*Indie Author* ?

[Desktop Gaming]

Just noticed a lot of people have this by their name, while many others don't.

What's it all about?

[svero]

People with that moniker are people who belong to the "indie author" group. Basically it means they've published at least 1 game. (commercially either online or retail etc..) It also means they can access the private forum. Anyone meeting the above criteria can ask to be added to that group. Basically anyone who's making and selling games for a living... as opposed to just starting out or it's just a hobby etc...

[princec]

Apparently a temporary tag to distinguish those who have from those who haven't, so you can better gauge opinion from fact I suppose.

Anybody missing the tag who is needing one - just contact the mods.

Cas :)

[svero]

For those who contacted me.. please be patient.. I'm busy this week. give it a few days.

[Midnight Synergy]

Btw, svero... you don't seem to have a tag.

[Dan MacDonald]

The tag is based on the primary usergroup the user is in, mods and admins need to have their administrator or moderator usergroup as the primary. I'll cook up a little something special for them. It's my intention to have some nice graphical badges cooked up... :)

[electronicStar]

I don't find this idea very good. I'm not complaining for myself because I haven't published any games so I wouldn't deserve one anyway and I am happy like that.
But as I said in the other thread, having released a game doesn't prevent posters from the possibility of being obnoxious or not having a clue about what they're talking about.
And I've spotted at least one account who didn't publish games but have the badge, only merit seemingly being the fact that of being good friends with x or having been on a review panel.
So what's the point of giving people badges, it looks like it's just a way to give friends and family a one-up over the mundane and IMO it won't fix the problems of indiegamer.
Or is it becoming an elitist club for cronies to lock the business to their advantage?

[Desktop Gaming]

I don't find this idea very good. I'm not complaining for myself because I haven't published any games so I wouldn't deserve one anyway and I am happy like that.
But as I said in the other thread, having released a game doesn't prevent posters from the possibility of being obnoxious or not having a clue about what they're talking about.
And I've spotted at least one account who didn't publish games but have the badge, only merit seemingly being the fact that of being good friends with x or having been on a review panel.
So what's the point of giving people badges, it looks like it's just a way to give friends and family a one-up over the mundane and IMO it won't fix the problems of indiegamer.
Or is it becoming an elitist club for cronies to lock the business to their advantage?
Um....

You know... that's actually a very good point. Svero - please disregard my earlier PM regarding this issue.

I've had ten games published myself so I did PM Svero about this without really thinking about how it all looked to others. After reading the above post I can only agree - things like this will promote segregation. It will be assumed (rightly or otherwise) that the opinions and views of non-Indie Authors count for nothing. On the flipside, so-called Indie Authors aren't always going to be right.

When I first came here, I asked which people should/shouldn't be listened to and I got several PMs about it. Some of the people on the "pay no attention to" list already have this Indie Author tag... which I guess speaks volumes about the integrity of the whole thing.

[Dan MacDonald]

Yeah, like I said, the account that got the badge was the same one that was used to give access to the private forums and some members who had access to those forums granfathered in to having a badge (despite the fact the hadn't really published a game as an indie). It's not a perfect system, this is the first time the 'Indie Author' members have been visible on the main forums so we are actively doing some pruning and trimming.

Technically the system isn't "Live" yet, but we don't have a test forums to play around on so any mods I make have to be done to this one.

give us a chance to get everything settled before you pass judgment.

I wont deny it though, with any type of exclusive system there is going to be SOME "old boys club" business going on. It's just the nature of communities and social organizations. We'll do our best to keep it at a minimum and post some guidelines for access.

Also if you should have 'Indie Author' status, and you don't. Your best bet of getting it is PM'ing me. Mike and svero have businesses to run, I get paid to sit at a desk :)

[Bmc]

When I first came here, I asked which people should/shouldn't be listened to and I got several PMs about it.

That isn't such a hot idea either, you should of decided for yourself what (not who) was worth listening. Anyone (who aren't just trolling) will have something valuable to add at least once in a while .. and on the flip side of the coin ... No one knows everything, and even "the elders" will be wrong about something every once in a while.

[AJirenius]

Well, somehow it still sounds fair to me. Exclusivity is a way to actually lower the noise and be able to talk to each other "on the same level". I was actually part of a pro game audiodesign forum by invitation for a very long time (still am I think) and that system made it very easy to get professional help from each other and helped to find the right information without having to swim through a lot of garbage.
As you guys say, it's not ideal but maybe it's necessary.
I say, work hard to release that commercial title instead. It IS an indiedeveloper forum after all, not a hobbydeveloper forum.

The downside of this is that this public forum as we know it will probably die now (or change into something completely different)

[Andy]

Basically I like the idea. Let's see who is THE *Indie Author* and who is just a BS here. :D

[Adrian Cummings]

I'm an elder old crusty - I have written more commercial games than I care to remember - I do not want to be part of anything that appears elite - please do not give me a tag or badge it looks a bit sucky! :P

[princec]

If the "Indie Author" badge were only obtainable by arcane rites and back-room rituals with the old boys then it would be elitist and exclusive. However there is only one thing you have to do to get this badge and that's write your sodding game - which doesn't make it in the least bit exclusive because anyone can do it who is in this forum. And if you can't do it and you're in the forum, then fine - no badge, and we know you're here for some other purpose than the forum was intended for, but it's not like you're kicked out or anything.

As for ignoring people's opinions who don't have the badge - gimme a break! Caveat lector. But any n00b wandering in the forums may feel free to take advice with a pinch of salt if someone has plainly no experience of the industry.

Cas :)

[Desktop Gaming]

And if you can't do it and you're in the forum, then fine - no badge, and we know you're here for some other purpose than the forum was intended for, but it's not like you're kicked out or anything.That's nonsense.

By your logic, you're suggesting that because I've written ten published games and have chosen not to have this 'badge', I therefore have an ulterior motive for being here? :confused:

Illogical, captain. Maybe some people just don't see the need to wave their proverbial genitalia?

