XBLA realities

[andrew]

I just attended Kim Pallister's talk at AGC about how to get your game on XBLA...

The good:

- 45 million downloads, steady growth
- Original titles get 350K DL's in the first month, "hits" can make $125K gross in the first week
- First 2 months of sales are only 35% of lifetime volume
- Practically all titles are profitable

The bad:

- 85 titles in the pipeline (!!), all signed in the last 12 months. Competition is extremely intense.
- The quality bar is getting very high now that major publishers like EA are actively competing in the space
- All major portfolio holes have "been filled" according to MS, so it's very difficult to be the only game in your category
- Dev kits are $10K, but they will loan them under certain conditions
- Testing and localization is handled through MS but they bill you... estimate $35-50K just for that
- Cert and testing requirements are VERY strict, and if you have networking/multiplayer you are under extra scrutiny. If you fail cert too many times, they will start charging you
- Wide localization is essential, especially Asian languages
- MS will *not* front money for indies other than loaning dev kits and providing some services

What they are looking for: approachable, family titles... social titles / party games... experimental/unique titles... "sims" type games.... titles that leverage 360-only strengths... titles have have a broader message

What they're overloaded with: 2D/3D shooters, racing games, match 3 games, diner dash/etc clones

My basic takeaway is that it's increasingly looking like you need either a publisher or $100K+ in funding to compete in this space (even though almost all XBLA titles are profitable)

- andrew

[zoombapup]

Well there's a surprise, someone makes a profit and the big boys come in the barrier to entry goes in.

You have to be a fast mover/early adopter in any of the new platforms to ever really get in without a huge budget.

I'd basically say that XBLA is a bust right now for indie titles. Too bad.

Maybe XNA pro will help, but I seriously doubt it.

[princec]

Oh dear. Back to the internet for us then.

Oh! I'm already there.

Cas :)

[Andy]

Thanks a lot for useful report Andrew!
This is pretty inspiring... to not get in there. :D

[marshmonkey]

all hail the free and open PC platform!

[KNau]

Don't forget the Mac! If you want a "console" with a captive audience, make a Mac version dagnabit!

[princec]

Indeed :) God bless the Mac for without it there'd be no Puppygames.

Cas :)

[sillytuna]

re: $100k(+) in funding

May I say - "and the rest"

However, it isn't ruling out indies. You will probably need to attach a publisher or an investor, or fund it from a success on the PC scene. It's doable, it's just not like PC/Mac's.

[princec]

However, it isn't ruling out indies. You will probably need to attach a publisher or an investorThat sort of makes you... not independent though, doesn't it.

Cas :)

[sillytuna]

Well, then you get into the whole "what is indie" discussion which I'd rather avoid. Mostly anyway. Ok, I'll say a bit.

Publisher involvement does make things trickier, but if you get to design the game you want and hold your IP and have a say in the marketing...

I'd say Behemoth are as indie as anyone, but they hooked up with publishers for retail (and other platforms).

Miramax were a true indie film company run by the renowned Bob and Harvey Weinstein brothers, but they also managed to be extremely commercial. Actually, the Miramax story is incredibly - read about it!

As I said, indie means different things to different people, and I do wish more people would respect that view because I find some people's opinions extreme and totally unhelpful.

Anyway, investment can come from anywhere - most people doing indie work will be finding money from work/spouse/family/friends, sometimes rather a lot of money.

XBLA is a dedicated commercial platform, PC and Mac are not. If you want to do your own title on XBLA you can do, but yes, there are a lot more barriers with platform holders. Anyone who knows me knows my strong views on this - I will NOT defend platform holders and their cushy big publisher relationship (small publishers suffer a lot too, including on good projects).

There should be a specific place on XBLA (etc) for "indies", small ones included, but you still need barriers because I honestly think that filling a dedicated platform with junk would be to the detriment of everyone else. The barriers should just be suitably designed (e.g. affordable).

If your game does well, I'm sure your can then add more languages and content, but you should have a chance with your game first.

[princec]

You can't fill that which is infinite :) I think there's a great opportunity for the platform holders to have a free-for-all space. Ah well.

Cas :)

[sillytuna]

I'll tell you the problem with a free for all space. It'll fill up with rubbish - often buggy rubbish. If it fills up with rubbish, it's much harder to get users to stick around. There's also platform, content control, and security issues which are quite significant.

