying to convince someone that demos would be bad for their sales.

[defanual]

My thoughts exactly and thus I quote myselfThe pc game space triple AAA wise is getting pretty dodgy, can't be bothered to lower the spec so it works on your pc from console, can't be bothered to make sure the security system (or be rid of it altogether) doesn't penalize paying customers and now they can't be bothered to make demos? What's next, the game itself?Maybe it's the poor royalties, lack of IP ownership and crunch thats seemingly making AAA devs come of with reasons to not do basic customer things that obviously (when done right) still work.

As I said though, if it goes as I say above (perhaps minus the game part), those that do adopt/keep the basic customer activities (like indies), albeit more work, will reap the benefits, assuming that's what customers want. ;)

[Sybixsus]

It seems that a number of developers are justifying the idea that games are developed to be sold to an unsuspecting market, taking advantage of the fact that PC games can't be returned to most stores. A demo would render that business model moot, so if your game depends on that model, of course a demo would hurt more than help.

If anything, I'd be outraged that developers are not only working under that model but are also spending their efforts on a forum trying to convince someone that demos would be bad for their sales.

I think it's easy to oversimplify this argument. Few of us would argue that a game which can only succeed by preventing people playing it until they've bought it is not a game which should expect to make money. But that's not necessarily what people are saying when they say that it's not cost effective and it might reduce sales.

There are games which do such big business among their core audience, and don't appeal outside that core audience that it's hard to imagine they would sell more copies with a demo. Halo 3 and Gears of War fall into this category. They're not bad games. People wouldn't hate the demos. You just can't get any more milk out of this cow.

There are also games which don't suit a playable demo. Games where it's impossible to get a balance between enough and not too much. I've seen indie developers too bemoaning that even the most limited of demos prevents sales because gamers are happy to replay the same level over and over because the core mechanic is still fun. Hell, I've got one, and it appears to have cost me a lot of sales until I managed to find a way to limit the demo better. Complex games or games with a long, in-depth storyline where the first couple of hours don't move very fast and a demo from further on would ruin the storyline. Again, they're not bad games, they're just games which won't appeal or will appeal too much in a limited format.

Then you have games like Fallout 3, mentioned above. It's not that those guys who wanted Troika ( or whoever it would be now ) to make Fallout 3 would buy the game without a demo, but giving them ammunition to destroy the game before it's released could very easily sway people from giving it a go in the first place. So instead of a demo giving people a chance to try it, it could even have the opposite effect.

Even beyond those three less morally objectionable hypotheses, you have to be realistic and accept that these are businesses, with shareholders and employees. It's not just their interest to look after said shareholders and employees it's their duty. We can sit on our high horses (and I frequently do) and say that it's morally indefensible to peddle a bad, or bugged game, and to try to prevent Joe Public from knowing until it's too late, but it's not exactly the milk of human kindness to help your game sell badly and waste money on a demo which won't convert any non-believers when you know full well it's going to put a couple hundred employees on the dole queue, is it?

Now personally I wouldn't want anyone to buy my game and be less than happy with it, but then I'm just me, and I don't have to go and tell 200 people to cancel Christmas because we've got to let them go in early December. So I kind of have it easy in that regard, don't I?

[BarrySlisk]

Cliffski, use less swearing and exclamation points!!!!!!! This will help you communicate better with people.

Some people are very sensitive and if you go against common wisdom, people get angry, even without swearing. I experienced this on a danish game developer board.

I consider you one of the cool people around here. I like your relentless anti-piracy war :) It pisses people off but you clearly have the morale and consistant logic on your side.

About the demos. If they want to make them, they'll make them. It's really their choice. I prefer that they exist though. But thats from a customer standpoint. Games are so similar and boring these days that they may scare me away. But of course a really good game will benefit from a demo.

[RyanB]

Having worked on many demos for magazines and E3-style events, I can safely say they are a huge pain. If you are on a short dev cycle (less than a year), it can eat up a lot of resources.

That being said, I think demos are good for games like racing and action where the gameplay is repetitive. RPGs need a bit of time to get the ball rolling gameplay-wise (2 hours approx.) so a demo might not do that type of game justice. Demos are great for casual games.

[dma]

[...]and if you go against common wisdom,[...]

Wisdom isn't common at all. And that's part of the problem.

[zoombapup]

Dont people just rent console games these days before buying?

I guess thats a good a demo as youre going to get.

Now talk to some AAA devs about the rental market if you want to get some of them steaming :)

I mean, the rental market and the second hand market are both really damaging to the AAA industry. The first because the developer/publisher really only sees a fraction of the revenue, the second because the developer/publisher sees NONE of the revenue and its actually illegal (or against the EULA).