[Adrian Cummings]

If peeps want to wear a badge/tag then let them it's a free world (when I last looked that is) but I choose to not want one, as personally it just seems a bit childish in reality.

You can all wear yours with pride I'm not stopping you, but better moderation here would suit the end result better than badges no?

My wife thinks you are mostly all children here - you know what shes right for once! :)

Make sure you give 'Andy' a badge tho he should have a very special one all to himself :)

[Desktop Gaming]

If peeps want to wear a badge/tag then let them it's a free world (when I last looked that is) but I choose to not want oneSame, after seeing the light following electronicStar's post.

But far from being concerned about how childish it is, I'd be more worried about if it will be perceived that somebody who has no 'badge' has therefore done nothing and knows nothing (regardless of the fact that they may have done more than most people and just don't want to 'play'), which is pretty much what princec implied would be the case.

[zoombapup]

Guys, dont need to get all bent out of shape. As Steve points out, its just a different label in a text field that somehow is used for access rights. Nothing strange in having different access levels, it just allows a few seperations that people have asked for.

I highly doubt it will make much difference.

[Adrian Cummings]

But far from being concerned about how childish it is, I'd be more worried about if it will be perceived that somebody who has no 'badge' has therefore done nothing and knows nothing (regardless of the fact that they may have done more than most people and just don't want to 'play'), which is pretty much what princec implied would be the case.

Here, here I'll drink to that as I still have much to learn myself given some of the indie 'Padawan' talent around here of late.

[Spore Man]

Take it the other way. Award a big fat *NOOB* badge to certain users to discredit their opinions. :rolleyes:

[princec]

You'll be wanting the "badge" so you can use the private forum.

Cas :)

[Andy]

Make sure you give 'Andy' a badge tho he should have a very special one all to himself :)

What the f**k Adrian?! :mad: First of all I haven't ever asked for one and I had long time to do that.

If they will place that stupid yellow star onto me I'll require to give them to all old f...ers around. Including you darling. No kidding! :mad:

[Andy]

You'll be wanting the "badge" so you can use the private forum.

Cas :)

I need that your private forum with the same strengh as I need this your yellow star. :D

[Dan MacDonald]

There're lots of people who have worked on retail games who are members of these forums. Anyone who's shipped retail titles and tried to finish a game independently will be the 1st to tell you it's not the same game. The tools and skills required to finish a game when you’re being paid a salary and working on a team at the office are not the same ones that are necessary to help you finish an game independently.

This badge is intended to show those people who have gutted it out, and found a way to ship one or more indie games. These are people who have put their money where their mouth is and found a way to get the job done in an enviornment where nights and weekends are the norms and working months without pay or accountability are par for the course. In most cases this is PC / Mac Downloadable games (casual or otherwise), in some cases this might be an XBLA title like the recent winners of Microsoft’s dreamBuildPlay competition.

I know people with experience in the main retail industry might feel a little indignant about not being credited for the tireless hours they spent toiling away in what amounts to a meat grinder of an industry. I can empathize; I really can, but these forums exist to promote independent developers and those who have managed to have some success as independents.

[Andy]

...these forums exist to promote independent developers and those who have managed to have some success as independents.

This is the point where this discussion really could be turned into flame war discussing who of that badge owners really had any success. With discussion of every person and so on... But I'll better keep silence on this.

Do these forums really exist to PROMOTE?.. :eek: I was always in supposition that they are devoted to share the experience of doing indie business.

[Dan MacDonald]

That's true andy, they exsist more as a service to people who are independently making games. I'd like to do more adovcating / promoting however :)

And yes, anything that isn't 100% obvious, scientifically testable, and provable will cause contraversy on these forums. It's the nature of having a bunch of developers all in one place. But let the discussion start! at least it gives people something to think about :)

[Pyabo]

This all seems vaguely familiar.... yeeeeess. I seem to recall reading a book about this very subject!

:)

[Roman Budzowski]

I think that the bagde is cool. I am happy to have the bagde and if I didn't, I would try to get one (because that would mean I finished the game). If you don't want one, it's fine.

cheers
Roman

[Adrian Cummings]

What the f**k Adrian?! :mad: First of all I haven't ever asked for one and I had long time to do that.

If they will place that stupid yellow star onto me I'll require to give them to all old f...ers around. Including you darling. No kidding! :mad:

I should have and 'jaded old croakers badge' instead perhaps.

You should have a 'funny posts' badge Andy.

This forum is slowly turning into a bit of farce?, perhaps it would be better if I did'nt post again, there is nothing anybody can learn from me that has'nt already been said by many other talented people here.

May you all make hundreds of thousands of sales!

I'm done here (I'll become a lurker!).

[frozax]

Basically it means they've published at least 1 game. (commercially either online or retail etc..)[...]. Basically anyone who's making and selling games for a living... as opposed to just starting out or it's just a hobby etc...

Well there is a big difference between "they've published at least 1 game" and "selling games for a living".
I personally have published 2 games (on my site + 2 different portals) but I do not develop indie games for a living, just for fun.
I may however ask for the badge to see what's in this private forum.

[Dan MacDonald]

I realize everyone hyper focusing on the fear that this will somehow cause some sort of elitist culture on indiegamer where "Indie Authors" talk down to all the "non authors" on the forum.

In practice this just doesn't hold water. If you look around generally speaking at those people with the "Indie Author" tag, they are the ones who tend to add the most value to the forum, post their experiences, and in general help make the forum what it is. They aren’t elitist snobs, or lurkers who come out every now and then to shoot down noobs only to retreat to their corners.

The formation of an "elite" is actually quite natural; communities have always had a tendency to stratify as they grow due to factors like politics and ability. In this case it's certainly ability, there are different levels of status inherent in this board already. There are those that have never even made a game and are relative novices, there are those that have shipped several indie games and are quite experience. There are those with retail game development experience but not independent game development experience. There are those that have been around a really long time and know everything intellectually but never put it to good use.