However, what they could do - since the hardware is good enough - is perhaps have an official Flash 9 port (with extras supporting further hardware features) but on a specific XBLA only on-console portal (as opposed to the web's miniclip, newgrounds, et al). This doesn't get around all the issues but it could certainly get around many.

They could still go for the demo/full-game model, no need to be "free" stuff, and they could still have some sensible (low) barriers to entry.

[cliffski]

The problem is Microsoft decide what's rubbish. Microsoft are dicks. I worked on an x-box game for 2 years, and they canned it because it wasn't close enough to halo in style. The game was awesome.
I don't want a company staffed by middle aged middle class white American men to determine what is and is not 'good enough' for me to consider buying.
I love the game 'cossacks'. many people hated it. I have played more of masters of defence than I have guild wars. my tastes are not 100% meshed with the beer loving couch potato north-American college kid which is the xbox target market.
In short, I'll always be a PC gamer, because I resent other people telling me what I will like. :D

[Sysiphus]

cossacks did seem nice...Did you liked Tzar ?
(sorry the OT)

[Andy]

...I don't want a company staffed by middle aged middle class white American men...

Racism! Nationalism! What else? :D
I love Microsoft. I love it even after this their Kim ( man ) Pallister is such a... ;) Hi Kim! So could be you will answer my emails next time?... :D

[cyrus_zuo]

As an aside, I think this discussion points to what intrigues me about WiiWare. It's far less epensive to make and much more open (though possibly teetering on the rubbish problem Alex mentions...it will be interesting to see if that happens).

I don't think the out of pocket minimum to put a game up on WiiWare will be more than 8K (ESRB + Wii DevKit). Of course you still have to develop the game and all, but you'd have to do that anyway, making the actual cost difference the cost it takes put the game on a console :).

For those who can, XBLA is a great opportunity with a proven market where games have shown a very high probability of being in the black. Their are gate-keepers and large expenses, but it's still fantastic to be on XBLA and if it is something you can do, I'd recommend giving it your all.

For those who are looking for other opportunities, the WiiWare route might be a better fit. It is easier and cheaper to get on (less gatekeeprs and less cost).

Frankly I'd love to see Rock Legend on any one of the three consoles :).

Anyway...aside over...I've mentioned some of this before as I think that indies are quite possibly missing out on a big opportunity. Getting together 10k to port an already successful game to a console that has mouse-like control seems like something to consider.

[cliffski]

I'd be very happy to see Kudos or KRL on XBLA, but it would never happen, just due to huge bureaucracy, and tons of middle men. I wouldn't' spend tens of thousands of dollars on the off chance of some committee saying yes. If anyone from Microsoft reads this and thinks otherwise, email me :D.

[sillytuna]

Cliffski - it's for absolutely this reason that I've been quite vocal in my opinions (erm, rather more than I should have been at times).

I believe there need to be some barriers, but they should be dictated by development quality (bugs, *useful* advice) and not by "the game is from publisher x" or "I'm a numbskull producer but I'm going to tell YOU what to do in your game".

I know far too many stories like yours and have seen companies taken out by bizarre platform holder decisions.

I don't have bad experiences with Microsoft at this point, Nintendo have always been great [to us], and then there is that other platform holder. At this point I have to hold my tongue, but if you were a reader on a certain private forum a couple of years ago you'd understand my feelings towards them.

Platform holders are a whole world of pain, even when they are being nice. You have to really know what you're dealing with.

Unless you're prepared for it, stick to the open PC, Mac and Linux market.

[sillytuna]

I agree with Russell about WiiWare in future, but that system has a few holes at present. I'm sure it'll be sorted with time.

[andrew]

I talked to one of the other bizdev guys at MS Casual (which also encompasses XBLA) and he mentioned that they WANT indies... it's just that the production bar has risen a bit. So, for the single guy in a bedroom with no funding, it's perhaps out of reach -- but for a good team with some amount of cash to front, there is a significant opportunity.

They are really looking for games that exploit the social / multiplayer / community space, in a way that is 360-specific. They are even open to MMO-like titles with server backend, and games that have elements of persistence. But it was discouraging to me to hear how many people have flooded that space already.

I really doubt that Wiiware will be any cheaper... at some point your title's gonna need test / cert / localization and that all costs money. Perhaps Nintendo will front more of it, but then in essence they're acting as your publisher (and that always comes with strings attached).

