Difference between Indie and Big Time.

[Mashew]

I have been wondering, what makes an Indie an indie. (No, not about the badge.) Indies aren't just single people developers, some of you have 3 people or more on a team.

My question, where does an Indie change to a Big Time company?

[DrWilloughby]

My question, where does an Indie change to a Big Time company?
Better get rid of the word "big" in your sentence, it doesn't belong.

Indie game companies in general don't have major outside funding, are small, and light, and run on the passion of the developers.

It is generally not the goal of an "indie" to be big time. Most of us would rather be in this space. I, for one, went from a career in the "big" industry to indie.

[Desktop Gaming]

Its easier to pay the bills when you're part of the "big time".

[Adrian Cummings]

Aye that it is/was in my case also.

[princec]

I'd like to make it to the "big time". Provided I was the boss.

Cas :)

[moose6912]

Better get rid of the word "big" in your sentence, it doesn't belong.

Indie game companies in general don't have major outside funding, are small, and light, and run on the passion of the developers.

It is generally not the goal of an "indie" to be big time. Most of us would rather be in this space. I, for one, went from a career in the "big" industry to indie.

But then, how do you exactly quantify "big time". Any absolute benchmark or measure to gauge "big time"?

[Mashew]

But then, how do you exactly quantify "big time". Any absolute benchmark or measure to gauge "big time"?

That's what I am trying to figure out too. :P

[TimS]

I have been wondering, what makes an Indie an indie. (No, not about the badge.) Indies aren't just single people developers, some of you have 3 people or more on a team.

I may be in the extreme minority around here, but I'm still of the camp thinking that "indie" is a shortened form of "independent".

So there are small team operations that are NOT indie (like Retro64 just after his joining PopCap or Blue Tea contracting for Big Fish)... and there can be groups of 10 or 50 that ARE indie... like Lionhead prior to Microsoft eating them.

If your own games are funding your team's continued operations... then you're very likely an embodiment of "indie" no matter how many people you have employed. If a publisher is directing your game development choices or you need to produce in accordance with their schedule to keep your team fed, then you aren't "indie".

I'm also one of those that thinks good, creative, innovative games can and often DO come from non-indie teams. One thing's got nothin' to do with the other.

There's my 2 cents for those who still want to argue this oddball semantics question.

-T

[Mashew]

Indie = ...If your own games are funding your team's continued operations.. .

"Big Time" = ...If a publisher is directing your game development choices or you need to produce in accordance with their schedule to keep your team fed...



That was the perfect definitions. :P

[SteveZ]

Before I get into thrown into an argument about what is "indie", my definition of an indie is simply someone who is his/her own boss and still own the games' IP. In that light, I'm still an indie, Tim :)

I see a Big Time company the same as a fulltime indie company that produces sustainable income. Specifically:

But then, how do you exactly quantify "big time". Any absolute benchmark or measure to gauge "big time"?

I would say that on average your game can net you at least 3 times the cost of making that game (including cost for your expected hourly wage) in about a 12-18 month timeframe. This way you save enough money and still be able to comfortably fund your next game.

-Steve Z.

[KG_Brad]

Rather than focus on what it takes to make it big, just do it! Don't just meet the bar, raise it! Who's to say that you can't go make the next big indie game and leave everyone wondering how you did it? Look no further than the early 1990's. id Software (who used to just be a bunch of kids in ripped jeans) changed the entire course of computer gaming history. They were indies back then. Why couldn't you do the same exact thing?

[Bad Sector]

Why couldn't you do the same exact thing?

There aren't any new mainstream computing platforms around who are considered bad for games :-). id have been at the right place, at the right time with the right people. Not that having a very successful game (or series of games) cannot be done, that's another topic, but you just can't use id as an example. Unless you can find (or recreate, but that's close to impossible) yourself in the exactly same situation they were.

Aw yeah, and besides, their very first team was made of two programmers (one did also overall design), one designer, one artist, one biz guy and they had close connections with Apogee, the biggest shareware developer and publisher who provided them with the sound guy and some money. Many indies cannot even get teamed up with an artist and they have to outsource the art of their game...

[KG_Brad]

Ok, that was a bad example. How about Introversion? They're just a few person team and they create games that even the mainstream gaming press appreciates. My point is, it's not as impossible as most would think. It just takes hard work, dedication, and lots of junk food.

[Andy]

This way you save enough money and still be able to comfortably fund your next game.

-Steve Z.

Steve, I'm wondering to know:
Are you going to fund your next game by yourself or get money from BigFish again?..

[Polycount Productions]

I believe it depends on the person, he simply needs to "be like indie" (the definition must be more art than science...). Here's one post: The difficult definition of indie game developer (http://www.gameproducer.net/2007/09/03/the-difficult-definition-of-indie-game-developer/)

[SteveZ]

Steve, I'm wondering to know:
Are you going to fund your next game by yourself or get money from BigFish again?..

If the question implies am I able to fund my next game, based on FR's sales, yes I have no problem doing that at all. But do I want to? Probably not, I prefer to jumpstart my next project right away.

-Steve Z.

