Portals affraid of something new?

[Dyno Kid]

I've just had an interesting conversation with a well known portal and was a little shocked.

Reading between the lines it seems that certain portals are affraid to try out new game mechanics so unless you make a time management or find the hidden object your going to be up against it from the off.

Match 3 is no longer popular (no surprise to me)

So even with great graphics, sound and a fantastic story unless its find the object or time management your going to struggle to get your game to the masses.

What are your thoughts?

Darren.

[Adrian Cummings]

This is common throughout the industry tho is it not - nobody wants to take a risk with their own money if it's so new an idea perhaps.

A little bit Chicken and Egg? - you don't always know until you try yourself I always say in this life.

Surely nobody wants any more match 3, zuma clones or jewel quests - or do they? :)

Personally I think the Cake Mania, bandwagon has passed by too... everybody always clones the best ones - but what does that say for originality - nothing! - copying ideas is much easier to do is it not?, but a bit lame really IMHO.

[Pallav Nawani]

It is not surprising. A game that does not sell makes the portal loose sales, because they could have sold a Diner Dash clone instead and made more money. Which is why portals would not be keen to take a game with a new mechanic.

There are some portals which release 4-5 games a week. You will have some trouble there.

There are others like Reflexive which release 7 games a week. You may be able to get them to take their game.

If you want to make games with new & innovative ideas, that is the price you have to pay. Unless, of course, your game is a hit on Reflexive, and then those other portals might take it too.

[Emmanuel]

Looking at our top 10 today, we have a genetic breeding sim (Plant Tycoon), a real estate sim (Build-a-lot), two adventure-puzzle games (Safecracker and Azada), and a adventure/HO hybrid (Dream chronicles). Back when BFG was only our publisher, we already respected them giving a chance to a lot of original titles, and not second-guessing customers (Fish Tycoon for instance.. biggest sleeper hit of 2005! Heck, they even took Garden War, which holds an unbroken record of non-sales on Bigfish but ultimately led to us working together :)) We never know which developer is going to come up with the next huge hit.

Best regards,
Emmanuel

[jcottier]

So even with great graphics, sound and a fantastic story ... your going to struggle to get your game to the masses.

I doubt about this. If you have a fantastic game with mass market appeal, they will take it. People should stop thinking that portals are being manage by stupid idiots. If it was the case they would not have reach their current status.

The quality bar as raised massively. So, if your are not producing very high quality game (proper artwork, massive amount of polish), you are going to have some difficulties getting much positive response from portals or publishers.

JC

[Sakura Games]

What game are you talking about? great graphic/sound, fantastic story? seems interesting, I'd like to see it.

[barrygamer]

Although the top ten on BigFish contains very similar games, it looks to me that the releases over the last 30 days are still pretty varied.
The lack of variety in the top ten is a bit concerning. [Edit: I'm talking about the large number of hidden object games, of course].

[Bmc]

No disrespect but ... I think it may be a case of them being polite.

I've seen and played your past games.

The graphics aren't near the level of quality they need to be at, even the new stuff for the Mole game.

If you are using the same system as your previous games, then the game play is not polished enough either.

With that ... I don't believe they are afraid of change, but they need to be able to play your game and get into it. It has to have some "casual magic" which to me it means it needs to be very user-friendly.

An excellent book on user-friendly design is called "The Design of Everyday Things". Check it out, or read this quickie article which applies the principles found in this book to games http://trac.bookofhook.com/bookofhook/trac.cgi/wiki/DoeTAppliedToGameDesign

[soniCron]

Its successor, Emotional Design, is an oft overlooked companion to The Design of Everyday Things. Definitely a great read from the opposite perspective. (Aesthetics.)

[Pkonst]

Surely nobody wants any more match 3, zuma clones or jewel quests - or do they?
jcottier is right. Portals need good quality games. True is, that you can creat decent match-3 clone from scratch in less then 2 months. Now state the real value of such efforts?
Great casual game - is real masterpiece of balanced gamedesign. If you are using settled genre - try to inhale fresh air into them.

