Tetris Creator Claims FOSS Destroys the Market

[BrutoMemo]

Anyone seen this?

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/26/1859249&from=rss

[lennard]

Yeah, I still can't get the plumber to come out and fix my leaks for free, the pizza place still requires actually money and the time I tried to leave the grocery store without paying - they just weren't into my whole free food make money on the advertising ideas.

[oNyx]

It's not much of a surprise, really. If I were him, I would be equally furious (and irrational) about the whole topic.

I don't really think there is much to discuss tho.

[Bad Sector]

I never liked whatever Alexey Pajitnov does, so what he thinks isn't any better. What he said sounds like whining because others can make better stuff and release them for free. Well it's up to anyone to decide how to license his creations, it's his/her creations anyway.

Although i took this interview with a grain of salt - automatic translators sometimes mess up the words.

@lennard:
wrong topic?

[BrutoMemo]

Yeah, I still can't get the plumber to come out and fix my leaks for free, the pizza place still requires actually money and the time I tried to leave the grocery store without paying - they just weren't into my whole free food make money on the advertising ideas.

One thing is having a position of "everything should be free". Another, completely different, is "nothing should be free or open source" posture.

edit: BadSector, I read spanish, and he clearly meant that open source should not exist. His point of view is not against open source evangelist that believes *everything* should be open source. His point is against *any* open source software.

[Coyote]

That's the joy of capitalism and the free market.

You can bring your own products out at whatever price you want - even free.

You wanna compete? Better figure out something Better Than Free.

My only issue with free software is with the pirates who take it upon themselves to rip off software and claim "it should be free!" If you think so, Bozo, make your own frickin' competing software and release it for free.

[lennard]

My position isn't "nothing should be free" but that what he is saying is correct.

Free software does mess with people's livelihoods and it's not evil to point this fact out once in awhile. Not saying you can't, or you shouldn't or that it's immoral to write and give away software. Or to provide free plumbing services for that matter. It's just that if I give my software away today then me and my family are going to be hooped tomorrow when we don't have money for the stuff we need. I'm not sure why Richard Stallman started his crusade although, as a younger programmer, it held a certain renegade, robin hood-esque appeal - but he has helped create a strange thought process that doesn't lead to a level headed young person taking up programming as a career.

I certainly wouldn't expect doctors to start working for free - why should programmers?

[BrutoMemo]

My only issue with free software is with the pirates who take it upon themselves to rip off software and claim "it should be free!" If you think so, Bozo, make your own frickin' competing software and release it for free.

I agree with you in the "joy of capitalism part", and I agree in the pirates part, but the point mentioned is about Open Source, not rip offs.

My position isn't "nothing should be free" but that what he is saying is correct.

Free software does mess with people's livelihoods and it's not evil to point this fact out once in awhile. Not saying you can't, or you shouldn't or that it's immoral to write and give away software. Or to provide free plumbing services for that matter. It's just that if I give my software away today then me and my family are going to be hooped tomorrow when we don't have money for the stuff we need. I'm not sure why Richard Stallman started his crusade although, as a younger programmer, it held a certain renegade, robin hood-esque appeal - but he has helped create a strange thought process that doesn't lead to a level headed young person taking up programming as a career.

I certainly wouldn't expect doctors to start working for free - why should programmers?


Lennard, let's keep things in perspective. When you state your point, you're talking about small software developers that develops utility software? Or you're talking about big competing stuff like OpenOffice versus Microsoft Office? Nevermind, let's keep this into the gaming realm, that is where we're about, right? From this perspective, do you know or heard of a game developer that is had to shut down his business or had sales loss because of open source engines or free flash games, or freeware games? Notice that I'm not talking about piracy or stuff like that. This is an entirely different matter.

[OremLK]

Free games are probably the main reason my game isn't selling right now, so I can definitely sympathize with his position at the moment.

