I'm out...

[Stefan Maton]

Although I've never posted much in here, I think that this could be some interesting read for some of you :

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/mod/journal/journal.asp?jn=263459

Best regards,
Stefan Maton
(Metron)

[lakibuk]

Sounds terrible.
Are you trying to make some indie games now?

[EpicBoy]

What's interesting about it? I don't mean to be rude, but just because you're bitter about your experiences it doesn't automatically translate into interesting reading for the rest of us.

[princec]

Just a little negativity, to help keep everyone suitably miserable just before Christmas :)

Cas :)

[20thCenturyBoy]

EpicBoy - he said interesting for some of us, not everyone. So don't get worked up about it.

Metron - it is still possible to do game programming as a hobby in your spare time after work, even with a wife and two kids. I think Dan Macdonald does although he may be full time. I have two kids and I squeeze in a couple of hours a night. Doesn't sound like much but you can get a lot done if you concentrate.
But I realize that may be quite a comedown for an ex-pro. Especially if you are used to working in teams.

Anyway, who knows what the future may bring? It would be a shame to waste the skills gained in all those years of experience, so I wouldn't give it up completely.

20thCB

[EpicBoy]

So don't get worked up about it.
Who's worked up? I'm asking a question...

Doesn't sound like much but you can get a lot done if you concentrate.
At any rate, this is true. It takes focus, but it can be done. When you have limited time to spend you can't diddle around with stuff. You need to have a detailed "to do" list and just knock stuff off of it, one after the other. Otherwise, you're just tinkering and will never get anything accomplished.

[Coyote]

Well, I never had it quite so bad, but similar experiences. I started in '94 at a new start-up development house. It was a GREAT experience at first - one which I remember fondly even though it had it's problems (like the insane work hours for a salary I was too inexperienced to realize was too small).

But after six years I'd had enough. The game development industry was too volatile, and I'd had enough. And while I still loved making games, it was always somebody else's games... not my own. That's what happens when someone else pays your check, I guess.

I had a crazy idea that I could make the games *I* wanted to make in my spare time while working full time doing something different. It's a harder road, more fraught with peril, than I ever imagined. It really is a second JOB, and at times a second full-time job at that. It's tough, it's (so far) not very profitable, and even getting your game seen by more than a hundred people in the extremely overcrowded world of downloadable games is surprisingly difficult. It took me a couple of years to get around to it... maybe that's how long it took for the wounds from working in the mainstream industry to heal.

But for some reason here I am, still doing it. And looking forward to the next game(s). So I guess there ARE some rewards in there for doing it.

[monco]

I tend to agree with EpicBoy. Never understood the need to broadcast one's journal/blog/life history.

[GBGames]

Well some people like to get their thoughts down on paper, and having it publicly available gives you incentive to be honest with yourself.

I actually find some blogs a great help. Others, not so much. But some people find value where others do not, so what's the big deal?

And yes, I found this post to be quite depressing. I was originally going to respond but decided against it, figuring that there were more positive uses of my energy and time...like posting on a similarly negative yet more productive thread like cas'. B-)

[Dan MacDonald]

That's the double edged sword of being indie. I get to spend every day with my wife and kids and only leave to run brief errands or go to meetings. On the other hand i have to spend every day with my wife and kids which can sometimes be distracting when you are trying to get stuff done. That said, it sure beats the alternative, which is working for someone else and being gone all the time.

[GBGames]

I would definitely like to work for myself rather than for someone else.

I both dread and welcome the day when my family distracts me from my work and I hear things like, "Now leave him alone when he's playing with the computer." While it will be frustrating, I also know that at that point, I will be working for myself, and people will know it.

[Stefan Maton]

Thanks for the replies from all of you.

To answer some of your remarks :

@EpicBoy, monco : If you don't like blogs, then don't read them. I like to read what others have written. And I write down what I feel and think because, as GBGames said, it makes me being honest to myself and about what I do.

If the blog sounded just too depressing, it's because in the last couple of days it became clear to me that I have spent 8 years working hard and having nothing. The fact that I quit the game development for a "normal" work didn't help much because I always have (had?) the feeling that game development is what I want to do. But discussions with friends and other developers has shown me that (at least in belgium/germany) the current situation for developers would not allow me to have a) a decend remuneration and b) enough time for my family.

So I have chosen my family, a work that pays and to quit game development (even as an indie) because it depressed me just too much to see others (who don't have a family and who are not tied to fixed obligations) progress in game development.

One of my friends just told me this week that I've just a major burn out. I think that's true. Perhaps I have fun again developing games if I don't have the feeling that I have to return to professional game development by all means. Time will tell.

