Dropping Out

[Tycho]

Alright, I've been looking through the net after googling "dropping out of college" and it brought me to this site.

First, some context. I'm 19 and in my first semester as a sophmore at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Once again, I'm on the razor's edge of flunking out of the school.

In my first semester as a freshman, I was in this same situation. I got terrified, and worked my ass off, and somehow managed to pass enough classes to stay in school. This time, I'm seriously wondering if it's worth the effort.

I've been shooting for a comp sci/comp sys engineering major, but none of my classes interest me. It feels as though I"m just doing a lot of pointless shit-shoveling, a la high school.

In my second year of high school I began considering game design as a possible career field. I got some books on C++, downloaded a couple of game making programs so I could focus on more of the design and less of the programming, and took AP Comp Sci I the following year. I got a 5 on the exam, and I loved the class.

Fast-forward to the present: I've failed far too many courses, passed Comp Sci II with a B, dropped Data Structures and Algorithms because the whole "running time of x algorithm" bored me to tears. I'm no longer sure what to make of anything. What sort of world is there beyond college? I've lived such a sheltered life it's tragic.

My core question is, "Is there life after dropping out?"

I've always loved game design, but I don't know how I'd go about setting foot in the field if I dropped/flunked out of college this semester. Any and all advice would be welcomed.

[Raptisoft]

If you're optimistic enough, energetic enough, and talented enough to go it alone, dropping out is probably okay. Otherwise, slog it through.

Most companies don't care what your talents are, how smart you are, etc: they want to know you can FINISH something, and college is their litmus test.

If you drop out, you will work just as hard, and have just as many ups and downs as if you stayed in. Just in a different direction, and perhaps more interesting to you. That makes the ups higher and the downs lower. Some people don't survive the downs.

I dropped out. I don't really regret it, but you WILL WORK HARDER than the 4-years of busy-work in college. Don't drop out unless you have a real PASSION for games-- do you write them in your sleep? If you had the choice of a year in Tahiti surrounded by agreeable women of loose virtue, or a year completely uninterrupted to write a game solo, which would you choose? If you picked Tahiti, don't drop out.

Also, if you've NEVER finished a game on your own-- not even some little "dot chomper" or "space attackers" thing done when you were a kid, don't drop out.

[mahlzeit]

School is about certification, not education. :)

You can learn most stuff much faster on your own because your studies will be directed towards your own goals, not to satisfy some general purpose requirements. You will likely be much more motivated in the first place (no homework!).

On the other hand, if you want to do stuff in life that requires you to have that little certificate, you have no choice but to ride it out. (Or drop out, see the world, and possibly go back to college when you're more motivated.)

[Reactor]

If you had the choice of a year in Tahiti surrounded by agreeable women of loose virtue, or a year completely uninterrupted to write a game solo, which would you choose? If you picked Tahiti, don't drop out.

LOL

Well said. Tycho, I'd personally push though and finish what's ahead of you, even if you're doomed to fail. I pretty much scraped through high school (because I found it so boring, I really didn't try) but I still believe it's worth pushing through. Why? Because life is filled with boring moments, and difficult challenges that don't appeal to you (even in game development!) and taking on school as best you can helps develop your character for those future situations. Maybe that sounds cheesy, but hey... more that often it's the case. Sometimes it's good to seperate yourself from the pack, but schooling (at least high school) is an important step to work through, I believe.

[tolik]

Reading your depressive post and understanding your mood...
Don't drop out. All of the doors will be closed for you unless you'll be working your ass off for the next couple of years.

[GBGames]

Anyone else find it interesting that googling for "dropping out of college" brings you here? B-)

I am currently going for my master's degree in computer science. Yes there were B.S. courses now and when I went for my undergrad, but there are also good things to learn.

For one, if you focus exclusively on your major, you'll miss out on liberal arts. I have a far greater appreciation and understanding of politics, public speaking, art, religion, and language. While this may all seem like crap if you don't care, it still impacts you.

And with Data Structures and Algorithms, knowing the running time of something is important. You may find yourself trying to solve a problem efficiently for way longer than you should have because you never thought to check if it was a problem that is considered NP-complete (in other words, so hard that years and years of research hasn't resulted in any NP-complete problem being proved or disproved to be solvable in polynomial, or fast, time).

Consider college a challenge. At the end, the worst you have is a degree that will be the foot in the door that may get you a decent job.

Why am I going through grad school? I decided in high school, way back before I knew I wanted to have my own business, that since everyone and their mother is going to college, I need to remain competitive, so I'm going the next step up. Now that I want my own business, getting a degree isn't going to help me hire myself. So why do it? Because I don't know what will happen. What if I hit hard times and need to subsidize myself with stable income? Business opportunities may present themselves. The only downside is that it takes a couple of years, but I think the investment of my time is worth it.

So ask yourself if the investment of time is worth it. What do you see yourself doing? Why would dropping out do more to help you than otherwise? And really understand what dropping out means. As pointed out already, dropping out is a warning flag to employers. You really have to shine to stand out to them, and judging only by your post, it doesn't seem like you have much to your credit in terms of skills, motivation, or commitment. Dropping out will only justify that.

My advice would be to stay with it. Prove to yourself that you can finish something. When you take a class, ask your professors questions at the beginning of the semester. If your school is like mine, you're encouraged to talk to progessors. Ask them why they think that the class is important. Ask for clarification if you only have a slight sense of what they mean. Why the emphasis on the running time of an algorithm? Why the need to discuss the concept and theories of programming languages? Don't ask questions like "What's the point?" because that's just defeatist and only serves to justify dropping out. I don't think you really want to drop out, but instead you're looking for justification because it seems easier than to stick with it.

Again, this is all based on just what you posted, so please don't take offense if I misread you. But be honest with yourself, and ask if you really want to drop out for good reasons or if you're just looking for someone to tell you that it is ok to fail.