[Andy]

Well. I believe we have figured out here at least one approve of general "indie" definition. No one cares or places in doubt if one is able to pay for his project by himself. But if one gets the money on it from publisher pocket he hardly could be called independent developer.
Does this says anything bad about such developer? - absolutely not. But this looks strange for me when some successful developers like to pose independent when they all the way sold to their publishers. Where this really comes from? Do they still too young and wanna look pure like crystal against their own dreams or what?..

[Sakura Games]

Wow so you got funding from BFG to make such a game (which must have a very good budget, if I recall well) and they didn't own IP!? seems a really good move from you, congrats, I didn't know that was possible to get such kind of funding and still retain the IP (so in theory you could make Mayan Princess 2 and get published by Realarcade no?).

Congrats again, I wish I was in your position!

[lakibuk]

Wow so you got funding from BFG to make such a game (which must have a very good budget, if I recall well) and they didn't own IP!?
Why would BigFish do that? Financing a game that the developer is free to sell on other portals? Sounds unlikely although i know nothing about the Portal business.

[Andy]

Well. May be Steve was meaning his another games properties? Meaning that BigFish didn't aquire the whole his company yet.. :confused:

[SteveZ]

To clear a few things up:

Wow so you got funding from BFG to make such a game (which must have a very good budget, if I recall well) and they didn't own IP!?

That's correct, I retained the IP. And because of that, the budget was significantly less, but enough for me to make the game I envisioned. By the time I hit beta, my bank account was drying up fast. That's the risk, but I have total faith in FR by then.

(so in theory you could make Mayan Princess 2 and get published by Realarcade no?).

Yes, that is possible but I will never do that.

Why would BigFish do that? Financing a game that the developer is free to sell on other portals? Sounds unlikely although i know nothing about the Portal business.

They have the distribution rights.

But if one gets the money on it from publisher pocket he hardly could be called independent developer.


This is a choice rather than a requirement. I could've easily used my own budget and created "Cactus Bruce and the Fins of Wind", but I opted not to. There were a few reasons I for this:
1. Sales potential, as mentioned in my posts for "State of Industry" thread. And, seeing the numbers so far, there is a very clear distinction between what a strong casual and indie game can potentially make.
2. I like to challenge myself and complete in the casual space with an innovative title on familiar mechanics, with the goal of hitting number one positions in major portals.
3. I truly enjoy making this game.

-Steve Z.

[stanchat]

This is a choice rather than a requirement. I could've easily used my own budget and created "Cactus Bruce and the Fins of Wind", but I opted not to. There were a few reasons I for this:
1. Sales potential, as mentioned in my posts for "State of Industry" thread. And, seeing the numbers so far, there is a very clear distinction between what a strong casual and indie game can potentially make.
2. I like to challenge myself and complete in the casual space with an innovative title on familiar mechanics, with the goal of hitting number one positions in major portals.
3. I truly enjoy making this game.

-Steve Z.
You have a very clear vision for what you want to accomplish and that is not seen around these parts too often. Your approach is very agile and will adapt well to the changing casula/indie marketplace.

What was the process you used to approach BFG to secure funding for both Teddy Tavern and Mayan:Riddles?

[Andy]

2. I like to challenge myself and complete in the casual space with an innovative title on familiar mechanics, with the goal of hitting number one positions in major portals.


I don't believe this is possible without support of the distributor on their portal. Support which you got from them when agreed to make exclusive game for them. No wonder you are number one in the Big Fish in a moment - they need to return their money. I'd wish you to get the same success on another portals with this title. Let's check now if this is possible.

[SteveZ]

What was the process you used to approach BFG to secure funding for both Teddy Tavern and Mayan:Riddles?

I created a one level playable demo with sufficient graphics followed by a concise GDD.

Here's how it looked: http://www.blueteagames.com/temp1.jpg

Hope that helps!

-Steve Z.

[SteveZ]

I don't believe this is possible without support of the distributor on their portal. Support which you got from them when agreed to make exclusive game for them. No wonder you are number one in the Big Fish in a moment - they need to return their money.

Yes, exclusive titles does get more promotion, but it's the merit of the game that gets it all the way to number one. I'm not just saying this out of my a$$ because I made Teddy Tavern, a BFG exclusive, and it was no where close to top one.

As you stated about a return on the money, yes it makes sense for the publisher to do that. And, they probably broke even with Teddy Tavern after 3-4 months of sales. BFG can break even with FR by this Friday.

I'd wish you to get the same success on another portals with this title. Let's check now if this is possible.

Sounds like a worthwhile challenge. I'll inform you every time FR hits the top 10 on other portals.

-Steve Z.

[TimS]

This is a choice rather than a requirement. I could've easily used my own budget and created "Cactus Bruce and the Fins of Wind", but I opted not to.

It being a choice doesn't alter how independent it is... it is a choice and not a requirement that I became a programmer instead of a park ranger, but that doesn't mean I call myself a park ranger by proxy just because I could have been one. Let's not let the language get away from us here... :D

2. I like to challenge myself and complete in the casual space with an innovative title on familiar mechanics, with the goal of hitting number one positions in major portals.

Absolutely! And in every regard here you should be proud of your success. Best of luck with your further titles along this path!

btw - "Fins of Wind"? On a cactus? Hell YEAH.

-T