[Coyote]

I agree with you in the "joy of capitalism part", and I agree in the pirates part, but the point mentioned is about Open Source, not rip offs.

It SHOULD be apples and oranges, I agree. There are just some dorks who take the Open Source rallying cry and pervert it to justify piracy. But they'd probably use any justification they could get their hands on.

From this perspective, do you know or heard of a game developer that is had to shut down his business or had sales loss because of open source engines or free flash games, or freeware games?

Not that I recall. But I'm a huge fan of Blender, and believe its existence has forced the premium 3D modeling companies to reduce their prices AND increase their quality. So while competition is bad for companies, it's definitely good for consumers. I think even those who can't stand / won't use Blender probably owe it a little bit of thanks for helping "raise the bar" for their favorite modeling program.

I think that's where it needs to be. Maya, Max, Lightwave - they all need to be "better than free" and find out how to compete with Blender. And they do. And they compete with each other. In the meantime, Blender allows indies like me to keep my costs way down. Without pirating some premium package that I couldn't afford...

[Bad Sector]

I'm not sure why Richard Stallman started his crusade although, as a younger programmer, it held a certain renegade, robin hood-esque appeal

This (free) book explains it all (http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/). Although personally i don't really agree (notice that i barely use the term "free software").

- but he has helped create a strange thought process that doesn't lead to a level headed young person taking up programming as a career.

This isn't true. A lot of programmers work producing open source software. Just think those working in Apple for Darwin. I know a person being paid to work on FreeBSD fulltime. Stallman himself said he was living by making modifications to GCC and other programs of him for several companies.

Of course this isn't the same as making and selling software, but one can live from programmer in either way.

I certainly wouldn't expect doctors to start working for free - why should programmers?

There are doctors working for free actually. Haven't you heard about volunteers?

[cliffski]

Even the volunteers need to pay the bills at save for a pension at some point. Doing some part time work for free, or giving away older code makes sense. Hey even I did it (http://www.geocities.com/starlinesinc/). But that doesn't mean that it makes sense to work 100% for free, unless you inherited a pile of cash and don't need any.

[defanual]

Nah, I don't think free/open source software makes it harder to sell software or make money. It just means you have to step up the quality of your product or being more creative with how you get paid for your work so to speak, which I suppose in a way could be construed as harder at the same time:confused:

[Sol_HSA]

Considering the amount of free tetris clones out there, I'm not surprised.. if open source didn't exist, he (and/or his company) would have someone to sue.

[Jack Norton]

I could be wrong: but actually I remember seeing a tv documentary about tetris and his creator, and the fact that was living in the former URSS made things quite hard for him... he couldn't copyright his game, and neither get any royalties for it (the "state" got it all leaving him a poor salary).
Only later when he moved to USA he could start seeing some money for his work, but meanwhile he lost ton of money... much more than what he claim to have lost with open source IMHO... :rolleyes:
Anyway don't know what he complains about, probably he is earning insane amount of money right now :D

[BrutoMemo]

There are doctors working for free actually. Haven't you heard about volunteers?

LOL :)

Even the volunteers need to pay the bills at save for a pension at some point. Doing some part time work for free, or giving away older code makes sense. Hey even I did it (http://www.geocities.com/starlinesinc/). But that doesn't mean that it makes sense to work 100% for free, unless you inherited a pile of cash and don't need any.

Cliffski, I guess you missed the point. Again, in that interview, he said he is against *any* form of Open Software, that it shouldn't exist, because it destroys the market. This means open source engines, open source software and every piece of code of source forge.net.
There are volunteers that works part time, and volunteers that works full time, supported by Non Governmental Organizations, but notice, one thing does not 'blocks' another. In any case it is mentioned that a programmer SHOULD work for free like lennard compared. The programmer should, however have the RIGHT TO CHOOSE if he/she wants to share his code with others. This is what liberty and DEMOCRACY :D is about, right? KUDOS to that. :D :D

[BrutoMemo]

Free games are probably the main reason my game isn't selling right now, so I can definitely sympathize with his position at the moment.