These levels of ability form natural social levels within this community, and yes atop of our socal strata is "the elite". The elite can mean many different things depending on what community or what society you belong to. But in this one, it means those people who have done it.

This is not some new social status within indiegamer either, it's been around since the very beginning. You just had to stick around a while and post on the forums to figure out who those people were. Adding an *Indie Author* tag just makes that status a little more obvious and causes the realization to happen a little sooner.

In short, this change is not going to fundamentally change the forums. People will post as they always have. Some people will feel bad because they don't think they’ll ever finish a game and they don’t like feeling excluded from the badge. The crys of this segment of the community is likely to be "elitism!", which is the rallying cry of anyone who feels excluded. The bright side is that anyone who has the guts and determination can develop and independent game and elevate themselves to that status.

[KNau]

(Paraphrasing Office Space) "You know the nazis had badges, too - that they made the Jews wear!" :)

We already have badges of validation, though - it's called the user profile and signature. Check out the state of each poster's website, traffic and the quality of games before taking their advice as gold. It's pretty effective!

Of course, I say this and I don't have any of games in my sig. I'm just updating - honest (http://www.gamefiesta.com/Piggy-Banker.html)! (There's more, too (http://www.gametunnel.com/gamespace.php?id=150&tab=3) - just not for sale any longer).

[Dan MacDonald]

Well there is a big difference between "they've published at least 1 game" and "selling games for a living".
I personally have published 2 games (on my site + 2 different portals) but I do not develop indie games for a living, just for fun.
I may however ask for the badge to see what's in this private forum.


I think what he means is making some money from developing games, weather that's enough to support or not is not as consiquential.

That said, we still need to button down exactly what the badge means, but the that's the gneral idea. Someone who's actually done something with a game the've developed independently. Somone who's faced the challenges of making and selling an independent game, someone who can speak from experience etc..

[AJirenius]

I realize everyone hyper focusing on the fear that this will somehow cause some sort of elitist culture on indiegamer where "Indie Authors" talk down to all the "non authors" on the forum.

In practice this just doesn't hold water. If you look around generally speaking at those people with the "Indie Author" tag, they are the ones who tend to add the most value to the forum, post their experiences, and in general help make the forum what it is. They aren’t elitist snobs, or lurkers who come out every now and then to shoot down noobs only to retreat to their corners.

The formation of an "elite" is actually quite natural; communities have always had a tendency to stratify as they grow due to factors like politics and ability. In this case it's certainly ability, there are different levels of status inherent in this board already. There are those that have never even made a game and are relative novices, there are those that have shipped several indie games and are quite experience. There are those with retail game development experience but not independent game development experience. There are those that have been around a really long time and know everything intellectually but never put it to good use.

These levels of ability form natural social levels within this community, and yes atop of our socal strata is "the elite". The elite can mean many different things depending on what community or what society you belong to. But in this one, it means those people who have done it.

This is not some new social status within indiegamer either, it's been around since the very beginning. You just had to stick around a while and post on the forums to figure out who those people were. Adding an *Indie Author* tag just makes that status a little more obvious and causes the realization to happen a little sooner.

In short, this change is not going to fundamentally change the forums. People will post as they always have. Some people will feel bad because they don't think they’ll ever finish a game and they don’t like feeling excluded from the badge. The crys of this segment of the community is likely to be "elitism!", which is the rallying cry of anyone who feels excluded. The bright side is that anyone who has the guts and determination can develop and independent game and elevate themselves to that status.

I really don't have this fear at all about elitism. But we can all agree on that the public forum will have even less experienced posting as they can post in their private forum instead and only let some announcements reaching the public area. I thought the whole issue started with people annoyed over the lack of experienced indies actually contributing in the same way as before. You think you solved it?

[Dan MacDonald]

It wont solve that problem, not directly anyway.

I do hope it helps readers weigh feedback when they get it, I also hope it incentivizes people who are maybe working on a game but can't seem to find the motivation to finish it. To some people a badge on some forum is meaningless, to others something to be proud of. To those who don't care it will have little affect on them, to those who do care, it will have a positive affect on them.

I also hope that it helps the more experienced members of our fourms feel vested and and appreciated as well as maybe a little responsibility (to engage other members of the forum) as someone who others are looking to emulate.

[princec]

Aww don't go away, you've got many times more experience than most people.

Cas :)

[princec]

I think what he means is making some money from developing games, weather that's enough to support or not is not as consiquential.

That said, we still need to button down exactly what the badge means, but the that's the gneral idea. Someone who's actually done something with a game the've developed independently. Somone who's faced the challenges of making and selling an independent game, someone who can speak from experience etc..

I hope that this doesn't exclude people who make freeware, or people who merely publish or market games, or people who just do the language translations...

...basically if you've got anything to do with a finished title that's either available now or in the past, you probably earned that badge. I hope.

Cas :)

[Desktop Gaming]

Here's an idea.

Why don't you just make the "speshul forum" read-only for 'non-achievers'? That way it would at least make it seem like less of an elitist secret society.

[jcottier]

What are these private forums?
Are they interesting?

Why not making them accessible (READ ONLY) to non badge holder. At least it will stop a lot of the polemic.

Also, make the badge smaller and not so much in your face (Small font and not bold), it does show off way too much that it is almost ridiculous.

JC

[Dan MacDonald]

Their really not all that eventful, most people tend to post out here. There's no sales figures or secret anything. Mostly just cliffski bitching about people stealing his games and stuff like that. The point is I guess, that cliffski has a place to bitch about people stealing his games without the whole world seeing him bitching.
:cool:

[DrWilloughby]

What are these private forums?
Are they interesting?

Why not making them accessible (READ ONLY) to non badge holder. At least it will stop a lot of the polemic.