In the meantime, I invite those who are interested to read the second part of my postings, to head over to the link I posted in my first message. I don't know how many different topics I will write but the last ones will definetly be "positive" as some want it. I'll write about the possibilities developers have to improve their situation...

[svero]

If the blog sounded just too depressing, it's because in the last couple of days it became clear to me that I have spent 8 years working hard and having nothing.

I think your blame isn't well placed. You seem to be saying that your choice to go into game development was a bad one and is responsible for you not having much today. I don't see that this has anything to do with game development.

I mean your story is more or less applicable to other development jobs. Lots of people don't get ahead or miss opportunities. Maybe you made some bad decisions along the way. I've made a few and missed out on some cash (millions in one case), but then so have lots of people.

I know more people who are poor, and don't like their jobs, than I know people who are very successful. And knowing both types personally, the difference between them isnt that one group concentrated on games and another on applications or something else.

Often on these boards I see the sentiment put forward that games are not a great way to make money, and that one should open some other kind of business or do other types of development etc... Maybe games is a little harder, and maybe there are more talented people fighting to make a living at it because it's to some extent fun. But then again maybe not.

Who says you'd have done much better in another field? I worked a number of jobs not related to games before I ended up doing what I do today and most of those petered out to nothing and wouldn't have provided me much more than you have. That includes work in the fields of commercial robotics, medicine, and the stock market. Should I say I'm out of those fields because I personlly didn't happen to make much money there?

I would argue that to some extent its actually harder to make money doing something you're less interested in than it is to make money following your passion. Maybe you chose the wrong field. But reading your story I notice that a lot of it was spent as an employee. And thats a place where few people get ahead in any industry. In life you have to take risks. And often those risks have to be taken when you're younger and still in a position to take them. But they are risks. And taking a risk by definition is no guarantee of success. But if you never play your cards you never win. Working as an employee is, with few exceptions, a good way to stay an employee living from check to check forever. Some people may get lucky with stock options and so on, but for every 1 stock option millionaire you run into there are 10's of thousands of workers who weren't as lucky.

So why blame game development?

[monco]

@EpicBoy, monco : If you don't like blogs, then don't read them. I like to read what others have written. And I write down what I feel and think because, as GBGames said, it makes me being honest to myself and about what I do.

I don't read blogs. I read what you advertised as "possibly interesting" and then discovered it was a blog. By the way, you do realize that everything you write online will be there for a long, long time and available for anyone and everyone to see, including possible future employers?

[Stefan Maton]

@monco : Sorry, that I did not mention that it actually was a blog. I'll do it next time I post such a link.

I *do* realize that it is written down and will be available for a long time. But that's my opinion at this time and I stand it. If a possible future employer reads it and it's not ok for him, he either can ask me what I think about it at that moment or can just drop me. People evolve and I think that I evolve. Who knows... perhaps in a year or two my opinion has changed and I have a better feeling about all this. If employers can't understand that one has to evolve, I am sorry for them.


@svero : Thanks, that are some points for me to think about... I think I did not express myself in a right way when I said that I do not have anything. I'm not poor or so.

I have a mortgage for a house to pay, 2 children, a wife and a job that pays. I should have said that I have the feeling that I have achieved nothing that really remains although I have worked for 8 years.

Imagine that you're sitting in front of your computer and with some clicks with your mouse you literally can erase 8 years of work and it would bother no one.

Yes, the situation is not only applicable to game development. But you have to apply it to the job you're working in or you've worked in.

Perhaps the point about the evolution of a person (as I stated it in my reply to monco) is what happens right now and I am not quite pleased with it. Perhaps I wouldn't have been disappointed about what I've done until now if I had the possibility to get a job in game development. But, in my current situation, this is a balancing act between what you would like to do and what your family is willed to accept.

[princec]

I got the impression that your blog was about happiness and life fullfilment, nothing to do with money. It seems some people have the wrong end of your stick...

Cas :)

[svero]

Imagine that you're sitting in front of your computer and with some clicks with your mouse you literally can erase 8 years of work and it would bother no one.

Well if you want to make a mark then make decisions that will lead to you making a mark. Your situation maybe limits you in some ways, but not in all ways. A lot of people live their whole lives without making a mark. Most people. Is it really about having some legacy or generating something of sustained value or is it about being happy every day? You've got to decide what's important. You've got a family/kids ... for some people that's enough. Sounds like you're searching for something though.

[princec]

He's searching for a new purpose in life... like, making some applets for the new Puppy Games website for free, I think. Yes, I'm sure that's what he wants to do really.

