Sleeping

[ggambett]

Is there an agreed definition of what is a "good" amount of sleep, from a health point of view?

I recently took 2 weeks off my day job. In those 2 weeks I slept no less than 9 or 10 hours, and some days I slept 12 hours straight.

In contrast, now that I'm back to "real life", I'm sleeping 7-8 and waking up each morning is a torture.

Is this one of the cases where I should "trust my body"? If I "want" or "need" to sleep 12 hours, is there any kind of health problem?

[Chris00]

This looks like a pretty good article from WebMD (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/62/71838.htm)

[milieu]

Everybody is different, and needs different amounts of sleep. If you're tired after 7-8, then start trying to get more sleep.

Most people are a bit sleep-starved in modern society. We stay up late, we watch tv, and then have to leap out of bed to make it to work by 8. Our bodies are designed to crash when it's dark, and get up when it's light, but this isn't always possible.

I would say your schedule is causing you to slow build up a sleep debt. Once you are released from that schedule by going on vacation, your body does its best to catch up, by sleeping 9-12 hours.

In studies, they have put volunteers into rooms that have no windows or clocks, and thus no time clues. The volunteers can live on whatever schedule they want. Inevitably, the volunteers are so tired out that most sleep for 10-12 hours for several days, before they return to a more normal pattern of sleeping 8-9 hours.

[kerchen]

You just need to listen to your body. If you have to drag yourself out of bed after 7 or 8 hours of sleep, you probably need more. Normally, I usually wake up refreshed and ready to go after 8.5 hours of sleep. Anything less than 7 and I'm pretty groggy and drag around most of the day.

[Coyote]

The 8-hour sleep schedule didn't exist until the industrial revolution, when there was a need to divide the day into equal shifts. Prior to that (and remaining still in an agrarian culture), the amount of sleep people received (and "needed") varied by the season: they slept a lot (12-ish hours) during the winter (when the nights were long), and less (around 6-ish hours) during the summer.

Listen to your body, as has been said - but you can also train it. I used to sleep 8-9 hours per night. I had problems with bouts of insomnia and restlessness. I was a light sleeper, and was frequently frustrated by waking up in the middle of the night and not being able to get back to sleep (and then being dog tired the rest of the day).

It's possible to change your habits & sleep schedule, though it takes 3-4 weeks (which can be HARD). I now sleep about 6 hours per night - and I fall RIGHT asleep when my head hits the pillow and sleep HARD. But I feel awake and refreshed in the morning. There is one downside... I used to be able to compress my sleep schedule more easily than I can now. An hour's worth of missed sleep hits me a little harder than it used to, and when my regularly-scheduled bedtime hits, I find myself dropping pretty dang quickly. But overall, I find it's been a good trade-off.

[ggambett]

The 8-hour sleep schedule didn't exist until the industrial revolution, when there was a need to divide the day into equal shifts.
That's extremely interesting... it's amazing to find out how many things about life we now regard as "natural" aren't more than a couple hundred years old, and motivated by economic factors...

[Curiosoft]

Hey,

Are you exercising enough? I noticed that I needed like 12 hours of sleep when I stopped exercising for long periods of time.

When I work out every day, I seem to need less sleep.

Later,
Curiosoft

[HairyTroll]

I can scrape by with 5-6 hours a night, although staying awake in 2 hour meetings is tough. Having 3-4 hours sleep each day for three days is cutting it a bit fine. On the fourth day I find myself crashing at around 20:30 and waking at 08:00.

I find that I feel the most refreshed if I can get to sleep before midnight and wake up early as opposed to hitting the hay after midnight and waking up later.

I start seeing things if I go for 60 hours with no sleep. (Damn you, Commodore 64)

[MattInglot]

I seem to wake up naturally (no alarm clock) after about 9 or 10 hours of sleep on average. If I get woken up by an alarm clock it doesn't seem to matter how little or much I've slept, I'll still crash halfway through the working day.

[Valen]

There was a thread about sleep on the old forums, which had a link to this very thorough and interesting site dedicated to sleep: http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm

[robleong]

Yep, agree that you should 'listen' to your body. Give yourself enough time to sleep, or at least enough time to catch up on any sleep that you may have missed. Sleep deprivation can cause problems so don't deprive yourself of sleep for too long.

[Air]

Here's some interesting information: I've lived without an alarm clock in my room for about 6 years now. I've spent the last two years without a clock in my room, period. I'm on a schedule now that requires I wake up early 4 times a week, at different times: at 5:30 - 6:00am on weekends and at 8:00am two days of every week.

So far after almost four months of this schedule, I have yet to be late for anything. I wake up as needed and basically know what time it is when I do. I have no anxiety that I might oversleep. I just don't forsee it happening unless I'm physically or mentally ill in some form, and thus likely incapable of doing the tasks required of me on those days anyways. I have that much confidence in my internal clock.