[MerscomMan]

Although the top ten on BigFish contains very similar games, it looks to me that the releases over the last 30 days are still pretty varied.
The lack of variety in the top ten is a bit concerning. [Edit: I'm talking about the large number of hidden object games, of course].

I think you hit on an interesting point. The releases have been varied but the customers are gravitating to one or two types of games. It's not that unique games aren't being given a chance, unfortunately not that many people are buying them. It's consistent with a couple of conversation I had with a major aggregator and large portal back in Seattle at CGA, when they each said their biggest surprise from 2006 was that their efforts to introduce new genres and unique products was a huge failure, the games had the lowest conversion rates among their titles. For a portal, that is the biggest concern because they look at the bandwidth costs as their second largest expense after marketing and low conversion rates cost them a lot of money. For better or worse, it is clones of hidden object and click management games that were doing well. I won't blame the portals, it's the end users (i.e. the market) who are driving this.

[Dyno Kid]

Yeah sooner or later the paying public will have enough of the find the object type game and want something new, it might even come round in a big circle and match 3s will be popular once again ( I hope not..)

Yep the portals are getting fussy about quality art , music and story. Makes me wonder how many games are submitted and what the yes/no ratio is like?

If i was to take a guess i would say they take 1 in 10 games.

The bar has been raised.

Darren.

[Adrian Cummings]

It's much the same state of affairs regards mobile phone games - even then if they do take it (mobile games that is) your lucky if you get paid at all! - so many cheaters out there - I've effectively fired 9 this year alone regards that very subject!

[princec]

I really don't believe bandwidth costs are that relevant. Bandwidth these days is like air. Any seriously sized company can get their own dedicated pipes and servers and have bandwidth totally on tap.

The "problem" is that it's ... not a problem. If you want to compete in the portal ecosystem then you need to understand that the kinds of customers the portals attract are only interested in a very narrow set of criteria. The portals pretty much understand this too. If you want to write other sorts of games then one really needs to stop moaning about portals.

<edit>And you know what, I'm glad they're sticking to their narrow set of criteria because otherwise they'd be in competition with me. Right now, they aren't, because my kinds of gamers are not numerous enough.

Cas :)

[Bmc]

I would say less than that.

Most submissions are half-finished games, or weak clones with poor art. Then there are the games that are good in their own way, but just "not right" for the targeted audience.

I wouldn't really agree that the bar just been raised.
Art, music and story have all been fairly important for at least the last few years.


Develop a user-friendly game with an accessible theme. A good idea is to see what type of settings are popular in movies and tv. Such as doctors, fashion designers, Survivor type shows.

try to innovate at least little (think from MCF to Forgotten Riddles)

hire a decent artist if can't do gfx yourself

license some decent music

try your best to put together a decent narrative, doesn't need to be great, a good book I'd recommend to help you with story is Save the Cat, it's directed towards screenwriters but I think it would fit nicely for those writing game narrative as well.

get people like your mom, wife, kids etc/ to play your games. Don't ask them questions, watch them play and take notes. Fix any issues you discover.

Lastly, have some passion for what you are developing, if you don't love it, how can you expect others to.

Do all these things and you should have a good chance in the casual game industry.

[princec]

Lastly, have some passion for what you are developing, if you don't love it, how can you expect others to.

Do all these things and you should have a good chance in the casual game industry.
That's the bit where most will fail. Most of us just simply don't like the kinds of games you find on portals, pure and simple.

Cas :)

[soniCron]

For a portal, that is the biggest concern because they look at the bandwidth costs as their second largest expense... That's news to me. Almost every portal I've talked to subtracts the bandwidth cost from your cut.

[princec]

That's news to me. Almost every portal I've talked to subtracts the bandwidth cost from your cut.

Well, they're just bullshitting nickel-and-dimers then, because for about $10 they can get 2000GB of bandwidth.

Cas :)

[Adrian Cummings]

Yeah bandwidth is hardly an expense anymore these days (well compared to what it used to be anyway).

[jcottier]

A good idea is to see what type of settings are popular in movies and tv. Such as doctors, fashion designers, Survivor type shows.