Cas :)

[BigZaphod]

I *do* realize that it is written down and will be available for a long time. But that's my opinion at this time and I stand it. If a possible future employer reads it and it's not ok for him, he either can ask me what I think about it at that moment or can just drop me. People evolve and I think that I evolve. Who knows... perhaps in a year or two my opinion has changed and I have a better feeling about all this. If employers can't understand that one has to evolve, I am sorry for them.

I was fired for a personal blog I had. I didn't know they knew about it. I never told them. Somehow they found it. I never even used their name or my name on the blog, either. *shrugs* In any case, I made some comments that they decided were threatening. I said something like, "ever have one of those days where you feel like going on a shooting spree?" It wasn't that exactly that (too lazy to look just now), but the powers decided that this was a clear and present danger to their personal safety and used it to push me out the door. One minute I'm at my desk, not really enjoying what I'm doing but getting it done, and the next I'm in the president's (!) office being told I'm a risk to everyone's well-being and then escorted out of the building. It was over in less than 10 minutes.

The thing is, the comment was maybe a month old by that point. So you'd think that if I was some psycho planning something, I'd have acted before then. :)

What made the whole thing ever more lame was that I'd been there something like a year and a half. Our team was small and we all knew each other pretty well. It was well known that I was sarcastic quite frequently. :) But of course none of this mattered. They instead insisted that "the corporation" needed to do this for liability reasons because, ya know, if I ever went there to shoot them and they knew about this telling blog entry of mine, then they'd get in trouble. *gasp* It is sad to think they honestly thought that was a possibility in the first place.

It took me around 7 months to find another job. Now I am doing some contracting working. In January, that is over due to lack of budget for next year. At which point I am once again unemployed. I tried rather hard to get hired in those 7 months at other software companies around here, but oddly, they would never call me back or write back or anything. I suspect I might be on some unwritten local black list amongst the only software companies around here (pretty small market and there seems to be ties to everyone else from all the others). No clue what I'm going to do now. I'd love to do indie game development and have that work, but I don't think I have enough time to pull anything off.

Ok, rant over. ;)

[merovingian]

@monco : Sorry, that I did not mention that it actually was a blog. I'll do it next time I post such a link.

I *do* realize that it is written down and will be available for a long time. But that's my opinion at this time and I stand it. If a possible future employer reads it and it's not ok for him, he either can ask me what I think about it at that moment or can just drop me. People evolve and I think that I evolve. Who knows... perhaps in a year or two my opinion has changed and I have a better feeling about all this. If employers can't understand that one has to evolve, I am sorry for them.


@svero : Thanks, that are some points for me to think about... I think I did not express myself in a right way when I said that I do not have anything. I'm not poor or so.

I have a mortgage for a house to pay, 2 children, a wife and a job that pays. I should have said that I have the feeling that I have achieved nothing that really remains although I have worked for 8 years.

Imagine that you're sitting in front of your computer and with some clicks with your mouse you literally can erase 8 years of work and it would bother no one.

Yes, the situation is not only applicable to game development. But you have to apply it to the job you're working in or you've worked in.

Perhaps the point about the evolution of a person (as I stated it in my reply to monco) is what happens right now and I am not quite pleased with it. Perhaps I wouldn't have been disappointed about what I've done until now if I had the possibility to get a job in game development. But, in my current situation, this is a balancing act between what you would like to do and what your family is willed to accept.


ObBiasStatement: Most people who blog their life crises on a regular basis need to get out more often.

That having been said, you've achieved a life with a hopefully great wife, 2 kids, and a mortgage and all while being gainfully employed. That's more than most people in our age group seem capable of these days (especially drama bloggers). Did I say I hate drama bloggers? Yep, just did. Whiny sacks of well you-know-what that ought to put more time into their life and friends than into expressing their personal angst on a stage in the hopes that a bunch of online stangers will post a comment saying how they feel their pain. WTF?

OMG I just wasted five minutes on this. It's contagious, AAAAAUGGGGHHH!!!

[BigZaphod]

Whiny sacks of well you-know-what that ought to put more time into their life and friends than into expressing their personal angst on a stage in the hopes that a bunch of online stangers will post a comment saying how they feel their pain.

Not all blogs or bloggers are like that. Mine surely had a lot of angst over time (girls are so confusing...), but no commenting section or anything. It mostly kept friends up to date on the goings on in my life. It wasn't meant for strangers. Still, it got me fired for expressing what many people express daily in offices everywhere.

Of course, ever since I met my fiancee, I haven't blogged much at all (my blog is now private with a password and yes she has read just about everything there and still loves me :D). Odd how that works. :)

[monco]

BigZ: If I were you, I'd go back and grease every last one of them just for thinking that about you...