[Chaster]

A couple questions:

1) Do you know EXACTLY WHY you are failing your courses? Is it because you find them "boring"? If that's the case, watch out - much of "real life work" is "boring stuff" - and you can't just "skip it". People who do that get fired.

2) College is a lot more than classwork - per se. One of the unsaid reasons companies look for a college degree is because they know that people GROW UP a lot by sticking through college. One of the hardest things to teach is persistence and work ethic. Getting through college doesn't give you a mature sense of work ethic, but it gives you a start. <Smart> companies know this. People also tend to expand their horizons through interaction with people who are smarter and/or more worldly than they are (in college). This exposure to other viewpoints & subsequent revelation of one's own previously unknown weaknesses/failings inevitably produces a stronger, more well rounded person. College is one of THE BEST places to gain this kind of unique experience. Not saying you can't get it in other places, but it's pretty hard to do so... You're not going to get this working at Walmart...

As others have mentioned - working in a game company (or any other professional company for that matter) is often harder than college work - if you can't/won't finish college, then a lot of companies will assume you won't be able to finish your work (when the going gets tough - which it REALLY does in the game industry... Look at the thread about EA..)

Really, it comes down to 2 things: Finish what you started, or don't. Even if you finish poorly, you are better off finishing - IMHO.

As both an employee and an employer, I can say that 99% of people with college degrees are better equipped for it - whether they realize it or not.

Good luck with whatever path you choose!

Chaster

[GBGames]

Chaster: I agree. I always forget that besides what I've learned in the classes in college, I've grown quite a bit from what I was in high school. By the time I finished, I had a greater appreciation of people who were different, people who were knowledgeable, and life in general.

Being well-rounded is one of the reasons why I am glad that I majored in computer science rather than game development (my university plans on offering a degree soon, and I probably would have gone into that originally if they offered it years ago).

It can be argued that if you can't do things well, don't do them at all, but I have to agree with Chaster here. Finish what you start, even if you do so badly. Finishing college badly still puts you above those who didn't finish at all. Finishing a game badly still puts you into a position of being able to do better, which is a better position to be in than not having finished a game.

[merovingian]

Alright, I've been looking through the net after googling "dropping out of college" and it brought me to this site.

First, some context. I'm 19 and in my first semester as a sophmore at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Once again, I'm on the razor's edge of flunking out of the school.

In my first semester as a freshman, I was in this same situation. I got terrified, and worked my ass off, and somehow managed to pass enough classes to stay in school. This time, I'm seriously wondering if it's worth the effort.

I've been shooting for a comp sci/comp sys engineering major, but none of my classes interest me. It feels as though I"m just doing a lot of pointless shit-shoveling, a la high school.

In my second year of high school I began considering game design as a possible career field. I got some books on C++, downloaded a couple of game making programs so I could focus on more of the design and less of the programming, and took AP Comp Sci I the following year. I got a 5 on the exam, and I loved the class.

Fast-forward to the present: I've failed far too many courses, passed Comp Sci II with a B, dropped Data Structures and Algorithms because the whole "running time of x algorithm" bored me to tears. I'm no longer sure what to make of anything. What sort of world is there beyond college? I've lived such a sheltered life it's tragic.

My core question is, "Is there life after dropping out?"

I've always loved game design, but I don't know how I'd go about setting foot in the field if I dropped/flunked out of college this semester. Any and all advice would be welcomed.

I spent a year at RPI - what a depressing place. No women and the Troylets made walking to one's car at night oh so special an experience. So unless you're a gay Jet Li , transfer someplace else cheaper and prettier, take a bunch of math and comp sci courses, and coast through on the rest of it.

Hell, HVCC isn't too far from there, it's way cheaper, and you'll have a pile of free time. There's no point in an RPI degree if you're not heading for academia or a hardcore tech job.

Oh yeah - get some exercise - you'll thank yourself down the road for doing so.

[Anthony Flack]

If you had the choice of a year in Tahiti surrounded by agreeable women of loose virtue, or a year completely uninterrupted to write a game solo, which would you choose? If you picked Tahiti, don't drop out.


Oh man, a whole year completely uninterrupted. That would be SO SWEET.

[simonh]

Finish your studies. Put everything into it, and forget about games.

Then once you've got your studies out the way, reconsider your options. And there will be a lot more options than there is right now.

And as for your depression, you can overcome that :) Read books about it, change your diet, do everything you can :)

[GBGames]

Oh yeah - get some exercise - you'll thank yourself down the road for doing so.

I've notice a few people here have changed diet and scheduled time for exercise. I've read that it gives you more energy. I haven't really been putting an emphasis on exercise when it comes to my regular schedule. Not to hijack the post, but to ask for advice myself, should I start valuing exercise more?

[FlySim]

If you had the choice of a year in Tahiti surrounded by agreeable women of loose virtue, or a year completely uninterrupted to write a game solo, which would you choose? If you picked Tahiti, don't drop out.

Damn, I flunked game creators test. :D

[Tycho]

Thanks for the help. Yeah, I'm going to do everything I can to stay here, I was just at a rather low point at the time I wrote this (hmmm, a few hours ago >.> ).


I spent a year at RPI - what a depressing place. No women and the Troylets made walking to one's car at night oh so special an experience. So unless you're a gay Jet Li , transfer someplace else cheaper and prettier, take a bunch of math and comp sci courses, and coast through on the rest of it.

Hell, HVCC isn't too far from there, it's way cheaper, and you'll have a pile of free time. There's no point in an RPI degree if you're not heading for academia or a hardcore tech job.

Oh yeah - get some exercise - you'll thank yourself down the road for doing so.

Nice to know someone familiar with RPI. Yeah, you summed it up nicely. No girls, and Troy is a shithole, to put it nicely. Life = dorm. Now my remaining question is whether or not to stick it out HERE, since RPI > all (at least as far as marketability), or to transfer to HVCC or the like.

[dan]

Dunno about your personal situation.

From your post, you dislike where you're at and what you're doing. The vague promise of "better things" for completing school provides insufficient motivation. I have a difficult time seeing your situation getting better. If it's been this bad with less than 2 years in, how are you going to feel next year? The year after?