Btw - I saw Skill City had a booth on the show floor -- go indies!

[marshmonkey]

WiiWare more open?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAUx_dofH-o

[cliffski]

I talked to one of the other bizdev guys at MS Casual (which also encompasses XBLA) and he mentioned that they WANT indies... it's just that the production bar has risen a bit. So, for the single guy in a bedroom with no funding, it's perhaps out of reach --

only in PC gaming does this bullshit persist that quality == production cost. In music this isn't true (plenty of massively popular solo artists who had zero money, the Blair witch project was a low budget indie movie, pretty much every book is a solo effort.
Rollercoaster Tycoon was written by 1 guy + 1 contract artist. it sold millions of copies. The truth is that the people who 'greenlight' projects at publishers often do NOT play games, they do not even *like* games, many of them would be just as happy running factories making washing machines. So they look at pictures and pick the prettiest ones. It's the same in hollywood. the film can be shit, but if its about terrorism and has bruce willis in then IT MUST BE GREAT RIGHT?
It's all very very sad.

[MerscomMan]

I don't think the out of pocket minimum to put a game up on WiiWare will be more than 8K (ESRB + Wii DevKit). Of course you still have to develop the game and all, but you'd have to do that anyway, making the actual cost difference the cost it takes put the game on a console :).


Don't forget to include testing in your cost calculations. For all console games (online and fixed media), the manufacturers require a certain level of 3rd party testing to get through Lot Check. This will be the case with WiiWare, also. Even in a best case, you are probably looking at $25,000+.

[cyrus_zuo]

Don't forget to include testing in your cost calculations. For all console games (online and fixed media), the manufacturers require a certain level of 3rd party testing to get through Lot Check. This will be the case with WiiWare, also. Even in a best case, you are probably looking at $25,000+.

From Nintendo's presentation on WiiWare, the testing fee won't be a cost for developers. (for the 'how that works' you'll need to talk to them ;))

It may be a little low, but I stand by my 8k figure :)

Also, on the YouTube video...I thought it was hilarious when I first saw it last week. Contacting Reggie directly probably isn't the best approach. I emailed a better contact to Edmund after seeing the video. WiiWare is WAY more open...in fact, as mentioned earlier, that is a potential downfall as there is a possibility of a lot of garbage b/c the barriers to entry are so low.

Again...direct email (from WarioWorld) for WiiWare is WiiWare@noa.nintendo.com. If you can do 360...do it! You almost ASSUREDLY WILL make your money back. If you are on a tighter budget and can't invest in XBLA, and I think especially if you have a proven game on the PC that uses the mouse, WiiWare could be a big opportunity.

[cyrus_zuo]

I really doubt that Wiiware will be any cheaper... at some point your title's gonna need test / cert / localization and that all costs money. Perhaps Nintendo will front more of it, but then in essence they're acting as your publisher (and that always comes with strings attached).

Again, I would say contact Nintendo...many of these assertions are assumptions that are inaccurate and Nintendo can quickly answer the questions. Calling Nintendo a publisher on WiiWare is not in line with the framework they have set up at all.

WiiWare is much cheaper, I think anyone who says otherwise simply hasn't talked to Nintendo to get the facts. Again, my biggest concern is that it is too cheap, but the framework Nintendo has in place takes that into account. It expects a lot of games and uses that wisely to help there be a lower barrier of entry.

[Vic Davis]

only in PC gaming does this bullshit persist that quality == production cost. In music this isn't true (plenty of massively popular solo artists who had zero money, the Blair witch project was a low budget indie movie, pretty much every book is a solo effort.
Rollercoaster Tycoon was written by 1 guy + 1 contract artist. it sold millions of copies. The truth is that the people who 'greenlight' projects at publishers often do NOT play games, they do not even *like* games, many of them would be just as happy running factories making washing machines. So they look at pictures and pick the prettiest ones. It's the same in hollywood. the film can be shit, but if its about terrorism and has bruce willis in then IT MUST BE GREAT RIGHT?
It's all very very sad.

That's pretty funny and probably a little true. Certainly you've worked in the real games industry more than I have. I bet some of them think they like games. Plus I think the fact that they are in a large organization working with other hairless apes all day causes a lot of this. Group think, sub group competition, destructive organizational culture, and all the other pitfalls of humans working together contribute to the pageant that is the games industry (or any industry). But just as democracy is the worst form of government besides all the others that have been tried, if you want to make that thing known as the AAA game then you have to organize and somebody has to lead.