[BigZaphod]

BigZ: If I were you, I'd go back and grease every last one of them just for thinking that about you...

Hee hee... That's a great idea! Er.. wait.. then that would prove them right. Dammit! I can't win. :p

[merovingian]

Not all blogs or bloggers are like that. Mine surely had a lot of angst over time (girls are so confusing...), but no commenting section or anything. It mostly kept friends up to date on the goings on in my life. It wasn't meant for strangers. Still, it got me fired for expressing what many people express daily in offices everywhere.

Of course, ever since I met my fiancee, I haven't blogged much at all (my blog is now private with a password and yes she has read just about everything there and still loves me :D). Odd how that works. :)

Who can figure out chicks? Nothing wrong with writing about that one...

I'm talking about all those sorts out there writing their daily "woe is me I'm so misunderstood" rants. That's a really important phase for say, a 14 year-old, but it gets old by 20 or so, and it's just pathetic and sad IMO to see so many 30somethings still doing it. In constrast, I love the blogs of Steve Pavlina, Paul Allen, and their ilk. Lots of great stuff there!

BTW if you were blogging from work, or you discussed your employer, I can't say I feel sorry for you. Otherwise, I'd say you ought to grease 'em too.

[BigZaphod]

BTW if you were blogging from work, or you discussed your employer, I can't say I feel sorry for you. Otherwise, I'd say you ought to grease 'em too.

I admit to doing it from work a few times. :o That might be how they found it (proxy logs maybe). I remember asking and they refused to say. I was getting bad vibes there well before all this, though. My best friend got me hired on there and about a month or two before they fired me they let him go with no reason given. *shurgs* The company was/is in trouble, I think, anyway. In the 4-5 months prior to my letting go, one of their most senior and perhaps most talented developers left. A product engineer who had also been a co-founder was ousted. Many people in sales were leaving. Something was up. Of course the instant they fired my friend (as in, the next week), they hired one of their buddy's from one of the other local software shops to replace my friend. Considering the closest thing to a reason they gave my friend was that they no longer needed his services, it seems odd to suddenly then hire another developer who will have to spend a month learning the code base. My friend was a developer and the new guy was a developer who likely cost far more than my friend did. That was over a year ago. They haven't released any new products since then as far as I can tell from their website. This was over a year ago now.

As I said before, I never mentioned the employer by name or location or anything like that. You'd have to had known me in order to know where I was. I didn't use anyone's personal names, either, unless they were close friends and already knew about my blog.

People complain about their jobs and situations to friends all the time. Should that be a firing offense? Sometimes I was echoing conversations that actually happened while at work with other employees. But no, the blog wasn't setup to complain about work or anything like that. The blog pre-dated even working at that company by a couple years. Usually I rambled on about girls, school(when I was still in it), tech ideas, or meaning of life stuff. :)

Ok, I'm done now. In short: If you work for someone else, be careful about what you write online. While I think it is sad that something like a blog can get you fired, there isn't much you can do about it, I suspect. Personally, I think that firing someone for a blog is akin to firing someone for having the "wrong" political sign planted in their front yard. But that's just me.

[monco]

I'm talking about all those sorts out there writing their daily "woe is me I'm so misunderstood" rants. That's a really important phase for say, a 14 year-old, but it gets old by 20 or so, and it's just pathetic and sad IMO to see so many 30somethings still doing it.

It's not only the melodramatic stuff, it's the mundane everyday diary entries that kill me ("did a little work...need to buy that book on amazon...Seinfeld was really funny today"). I though diaries were supposed to be private? WTF?

[Sunshine]

God, how could someone with all those skills and great looking games on his resume still whine so much.?

I hope I'm not so bitter when I get that successfull :p

[Curiosoft]

In the meantime, I invite those who are interested to read the second part of my postings, to head over to the link I posted in my first message. I don't know how many different topics I will write but the last ones will definetly be "positive" as some want it. I'll write about the possibilities developers have to improve their situation...

Hey Stefan,

It sounds like you have a deep passion for game development. Make sure you see it through. Sure, you've had challenges. My recommendation would be to spend 1-2 hours reading books that will help you develop the other skills in life necessary to succeed.

A lot of reason why Indies don't make a lot of money is because they are great at the game development stuff, but they lack business skills/motivational skills/focus/positive attitude/etc.

Thomas Edison failed 10,000 times before developing the light bulb. If I only have to fail 1000 times to reach my goals, then I consider myself lucky ;)

Take care,
Curiosoft