Life is too short to spend years doing stuff you hate for a certificate.

Not saying you should drop out. But it's high time you stopped the whole "sheltered kid" thing. If you want to get a job in the games industry, you should pursue that on your own. Your education is in your hands, not the school's. There are places like Gamasutra on the web where you can find out what sorts of skills are in demand.

And stop taking a bunch of courses you're not interested in. You're wasting everyone's time. Growing up means taking control.

[Matthew]

In my opinion, the point of college is to prove to the world that you completed all this crap. And completed it even though it was difficult, and at times you didn't really want to. But you got it all done. And, honestly, that's really important. It's an easy way to show you know how to get something all the to 100% complete.

I never finished college, myself. I didn't really drop out as much as taper off to nothing--one semester I was taking just the game-related classes, and the next just one class, and the next just hanging out with my friends and classmates and working on their projects without actually being enrolled. I'm not really sure how much credits I even need to graduate. I do regret it, too, especially becaues it closes the door on teaching positions at local game schools.

In conclusion, stick with it. You'll be glad you did. It's not the end of the world if you don't, either, but try your best to stay in the trenches all the way to that degree.

[Rainer Deyke]

The best decision I made in my life was dropping out of high school. The worst mistake I made in my life was not dropping out of high school earlier. YMMV.

[BlueSky]

I almost failed CS as well. I must tell you that sticking with it was the best thing I ever did and I shudder to think of where I would be had I failed. Having that degree will catapult you into a salary range/career that is far beyond what you are likely to get otherwise.

After being in the game industry for 15+ years I can tell you that there is a noticable difference between people with a CS degree and those without. There is a depth of knowledge/experience that college gives you. You may think that algorithm analysis is boring, or that math is useless but those foundations will start paying big dividends in the future. I had the same feelings about those topics as I went through school. All I wanted to do was make games. Now looking back I wish I had learned *more* math, *more* theory because I see now how important those things are.

My advice to you is do everything in your power to finish college with a CS degree. Once you have a degree you can do what ever you want with your life. Do not consider quitting an option, its a terrible precedent to set so early in your life.

[merovingian]

I've notice a few people here have changed diet and scheduled time for exercise. I've read that it gives you more energy. I haven't really been putting an emphasis on exercise when it comes to my regular schedule. Not to hijack the post, but to ask for advice myself, should I start valuing exercise more?

Yes, you should! Everything is free until you hit 35 or so and then the warranty on your body parts expires and the quality of the rest of your life is entirely up to you and your choices. In my case, when I was 22, I owned an Atari ST (stay with me here). My first love left me for an Amiga owner in great shape. Right before the breakup, I told her I was starting to exercise - she laughed in my face. That was enough inspiration for me to hit the gym forevermore.

I''m nearing 40 now and my blood pressure is 90/60, my cholestrol is 100 or so, and I can stay awake for 2 days straight when I need to do so (and I really try not to). I attribute all of the above to exercise and diet. My ancestors mostly died young so I'm playing against genetics and those genetics have already rolled me a few snake eyes to overcome over the past decade.

So just start slow, try walking a mile or so a day and do some light stretching and weight-lifting. You don't need anything fancy. Get an Exercise for Dummies book if you're stymied about where to begin and come up with your own thing. You won't regret it. Just don't go gung-ho from the get-go or you'll likely burn out and then decide it's too much work.

[dan]

Well, if you were an Atari ST guy, you can't really blame her when an Amiga man becomes available. ;)

[carl]

I've always loved game design, but I don't know how I'd go about setting foot in the field if I dropped/flunked out of college this semester. Any and all advice would be welcomed.

Where do you see yourself in five years?

Are you working for a game company? That means your resume had to grab their attention enough to pick up the phone and call you to come in. It stood out in a pile of hundreds of resumes just like yours. What attracted their attention? What prevented your resume from being thrown in the trash by the well meaning HR person who doesn't really understand what it takes to make a game?

Are you an entrepreneur setting out on the tough path to building the next EA/Blizzard/Microsoft...? What do you need to learn in the next five years in order to run your own company? Who do you have to meet? What else do you have to accomplish?

Are you flipping burgers and writing games in your spare time? What would you have to do to get a job at the local fast food restaurant?

There are a lot of successful people without degrees. There are a lot of successful people with degrees. Life will go on either way.

You're looking to make a decision that will have long term implications. My advice would be to decide where you want to be before you decide what you should do to get there.

[Chaster]

Damn, I flunked game creators test. :D

Me too, and I'm married... :eek: :o

[merovingian]

Well, if you were an Atari ST guy, you can't really blame her when an Amiga man becomes available. ;)

Bah, we won in the end... You guys died first...

Atari Atari uber alles!

[Raptisoft]

In my case, when I was 22, I owned an Atari ST (stay with me here). My first love left me for an Amiga owner in great shape. Right before the breakup, I told her I was starting to exercise - she laughed in my face. That was enough inspiration for me to hit the gym forevermore.

Excuse me, I believe you left out the ending where you went to visit her in her trailer-park home in Outer Letdown Heights, and you met her toothless, 300 pound husband out back, bringing home the possum dinner. Inside, of course, they still have the Amiga as their primary computer.

[Jim Buck]

I didn't read the whole thread but wanted to respond about RPI vs. HVCC vs. another choice - SUNYA. I don't know if the prices drastically changed since I was there (89-95), but SUNYA is a pretty decent and very affordable place to go.

[Curiosoft]

There are two types of learners in this world...
1) The Self Learner (self-taught, self-driven, etc.)
2) The Institutionalized Learner (someone that can only learn through classes and schools and exams created by other people)

The progress of humanity has been due to only one of these types.

Reading your stuff, I would not recommend dropping out. A wise man once said...
"If you don't have a passion, you better have a degree."