I figure it would take a good year or so of sleeping without an alarm to get comfortable with doing things the way I do them. Plus your schedule would have to be something "natural" -- ie not 2nd or 3rd shift. At least in my case I would have a very difficult time adjusting my sleep schedule to something like that without the assistance of an alarm clock, as my internal clock prefers playing witness to daylight shifts. Speaking of which, I think living in a city where the sky remains rather bright all night would make it more difficult too. But I haven't experience with that so I can't say.

It sure is nice not having to fret over the alarm waking you up though. Even though I'm getting up at the same time (and sometimes earlier) than I would with an alarm, I feel like I'm waking myself up instead of being woken up by an annoying device. I feel fresher... more awake.. more 'pep.' I guess there's a sense of gratification and achievement in waking yourself up, and perhaps a bit less stress too.

- Air

[Gilzu]

I recently took 2 weeks off my day job. In those 2 weeks I slept no less than 9 or 10 hours, and some days I slept 12 hours straight.

In contrast, now that I'm back to "real life", I'm sleeping 7-8 and waking up each morning is a torture.

I would have concentrate more on how well you sleep and in not how much time. Waking up in the middle of the night? Sleeping in a closed room with no air? bed not comfy enough?

Also, it might be a nutritional problem since you already know 7-8 hours are enough for you. Lack of Iron or B12 may cause sleepiness (and needing more hours of sleep), being tired and headaches - which all come especially when waking up. Its known that what you eat can affect you sleeping habbits (and quality). You can also take vitamin supplements and check after a week if youre feeling better and having a better sleep, cant hurt.

[robleong]

Also, it might be a nutritional problem since you already know 7-8 hours are enough for you. Lack of Iron or B12 may cause sleepiness

Actually, sleep disturbance can be the symptom of many other illnesses (e.g. endocrine and psychiatric problems), but it is usually so non-specific as to be useless for diagnosis. Look for other symptoms. However, it is MUCH MORE commonly due to a simple lack of sleep and the body trying to catch up.

[Sunshine]

I think that it is not really the hours of sleep, per say, but rather the quality of sleep.

I have found that going to sleep at the same time each night and waking up at the same time, will eventually make your body get into that cycle and you will get more of the REM sleep that you need.

Of course the past few years I have not been doing that, I usually stay up so late that it is early again :eek: and frequently sleep 12-14 hours.

If you want a quick cheat, try a 15 minute power nap, you'd be amazed at how refreshed you will be. (if you can get back up ;) )

[robleong]

@Sunshine - I agree. In fact, in my case, I like an evening nap, especially when I'm tired at that time - when I wake up some hours later, I feel all refreshed and can program much more productively. So, I've basically broken up my day into two wake-sleep cycles instead of the usual one!

[j3sus]

im at about 60 hours no sleep... i was wonderin if anyone else started seein shit? or should i go to sleep before i go insanse

[Coyote]

That's a popular myth, but there's a lack of any evidence supporting that lack of sleep causes hallucinations. They had one study in which the subject (also a researcher studying the effects of sleep deprivation) remained awake for several days (I want to say 2 weeks, but I can't recall). No hallucinations were experienced, and while he did suffer a little in his speech, he proved he was not seriously impaired by beating a co-worker at a game of pinball before finally toddling off for a nice LOOOONG nap.

It's just one of those things we have to admit that we still don't know that much about. Science and medicine have a lot of theories as to the whys and hows of it. Everybody has their own rules of thumb. There's a ton of anecdotes and cautionary tales. But in the end, there's a lot we don't know, EVERYBODY is different and has different needs, and the human body is really incredible at being able to adapt over time to different schedules.

[EpicBoy]

im at about 60 hours no sleep
.... Why? What could possibly be worth not sleeping for 60 hours for?

[Gilzu]

That's a popular myth, but there's a lack of any evidence supporting that lack of sleep causes hallucinations. They had one study in which the subject (also a researcher studying the effects of sleep deprivation) remained awake for several days (I want to say 2 weeks, but I can't recall). No hallucinations were experienced, and while he did suffer a little in his speech, he proved he was not seriously impaired by beating a co-worker at a game of pinball before finally toddling off for a nice LOOOONG nap.

I've just seen a documentry about (lack of) sleep in the local science channel. They talked about some radio guy who wanted to be on aire for a whole week, up until the third day he was a little tired, but fine. but at the fourth day he had tons of hallucinations and at the fifth day he though he saw his dead gandmother (or something) across the road, so he ran across it and a car hit him. dead.