Just curious, why do you think the main reason for your game isn't selling right now is because of open software or freeware games?

[GolfHacker]

I think open source is great. Where would I be without SDL, SDL_mixer, Ogg/Vorbis, cURL, OpenAL, etc? I'd be writing that low-level stuff myself, that's what I would be doing. Game programming would be much less fun, and it would take longer to churn out a game. So from that perspective, I think Open Source has helped indies greatly.

[Sybixsus]

That's the joy of capitalism and the free market.

You can bring your own products out at whatever price you want - even free.

You wanna compete? Better figure out something Better Than Free.
This is exactly what I was thinking when I read it. We're always hearing (from business people) about how Capitalism is great for the consumer because it forces businesses to be competitive, and when they get a bit of competition, they're complaining. It's not as though FOSS is getting massive tax breaks or huge government grants to compete on an unfair playing field against businesses. Indeed probably the opposite.

I demand lawyers stop doing pro bono work! $5000 an hour attorneys are starving because of these "do-gooders".

[princec]

Free games are probably the main reason my game isn't selling right now, so I can definitely sympathize with his position at the moment.

You need to make your game loads better than the free games then.

Cas :)

[OremLK]

Just curious, why do you think the main reason for your game isn't selling right now is because of open software or freeware games?

I shouldn't have made a 2D space-themed shooter. There are too many flash and free downloadable ones out there with similar themes and production values to mine. My fault for lack of foresight.

That said, while I believe the glut of space-themed shooters the main reason the game isn't selling, there are plenty of others. All of which are also my fault :) But it's my first game, so I'm going to take it in stride and keep moving.

[princec]

I shouldn't have made a 2D space-themed shooter. There are too many flash and free downloadable ones out there with similar themes and production values to mine. My fault for lack of foresight.

That said, while I believe the glut of space-themed shooters the main reason the game isn't selling, there are plenty of others. All of which are also my fault :) But it's my first game, so I'm going to take it in stride and keep moving.

Core Shooter is actually ripe for a post mortem dissection like in the old days when everyone would take my games and rip 'em a new one... might be interesting, informative and fun in a brutal kind of way if you're up for it?

Cas :)

[OremLK]

Core Shooter is actually ripe for a post mortem dissection like in the old days when everyone would take my games and rip 'em a new one... might be interesting, informative and fun in a brutal kind of way if you're up for it?

Cas :)

I feel I have a pretty good handle on its many flaws, and I could probably write a fairly decent dissection (read: dissertation) myself. That said, there's an empty feedback thread in the other forum, and if you really want to tear it a new one, go for it.

[oNyx]

That's the joy of capitalism and the free market.

You can bring your own products out at whatever price you want - even free.
[...]

There is one important albeit subtle detail: Giving code away for free doesn't necessarily mean that you won't benefit from it.

It drives traffic to your site(s), it advertises your skills, and it also might pave the way for good job offers. Additionally, the things you are doing might be things you would have done anyways. Releasing it under an open source license might just be an additional benefit to you.

[lennard]

Bookmarked - thanks.

I know some folks make a buck that way. I also know that some markets grow because we can make more stuff faster due to open source and free tools. I salute those who give away their time, happily use the tools and have given stuff away myself.

That said, I'm sticking to my guns and saying that programming for a salary has been hurt by open source AND that I'm recommending to my kids to be doctors... or programmers if they just love it but I don't feel the future for programmers is as bright as it was 20 years ago. Too many folks expect things for free, that creating code on top of open source code that gets you 90% of the way there is falling off a log easy and the hours/demands are too high.

I still do it because I want to design games and my cash flow situation doesn't require that I get paid on a regular basis. But I would hate to be a contract programmer these days (I know, bring on the success stories).



This (free) book explains it all (http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/). Although personally i don't really agree (notice that i barely use the term "free software").