Drop out only if you aspire to make a difference. If you don't have a strong burning desire, then stay in school! Sure, the leaders of this industry (and most other competitive industries) are dropouts. Sure, John Carmack (maker of Doom and Quake) and Will Wright (maker of SimCity and The Sims) are dropouts, but they had a very strong desire to succeed. They had a burning desire for games. Most people don't have this, so most people have to go to school.

There is a huge need for folks to work at the big companies doing very focused and non-glamorous work. Places like EA need folks to handle their huge games (like Madden); they need graduates. They give you the opportunity to have a decent job without having to go through the struggles associated with pursuing your passion. The degree shows them you are obedient enough to do their grunt work. So you get rewarded with decent pay and can focus your free time to pursue other leisures. A pretty good deal, IMHO.

In this day and age, I think it's easier to stay in school than to dropout. You can always find some school willing to give you a degree. When I hear a person dropped out, then I take note cuz they must have some mad skillz.

Btw, Raptisoft...that is an awesome litmus test. I would pass it...barely. But I think it's a great question to ensure my indie game desires keep burning strong. If I could hang out with my top 20 most-beautiful women list on an island and enjoy carnal pleasure without any of the drawbacks (stds, unwanted pregnancies, etc.)....then shoot....it would be a tough call. When I was younger, I would have put coding above all else. Now I'm a little more lax about coding. Maybe it's time to get more hardcore again.

I'm going to ask myself this question everyday. Thanks for the tip :)

[20thCenturyBoy]

Comp Sci is one tough degree. I took it in '86-'89 and I bet it hasn't changed much since then. Programming was a tiny part of it, the majority was theory, maths, logic etc. I found it deadly dull but I managed to stick through it and scraped the lowest level of degree (one above a fail). My last year was hopeless, I didn't complete my project and didn't even turn up for my project presentation. Like you I had led a pretty sheltered life.

The thing is, it doesn't matter what grade of degree you get, what matters is that you complete it. Ok, it does matter if you want to work for Arthur Anderson but the majority of jobs do not require a 1st-class egg head. The fact that you can complete a 3 or 4 year degree says a lot about someone, it says you're not a quitter, and employers like that.

OTOH...remember you can still do a degree in later life, when perhaps you know what it is that you really want to study and you are more mature.

It's actually pretty hard to fail a degree if you stay the course. I skipped loads of lectures (9am ones, pah!) and turned up for the exams to scribble some nonsense, didn't do my project, and still passed (just). But having the letters BSc on my resume got me work quickly. I've never had a programming job though, so the content of my degree was pretty irrelevant for work life.
All my gaming stuff is done in my spare time and I have had to "re-learn" loads of stuff because I didn't do any programming for about 6 years! But at least now I can afford the books :-)

If you are genuinely, severely unhappy about your course, to the extent that it is making you ill, then you should first off see the campus doctor and explain the situation. Also talk to your "officer" or whatever they're called these days, they are sure to have some advice. Some people are just not wired for 3 years of study, there's nothing to be ashamed of.

[merovingian]

There are two types of learners in this world...
1) The Self Learner (self-taught, self-driven, etc.)
2) The Institutionalized Learner (someone that can only learn through classes and schools and exams created by other people)

The progress of humanity has been due to only one of these types.


There are two types of people in this world:

1) Those who believe there are only two types of everything
2) Those who disagree with #1.

Sometimes you just need a good teacher. Not all the time or even most of the time, but, to the point, the occasional course in math or data structures can make a real difference. I came into college with the self-taught ability to go head-to-head with seniors in comp sci. As a result, I majored in biology (I had this crazy idea that biology mixed with comp sci would one day be a new field) to avoid the boredom of introductory comp sci, took the last year or so of comp sci and math courses as electives, blew their grading curves to hell (and I was hated for that, but since they all graduated shortly thereafter, not for long), and greatly improved my understanding of structured programming and high-level math.

All of that was useful in due time. But I wouldn't have been able to do that had I not taught myself to code starting at the age of 10 or so. Ala carte coursework is fun. Getting the degree is what's boring.

But on an unrelated note, I'd definitely spend a year with the women. You only live once. And I've already poured years into indie development since long before it became fashionable. There's always time to write more games whereas youth and virility are ultimately fleeting.

[Curiosoft]

There are two types of people in this world:

1) Those who believe there are only two types of everything
2) Those who disagree with #1.

Sometimes you just need a good teacher.


Not a good teacher, but a good mentor. Or a good *partner*. I agree with needing a good mentor or partner as I have grown so much by working in teams with other people.



But on an unrelated note, I'd definitely spend a year with the women. You only live once. And I've already poured years into indie development since long before it became fashionable. There's always time to write more games whereas youth and virility are ultimately fleeting.

Yeah, you are so right about this. This is something I'm beginning to "regret". As you start seeing properties of aging on your body, you being to realize that youth is fleeting. This realization has lead me to two conclusions:
1) Life is too short to do crap you hate
2) Make the most of every moment (including women, etc).

Of course, you don't need to go to college to get women. You can live near a college ;) Have all the fun without all the classroom headaches :)

Later,
Curiosoft

[HairyTroll]

There are two types of learners in this world...
1) The Self Learner (self-taught, self-driven, etc.)
2) The Institutionalized Learner (someone that can only learn through classes and schools and exams created by other people)

The progress of humanity has been due to only one of these types.

Drop out only if you aspire to make a difference. If you don't have a strong burning desire, then stay in school!


I'm not sure I understand your thought process:
a) Are you saying that the only people to push forward humanity have been college dropouts ?
b) Or are you saying that the only people who have pushed forward humanity are those people that are (1) and who may either stay in school or drop out?

I would agree with (b). I would disagree with (a).

[HairyTroll]

There are two types of people in this world:

1) Those who believe there are only two types of everything
2) Those who disagree with #1.


There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

And it is available on a T-Shirt too: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/frustrations/5aa9/

[dan]

But on an unrelated note, I'd definitely spend a year with the women. You only live once. And I've already poured years into indie development since long before it became fashionable. There's always time to write more games whereas youth and virility are ultimately fleeting.