Other guy (dead too, btw) couldnt sleep for 6 monthes due to some brain disfunction (he had a stroke). He was a uni proffesor that never seem to have any trouble sleeping after that stroke. Actually, he had trouble sleeping. He died from another stroke 6 montes after the first. Sad tale.

[Coyote]

Smacks a little of urban legends if you ask me. But if it's on TV, it must be true... ;)

For anyone REALLY worried about long-term sleep deprivation, here's a good summary:
http://menshealth.about.com/od/lifestyle/a/sleep_depriv.htm?once=true&

I think the concern with "hallucinations" is actually a problem of people actually falling into REM sleep very quickly without realizing it. I've never gone that long without sleep, but knowing how I get after just a couple of days of very little sleep, I can see how easy it would be - I get to the point where I feel like I'm falling asleep during blinks.

[EpicBoy]

I definitely get edgy and a little paranoid when I haven't slept. I see movement in the corners of my eyes that isn't there - stuff like that. Never full on hallucinations, but it's not a state I'd want to be programming in if I can avoid it.

[C.S.Brewer]

I see movement in the corners of my eyes that isn't there

that happens to me all the time, I don't talk to them, they don't talk to me, all is juuuuuuust fine :)

seriously though, I get the movement in the corner of my eyes thing too, when I haven't eaten in a long time, when I've drunken too much coffee with no food and when I stay up all night. (but the coffee drinking tends to go hand in hand with staying up all night)

Quite a few of my most productive coding/art sessions happen on long sleepless nights, when I really get in the groove on some project and realize that all of a sudden that the sun is comming up outside.

[Coyote]

I remember a couple of late nights playing EverQuest where I zonked out during a zone load. I never remembered falling asleep, but I remember jerking myself awake (probably because my head was drooping) and wondering how long I'd been standing at the edge of the zone.

I don't get much productive coding done when I'm in that state. Though if I exercise and have a bit more water, that will usually wake me up and keep me energized for another half hour or so.

But I've already compressed my sleep schedule about as much as I'm comfortable with. I pay for it when I push it, so I try not to push it too much these days.

[Nemesis]

I've pretty much settled in the 5-6 hour range myself and I usually get just about fine.. but if I loose as little as an extra hour on one day then I feel totally knackered and need to recoup with some 8 hours sleep.

Which reminds me.. it's 2am here.. better go hit the pillows!
G'nite all!

[Indiepath]

I've just seen a documentry about (lack of) sleep in the local science channel. They talked about some radio guy who wanted to be on aire for a whole week, up until the third day he was a little tired, but fine. but at the fourth day he had tons of hallucinations and at the fifth day he though he saw his dead gandmother (or something) across the road, so he ran across it and a car hit him. dead.

Other guy (dead too, btw) couldnt sleep for 6 monthes due to some brain disfunction (he had a stroke). He was a uni proffesor that never seem to have any trouble sleeping after that stroke. Actually, he had trouble sleeping. He died from another stroke 6 montes after the first. Sad tale.

A friend of mine told that he tried not to sleep for 72 hours and he said he started to see things and got really... fuzzy. Yesterday there was an article on local newspaper: coder didn't sleep for 48 hours and he started to see "ghost-like creatures". I think this belongs to category "do-not-try-at-home".

[wazoo]

Sleep is always a good thing, though I wish we could develop a serum to imbide for those (one or two) nights a week I stay up REAL late working on the indie stuff...

If anyone's a Doctor Who fan, there's a Colin Baker story about a chaotic-neutral scientist Rani who extracts the chemicals generated from sleep from the brains of some poor blue collar boys circa the Industrial Revolution...

Anyways, back on topic, it's been well documented that sleep reduces the cortisol hormone which is definitely linked to weight gain and proper muscle growth. It chews up muscle tissue pretty damn fast,

Having problem losing weight/gaining muscle? Sleep for 6-8, and you should notice some definite improvements.

Here's a good (as any) article about it:
Sleep Article (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson.htm)

That being said, there should be a corollary for parents with kids under 2: sleep when you can get it!

If you have more than one child, forget that old saying "sleep when your baby sleeps", because for our boyz, when one's asleep the other's playing and wanting mucho attention..:)

[BantamCityGames]

A friend of mine told that he tried not to sleep for 72 hours and he said he started to see things and got really... fuzzy. Yesterday there was an article on local newspaper: coder didn't sleep for 48 hours and he started to see "ghost-like creatures". I think this belongs to category "do-not-try-at-home".

Haha. Hmmmm.... sounds like a good game idea ;)

[Coyote]

I'm living on 4 hours of sleep right now. It's probably gonna hit me like a ton of bricks around midnight tonight. I can push it for several 5-hour nights in a row, but when I get down to 4 or less, I get clobbered the following night.

[Sunshine]

If you have more than one child, forget that old saying "sleep when your baby sleeps", because for our boyz, when one's asleep the other's playing and wanting mucho attention..