Fashion Designer!!! Yeaa, I hope you are right, my soon to come(ish) game is using this exact setting.

http://forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=11623

We really want this game to be successfull on portal so we are doing what you are describing:

* We took a genre that people (and us) like to play.
* We pick up a setting who attrack girls mainly. I hope we will not scare too much males...
* We made the game mechanics as polish as every other top tittle in the genre.
* We made a lot of good twists and improvement of the genre.
* Hopefully, the Art will really stand out as it is beautifull and unique.
* we are putting a lot of love in the title.

We made this game in our spare time (we are both professional game dev with many years of experience). To finish it, I decided to go full time.

To give you some indication about what it cost to make a very polished game:

Main game mechanics == 20% of the time
Polish/Polish/Polish == 80% of the time.

Now, I don't know if this game is going to be succesfull but what I can tell you is that it takes a lot of time to bring a game to a high standard of polish.

JC

[Pkonst]

Fashion Designer!!! Yeaa, I hope you are right, my soon to come(ish) game is using this exact setting.
Hehe :) We are making game based on similar idea :) Even working title is a almost the same :) So be hurry :cool:

[jcottier]

So be hurry :cool:

Well, that is the exact opposite we are trying to do: Not rushing the game ;-)

Anyway, you bastard ;)

JC

[zoombapup]

Well, isnt that strange. Somehow portals are seeing that people like a certain type of game??

Can I suggest that they perhaps need to attract a more varied type of person then?

I mean, we berate the AAA industry for being only interested in hardcore gamers. But here's a classic case of the same thing only a different optimisation case.

Of course you'll only see big sales of a given type of game, if thats all you promote. I simply dont believe that somehow there is this uber-optimal "everybody likes just one game" scenario. I think its far more likely that because one game is popular, the next game of that genre gets promoted more, then the next. Sooner or later, its BOUND to lead to cannelization (optimising down a specific branch of possiblity).

Portals should fight the urge to cave and offer more of the same. Seriously, they wont do themselves any favours.

But hey, if it makes money, why NOT do it? Right?

[princec]

No, SOD portals, leave them to it! The last thing I want is them expanding on to my turf.

Cas :)

[papillon]

sod, turf... got something on your mind? :)

[Adrian Cummings]

Hmmm yes a gardening game with grass in it and a lawn mower - it's been done already ;)

[cpasley]

Well, isnt that strange. Somehow portals are seeing that people like a certain type of game??

Can I suggest that they perhaps need to attract a more varied type of person then?

I mean, we berate the AAA industry for being only interested in hardcore gamers. But here's a classic case of the same thing only a different optimisation case.

Of course you'll only see big sales of a given type of game, if thats all you promote. I simply dont believe that somehow there is this uber-optimal "everybody likes just one game" scenario. I think its far more likely that because one game is popular, the next game of that genre gets promoted more, then the next. Sooner or later, its BOUND to lead to cannelization (optimising down a specific branch of possiblity).

Portals should fight the urge to cave and offer more of the same. Seriously, they wont do themselves any favours.

But hey, if it makes money, why NOT do it? Right?

I think people underestimate the value of niche audiences. There are so many people out there who are just sick of the same old thing that when something refreshingly different comes along they'll latch onto it for dear life. I came to Kongregate from Adult Swim, and AS is kind of a shining example of that. Which is why when I became Director of Games for Kongregate I decided that I wouldn't take the same old thing for our premium games program. No time management, no tower defenses (unless they did something completely different with them.) Nobody really knows what will be a big success, so why not experiment?

/tooting our own horn.

Kongregate Premium Games Guidelines (http://www.kongregate.com/pages/premium)

[Dyno Kid]

Some valid replies there,

For me its a case of making fun original games as i simply dont have the desire to clone "the popular games" sure its a big risk and it easy to take the easy way out for a few bucks but wheres the achievment it that and more importantly for me would i enjoy cloning a game? certainly not:)

I will carry on making games i believe in for better or worse as i'm sure the trends like match 3, hidden object will have a shorter life span if the market becomes over saturated so on a personel note i'm happy everybody is cloning and not coming up with original IPs because at least the games i design are "differnt".

Darren.

No indie badge........is it in the post?