So I guess the question there would be, does a demo dissuade any of THAT to take place? Wouldnt a demo dissuade the rental of a game in favour of trying a demo? which presumably would then convert to a sale. I guess you'd end up with people trying loads of demo's and never buying.

But here's a case in point. I wanted to try out the latest settlers game on PC for ideas for one of my designs. So I got the demo, only its two scenarios and I quite enjoyed playing the game, so now I'm going to buy it. Otherwise, I might have never gotten that far.

Its a complex issue to be sure.

[Grey Alien]

Dont people just rent console games these days before buying?Good point. I used to get PC Format and other demo disk around the times of Doom2 and some of the demos definitely converted into sales. Same with console mags. But I stopped buying mags years ago and found PC game demos too big to bother downloading. I've never rented a game yet as I prefer to own a game and I see renting as a waste of money that could be spent towards the purchase price. Basically I read the reviews and pick a game that sounds up my street and I'm rarely wrong. However, on the casual game front, because the demos are nice and small, I always try them out of course - and the good ones result in sales.

[Spore Man]

Dont people just rent console games these days before buying?Yes and no. Depends on the price.
Blockbuster charges $10 to rent a game for a week. And Blockbuster has run our local mom n pops out of business (I am speaking locally, not nationally or globally). If a game is retailing at $30, renting it is 1 third of the retail price. Too big a chunk just to "try out" the game.

[Gary Preston]

Yes and no. Depends on the price.
Blockbuster charges $10 to rent a game for a week. And Blockbuster has run our local mom n pops out of business (I am speaking locally, not nationally or globally). If a game is retailing at $30, renting it is 1 third of the retail price. Too big a chunk just to "try out" the game.

Over here you can (at least last time I looked) rent a game for £3-5 which compared to a £40-50 retail price is pretty good.

There's always those on-line rental dvd places too, where you get to keep the dvd's for as long as you want and post them back when you're done. For games, that works out at £8 per month to rent 4 different games each month (any 2 at a time) or £16 per month for unlimited games per month (any 3 at a time).

On the whole if you only play games for a month or two then move onto the next, rental is probably a cheaper solution than buying.

Whether anyone would use the on-line rentals to try a game out before they buy I'm not sure, but if they're already using it for movies, then it's feasible they'd occasionally rent the odd game and if it's got a long-term re-playability, go buy it.

[Pluvious]

You know, it's funny. I haven't posted here in many months, even though I used to spend an hour or so here every day, often more, for a couple of years. I went to the indie meet-ups, talked to a lot of people off the board, and was a very active member of this community.

For the record, while most people here are super cool and have good heads on their shoulders, I stopped posting here specifically because there are certain outspoken and limited-perspective people in the community who tend to shout so loud about their opinions that they drown out actual discussion and rationality. That's not meant as a personal slam against anyone in particular -- I don't remember in the slightest who the specific people who chased me away. But my point is that as much as I loved this community, this is also an imperfect community with some bad seeds that chased me away from what I considered to be one of my homes. This is not a utopia.

Anyway -- I participated in the thread that Cliffski quotes at the top of this thread. And for what it's worth, in good faith, I feel that quote was out of context, and after some equally inappropriate behavior on Cliffski's part. My interpretation of the post that was quoted was that person tongue-in-cheek being as big a jerk as he perceived Cliffski to be. It's far from the case that Cliffski just walked onto the playground and some bully shouted that at him like he'd have you believe.

Also, anyone who's so busy raging against the machine and making wildly generalized statements like 'wage slave' and 'exploit his labour for a profit' and all the other anti-establishment hyperbole needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. By that logic, anybody who has a day job is a sell-out, despite how invested they are in their work or how many people they reach with their talent. It's inaccurate, disingenuous, and just plain silly. IMO, anyone who truly values fairness and perspective and truth would never talk llike that.

Stuff like this whole episode, both here and on the other forums, gives indies a bad name. I find it disappointing that Cliffski turned this into an "Indies vs The Man" issue when it needed to be nothing of the sort. And I find it pretty sad that Cliffski had to run here after getting into a pissing match that he played a very real and very large role in escallating just to start a thread about how those big mean corporate folk on the other forums picked on him.

Too bad you don't post here anymore. I was on your beta testing team for LOL and your game concept and experience is unique to these boards. I personally would like to hear about your experiences in development (both in general and specifics). I am curious how things have gone overall and what you are working on now.

Oh, and to me it doesn't matter if Cliffski lost his cool a little. I'm sure he's a little embarrassed but its a mistake to learn from. His knowledge and participation here (and general professionalism) has been invaluable to the community. I can only hope to give back to the community half as much to him some day.

[princec]

I love Cliffy losing his cool, it's what makes the internets fun to read!

Cas :)

[Davaris]

I love Cliffy losing his cool, it's what makes the internets fun to read!

Cas :)

Amen to that! This would be a very dull place without the Cliffster. :D