That's why you have another kid, then you have an extra to entertain the one that's awake. :p

[cableshaft]

@Sunshine - I agree. In fact, in my case, I like an evening nap

I do the same thing you do. When I get home from work I check my email, a couple websites, and then I get the overpowering urge to go to sleep. Three hours later, I'm back up and feeling wonderful and ready to start coding. About four hours later, I go back to sleep a second time and wake up just in time to get ready for work. I even do this during the weekends a lot of the time, even though I don't work my day job then.

[Nemesis]

It's probably a viscious circle.. you sleep late the night before so you're tired by the time you get home from your day job.. so you sleep a couple of hours to recover and feel vibrant by about 10pm.. only to sleep again late at 2am.. and the cycle repeats! :)

I actually struggle hard to sleep one longer night rather than split it into two shorter naps but the result is I simple get to sleep one shorter night.. especially when I get carrie daway with my work or browsing the fora.

[Aggrav8d]

I say Polyphasic sleep!

http://polyphasic.blogspot.com/
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/15/103358/720
http://www.livejournal.com/community/polyphasic/

[Greg Squire]

I say Polyphasic sleep!

And that is what? Sleeping pills? :D Seriously though, 4-5 hours sleep with short naps during the day, still doesn't sound healthly to me. Short term might be doable, but a lifetime of that sounds like trouble.

[Sunshine]

No, Im afraid that that might not be very healthy at all.

You brain needs the kind of neural anti-toxin drenching that only starts to happen after you have been in deep sleep for several hours.

Waking up during your sleep cycle can be very bad for you, in fact, as anyone that has suffered from sleep anapnia can tell you, it can cause you to be mentally unfocused during the day and even causes accelerated aging if left untreated. :eek:

[Pkeod]

No, Im afraid that that might not be very healthy at all.

You brain needs the kind of neural anti-toxin drenching that only starts to happen after you have been in deep sleep for several hours.

Waking up during your sleep cycle can be very bad for you, in fact, as anyone that has suffered from sleep anapnia can tell you, it can cause you to be mentally unfocused during the day and even causes accelerated aging if left untreated. :eek:

Plus if you are really sleepy its easier for you to fall under hypnosis... :p
hypnomania.com

[robleong]

I do the same thing you do. When I get home from work I check my email, a couple websites, and then I get the overpowering urge to go to sleep. Three hours later, I'm back up and feeling wonderful and ready to start coding. About four hours later, I go back to sleep a second time and wake up just in time to get ready for work. I even do this during the weekends a lot of the time, even though I don't work my day job then.

My wife doesn't like me doing that though as she prefers me awake when she's awake! :)

[Coyote]

Well, last week - in a frenzy to finish Void War (NOW COMPLETE - check out the demo at http://www.voidwar.com ), I ended up living on the following schedule:

Tuesday Night: 3 hours of sleep
Wednesday Night: 5 hours of sleep, felt almost luxurious
Thursday Night: No sleep, decided to head into the 'day job' early rather than get only 2 hours of sleep.

I came home early Friday afternoon and napped for nearly 3 hours. That kept me awake and alert for about six more hours. But then I started fading and fading hard. I ended up sleeping about seven or eight more hours after that.

[serg3d]

As I'm full time now, I've found that if I sleep a little (from 10 min to 2 hours) after every 3-4 hours work my productivity grow considerably. But that could be an age thing (I'm near 40).

[oNyx]

I tried different sleeping timespans for awhile now and 6 hours seem to work best for me (surprisingly).

I also changed my radioclock from that horrific beep sound (heart attack each morning = not really great) to... white noise. That works best for me. Not sure why, but it's better than having such a way too fast sleep/awake transition.

[Dominique Biesmans]

serg3d
Junior Member


But that could be an age thing (I'm near 40).

He he, I couldn't resist :-)

Myself, I just passed the 35 mark, and it's true, I can't do the crazy things I used to do, without paying for it....

[Mustra]

my sleep is really wierd !

im sleeping like this for about a month !

i wake up at 8 am, and i sleep at 4 am, so basicly im with 4 hours sleeping everyday, and im super fine and energyzed ! Besids i cant sleep before 3/4 a.m , i get insomnia !

although when i reach teh weekend i play soccer on friday and saturday , and i usually crash at 1 am and wake up at 13/12 oclok (midday), then on sunday night i can only sleep at 4 a.m again !!!

this is bad cause im only 18, my parents work, and they get pissed of because of my making noise moving the chair in the computer that is in teh atic above my parents room, big problem is they make me go to sleep at 1 a.m because they get mad, so i go to my room and i study up to 4 a.m !

this is insane, i even fell like i could not sleep all week !!!

i think its because im really motivated on gettin my game done !