Also, make the badge smaller and not so much in your face (Small font and not bold), it does show off way too much that it is almost ridiculous.

JC

They are private so that public traffic can't see them -- security/piracy and other touchy topics sometimes get covered in there.

[tentons]

If you look around generally speaking at those people with the "Indie Author" tag, they are the ones who tend to add the most value to the forum, post their experiences, and in general help make the forum what it is.
So why not just award those folks deemed helpful as MVP's or something? At least there is a subjective basis for the badge in that case.

Without that subjective decision, it's ego masturbation: you get one just for having sold a game which has no bearing on the quality of your input at this forum, which, I believe, is the issue this is meant to address? It also leaves out people who are still building games but have a lot of good things to contribute and freely give their time and knowledge. This is a bit of a slap in the face for them, like saying, "Thanks for making this a better place for indie devs, but since you aren't one of us by our silly criteria, you get no recognition for that. But feel free to keep giving your time and knowledge so the forum is better. Maybe one day you can drive a Dodge Stratus with the rest of us if you finish that game."

I'm fulltime for 2 years now, and I've released 3 games as an indie, but that doesn't mean anything I say should receive more respect than anything a first poster says. There's no causal relationship between having a released game and being useful to the forums.

On the other hand, if I was constantly adding great content to the forums (which I'm not, sorry), then granting some acknowledgment of thanks for that would seem not only polite of the mods but genuinely useful for other posters because they would know that the person thus tagged has a reputation for professionalism and generosity toward forum users.

My $.02 on the topic.

[Desktop Gaming]

If you look around generally speaking at those people with the "Indie Author" tag, they are the ones who tend to add the most value to the forum, post their experiences, and in general help make the forum what it is.Wow.

Is there anything else you can come up with that could possibly make the rest of us feel any more worthless??

[Chris Evans]

There're lots of people who have worked on retail games who are members of these forums. Anyone who's shipped retail titles and tried to finish a game independently will be the 1st to tell you it's not the same game. The tools and skills required to finish a game when you’re being paid a salary and working on a team at the office are not the same ones that are necessary to help you finish an game independently.

This badge is intended to show those people who have gutted it out, and found a way to ship one or more indie games. These are people who have put their money where their mouth is and found a way to get the job done in an enviornment where nights and weekends are the norms and working months without pay or accountability are par for the course. In most cases this is PC / Mac Downloadable games (casual or otherwise), in some cases this might be an XBLA title like the recent winners of Microsoft’s dreamBuildPlay competition.

I know people with experience in the main retail industry might feel a little indignant about not being credited for the tireless hours they spent toiling away in what amounts to a meat grinder of an industry. I can empathize; I really can, but these forums exist to promote independent developers and those who have managed to have some success as independents.

What he said.

The forum has lost a bit of focus over the last year or so. Lately it's starting to feel little too much like a general game developer forum such as Gamedev.net. The purpose of Indiegamer is to promote and foster Independent game development. And occasionally discuss some periphery issues/topics that an Indie author faces (ie. Indie Life forum). Technical and game design discussions are fine but hopefully when it's in the scope of Indie game development. Maybe part of the problem is that we have too many subforums.

But I'm in favor of the Indie Author tag/badge because it helps keep the focus of these forums at the forefront. These forums are meant for people who actually plan to finish and release a game independently. The tag is a nice little incentive for those who are actively working on their game and the tag is nice reward for those who have already finished and released their game. It's a little constant reminder of what we should be striving for on this forum.

Personally, I hope this forum is mostly composed of "Do'ers" and not just "Dreamers". People who are actively trying to pursue the dream of Independent game development instead of just talking about it. I really don't see the tag/badge as elitist, I think the tag is a great indication that particular member is a "Do'er" and not someone who's just spinning their wheels in the mud.

It doesn't mean people who don't have the tag have worthless opinions or input. It just means the people who do have the tag have completed the first stage of the Indie journey. If it gives their posts a little more weight so be it.

That said, when you release a game you don't attain instant wisdom. You basically learn what works and doesn't work for your situation. Sometimes that info can be useful for others, sometimes it isn't. But it's a contribution to the pot of shared experience, which adds more value to the community. If we can encourage more people to get to this point then all the better.

[tentons]

The tag is a nice little incentive for those who are actively working on their game and the tag is nice reward for those who have already finished and released their game. It's a little constant reminder of what we should be striving for on this forum.
That's a nice sentiment, and I like it. Why not have a badge for that? That kind of ego masturbation is positive.

But it's not related to the fact that the forums are (yet again? don't we hear this every now and then?) degenerating into noob noise. If you want to reward people who contribute a lot to the forums, do it in a way that is contextual to their contributions to the forums, not simply because they have released a game.

[Nikster]

*Indie Author* is basically 17bit software, and I guess came about due to the forums going down the pan thread, and tbh, Indie Author is a bit vague considering the different frequents that are also indie but specialize in different fields, perhaps *Indie Game Author aka 17bit software* or something ;)

All that said, I've seen posts from people who now have the stamp which gave bad advice, bad as in don't wipe your arse after a dump, rather than don't shake it more than once.

While personally I don't care about the new class, I'm more worried as in some cases it can be a smokescreen to so called noobs and just might make things worse, I guess time will tell.

Anyway, you all can't tell your arse from your elbows, and I only trust cas, mainly because he's a lunatic and when you mention java, he turns into peter simon on crack ;) all j/k of course.

tbh, some kind of kudos points per section would be good, I guess something like gamedev's, where the original poster can hand out to each reply whether it was helpful or not, and of course, a FAQ...

anyway, I ain't posted much for ages, so please forgive me.

[Dan MacDonald]

So why not just award those folks deemed helpful as MVP's or something?

That's a great idea, there are some people who have been around for ages and do helpful things like providing feedback on the new games posted, or helping steer new members to exsisting answer threads etc. They may never release a game because they spend all their time on the forums... ;) .. but I'm happy to reward them with a badge of some sort for their efforts.