[andrew]

only in PC gaming does this bullshit persist that quality == production cost.

This I agree with... (although arguably not in the Flash/web realm)


The truth is that the people who 'greenlight' projects at publishers often do NOT play games, they do not even *like* games, many of them would be just as happy running factories making washing machines. So they look at pictures and pick the prettiest ones. It's the same in hollywood. the film can be shit, but if its about terrorism and has bruce willis in then IT MUST BE GREAT RIGHT?
It's all very very sad.

This I don't agree with... I've talked to many of the PM's who are in charge of greenlighting (when I was working there as a dev), they are generally smart and love games. Most of them have maxed-out characters in WOW. They understand what makes a game fun, and many of them are ex-designers. The thing is, there is just a certain production bar which has to be met. It is not in their interest to publish fun games which don't have a high level of graphical and audio polish, specificially when they're trying to position their console as a next-generation machine. XBLA has a lower standard, but it's moving up steadily as they get more and more AAA dev teams making games for it.

I actually think you would have a chance to get Kudos / Democracy on XBLA, as they are short on sim games (I remember this specifically mentioned), and you can show them that you have had success on the PC. Also, having a fully functional product demo scores you extra points in their greenlight process.

[gosub]

I'd be very happy to see Kudos or KRL on XBLA, but it would never happen
Cliffski,

Why don't you pitch your game to Microsoft. You won't know for sure until you do. Here's a link to get you started: http://forums.xna.com/thread/16411.aspx

-Jeremy

[cyrus_zuo]

This I don't agree with... I've talked to many of the PM's who are in charge of greenlighting (when I was working there as a dev), they are generally smart and love games. Most of them have maxed-out characters in WOW. They understand what makes a game fun, and many of them are ex-designers. The thing is, there is just a certain production bar which has to be met. It is not in their interest to publish fun games which don't have a high level of graphical and audio polish, specificially when they're trying to position their console as a next-generation machine. XBLA has a lower standard, but it's moving up steadily as they get more and more AAA dev teams making games for it.

I actually think you would have a chance to get Kudos / Democracy on XBLA, as they are short on sim games (I remember this specifically mentioned), and you can show them that you have had success on the PC. Also, having a fully functional product demo scores you extra points in their greenlight process.

Agreed and agreed :)

[soniCron]

Most of them have maxed-out characters in WOW. They understand what makes a game fun... So, then, why are they playing WoW? ;)

[cliffski]

kudos maybe, but democracy wouldn't get it past the senior management types. it would be like the fictional united nations tv series in studio 60, it *sounds dull*, even though it isn't :D. Are there any turn based games on XBLA? I can see turn based being an instant turn off, not for the gamers, but for the microsoft guys.

[Adrian Cummings]

Good thread this - but sounds like the door is closing fast if not already for most of us here regards all this then.

8K this, 10K that and 25K somewhere else - they're all living in la la land and it's a bloody disgrace not to mention rip off for most indies!

Wiiware offers 'some' hope to true indies I guess - but I also doubt it down the line when it comes to pass :P

Mobile is getting to be real tough too, so it just PC and MAC left really - there you have it.

Oh well... upwards and onwards and march on through the gloomy mist of indie development into the unknown :)

Happy weekend!

[mot]

I hope that sooner or later something like the GP2X comes to the big console world. Smaller market, of course, but also completely open to indie development.

Affordable and well designed hardware, MAME, Steam-like marketplace with low and well defined barrier of entry, OpenGL, OpenAL, Java support, ohh.

Closest we have now is the Mac, indeed.

[cliffski]

from http://www.microsoftcasualgames.msn.com/developers_xla.htm


The secondary/tertiary gamers in the household are wives, girlfriends, kids, and parents. The games that appeal to them are games they can experience alongside the core user (co-op).


wow. women are inferior and incapable of playing alone. I am lost for words.

[luggage]

kudos maybe, but democracy wouldn't get it past the senior management types. it would be like the fictional united nations tv series in studio 60, it *sounds dull*, even though it isn't :D. Are there any turn based games on XBLA? I can see turn based being an instant turn off, not for the gamers, but for the microsoft guys.Worms, Catan, Band of Bugs, Uno, Carcassonne, Bankshot Billiards, Hardwood Hearts, Backgammon, Spades, Texas Hold Em, Spyglass Board Games.