No duh. That test is ludicrous. Not saying it's an art form, but game making is a creative endeavor. Life experiences can be critical for creativity. People get inspired by all sorts of things.

If you wanted to be a great writer, shutting yourself in a room and seldom having outside experiences from age 18 on? That's a good way of ensuring that you'll never have much of interest to say. You get a year with exotic women in Tahiti? Man... the memories alone would get me through hours of coding....

[GBGames]

My current project was going to be about spending a year on an island with agreeable women of loose virtue. Now everyone has been inspired by that idea.

[merovingian]

There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

And it is available on a T-Shirt too: http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/frustrations/5aa9/

And it's pretty hot on a babydoll T-shirt worn over your girlfriend's tight bosom...

[Sirrus]

And it's pretty hot on a babydoll T-shirt worn over your girlfriend's tight bosom...


Say, on someone like Stevie Case?
:D

[merovingian]

Say, on someone like Stevie Case?
:D

Actually no, I prefer the real thing to VR. Now Corrinne Yu, ahhhhhh...

[vidalsasoon]

The diploma says you are a hard worker and have some intelligence when it comes to solving useless problems. Currently I am in my second year of Comp.Sci and also working on some C# projects on the side to keep up to date.
I suggest you bite the bullet and do something similar if this field interests you.

[Curiosoft]

No duh. That test is ludicrous. Not saying it's an art form, but game making is a creative endeavor. Life experiences can be critical for creativity. People get inspired by all sorts of things.

If you wanted to be a great writer, shutting yourself in a room and seldom having outside experiences from age 18 on? That's a good way of ensuring that you'll never have much of interest to say. You get a year with exotic women in Tahiti? Man... the memories alone would get me through hours of coding....

Dan,

You have a great point. That's why the folks that major in writing very rarely write best-sellers...cuz they are spending all their time on writing structure rather than content.

Let's rephrase this. Humans have different needs...like exercise, relationships, work, etc. We then spend a certain amount of hours each week to fulfill each need.

The need to work takes up about 40-70 hours of a person's week. Would you spend the time fulfilling this need in passionate pursuit of game development ...or... on an island with super hot women of very loose virtue willing to feed you grapes and yield to your every whim...while licking their luscious lips..<slap>...must keep focus. Mmmmmmmmmmmm.

<returning from a cold shower>...

Is your desire strong enough to push through all challenges that get in the way of your work?

I think that's a better rephrase. But yeah, you are right. You need *experiences*. The more unique your experiences/observations...the more valuable you can be with creative work.

Later,
Curiosoft

[SimmerD]

I went through a similar experiance to RPI at Georgia Tech. Man that places has a depressing campus in downtown Atlanta, and like 7 : 1 guy to girl ratio. Plus, much of the student population goes back home on the weekend, leaving the campus even more forlorn.

I failed out of a computer science degree, and regret it only in a very abstract way, like having a degree is better than not, but I feel like completing my degree at where I was in my life wouldn't have helped me very much at that time.

Now, I have been doing games on my own & with friends since 1984, so the real challenge was getting me to finish a game, which I finally did in 1996. That got me my first game industry jobs, which led to my 6.5 year tenure at nvidia doing developer relations work with game companies from all over the world.

When I look to hire people for the devtech job, a completed independant game is 10x more interesting to me than a college degree. But, I suspect those people at larger developers that HAVEN'T done their own game probably value college 10x more...

[Michael_Le]

Wow this post almost mirrors mine 1.2 years ago at dexterity forums, I ended up staying in school, but still hate it somewhat.

I'll say this though, I'm not sure if I would've gotten the liberal education without going to University, discipline seems to be the hardest thing to do these days.

[Badman]

If you had the choice of a year in Tahiti surrounded by agreeable women of loose virtue, or a year completely uninterrupted to write a game solo, which would you choose? If you picked Tahiti, don't drop out.

Lordy. Reading that gave me the shivers. A year, uninterrupted...it's my favorite fantasy. Well, second favorite, next to "Square hires me to work on Final Fantasy XIII because they're making it more free-form and I'm the leading expert on free-form game programming".

[dfvdan]

My 0.02 Euro:
I think the days when a college education in itself is a guarantee for work is long gone. I live in Sweden, and while as a country we're less focused on education and more on achievement I do think my experience can be mirrored in other countries.

I went to college and studied towards a bachelors in comp science. I dropped out after one year and started my own company. I have friends and relatives who stuck with school.

Fast forward 5-10 years. I can honestly say that the factors that have decided success are not education. It's passion and networking.
Sure, you do need to show people that you're smart and capable of finishing things. A diploma is ONE way to show this.

Even if you do have a formal education, that education in itself becomes less important as you gain work experience. Recruiters will focus less on your education and more on recent positions/ventures.

In hindsight I regret dropping out, but not due to my current professional situation - I doubt I would be better off today with a formal education. I do however regret not taking the time to learn stuff I found boring then, but fascinating now. Isn't it ironic? :)

On the other hand, I can always go back to school and/or learn the interesting subjects on my own - for the right reasons this time. :)

So, in the end - only you can decide what's right for you. I do agree however that you can't simply drop out without a goal and passion. What you lack with a formal education you have to make up for with hard work and clever positioning! :)

Good luck!
Daniel

[Emmanuel]

I can tell you my own experience. I dropped out of college when I got the opportunity to work with the team that created a game called Ray Man (you may or may not remember it, it was a hit platform game on consoles and -to a lesser extent- on PC in the mid-1990's).

I was bored with college, didn't see the point of the difference between O(1) and O(log(n)), etc. algorithms at the time, either, and I figured that the opportunity would be worth college education.

I learned an incredible amount in a very short period of time, and my next moves made me reasonably successful in life (I've created a 50 people company in the embedded software space, and I'm happily married and father of twin girls).

However, looking back, the person I became today would not have dropped out of college. In the meantime, I've learned to know what my goals in life are, how to reach them, and not to experience life as a boring thing controlled by others, but as something exciting controlled by me.