One thing at a time though :)

[sillytuna]

Yay, hello Nik. Back again I see :)

I honestly don't think the badge makes much difference - wouldn't mind seeing the forum, not so bothered about the badge (plus my original indie days were 10 years ago, unlike many here).

Let people judge posts for themselves. I'd hope the sensible posts (and posters) will stand out. It's certainly not something to get wound up about.

Move on people. There's nothing to see here.

[electronicStar]

The formation of an "elite" is actually quite natural; communities have always had a tendency to stratify as they grow due to factors like politics and ability. In this case it's certainly ability, there are different levels of status inherent in this board already. There are those that have never even made a game and are relative novices, there are those that have shipped several indie games and are quite experience. There are those with retail game development experience but not independent game development experience. There are those that have been around a really long time and know everything intellectually but never put it to good use.

These levels of ability form natural social levels within this community, and yes atop of our socal strata is "the elite". The elite can mean many different things depending on what community or what society you belong to. But in this one, it means those people who have done it.

Wow!
Just wow.

I think it's better not to continue that conversation because I can see it becoming real sh*tty real fast with political overtones.
Anyway I like how some good friends of friends just "naturally" get into the elite without achieving anything. Just like in real life actually hahahaha.

And I'd be curious to know now if frozax going to be deemed worthy or not.Funny how the *indie author* status needs to be reevaluated when non-members of the elite start asking for it....

As for me I'll probably become less than a lurker now because I don't want any "respected member" taking advantage of his situation relative to mine if/when I finish my game and decide to announce it on this forum before trying to secure deals with publishers. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

[cliffski]

Most people who are selling finished games have the links in their sigs. All this new group name text does is simplify the process of clicking and link and seeing who someone is if you are new here.
It's not like everyone in that forum group got given free laptops or a pile of cash, and everyone else didn't.
The mods just changed the text for a certain user group. Theres no value judgement involved. This is inevitable when the forum hits a certain size and people tend not to know peoples backgrounds so much.
It's not a big deal.

[bignobody]

Well, I know mine makes me feel like a big man. ;)

[Rainer Deyke]

So why not just award those folks deemed helpful as MVP's or something? At least there is a subjective basis for the badge in that case.

I am truly horrified by this idea. As I see it, the main danger to this forum isn't the influx of noobs - it's that this forum could turn into a clique where the participants are too busy fighting for social ranking to get anything done.

Do we want this forum to be an open resource or a closed social club?

In the former case, if there is a badge system at all, it should be completely objective and mandatory. If people care about who has released a game and who hasn't, they can look at the badge. If they don't, they can ignore the badge. If the badge merely represents the opinion of some moderator or approval committee, it is completely worthless. Same if the absence of a badge merely represents a refusal to participate in the badge system.

In the latter case, just close the forum completely to newcomers. Maybe allow new people in if they send a request to a moderator or if an existing member invites them.

[Dan MacDonald]

Funny, I'm reading an interview with bill roper about hellgate london and he had this response to a question about the subscription model in Hellgate london.


Interviewer: So once you decided to go with tiers, there's sort of--and I'm probably gonna get the number wrong--it seems that there's two parts to the second tier which I guess you're calling Elite--

BillRoper:You know, just to interrupt--we're not really calling it Elite. [Laughs.] That was kind of a dev name that just--when we talked to [Games For Windows magazine], we threw it out there. We were throwing out joking names for stuff and I think unfortunately, that ended up having a really bad connotation with people. They said, "Oh, so either I'm Elite or I'm nothing," and it really isn't that way. I think we were trying to come up with something that just kind of sounded gamer-y and cool. It really just breaks down to your standard out-of-the-box experience and then whether you're a subscriber or not.

----

It seems to me "elite" is a loaded term that when bantered about, causes a lot of people to get their feathers all ruffled. When in reality there's really no foul play intended...

[Andy]

I liked this combination: bignobody = *Indie Author* :D

Sorry bud, nothing personal against you. OK?

[soniCron]

This is causing a bit of a stir right now, but I think it's for the best. That is, of course, provided the-powers-that-be show responsibility and integrity with its dispense. If they don't, then it's possible we'll see an upheaval or two, potentially harmful to the forum.

At the moment, I'm a bit disillusioned with it. It kind of hurts my feelings that my badge has been revoked despite my (unadvertised) experience. Of course, I'm not surprised: I've upset, offended, and disrupted enough senior members to warrant serious opposition.

But it brings up an interesting philosophical observation: That of a deterministic quantifier for eligibility versus the exceptional inapplicability. Who's wrong: the creator or the created? Does fault with one fault both?

Regardless, I wish it the best, because I think it's an important distinction a lot of people need, whether they know it or not. I have already found it invaluable at making swift judgments on posters I don't recognize. Of course, I always apply my own weighted scale, but I think it helps properly calibrate it. At least to a degree.

Ultimately, I think the most important thing these badges will achieve are a thrust toward a clear and defined position on this forum's own purpose--questioning the meaning of its life, if you will--through discussion, disruption, and a solidifying of personality.

Enough of the pacifistic, unfocused forums we've grown to love. Indiegamer has made a bold choice and I can only hope it charges toward self-identity and ultimate purpose. Push hard, push strong, and push fast, because if you don't, you'll sink into the ordinary.

[svero]

Boy... You people are all CRAZY! The private forum is bar none the most boring forum on this site. So don't get all excited!!

The little tag helps Identify people who've published a game vs. those who haven't. It's useful for people reading responses.

Sigs are ok but not everyone wants to put a sig for various reasons. For instance they may not want their posts to directly represent the "official" policy of the indie company or portal they work for etc... As well I don't necessarily want to go trolling through some guys website with 50 games on it from reflexive arcade to determine if 3 of them were actually by him etc...