This isn't true. A lot of programmers work producing open source software. Just think those working in Apple for Darwin. I know a person being paid to work on FreeBSD fulltime. Stallman himself said he was living by making modifications to GCC and other programs of him for several companies.

Of course this isn't the same as making and selling software, but one can live from programmer in either way.



There are doctors working for free actually. Haven't you heard about volunteers?

[princec]

I feel I have a pretty good handle on its many flaws, and I could probably write a fairly decent dissection (read: dissertation) myself. That said, there's an empty feedback thread in the other forum, and if you really want to tear it a new one, go for it.

Well, I'd be more diplomatic than that :) A good critique is enlightening though. Sometimes we all make the same mistakes and noticing someone else making them helps highlight that to us.

Cas :)

[brun]

I feel I have a pretty good handle on its many flaws, and I could probably write a fairly decent dissection (read: dissertation) myself. That said, there's an empty feedback thread in the other forum, and if you really want to tear it a new one, go for it.

I watched the video of Core Fighter, it's nice but yes there are already a lot of space shooters in the net, most of them are not high quality though. If it's not selling you could always port it to flash or java and put it for free on your site with a nice scoreboard, and with the help of ads you could recoup some of the funds that went into the game and also attract people to your site (mailing list for your next game) . Some people make decent money off online games, so I think you should definitely try that.

[bignobody]

I think open source is great. Where would I be without SDL, SDL_mixer, Ogg/Vorbis, cURL, OpenAL, etc? I'd be writing that low-level stuff myself, that's what I would be doing. Game programming would be much less fun, and it would take longer to churn out a game. So from that perspective, I think Open Source has helped indies greatly.

Absolutely! Don't forget open source tools as well! I can't afford Photoshop (ok, maybe old versions if I could find them), 3D Studio Max/Maya, SoundForge, etc. Thank the FOSS gods for The Gimp, Blender, Audacity and others.

[electronicStar]

The free software and open source projects are not only good but necessary. I'm typing this from firefox right now, like probably many here, and several governments made the choice of open software for their administrations to avoid dependancy from a private corporation.
If you want to reduce this debate to socialism vs capitalism, IMO both things are necessary. Capitalist competition for lucrative reasons is always healthy, on the other hand it's also necessary to have institutional and open initiatives.
Alexey P. should know that, he who has probably been ripped off by both systems! (having created Tetris in USSR and having seen capitalist shark entrepreneurs reap profits from it).
As for the person who said that a 2D space shooter is in competition with free games I think it's totally wrong. First commercial games (even indie ones) should always have better quality than (most) free games (except if you consider games created by maniacal shut-ins like "cave story"), secondly the real competition is with PS3 and XBOX because nowadays, all people who have videogames money have little other options than spending it on consoles.(BTW there are many 2D shooters selling on XBLA right now, so it's more a problem of distribution/marketing and access to media).

[BrutoMemo]

The free software and open source projects are not only good but necessary. I'm typing this from firefox right now, like probably many here, and several governments made the choice of open software for their administrations to avoid dependancy from a private corporation.
If you want to reduce this debate to socialism vs capitalism, IMO both things are necessary. Capitalist competition for lucrative reasons is always healthy, on the other hand it's also necessary to have institutional and open initiatives.
Alexey P. should know that, he who has probably been ripped off by both systems! (having created Tetris in USSR and having seen capitalist shark entrepreneurs reap profits from it).
As for the person who said that a 2D space shooter is in competition with free games I think it's totally wrong. First commercial games (even indie ones) should always have better quality than (most) free games (except if you consider games created by maniacal shut-ins like "cave story"), secondly the real competition is with PS3 and XBOX because nowadays, all people who have videogames money have little other options than spending it on consoles.(BTW there are many 2D shooters selling on XBLA right now, so it's more a problem of distribution/marketing and access to media).

Excellent post, electronicStar.