Ironically, in the embedded field, O(1) algorithms are critically important. Having dropped out made me miss out on a lot of important notions that I learned later in business, at the expense of much more time and sometimes money.

Also, today, not completing a college course means you are someone who gives up. The others on the forum are right, it's a certification, a filter that you're motivated enough to finish things. And it's true: I wouldn't hire the person that I was at the time if I gave hiim a job interview !

In parallel to my business, I've started on a masters degree from home. I made time by displacing other things (like sleep), but it will help out. I get slowed down in my efforts once in a while, being a no-diploma person managing PhD.s and whatnot.

So, don't drop out ! Instead, try to define what your goal after college is, and how you can use your time in college to your best advantage. If there is any free education you can get now, with your tuition paid anyway, get it ! Later in life, when you're already working, it will be a pain to get it, and it will cost you a fortune, in courses, books, time or whatever.

Hang in there, and stay up at night to make sure you don't flunk out ! It's way too easy to drop out of things or let things happen so that you flunk out.
You sound like a smart individual, so it's a boredom issue and not an intelligence issue. Don't let the boredom waste your talent.

[GBGames]

About the free education: while you may not be getting your education for free (you may be paying your own way) , there are tons of resources that are now available to you as a student that aren't available to you otherwise.

For one, the school library has plenty of research materials. In fact, right now I am reading about 9 different books through this online resource that businesses (like my university) pay thousands for, and I'm doing this for free.

My university also has an entrepeneur center. I went there only once, when I was thinking about building PCs for people, and the people there helped me to analyze my business idea to realize that it would be a lot of hard work with little payoff (this was when I didn't realize that my time was worth more than the below minimum wage that the business would pay me).

Discounts are sometimes available to students. Yes, you may be paying $20,000 a year for school, but if you get thousand dollar resources for free, and if you get discounts on software, on top of getting that education, you'll do much better than someone who is mearly going to college and graduating.

But part of it is motivation. Why should you do research outside of class? Why do you care about getting software at a discount? Set your goals and see if your college can provide the resources to help you achieve your goals.

[Abscissa]

The best decision I made in my life was dropping out of high school. The worst mistake I made in my life was not dropping out of high school earlier. YMMV.

I totally understand. I did end up finishing high school (I even had the drive, motivation, and determination to complete a game for a few budget packs while I was there), but I consider going to college my biggest mistake ever. Four years of my life and nearly $100,000 (in loans) all down the tubes. And for what? Disillusionment, an unpayable debt and a stress-induced stomach condition. People have said that you get out of it what you put into it. I agree there's a correlation, but it's been my experience (at three completely different schools) that what you get out of it is a miniscule fraction of what you put in.

It's rare to come across other people that see it the same way. :)

[Emmanuel]

I consider going to college my biggest mistake ever. Four years of my life and nearly $100,000 (in loans) all down the tubes.

What was your motivation for getting into college? (parents, figuring out you can't get a job without a degree, or wanting to learn and use the degree for later in life, at least to some extent?)
:)

[Phil Newton]

I seriously considered dropping out last year, but I decided to stay on and finish the degree. I don't like university, but in the last year I've realised there's a lot of things here I should take advantage of. There's a business centre that hosts free seminars and social evenings. I also got lots of free Microsoft software, and discounts on plenty of other things.

It is a lot of work and I don't really like it, but I'm confident this year will give me everything I need for when I leave.

[Curiosoft]

I seriously considered dropping out last year, but I decided to stay on and finish the degree. I don't like university, but in the last year I've realised there's a lot of things here I should take advantage of. There's a business centre that hosts free seminars and social evenings. I also got lots of free Microsoft software, and discounts on plenty of other things.

It is a lot of work and I don't really like it, but I'm confident this year will give me everything I need for when I leave.

If you think that getting free software justifies staying in school, then you don't value your time. Is $200 in software worth 1 year of your life? I've got $200 that I'll give you. I'll only ask for 6 months of your life ;) While you are in school, be sure to read the following book...
1) Think and Grow Rich

I don't agree with your decision, but make the most of it. Skip classes and network with the smart folks. That will be worth more than your classes -- trust me.

Take care,
Curiosoft

A wise man once said...
You must be smart enough to get into school and wise enough to drop out ;)

[Phil Newton]

If you think that getting free software justifies staying in school, then you don't value your time. Is $200 in software worth 1 year of your life? I've got $200 that I'll give you. I'll only ask for 6 months of your life ;) While you are in school, be sure to read the following book...
1) Think and Grow Rich

I don't agree with your decision, but make the most of it. Skip classes and network with the smart folks. That will be worth more than your classes -- trust me.

Take care,
Curiosoft

A wise man once said...
You must be smart enough to get into school and wise enough to drop out ;)

Actually, the amount of free software is probably equal to my fees, but that's beside the point. It wasn't free software that made me stay on, I didn't even realise I'd get it until four weeks into the year. It's a benefit rather than a reason.

I do have better reasons for being at uni. I've already spent two years there, so to me it would be more of a waste if I didn't do the final year and get that piece of paper. I also want to prove to myself (and others - ie parents) that I am capable of this. Third, and probably most important reason, is that to get a US visa I will probably need a degree.

University isn't for everyone, and unfortunately my government gives out the impression that it is. When I left school it was the only thing I could really think to do, and a lot of people are given that impression. At least now I have found the business centre I can get some legal advice and network with local business people.

I must admit you have watered the seed of doubt that's been in my mind for some time, but I'm going to make sure I get the best out of this final year. I've come this far, so might as well finish the job :)

I will certainly take your advice on the book, and I'm always willing to take $200 too ;)

Cheers!

[MattInglot]

There's so much more to school than classes, as several people in this thread have already said. When you get involved and take advantage of the opportunities presented at school, class becomes a trivial detail for 3/4 of the term. Surprisingly it is also a lot easier to stay motivated and to get good grades when academics aren't the focus of your life, the result of being a happier person and having a more well-rounded life.