I don't know what these elitism fears are all about. Either you've published a game or you haven't. As well this was brought on by people complaining about the quality of posts on the forum as a possible way to help things. I mean.. I guess it's true what they say. You can please some of the people some of the time. I didn't realize it would be a big can of worms. You people need to RELAX.

I think we now need a new tag which is a little zen symbol for people that don't go insane every thread... maybe when you click it it could play birds tweeting and a stream or something...

[Firespirit]

I think it's a good idea.

As someone who's not shipped a game, and knows how hard it is to stay motivated and focused, I need all the incentives I can get.

A small tag/icon, and being a member of a more or less exclusive group of peers is just that. It's a small medal for releasing.

[JoshuaSmyth]

I think its a good idea, for me it doesn't represent elitism, but rather "has achieved to at least a minimum standard"

Whats wrong with a little certificate of competance?

[Polycount Productions]

Firespirit: I think it's a good idea.
I wonder if you replied to this part in svero's post: :rolleyes:

I think we now need a new tag which is a little zen symbol for people that don't go insane every thread... maybe when you click it it could play birds tweeting and a stream or something...

Oh, and I'd like one. White, please. :D

[tentons]

In the former case, if there is a badge system at all, it should be completely objective and mandatory. If people care about who has released a game and who hasn't, they can look at the badge.
If the badge's purpose is to only show whether or not you have released a game, I agree.

If the badge's purpose is to inform others of who has been exceptionally helpful and professional on the forums, I disagree, because releasing a game does not equate to your contributions to the forums being any less noisy than the next guy's (or gal's). Only human judgment can decide that. And the original purpose of the badge was to help eliminate forum noise. Somehow. I don't see it as a solution to that problem, but I like the idea of recognizing people who really go the extra mile. It won't be hard to decide who those few people are because it's obvious if you spend any time here.

I think there should be at least two badges in that case: one for people who've released games, and one for helpful folks that put in a lot of time here and are not just noise and are not cantankerous. If it leads to competition for the rare MVP badge, then the only way you can "win" is by being consistently helpful, professional, and a source of reliable information. How is that horrifying?

[svero]

If the badge's purpose is to inform others of who has been exceptionally helpful and professional on the forums, I disagree, because releasing a game does not equate to your contributions to the forums being any less noisy than the next guy's (or gal's).

Its true that being an author doesnt always equate with being a good poster. But generally speaking you're MORE likely to be a good poster if you have the experience of developing a game from scratch and take it to market. I can't help it if some competent game developers are ALSO crazy. (you know who you are!)

As for the MVP badge idea.. ehn.. I donno. Might be a good idea, but lets start with this one and see how it goes -- I'd actually prefer it to be a little graphic of some kind. The idea came from the cgsociety.org forum where a badge shows up for members. (on that forum its just a matter of paying a membership fee...)

[Rainer Deyke]

If the badge's purpose is to inform others of who has been exceptionally helpful and professional on the forums, I disagree, because releasing a game does not equate to your contributions to the forums being any less noisy than the next guy's (or gal's). Only human judgment can decide that. And the original purpose of the badge was to help eliminate forum noise. Somehow. I don't see it as a solution to that problem, but I like the idea of recognizing people who really go the extra mile. It won't be hard to decide who those few people are because it's obvious if you spend any time here.

In subjective matters such as the relative helpfulness of forum members, I think it's best to let each person decide for themselves. Officially endorsing the opinion of the moderators invites useless discussions about who should or should not get the badge, and makes it difficult to disagree with the moderators.

[jankoM]

I agree that someone who yesterday got an idea that he wants to make indie games and someone who is making them for years can feel and appear similarly competent and "smart" (I know how I was feeling). That's why I like to know who made something yet and who didn't. It doesn't mean that I won't listen the one who didn't. I will just have an additional information when reading the posts.

I like to be on a forum of the "doers" which is not overcrowded by the "dreamers" also. It's easier to be dreamer than doer.

But on the other hand the *Indie Author* is not very good solution for artists and music makers/sfx who can be also very professional and live by their work but basically haven't released a game. Finding out which artist is *author* and which isn't is like a pool of grey.

if the badge is for releasing a game then it can just say "Released a game" which also holds much less tripping baggage. And maybe it could be a little less eye-jumping.

But all in all... The badge doesn't worry me at all ... the problem we have with previous "elite" or the "elders" is that they were leaving the forum not that they were stomping on the newbies or less "elite".

[princec]

If you're a freelance artist and you've done the art for a game, you're an "indie author".

But it's an awfully tacky badge isn't it?

I've got a neat idea: how about for the forum to allow "indie authors" to upload a graphic avatar finally for their posts.

Cas :)

[bignobody]

I liked this combination: bignobody = *Indie Author* :D
Sorry bud, nothing personal against you. OK?
No worries. I've got a good (if strange) sense of humour and a thick skin, so it's all good :D

[tentons]

Officially endorsing the opinion of the moderators invites useless discussions about who should or should not get the badge, and makes it difficult to disagree with the moderators.
I think that would depend on the culture of the forums. It works in the OGRE forums. *shrugs*

[Coyote]

I like the badge.

If too much time passes between releases, do you lose the badge? If so, I may be in trouble.. :)

[svero]

I like the badge.

If too much time passes between releases, do you lose the badge? If so, I may be in trouble.. :)

yeah me too!

- S

[Andy]

Who is an author of the badge btw? I like it too.
Not that I want one but it is pretty well done. Good job who ever you are! :D

[AJirenius]

I sure want one. Not to show you guys, but to show me.

Working hard to get one within this month actually

[Dan MacDonald]

The allmighty DayDream (http://forums.indiegamer.com/member.php?u=701) created the badge. He's also the artist behind numerous indiegamer forum member projects :)

[Andy]

The allmighty DayDream (http://forums.indiegamer.com/member.php?u=701) created the badge. He's also the artist behind numerous indiegamer forum member projects :)

I know this is this f..ker. I always able to recognize his awesome jobs. Two simple shapes and here you go - get the awesome stuff.
Great job DayDream! As always...