[moedit]

Speaking of free games and their effect on the game dev community... any thoughts on the shift somewhat AAA free games like Dice/EA's Battlefield Heroes (http://battlefield-heroes.com/)might have on us poor indie kids?

I personally think the target audience is very different from what most of us are targeting, but will still have a lasting impression on the medias and general public perception... Westerners haven't been used to seeing high quality titles like that released for free: the publicity-driven revenue and micropayment models have enjoyed a huge popularity in Asia, but it's a first (as far as I know) for high profile titles in occident.

[mash]

Free games are probably the main reason my game isn't selling right now, so I can definitely sympathize with his position at the moment.

Make better games! :)

[mash]

Speaking of free games and their effect on the game dev community... any thoughts on the shift somewhat AAA free games like Dice/EA's Battlefield Heroes (http://battlefield-heroes.com/)might have on us poor indie kids?

BH is not free! EA will generate revenue from ads. :)

[AlexWeldon]

As far as open source destroying programmers' careers, I see two possibilities:

a) There are enough talented people willing to do quality programming for free that eventually any possible game or app that people might want will be available for free and of the same quality that a commercial developer could do it.

b) There aren't.

In the first case, the world is a better place for everyone, except people who want to make a living at programming. Still, those people should be smart enough to find another vocation... and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Unlimited free food production and distribution would put farmers out of work, but it wouldn't be such a bad thing for the world as a whole (well, except for the resulting overpopulation problems, but that's overcomplicating the analogy).

In the latter case, it's not a problem any more than charities giving free food to homeless people is a problem, or philanthropist lawyers doing pro bono work for clients who can't afford the fees is a problem.

----

More complicated, however, is the issue of game design. Often, the best games either take a stroke of genius to come up with - like Tetris - or a lot of time spent balancing and working out the details - like Settlers of Catan - but once that's done, aren't that hard to code.

If you wanted to release a free equivalent to Photoshop, you'd have to put in as much coding effort as Adobe did to make the original version. However, as any coder knows, whipping up a simple Tetris clone is a project of introductory difficulty level, which most experienced programmers could handle in a matter of hours or days. If the idea is popular, a bunch of free clones pop up in no time, which, to an ideas person, is more like piracy than like open source, because the effort involved in producing the clone is so much less than the effort that went into the original.

In other words, if a good coder slaves over a program for a year, he doesn't have to worry that much about open source undercutting him, because it'll take an equally good philanthropist coder a year to do it. Even if that happens, he'll still make some money in that first year.

Meanwhile, if a good designer spends a year coming up with a simple-but-brilliant idea like Tetris, the clones are going to start rolling out as soon as his program becomes popular, because once the idea is there, the code is easy to replicate.

Same reason songwriters are vastly underpaid relative to the pop stars who sing the songs.

Essentially, songwriters, game designers, etc. are obliged, not by law, but by the nature of what they do, to make their ideas open source. You can't play Tetris without seeing what the idea of Tetris is, right? And there's no good way of stopping you from copying it.

So how do you make sure the ideas people get their fair compensation? Well, that's the big question, isn't it? I have no idea.

[Nikster]

It's all bullshit, it's just another rant like Jeff Minters, I've yet to play a FOSS game which competes (read ripoff) with something you pay for and is better and I'm not talking genres, but actual games, there are billions of tetris clones none of which I've played come close the gameboy version of which I think plays better than the original PC version, which, ironically, was distributed freely for free, so while not open source, tetris was free software.

FOSS gives us 3d engines, scripting languages, graphic libraries and much much more some of which the whiners probably use.

Lennard, you think contract work dried up because of FOSS or because there's more programmers competing for the same work ? think the latter, at least there's more jobs and better pay especially in the gaming sector than there used to be.

There also seems to be an uprising of utter turds of games being released, and I think because of this, the consumer has become more cautious to what they purchase, rather then FOSS being to blame, also, everything electronicstar says as well.