[sillytuna]

Cliffski - I both agree and disagree with you. Yes, I do indeed have a split personality.

Many of the people I deal with know way more about games than I do. However, when it comes to the actual product approval meetings other people get involved, and that's where the situation gets more complicated and extremely frustrating. This year I've had one product get more yes/no answers from the same company than you'd believe.

This is the case at publishers, distributors, and platform holders.

When it comes down to it, they want the best chance to recoup their investment - whether it's direct (publishers) or indirect (platform holders). So they do what happens in media across the world and they follow rather than lead.

This is an absolute generalisation of course, and there are numerous examples of where this isn't true, but for the most part these are from the platform holders themselves (ironically). Not always though.

It's too easy to let industry bitterness get the better of you and forget that most people are actually totally into what they're doing.

RANT ON

That's the biggest reason why I hate one of the the indie vs mainstream arguments - I find in many ways it's a "why we're better than you" moral highground argument which is total bollocks, if you excuse my french.

We're all here to entertain, "indies" just get the opportunity to be more creative on a smaller scale. In most cases its awful stuff but well intentioned; in some cases it's wonderfully brilliant. The commercial world is generally less well intentioned, is better quality for users (QA, depth of content), but less imaginative (generally).

Yes I know we could argue the point for ages but...

...stuff the politics, we should all just get along and respect each other for what we do - create games.

RANT OFF

As regards comparing film/music with games - I don't think it's a fair comparison. Games can be developed by only a couple of people, but the investment is far, far riskier. Music industry budgets are tiny now - unbelievably low, and many studios are going out of business. The TV world has a bigger and longer tail market than 95% of game projects simply don't have.

I'm involved in some non-game work and honestly, the tv/film/music industry is far worse than the game industry for idiots in control, nepotism, rip off merchants, distributors/agents/lawyers/managers taking all the cash, following the crowd, studio interference, etc, and that's despite the fact that the game industry is a far, far higher risk in most cases.

It's really not as bad as people think.

Sorry, I've really ranted, but I feel strongly about this.

[zoombapup]

And well Ranted too. Although I'm not entirely sure I followed your whole flow there :)

The main thing is to find partners who dont suck and then try and keep them sweet.

In all my commercial days, we flipped from one publisher to another, because they almost universally sucked. Having said that we did a lot of the time too (mainly in bad products or failed developments).

Its a big old bunch of pot-luck with ANY game development, so I think youre right, its a huge risk. But then, what in life thats worth doing hasnt got a huge risk involved?

I'm glad I'm in a more chilled out place than having to make a living working with a lot of these idiots we talk about though. If at some point I make a hit game and someone offers me a great deal, I'll take it if it makes sense, but I dont expect that kind of thing to happen. It feels nice to chill about these things and just create.

[sillytuna]

And well Ranted too. Although I'm not entirely sure I followed your whole flow there :)

It was late and I'd been drinking ;)

[marshmonkey]

I'm glad I'm in a more chilled out place than having to make a living working with a lot of these idiots we talk about though. If at some point I make a hit game and someone offers me a great deal, I'll take it if it makes sense, but I dont expect that kind of thing to happen. It feels nice to chill about these things and just create.

my thoughts exactly!

[electronicStar]

Yeah it must not be really interesting to start working on a game and invest some thousands of $$$ upfront and not even be sure that your game will be certified or picked up.
It's not really accessible to most indie devs.

[Dan MacDonald]

No matter what, seems like everyones gotta reason why it can't be done.. whatever "it" happens to be at the time.

[Adrian Cummings]

Indeed, but it is a lot of money to part with up front and therefore does not form the best part of a business plan I've ever seen when trying to run a small business.

Devkits and thier associated charges are rip offs for any major platform and thus are intended to keep the smaller guy out of the equation.

[zoombapup]

Dan: I dont think its a case of "cant be done" its more a case of "Dont make this your only goal".

Fact is, its a lot harder than it was originally, probably too hard for a lot of companies/individuals, which means if youre realistic, you should aim for something else and target XBLA as an added value.

Unless MS does the unthinkable and opens a developer oriented marketplace for the XNA Pro stuff.