[lakibuk]

This is one big chunk of a badge.
I wonder what is its symbolism?
Indie author: The one who has the the correct (check-mark) ideas (bulb) ?

[Andy]

This is one big chunk of a badge.
I wonder what is its symbolism?
Indie author: The one who has the the correct (check-mark) ideas (bulb) ?

It means "Your ideas are big BS! Wanna be an Indie Author? - Get the idea, work hard and release it" :D

[Tom Cain]

I think it's: turned an idea (bulb in thought balloon) into (arrow) a completed product (checkmarked box). The symbols are pretty clear to me, but maybe they don't translate worldwide?

[lakibuk]

I think it's: turned an idea (bulb in thought balloon) into (arrow) a completed product (checkmarked box). The symbols are pretty clear to me, but maybe they don't translate worldwide?
Ah yes, must be this.

[Bad Sector]

That's what i thought too, so it works :-)

[soniCron]

Oh, I thought it was a hen inside of a bubble. I should turn down my monitor brightness...

[DayDream]

A quick work from the source...
Yes... it was supposed to be idea turning into a finished (boxed) product - ticked off task...

Thanks for the nice words and hey... it might be big and tacky to some... but I still like my 5min job... :)

[Andy]

... but I still like my 5min job... :)

Real samurai don't need a time to prepare for a battle. He should be always ready for it. ;)

[GolfHacker]

Good icon. I knew right away what it was. I like it.

[MiceHead]

Hey! How many games do you have to publish to get a badge around here? We're on our 12th! And we've been bringing you quality video games for over 75 years. I demand a recount.

I demand the ability to count.

With my fingers.

And toes.

It's 2am.

[svero]

Dont worry.. we'll get to everyone.. my inbox is full of people asking.. Ill do them all in one sweep when i get a bit of time.

- S

[MiceHead]

Ah! I felt left out of the club. I did get a nice t-shirt, though. It has "game developer" written on it in crayon.

[Sakura Games]

I think another very useful badge could be called "BRAGMASTER INDIE" - I see lot of potential user for this kind of badge in this forums recently! :D

[Nauris]

I think another very useful badge could be called "BRAGMASTER INDIE" - I see lot of potential user for this kind of badge in this forums recently! :D

Lurkers need one too then :D

[Shadow528]

Why not just make a whole new forum for those who have the "badge". To me, and don't get me wrong, I feel like it's a waste of time to even have the thing. What works for one person isn't going to work for another. There are different situations, matters, and personalities in each person's circle. Trying to seperate the big boys from the little boys is like saying, "They got the badge because they aren't indie anymore." This idea is completely wrong. The last time that I looked, this is indiegamer, not bigboys. Seriously, before you do something like that, see if it's in the best interest for the indie market. This almost seems like gamedev. And that place was a waste of time. Please prove me wrong.

[ChrisP]

The last time that I looked, this is indiegamer, not bigboys.

Erm. The last time that I looked, most of the people around here with badges had indeed published indie games. (Not all, since non-indie releases also count, but definitely most.) So what was your complaint again?

[Shadow528]

That regardless of someone making a game or not, until they get published (if that is their goal), they are still Indie. Most of the people on these forums are looking for incite on how they began or finished their projects. By splitting sections for those who have badges, it's like saying, they are better than us. And I'm not saying this to cause an argument, but it seems that this is creating an atmosphere of tension. Everybody on this forum is here because of a form of communication. It's a chain. Not only does it help promote yourself, but it gets you together with others who have the same overall goal. To create games.

By splitting up the users, it is like saying, you aren't qualified. To me, this sounds ridiculous. If you are damn good at making games, would you even be on this? A lot of people wouldn't have time, at least I know I wouldn't. I come on to boards like this for input for my own concepts, as well as giving output for others. But that's my two cents.

[cliffski]

On the contrary. I'm pretty good at this, and have lots of time on my hands to surf forums, because I'm my own boss and make enough from it that I don't have to work long hours.
All the indie author badge does is point out who has shipped a game. People who have been around the indie games biz for more than 5 years can easily tell you that this is a huge milestone and very useful for adding weight to someone's opinion.
Its like anything, do you want the surgeon who operates on you to be having his first go at it, or to have 200 ops under his belt? ditto the guy flying the plane :D.

[ChrisP]

Atmosphere of tension? I haven't noticed any such atmosphere. At least not beyond the slight unfriendliness I perceived when I first joined as a newbie. In fact, I think these forums have become more friendly recently. Maybe that's just because I'm a bit more settled in now, but regardless I don't agree that the badges have made things worse.

Welcome to the forums, by the way. :)

[svero]

There does tend to be a little unfriendliness here.. especially towards people just starting out. If someone asks a newb question they are often ganged up on or tormented mercilessly. I don't really think that's necessary and I'd be quite happy if the mods stomped on it when it happens. That's especially true in the "beginners" forum which, after all, is supposed to be for newb questions.

I "get" the reaction and why it exists. It seems in game dev, there's a lot of "big idea" folk who just need a little help with the whole "making the actual game" part, and that a lot of the people who are starting out are really more in the category of game players with a few ideas of their own, than they are developers, but I think sometimes there's an overreaction too.

[Shadow528]

But this is a forum for those who are newer to the gaming market. What I'm trying to get across is this, if you want a seperate section for people who do have a game under their belt, why not make a whole new forum just for that concept. I know at Game Dev (which I hate), the people on the forum are first ones to tell you that you can't do it. As far as I know, if you want something bad enough, it's going to get done. Svero is right with everything that he said. I just feel that by creating locked areas, you are limiting those who haven't created a game.