It's a lot easier to say this stuff than it is to believe it though and if you have been dumped in college straight out of highschool the last thing you want is another 4 years of work. If at all possible, take a year off and experience life outside of school, then make your decision. It's a very different world out there when you don't have classes and you'll learn a lot from doing this.

[BigZaphod]

My fiancee has an entirely different approach to college than I did. (I've been graduated now for a couple of years.) She gets involved in tons of things, has taken on several different classes in different majors and may finish with more than one disconnected major at the end of it. She loves school mostly (just not the tests so much ;)).

I, on the other hand, didn't much like it. There were aspects I liked, but overall, I found it annoying. I went in knowing exactly what I was going in for--computer science. And I also did not live on campus (rather instead I was something like 20 miles from campus). So I didn't take part in much of anything when it came to the college life. I was just there to get the degree. The classes, to me, were mostly a joke because I was in Computer Science and the school wasn't very in-depth about the actual science part of things. More like they were training you for the corporate world. It wasn't very interesting and I usually knew more about the topics than the professors did due to my varied and long background (been working and actually employed in the industry since I was 15). That isn't meant to sound arrogant. It is just the truth of the situation.

So my view on school wasn't very good. Then I met my (now) fiancee and got to know how she is doing it. The attitude is entirely different. And it makes me regret the approach I took. If I would have known or believed it I would have gone to a bigger school. I would have lived there. And I would have found a way to get by on a cheap do-nothing job instead of having to run from class to work at the office and back to class again leaving no time for anything else.

I think that, in many ways, if you are good at what you do (especially in computer science) you should either go to a school well known for being very high-end in your desired major (so that they can challenge you), or take on a major or two in areas you would normally never consider. I'm not sure which path I would take if I could do it all over again, but that's what I would say. Rather than drop out, change schools, change majors, live the life. Often I wish I had.

[Bluecat]

Going to college or uni will definetly make your life easier as well.

When I completed high school in 1982, I didn't go to university, I went to a technical college (TAFE) and studied for a certificate over two years part time. I managed to get a programming job while doing the certificate in 1984, and have been a programmer since then. Sounds good eh?

Well, here's the problem. During that twenty year career, I was retrenched three times, each during a tough economic period. In each unemployment, I was out of work for at least six months (the last time almost losing my house... man was that a stressful time in my life.) I applied for jobs like crazy, and got a handful of interviews even with fifteen years experience!

I was told on several occasions that the reason I was doing so poorly in the job hunt was that there were not many jobs going and that I did not have a degree and others did. Life would certainly been a bit easier if I did have that piece of paper.

[papillon]

... can I go back to school and forget about all this 'real world' stuff?

I don't know whether university was a good idea or a stupid mistake for me. I didn't have any other ideas at the time - EVERYONE in my circles went to university, it was just expected that's what you do with your life. Even if you immediately got married after that and never did anything else.

But what I actually got was a degree from a good school in a worthless subject and a pile of debt, and for most of the jobs I go after, having BEEN at university is more important than having GRADUATED.

But that's just because I'm a miserable failure. :)

[Abscissa]

There's so much more to school than classes, as several people in this thread have already said. When you get involved and take advantage of the opportunities presented at school, class becomes a trivial detail for 3/4 of the term. Surprisingly it is also a lot easier to stay motivated and to get good grades when academics aren't the focus of your life, the result of being a happier person and having a more well-rounded life.

I really don't get the people that say that. If you're at college then you'll flunk out very quickly if academics are not your primary focus. There's only so many hours in the day, and classes are full-time when you count the "two hours homework for every one hour lecture" rule that most teachers follow. Unless you're at one of the worthless places like Ohio State Univ., there's no time to get seriously involved in anything but classwork. And the idea of class becoming "a trivial detail" is nothing short of pure absurdity unless you intend to never graduate.

[GBGames]

I disagree. I am a member of my school's LUG, was secretary, had time for socializing, got involved in an organization or two, had LAN parties, read library books that had nothing to do with my classes, and I still pulled a very respectable GPA when I was graduated. Some classes are easier than others.

[20thCenturyBoy]

I really don't get the people that say that. If you're at college then you'll flunk out very quickly if academics are not your primary focus. There's only so many hours in the day, and classes are full-time when you count the "two hours homework for every one hour lecture" rule that most teachers follow.
This is nonsense. I personally know many people (inc myself) who were hopeless at the majority of classes, didn't attend many of them, and yet still survived three years and got their degree. Not a first class, not even an honours, but hey who's counting ;) I reckon I put in about 25% effort into the whole degree. I'm not proud of it, but I was 18 and hopelessly naive.

20thCB

[GBGames]

And there is nothing that says you can't put in total effort and still have a social life.

[yanuart]

well.. it's really sad if education somehow lost its appeal to some people. I think it's wrong.. the problem is people tend to be such a wise ass and say "this is no use for me" or "I can make this why should I learn about that".

I think the "When I look for people I see what they can do not their diploma" attitude is ... well.. is as wrong as saying "When I look for people I see their diploma not their experience".
I'm a computer lecturer at a uni and I'm also have experienced in profesional software development so I pretty know what I'm saying.
When I teach programming I always teach what matters.. I don't teach that u can use this lib, this function and rant about the whole class functionality.. I teach about good programming as much as I can.. believe me, I bet that probably 50% of comp science gradueates don't even know how to use OOP very well.

But on the other hand, I've been a technical director at one or two projects and one of my job is to find people.. you don't know how much it frustrate me to see these bad coders.. these bad coders bloat about how they can make this n that and some of them probably memorize the whole library function (this is a handy man.. if you find someone like this.. hire him).. but they are a bad coderss !!! their coding style is bad.. buggy.. unreusable.. cryptic !!!! and probably they never heard about software engineering.. you know why ?? because they learn coding the hard way.. and they stuck up with what they can and proud about it..