[Adrian Cummings]

I recently had a quick mail conversation with Big Fish - indeed you/I were right in the first place i.e. they are still looking for Hidden Object, Time Management games etc. because that's what sells their end.

My latest PC puzzle offering was good enough they said (thanks) but not going to resonate with their current paying customers they said (oh dear) - so I sold the Digital rights to somebody else and the Physical rights to another anyway (sorry both have to remain nameless here for now).

I'm now considering halting 2 mobile projects I have in the wings here to concentrate on some hybrid but original versions of current 'popular' PC games to widen out my appeal a little more.

Personally I'm not too bothered what I work on of my own as long as it makes me good turnover - endless revenue and sales are my god!

Yeah, yeah so I've sold out a bit - so what!? :)

[Qitsune]

I'm now considering halting 2 mobile projects I have in the wings here to concentrate on some hybrid but original versions of current 'popular' PC games to widen out my appeal a little more.

Hidden management and Time objects? There's plenty of possibility, find the employees sleeping in the copier room before the customers get mad, find each object often enough that they don't feel left out. The variations are endless ;)
Just pulling your leg.

[Dyno Kid]

I recently had a quick mail conversation with Big Fish - indeed you/I were right in the first place i.e. they are still looking for Hidden Object, Time Management games etc. because that's what sells their end.

My latest PC puzzle offering was good enough they said (thanks) but not going to resonate with their current paying customers they said (oh dear) - so I sold the Digital rights to somebody else and the Physical rights to another anyway (sorry both have to remain nameless here for now).

I'm now considering halting 2 mobile projects I have in the wings here to concentrate on some hybrid but original versions of current 'popular' PC games to widen out my appeal a little more.


I have also "considered" making these clone games but simply can't physicly force my self to do it:)

What happens when the bubble bursts? and it will, the customers want to play something new and are sick to death of hidden object, they go to another site maybe?

After what happened with match 3 the bigger portals like the one you mentioned need to look a "little" in the future and realise this type of game will only last so long and soon enough customers will demand a new style of game.

I have only played 2 hidden object games and im guessing its like the match 3 scene "played one played them all".

So does it boil down to.....unless you make a hidden object, time managment game your screwed?

"We only want to take games that are proven sellers"?

We are indie because we make indie games, does this mean were being dictated too and basically being "TOLD" what to make?

If this is the case i need to get a new job........

Darren.

[Jack Norton]

"We only want to take games that are proven sellers"?

We are indie because we make indie games, does this mean were being dictated too and basically being "TOLD" what to make?

If this is the case i need to get a new job........


That's what happens if you want to use portals. They want to earn money so why they should put up a game they know will sell 1/10 of their current standard games? they don't do charity.

You can still try to sell on your own but don't expect fast results anyway.

[Adrian Cummings]

You of course have a very good point I have to agree.

On the other hand I've written all the other type of games over the years so for me to bring a little more of what 'they' want into my current designs to create new 'hybrids' as I said, just makes it a bit more interesting for me into the bargain.

Also just because two portals said no to my latest creation, it still did'nt stop me selling it on to an even better publisher IMHO. However, although I enjoy what I do I am in it for the money to continue is business, so I always try to adapt a bit here and there to what is current... soon as it's not current anymore then I move on to the next thing.

Somewhat flexible is the best way to stay in business, even as an indie on your own like me.

Besides I've done 4 Dweebs games in the last 8 years on PC and I'd like to have a go at something totally new heh but which perhaps incorporates some of what 'they' actually want to increase sales even further?

Personally I can't stand the time management clones either - very boring indeed really :P

[moose6912]

The problem with a new game mechanic that is so unique and so only-1-in-the-world is that the mechanic can be so alien and unfamiliar to the casual audience that the player closes the game after 5 minutes as the player can't get the hang of it. So the end result could be a game that have real unique mechanic, but has low sales figures as not a lot of casual players will get the hang of your game mechanic.

I prefer to follow the Pareto principle of 80/20. 80% familiar and 20% new.

[Spore Man]

Here's another possibility.. maybe the new unique play mechanic just isn't good?
:D