Gaming terms, how many people like level caps? However, in this case, it becomes a knowledge cap. Sometimes, the answer is right in front of you, and you just need something to awaken that idea. By blending that atmosphere a bit, you are creating a somewhat diverse community. By blending it a lot, you are creating a very diverse community. By the way, you guys have shown more effort to answer these thoughts than GameDev answered any questions that I had.

Another thing is this, how does IndieGamer determine who gets the "badge", and who doesn't. It seems biased... Thanks for the welcoming. :)

[cliffski]

"But this is a forum for those who are newer to the gaming market"

It is? if so, I better be banned. Together with about 100 of us.
I think you are referring to gamedev there.

[Desktop Gaming]

But this is a forum for those who are newer to the gaming marketNo it isn't.... is it?

I came here originally because there were people here with loads of games in their sigs, and not just any old games - Chuzzle springs to mind.

If I wanted a forum full of posts like "hallo how I are maek a company? btw I am 14 and i olny got my allowance cos i spended all my paper round money on moonpies lolz", then there are other sites I could go to.

Another thing is this, how does IndieGamer determine who gets the "badge", and who doesn't. It seems biasedYep its biased alright - biased towards people who have already produced and published a game by whatever means.

And yes, I've changed my tune but so what? Got more important things to think about.

[Applewood]

That regardless of someone making a game or not, until they get published (if that is their goal), they are still Indie. Most of the people on these forums are looking for incite on how they began or finished their projects. By splitting sections for those who have badges, it's like saying, they are better than usWTF ? I've kept out of this one because opinions are like assholes - everyone has one, and most of this has been about opinion only. But yours is just wrong, bud - they are better than you! (At least in terms of the purpose of this board)

This is a forum for people who create indie games. Those who haven't finished yet, but are in the process of, can look forward to a badge soon when they finish. That just leaves no badges for lurkers, wannabes, never-were's and never-could-be's. If anyone is one of those, they should keep their peace and be thankful nobody's kicked them out yet!

Just a recap: If you don't have an indie game on sale, or about to go on sale, then you're not an indie developer. You're just a guy on board. How can this be up for debate ?!?

Another thing is this, how does IndieGamer determine who gets the "badge",Well, the people who run indiegamer see who's released stuff and who hasn't? Just taking a wild stab in the dark here, mind.

[ChrisP]

Another thing is this, how does IndieGamer determine who gets the "badge", and who doesn't. It seems biased...

It's not biased at all; it's completely objective. If someone has made a game, then they're eligible to get a badge. If someone has made a game and hasn't got a badge, that just means they've been accidentally overlooked. Anyone in that position should PM a moderator and ask, and they'll get one. That's what I did.

[svero]

We don't overlook people. We simply don't give a badge unless someone explicitly asks for one. Some people may not want it for whatever reason. If you want the badge and access to the private forums PM one of the admins.

[KG_Brad]

Instead of complaining about the badges, why don't you finish a game and get one? I'm going to ask for one as soon as my game is done.

[James C. Smith]

But this is a forum for those who are newer to the gaming market.

Add me to the list of people who seem to be in the wrong forum.

[Andy]

Add me to the list of people who seem to be in the wrong forum.

James, you are moderator. Could steal one badge for yourself... :D

[James C. Smith]

I don’t care about the badge. I just don’t want to hang out in a place that is supposedly “for those who are newer to the gaming market”. I want to hang out with my peers and shape ideas, experience, strategies and techniques for creating and selling downloadable games.

[Andy]

I want to hand out with my peers and shape ideas, experience, strategies and techniques for creating and selling downloadable games.

You probably should get out of your office room and meet with your marketing gurus. :p

[lennard]

WTF ? I've kept out of this one because opinions are like assholes - everyone has one, and most of this has been about opinion only. But yours is just wrong, bud - they are better than you! (At least in terms of the purpose of this board)

This is a forum for people who create indie games. Those who haven't finished yet, but are in the process of, can look forward to a badge soon when they finish. That just leaves no badges for lurkers, wannabes, never-were's and never-could-be's. If anyone is one of those, they should keep their peace and be thankful nobody's kicked them out yet!

Just a recap: If you don't have an indie game on sale, or about to go on sale, then you're not an indie developer. You're just a guy on board. How can this be up for debate ?!?

Well, the people who run indiegamer see who's released stuff and who hasn't? Just taking a wild stab in the dark here, mind.



Nice one Paul. I'm feeling cantakerous about BS these days myself and this brought a smile to my face.

This is a very useful board to me on several levels. At this point I mostly know who has done what but if I'm getting advice from the ether then, yeah, I want to know how much faith to put into it. People who finish stuff and people who know how to actually sell stuff (not just what they think) get more credibility.

I also really like my shiny badge. Felt like Steve Martin in The Jerk when the new phone book arrived.

[ChrisP]

We don't overlook people. We simply don't give a badge unless someone explicitly asks for one. Some people may not want it for whatever reason.

Ah, I see. I thought the plan was to hand them out when eligible persons were spotted, and only use PMs to make sure nobody gets missed. My mistake!

[Qitsune]

Maybe a faq is in order? With the rules and process. It would be worth it since the badge seems to worry a lot of visitors.

edit: that is, making the actual faq looking slightly more decisive, I've seen many different definitions of what should be done to get the badge, regarding freelancers, artist, programmers, published commercial games etc and it seems not everyone agrees so the faqs end up being an argument and not so much a faq.

[Grey Alien]

Haha this thread is funny. I have been away form this site for a few months (working hard on my current game and trying not to get distracted!) and had to Google for what the "Indie Author" badge was all about (well I mean I could guess, it was pretty obvious). I note that some people who said they didn't want one now have one...

Anyway, I've made a bunch of games and so I'm applying for a badge now - why not? If it helps people take my "info" more seriously then good - if not, I don't care because I'll still have a badge ner ner ne nah nah :-p Also I'd like to check out Cliffski's bitchin' in the "boring forum" :-)