It's very hard to manage/tell a 19 yrs old (or someone with attitude close to) kid with a larger than life attitude and I don't want to bother to explain to him why he needed to create a "pure virtual" class for ex. This is probably one of the reason (others include stupid project supervisors, stupid management, idiot clients, etc) why they have to have crunch times all the time.

All I'm saying is.. yes, there's a lack of quality in education these days that makes you wanna scream but on the other hand.. look at the bright side.. going to school is an easy way to learn/study.. the hard way is called "LIFE".
I say.. if you stop college because you can endure the major u took or you can afford it.. you can always change major or try to take scholarship i know something will prevail. But if you stop college because you want to stop studying... well that's bad.. very bad

You go to school to be a "SMART" people with "KNOWLEDGE" or if you consider urself not smart you can always have "KNOWLEDGE" and I can see that there's nothing wrong with knowledge (making a bong it's not consider a knowledge)whatever that is.
The way you use your knowledge to the max.. well that's a different story.. nobody can teach you that.. or maybe those personal management instructor can :D

anyway good luck with your life..

[Rainer Deyke]

well.. it's really sad if education somehow lost its appeal to some people.

One comment on that - just because I want other people to try to educate me doesn't mean that I am opposed to learning. I dropped out of high school and never attended college, but I have a library card for the local university library and I use it regularily. Overall I consider myself far more well rounded than either of my two brothers who attended university.

[Abscissa]

well.. it's really sad if education somehow lost its appeal to some people. I think it's wrong.. the problem is people tend to be such a wise ass and say "this is no use for me" or "I can make this why should I learn about that".

I may have given off the impression in my previous posts of having lost interest in education, but that couldn't be further from the case. Truth be told, I love learning things, always have. I'm not really one of "I don't need to know this" students, particularly with CS. Normally, I'm the one backing up the teacher when they say "This really *is* important". It's not education that I have a problem with, but rather "formal education" that I find highy problematic. It's been my observations at basically every college and high school I've been to (which is quite a few, actually) that the "education" portion of "formal education" tends to be a joke. For lack of a better analogy, the "education" gets almost completely squeezed out by the "formal" and what's left is a self-perpetuating pile of inefficiency, ineptitude, and misplaced focus. Now, perhaps it's just Ohio's notably bad education funding, but I highly doubt it.


believe me, I bet that probably 50% of comp science gradueates don't even know how to use OOP very well.

I completely agree. Although, I would place that figure closer to 90%.


you don't know how much it frustrate me to see these bad coders.. these bad coders bloat about how they can make this n that and some of them probably memorize the whole library function (this is a handy man.. if you find someone like this.. hire him).. but they are a bad coderss !!! their coding style is bad.. buggy.. unreusable.. cryptic !!!! and probably they never heard about software engineering..

Well, I've been in a corporate IT job, and have been coding since I was little, and through all of that I can strongly relate to the frustration of having to deal with such obliviously inept developers. Sadly, a heck of a lot of the ones I've seen *did* have CS degrees - in fact, probably most. (And the CS grad students I've had to deal with are even worse. It makes me cringe just to think about it. Ick!)

[Abscissa]

And there is nothing that says you can't put in total effort and still have a social life.

I don't know what school you went to that it was that easy, but everywhere I've been the thing that says "you can't put in total effort and still have a social life" is: "There are twenty-four hours in a day". And unlike many other students I've known, I actually insist on getting a reasonable amount of sleep every night.

[GBGames]

Well, when I was an undergrad, I worked 25 hour weeks, went to four classes a quarter, hung out with friends, did homework, and was secretary of my school's LUG. Interestingly enough, I lost more sleep at the beginning of my undergrad career even though I wasn't nearly as involved. I credit time management for that feat. B-)

Oh, and I went to DePaul University. Read into that what you will.

[paulm]

It's hard to say whether to drop out or not; it really is a personal decision.

Contrary to the majority of people who've posted on this thread, my degree was a Bachelor of Visual Communication - illustration and graphic design, to the uninitiated. It is a three year course that I should've finished, however, it's taken me three years full-time and three years part-time to finish it.

I could've dropped out, but I pursued it because I needed to teach myself a lesson. Primary school was no challenge; I got a scholarship to my high school. The only thing that challenged me was Art, because it required me to use my hands, and I'm a lot sharper with my mind than with my hands. I've been drawing since I was a kid, so I was pretty distraught when I felt hopeless compared to my classmates. Maths subjects were my best, Art my worst.

I was dead set on doing a Software Engineering degree, when my best friend convinced me to join him doing Visual Communication (we went through primary school and high school together). I figured I could continue learning programming on my own in the meantime, but that Art would be a challenge.

Boy was it a challenge - I failed my second semester of first year Studio because I was too lazy to practice, after having to put in no effort for twelve years. Everyone said I had skill and a great sense of space, but I put no effort into my work. It was the beginning of seven years of frustration and eventual accomplishment.

After three years, I deferred my course, and all my relatives told me I would give up. I took offence to that, because I don't settle for second best. That made me want to complete my course, no matter how long it took. During that year off, I moved out and worked the welfare system for all it was worth, and then endured the next three years of education. During that time, I practiced and practiced doing what I really wanted to do (concept art) even though all my tutors and lecturers bagged it.

I've now finished my course; I get my piece of paper next year. It may have been painful, but for me, it's not about the piece of paper, it's knowing much how much I've changed from when I first started.

I got my first paid computer games gig with Void War characters earlier this year, and ever since then business has been getting better. I could've dropped out, but I would be nowhere near as disciplined as I've become if I hadn't.

Sometimes it makes sense to drop out - the system doesn't cater for all learning types. However, before you decide, you need to be honest with yourself and say, am I flunking because I'm unfocussed, or am I flunking because what I'm doing is only delaying my journey to where I want to be. If you have no idea where you want to be, don't drop out. If you have a clear idea of where you want to be, but haven't achieved it yet, then I would consider dropping out.

Good luck in your endeavours.

Cheers,
Paul.